Israel Has No Place In Closing Events.

keras

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Well Grip, do you really think God should forgive and forget the sins of the Jews? Those people living in a small part of the holy Land today?

There are 20+ Prophesies that tell us what God does intend to do with them and they ain't pretty! Jeremiah 12:14 says the Lord will uproot Judah and Paul says that only a remnant will survive.
 
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Grip Docility

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Well Grip, do you really think God should forgive and forget the sins of the Jews? Those people living in a small part of the holy Land today?

There are 20+ Prophesies that tell us what God does intend to do with them and they ain't pretty! Jeremiah 12:14 says the Lord will uproot Judah and Paul says that only a remnant will survive.
Brother Keras, I Believe God can put whoever He pleases in His Book of Life, and Blot out the names of whomever He pleases. Though He Slay me, I will remain faithful of His goodness.

As Moses and Paul both were willing to stand in place of the VOID for the Jewish Bride, in willingness to exchange their very place in the book, for her, which we see validated by Jesus Christ doing that very thing for us... I will continue to look for every hope within scripture for all of Creation. When it all ends, I will exalt Him as Just, Righteous and True, knowing that my understanding is No-Thing, compared to His.

If stiff necked people that let God down all of the time have no salvational hope... I'm pretty sure that we are all in trouble.
 
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keras

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If stiff necked people that let God down all of the time have no salvational hope... I'm pretty sure that we are all in trouble.
WE Christian's do have a hope. It is in Gods Promise that whosoever believes in Him and accepts the Salvation offered to all by Jesus, will have Eternal life.
The Jews don't [generally] so, they are just the same as all the rest of the unbelievers. Destined for destruction. Romans 1:18
 
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Grip Docility

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WE Christian's do have a hope. It is in Gods Promise that whosoever believes in Him and accepts the Salvation offered to all by Jesus, will have Eternal life.
The Jews don't [generally] so, they are just the same as all the rest of the unbelievers. Destined for destruction. Romans 1:18
Was there not a time, when Gentiles were damned, while Jews had the hope? “Pre Yeshua”?
 
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eclipsenow

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The prophecies and promises given to ancient Israel under the Old Covenant will not be fulfilled because God terminated that covenant with the nation of Israel. Even though God abandoned the nation of Israel as trustees, any Jew who surrenders to the gospel of Christ by faith in Him can receive salvation because the New Covenant does not distinguish between Jews and Gentiles. (Early Jewish converts understood this concept well. See Romans 11:23.)

I was with you most of the way there - and I think I agree with the overall thrust of what you are saying. But "terminated" is a bit strong.

God's covenant did not change direction. Jesus was always the plan. It's not like Jesus 'replaces' the Covenant with Israel - but it's more like he so over-fulfils it that the very categories of promises about 'land' and a 'nation' are totally overflowing with abundance as the kingdom of God - now the church - marches out into the whole WORLD as the land. But even then it's not fulfilled because in Paradise it's a world that lasts for all eternity.

Now - over to this guy who summarises it fairly well.

