Defining dispensationalism

[FreeinChrist]

FreeinChrist,

Is this salvation within the Levitical system (the requirement for which is faith), salvation by God's grace or by the works of the faithful, or by some other means?

msortwell

No, it is salvation by grace through faith. Works reflect the faith.

I beleive it is covenant theology that came up with the Covenant of works and a Covenant of grace.

But God always showed grace. It was grace that picked Abraham and descendents of Issac in the first place, grace that covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve (God took an animal skin to 'cover' them - required the death of an animal) , it was grace in that God forgave Israel over and over,...lots of grace in the OT.

I believe Covenant Theology forgets that a big part of the Old Covenant was this:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

 

[Iosias]

So to try and say it simply, saving faith was having faith in Jesus Christ...

This is what I do not understand...how can the OT saints be saved by faith in Christ?

 

[FreeinChrist]

They had faith in God, and in what God promised. They had saving faith, but actual salvation came at the cross.

 

[oworm]

This is what I do not understand...how can the OT saints be saved by faith in Christ?

Are you implying that OT saints were not saved by faith in Christ?

 

[msortwell]

No, it is salvation by grace through faith. Works reflect the faith.

I beleive it is covenant theology that came up with the Covenant of works and a Covenant of grace.

But God always showed grace. It was grace that picked Abraham and descendents of Issac in the first place, grace that covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve (God took an animal skin to 'cover' them - required the death of an animal) , it was grace in that God forgave Israel over and over,...lots of grace in the OT.

I believe Covenant Theology forgets that a big part of the Old Covenant was this:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

What aspect of the Levitical Dispensation are Covenant Theology folks forgetting? I see the text that you highlighted. What is identified within that text that you believe is the forgotten aspect of the "old covenant"?

msortwell

 

[msortwell]

AV1611,

I see in the Scriptures that the OT saints believed (had faith) that God would provide salvation by grace (that is, they knew it was not their due). They (including Abraham) believed the promises made in Genesis 3:15 and 15:1. They came to understand that it would be provided through His annointed one - His Christ.


Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(KJV)

Gen 15:1-6
1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.(KJV)

How does my understanding compare/contrast with the dispensational (classical, progressive, hyper, etc) view(s)?

By His Grace,

msortwell

 

[FreeinChrist]

What aspect of the Levitical Dispensation are Covenant Theology folks forgetting? I see the text that you highlighted. What is identified within that text that you believe is the forgotten aspect of the "old covenant"?

msortwell

With the idea that the Old Covenant is a covenant of works (not a dispensaationists view), it leaves out that the most important part of the whole covenant is that they love the Lord with all their heart, soul, and mind.

It was ALWAYS about the heart. And if you really love God, in the OT, you would have kept the law.

 

[msortwell]

FreeinChrist,

Are you saying that Abraham, Moses, David, and others, were under grace?

Covenant Theology (although not the focus of this thread) includes only the Adamic Covenant as a covenant of works involving men as participants. God the Father and God the Son entered into a covenant of works (as it were) when it was agreed within the Godhead that the Son would fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law, becoming the Second Adam. The Reformers understood that all other dispensations (from Abraham forward) are under the umbrella of a single over-arching covenant termed the covenant of grace.

It seems to me that with respect to its doctrine of soteriology, classical dispensationalism shares more with covenant theology that with what many would label "despenstationalism" today.

By His Grace,

msortwell

 

[FreeinChrist]

FreeinChrist,

Are you saying that Abraham, Moses, David, and others, were under grace?

I'm saying they were under "faith" and that God showed grace all along.
Even Adam was shown grace, and faith was required before Abraham.

Covenant Theology (although not the focus of this thread) includes only the Adamic Covenant as a covenant of works involving men as participants. God the Father and God the Son entered into a covenant of works (as it were) when it was agreed within the Godhead that the Son would fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law, becoming the Second Adam. The Reformers understood that all other dispensations (from Abraham forward) are under the umbrella of a single over-arching covenant termed the covenant of grace.

This actually does not go along with Dispensationism at all.

 

[msortwell]

Help me out FIC. Beyond seeing/affixing the label of a covenantal structure to the plan implemented by the Godhead in redeeming fallen man, what does not agree with dispensationalism "at all"?

You state that the OT saints were "under grace." Covenant Theology proponents consider that they are under a covenant of grace. You offer that OT saints have saving faith that God would provide salvation, despite the fact that they do not deserve it.

You have made several totally inaccurate observations regarding Covenant Theology. I fear that you may be drawing your conclusions based upon a false premise.

My point is . . . there are major aspects of God's historical redemption of sinful man about which dispensationalists and covenant theologians agree. The differences are also significant. We should understand and acknowedge, the differences, the similarities, and the deeper implications of each.

By His Grace,

msortwell

 

[oworm]

I see in the Scriptures that the OT saints believed (had faith) that God would provide salvation by grace (that is, they knew it was not their due). They (including Abraham) believed the promises made in Genesis 3:15 and 15:1. They came to understand that it would be provided through His annointed one - His Christ.

Indeed.......................... ALL salvation is in and through Christ. Its a matter of perspective. The OT saints "looked forward to the promise of a saviour and the NT saints including ourselves "Look back" to the finished work of that same saviour!

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Are you saying that Abraham, Moses, David, and others, were under grace?

Hi msortwell,
Yes, dispensationalists do believe that salvation by grace through faith does extend through all dispensations. The Mosaic Law was not designed to save or even "cover" all sins. We dispensationalists see the Law as a distinct covenant relationship between God and the people of Israel.

It seems to me that with respect to its doctrine of soteriology, classical dispensationalism shares more with covenant theology that with what many would label "despenstationalism" today.

Yes! Dispensational soteriology, contrary to Gerstner's claims in Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, is no different than any other standard Christian soteriology. There is no singular "dispensational soteriology" any more than there is a singular "5 point Calvinist" eschatology.

Dispensationalists recognize an overall plan of redemption, which in terms of Covenant Theology is called the "covenant of grace." Dispensationalists do not recognize what is called the "covenant of works." To we dispensationalists, a covenant is an explicit agreement recorded in Scripture between God and a human or group of humans.


Lamorak Des Galis