“I had never heard of replacement theology the first time I was accused of believing in it. A lady that had attended our church for some time and who often forwarded me articles praising all things Jewish and Israel accused me of holding to this apparently abhorrent doctrine. I had to look it up on the Internet, where all such truths reside, before responding. One of the sites I visited defines replacement theology this way:​
Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.[1]
I’m not sure that I’ve ever met anyone who actually believes that “the church replaces Israel” and I’m sure I’ve never met anyone who believes that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.”​
What an odd way of putting things. The Bible seems to teach quite clearly that Jesus IS Israel and in some sense fulfills all of the hopes and expectations for the nation. He does what they never could. He obeys God perfectly and keeps the law entirely and thereby unlocks all of the promises and blessings that God had said he would give. He then shares those blessings with all people – Jew or Gentile – who put their faith and trust in him.​
That is the precise argument that Paul is making in Galatians 3. He says:​
“Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16 ESV)​
Jesus Christ is the ultimate focus and referent for the promises of God to Israel! The promises do not land finally on a nation but on a person! The glory and climax of God’s redemptive purpose is not “Israel in the land” but “Christ on the cross”! That’s Christianity 101 the last time I checked. Jesus is the hero and focus of the Bible – not the Jewish people as a whole and all of the blessings won by Jesus are shared equally with all believing people regardless of their ethnicity, gender or class. Isn’t that what Paul goes on to say in the same chapter?​
“for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:26–29 ESV)​
I have believed that from my earliest days as a Christian, as indeed has almost every other believer I’ve ever met. As for the idea that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel”; its hard to think of anything more ridiculous than that. What nation on earth exists outside the notice and care of Almighty God? The Bible says that God has plans for Edom for crying out loud, how much more should we believe that he has plans for Israel?​
I don’t know of any Christians who believe that God has no specific future plans for the nation of Israel, but I do know that good Christians disagree on what those plans are likely to be. The key text in that discussion is Romans 11:26 where Paul says: “And in this way all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26 ESV).​
What does he mean by that? He has already said that ‘not all are Israel who are of Israel’ (9:6) so what exactly does he mean and what exactly does God have planned? There are two main answers commonly given to that question.​
(1) He means that the full elect of God, Jew and Gentile, will all be gathered into Christ according to God’s perfect will.​
That was the position of John Calvin and has had a great deal of support throughout Christian history. According to this view, God has very specific plans to save a great many people from every tribe, tongue and nation, including the nation of Israel. ‘All Israel’ thus refers to all the elect and redeemed Jews and all the elect and redeemed Gentiles collectively. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews but are gathered into Christ alongside.​
(2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ​
This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans...​

Hmm - I'd rather stick with John Calvin thanks - as it's just more gospel focussed and makes more sense of Romans than some bizarre, sudden, out of reach stab at a prophecy for thousands of years later. For the whole first 11 chapters he's been discussing Jew and Gentile, Jew and Gentile, compare and contrast, back and forth and now ALL Israel (both of us obviously) will be saved through Jesus.
Anyway, that's my lot.

As I said - I'm mostly with you. But I don't see God's promises to Israel as having failed. Rather, they are fulfilled in Jesus in 'eschatological tension' which is a phrase that means "in the now but not yet." EG: We are now God's kingdom - but not in its fullness. We are now pressing out into all the world - but it's not entirely ours yet. We are now forgiven in Jesus - but not perfected in heaven yet. Etc.
 
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eclipsenow

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WE Christian's do have a hope. It is in Gods Promise that whosoever believes in Him and accepts the Salvation offered to all by Jesus, will have Eternal life.
The Jews don't [generally] so, they are just the same as all the rest of the unbelievers. Destined for destruction. Romans 1:18
Well - we at least agree on that.
So - 2024. Still sticking to your timetable for an AOD sometime in 2026? Or will there be a 'correction' to your 'math' as the date draws closer? :oldthumbsup:
 
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Grip Docility

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I was with you most of the way there - and I think I agree with the overall thrust of what you are saying. But "terminated" is a bit strong.

God's covenant did not change direction. Jesus was always the plan. It's not like Jesus 'replaces' the Covenant with Israel - but it's more like he so over-fulfils it that the very categories of promises about 'land' and a 'nation' are totally overflowing with abundance as the kingdom of God - now the church - marches out into the whole WORLD as the land. But even then it's not fulfilled because in Paradise it's a world that lasts for all eternity.

Now - over to this guy who summarises it fairly well.

“I had never heard of replacement theology the first time I was accused of believing in it. A lady that had attended our church for some time and who often forwarded me articles praising all things Jewish and Israel accused me of holding to this apparently abhorrent doctrine. I had to look it up on the Internet, where all such truths reside, before responding. One of the sites I visited defines replacement theology this way:​
Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.[1]
I’m not sure that I’ve ever met anyone who actually believes that “the church replaces Israel” and I’m sure I’ve never met anyone who believes that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.”​
What an odd way of putting things. The Bible seems to teach quite clearly that Jesus IS Israel and in some sense fulfills all of the hopes and expectations for the nation. He does what they never could. He obeys God perfectly and keeps the law entirely and thereby unlocks all of the promises and blessings that God had said he would give. He then shares those blessings with all people – Jew or Gentile – who put their faith and trust in him.​
That is the precise argument that Paul is making in Galatians 3. He says:​
“Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16 ESV)​
Jesus Christ is the ultimate focus and referent for the promises of God to Israel! The promises do not land finally on a nation but on a person! The glory and climax of God’s redemptive purpose is not “Israel in the land” but “Christ on the cross”! That’s Christianity 101 the last time I checked. Jesus is the hero and focus of the Bible – not the Jewish people as a whole and all of the blessings won by Jesus are shared equally with all believing people regardless of their ethnicity, gender or class. Isn’t that what Paul goes on to say in the same chapter?​
“for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:26–29 ESV)​
I have believed that from my earliest days as a Christian, as indeed has almost every other believer I’ve ever met. As for the idea that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel”; its hard to think of anything more ridiculous than that. What nation on earth exists outside the notice and care of Almighty God? The Bible says that God has plans for Edom for crying out loud, how much more should we believe that he has plans for Israel?​
I don’t know of any Christians who believe that God has no specific future plans for the nation of Israel, but I do know that good Christians disagree on what those plans are likely to be. The key text in that discussion is Romans 11:26 where Paul says: “And in this way all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26 ESV).​
What does he mean by that? He has already said that ‘not all are Israel who are of Israel’ (9:6) so what exactly does he mean and what exactly does God have planned? There are two main answers commonly given to that question.​
(1) He means that the full elect of God, Jew and Gentile, will all be gathered into Christ according to God’s perfect will.​
That was the position of John Calvin and has had a great deal of support throughout Christian history. According to this view, God has very specific plans to save a great many people from every tribe, tongue and nation, including the nation of Israel. ‘All Israel’ thus refers to all the elect and redeemed Jews and all the elect and redeemed Gentiles collectively. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews but are gathered into Christ alongside.​
(2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ​
This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans...​

Hmm - I'd rather stick with John Calvin thanks - as it's just more gospel focussed and makes more sense of Romans than some bizarre, sudden, out of reach stab at a prophecy for thousands of years later. For the whole first 11 chapters he's been discussing Jew and Gentile, Jew and Gentile, compare and contrast, back and forth and now ALL Israel (both of us obviously) will be saved through Jesus.
Anyway, that's my lot.

As I said - I'm mostly with you. But I don't see God's promises to Israel as having failed. Rather, they are fulfilled in Jesus in 'eschatological tension' which is a phrase that means "in the now but not yet." EG: We are now God's kingdom - but not in its fullness. We are now pressing out into all the world - but it's not entirely ours yet. We are now forgiven in Jesus - but not perfected in heaven yet. Etc.
Calvin has to blatantly deny that Israel is of physical decent of Jacob and in reference to Jacob's land, because he placed his entire salvic doctrine on the term "Elect".

Jews are a Physical lineage. Jews denote (Of Israel) How can a Jew be a Jew if there are no Jews within the Body of Christ? Galatians 3:28

Are we "Jews" in Christ? If you assert this, than why does Paul again pen Galatians 3:28?
 
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Grip Docility

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I was with you most of the way there - and I think I agree with the overall thrust of what you are saying. But "terminated" is a bit strong.

God's covenant did not change direction. Jesus was always the plan. It's not like Jesus 'replaces' the Covenant with Israel - but it's more like he so over-fulfils it that the very categories of promises about 'land' and a 'nation' are totally overflowing with abundance as the kingdom of God - now the church - marches out into the whole WORLD as the land. But even then it's not fulfilled because in Paradise it's a world that lasts for all eternity.

Now - over to this guy who summarises it fairly well.

“I had never heard of replacement theology the first time I was accused of believing in it. A lady that had attended our church for some time and who often forwarded me articles praising all things Jewish and Israel accused me of holding to this apparently abhorrent doctrine. I had to look it up on the Internet, where all such truths reside, before responding. One of the sites I visited defines replacement theology this way:​
Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.[1]
I’m not sure that I’ve ever met anyone who actually believes that “the church replaces Israel” and I’m sure I’ve never met anyone who believes that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.”​
What an odd way of putting things. The Bible seems to teach quite clearly that Jesus IS Israel and in some sense fulfills all of the hopes and expectations for the nation. He does what they never could. He obeys God perfectly and keeps the law entirely and thereby unlocks all of the promises and blessings that God had said he would give. He then shares those blessings with all people – Jew or Gentile – who put their faith and trust in him.​
That is the precise argument that Paul is making in Galatians 3. He says:​
“Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16 ESV)​
Jesus Christ is the ultimate focus and referent for the promises of God to Israel! The promises do not land finally on a nation but on a person! The glory and climax of God’s redemptive purpose is not “Israel in the land” but “Christ on the cross”! That’s Christianity 101 the last time I checked. Jesus is the hero and focus of the Bible – not the Jewish people as a whole and all of the blessings won by Jesus are shared equally with all believing people regardless of their ethnicity, gender or class. Isn’t that what Paul goes on to say in the same chapter?​
“for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:26–29 ESV)​
I have believed that from my earliest days as a Christian, as indeed has almost every other believer I’ve ever met. As for the idea that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel”; its hard to think of anything more ridiculous than that. What nation on earth exists outside the notice and care of Almighty God? The Bible says that God has plans for Edom for crying out loud, how much more should we believe that he has plans for Israel?​
I don’t know of any Christians who believe that God has no specific future plans for the nation of Israel, but I do know that good Christians disagree on what those plans are likely to be. The key text in that discussion is Romans 11:26 where Paul says: “And in this way all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26 ESV).​
What does he mean by that? He has already said that ‘not all are Israel who are of Israel’ (9:6) so what exactly does he mean and what exactly does God have planned? There are two main answers commonly given to that question.​
(1) He means that the full elect of God, Jew and Gentile, will all be gathered into Christ according to God’s perfect will.​
That was the position of John Calvin and has had a great deal of support throughout Christian history. According to this view, God has very specific plans to save a great many people from every tribe, tongue and nation, including the nation of Israel. ‘All Israel’ thus refers to all the elect and redeemed Jews and all the elect and redeemed Gentiles collectively. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews but are gathered into Christ alongside.​
(2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ​
This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans...​

Hmm - I'd rather stick with John Calvin thanks - as it's just more gospel focussed and makes more sense of Romans than some bizarre, sudden, out of reach stab at a prophecy for thousands of years later. For the whole first 11 chapters he's been discussing Jew and Gentile, Jew and Gentile, compare and contrast, back and forth and now ALL Israel (both of us obviously) will be saved through Jesus.
Anyway, that's my lot.

As I said - I'm mostly with you. But I don't see God's promises to Israel as having failed. Rather, they are fulfilled in Jesus in 'eschatological tension' which is a phrase that means "in the now but not yet." EG: We are now God's kingdom - but not in its fullness. We are now pressing out into all the world - but it's not entirely ours yet. We are now forgiven in Jesus - but not perfected in heaven yet. Etc.
Do you understand the difference between a Semite and a Hebrew?
 
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parousia70

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Well - we at least agree on that.
So - 2024. Still sticking to your timetable for an AOD sometime in 2026? Or will there be a 'correction' to your 'math' as the date draws closer? :oldthumbsup:
He's been doing it so long now that I expect Keras is an expert at correcting his math as he trudges along his coutinuing path of prediction>non fulfillent> adjustment> non fulfillment> adjustment> non fulfillment> adjustment> non fulfillment, etc, etc... He can probably do the math corrections in his sleep now, he's gotten so good at it.
 
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Grip Docility

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He's been doing it so long now that I expect Keras is an expert at correcting his math as he trudges along his coutinuing path of prediction>non fulfillent> adjustment> non fulfillment> adjustment> non fulfillment> adjustment> non fulfillment, etc, etc... He can probably do the math corrections in his sleep now, he's gotten so good at it.
That’s a not so “Great Disappointment”… tongue in cheek
 
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keras

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2024. Still sticking to your timetable for an AOD sometime in 2026? Or will there be a 'correction' to your 'math' as the date draws closer?
He's been doing it so long now that I expect Keras is an expert at correcting his math as he trudges along his coutinuing path of prediction>non fulfillent> adjustment> non fulfillment> adjustment> non fulfillment> adjustment> non fulfillment, etc, etc... He can probably do the math corrections in his sleep now, he's gotten so good at it.
I love you deniers, you give me great opportunities to present the truths of the Prophetic Word.
Basically people like you two are saying: What the Prophets have told us will never happen. You simply reject scripture; a serious mistake.
That’s a not so “Great Disappointment”… tongue in cheek
Far from being disappointed at the end time events not happening yet, I have a great life, active and fulfilling.
It was The SDA's who set a firm date and were disappointed.
God will commence the end times things in His good time. He does tell us in Ezekiel 7:14, that it will be; when all are ready to go to war, THEN; He will destroy them all. Including the apostate Jews; Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18
 
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Grip Docility

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I love you deniers, you give me great opportunities to present the truths of the Prophetic Word.
Basically people like you two are saying: What the Prophets have told us will never happen. You simply reject scripture; a serious mistake.

Far from being disappointed at the end time events not happening yet, I have a great life, active and fulfilling.
It was The SDA's who set a firm date and were disappointed.
God will commence the end times things in His good time. He does tell us in Ezekiel 7:14, that it will be; when all are ready to go to war, THEN; He will destroy them all. Including the apostate Jews; Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18
Keras... you nailed my tongue and cheek. Well played. Actually it was the "Millerites", which oddly, weren't SDA. That eventually led to the movement, though. :)
 
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eclipsenow

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Calvin has to blatantly deny that Israel is of physical decent of Jacob and in reference to Jacob's land, because he placed his entire salvic doctrine on the term "Elect".

Jews are a Physical lineage. Jews denote (Of Israel) How can a Jew be a Jew if there are no Jews within the Body of Christ? Galatians 3:28

Are we "Jews" in Christ? If you assert this, than why does Paul again pen Galatians 3:28?
Huh? It's like I've said "The sky sure is blue today", and but you've replied with a vigorous rejoinder "But I said I like my cup of coffee with sugar!" I mean - the sky can be blue and you can still enjoy sugar in your coffee. One does not necessarily contradict the other?

There's Dispensationalist theology, and then Covenant Theology. I subscribe to the later. The physical lineage of Jews is recognised in Covenant Theology - and incorporated into the one Kingdom of God via Jesus.

The Reformers were Covenant Theology. They see the Bible as a cohesive, self-consistent whole. The New Testament teaches substantially the same doctrines as the Old Testament - according to the claims of the NT itself. Israel as the Kingdom of God was to invite all the nations to live under the grace of God which expressed itself in the law and trusting in God’s mercy expressed in the sacrificial system. In the NT the church as the Kingdom of God is made up of both Jew and Gentile. Jesus so fulfils the law in living as the perfect Israel for all of us - and transforms it into being written in our hearts. The law is fulfilled and in some ways expanded and upgraded into moral principles that we can live by in all cultures across all the whole world. It’s a consistent but unfolding message of God’s saving grace and acts in the world.

Acts 26

22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen – 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.’”



THAT is why Galatians 3:28 is true.

"28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."



Try this devotional app. Through the Word | Read the Bible. Understand it. Apply it. Make it a Habit.
It's about 10 or 15 minutes each morning.
Do the Romans one - you can set it up to hear the bible read in David Suchet's deep voice (the guy who played Inspector Poirot).
 
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Grip Docility

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Huh? It's like I've said "The sky sure is blue today", and but you've replied with a vigorous rejoinder "But I said I like my cup of coffee with sugar!" I mean - the sky can be blue and you can still enjoy sugar in your coffee. One does not necessarily contradict the other?

There's Dispensationalist theology, and then Covenant Theology. I subscribe to the later. The physical lineage of Jews is recognised in Covenant Theology - and incorporated into the one Kingdom of God via Jesus.

The Reformers were Covenant Theology. They see the Bible as a cohesive, self-consistent whole. The New Testament teaches substantially the same doctrines as the Old Testament - according to the claims of the NT itself. Israel as the Kingdom of God was to invite all the nations to live under the grace of God which expressed itself in the law and trusting in God’s mercy expressed in the sacrificial system. In the NT the church as the Kingdom of God is made up of both Jew and Gentile. Jesus so fulfils the law in living as the perfect Israel for all of us - and transforms it into being written in our hearts. The law is fulfilled and in some ways expanded and upgraded into moral principles that we can live by in all cultures across all the whole world. It’s a consistent but unfolding message of God’s saving grace and acts in the world.

Acts 26

22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen – 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.’”



THAT is why Galatians 3:28 is true.

"28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."



Try this devotional app. Through the Word | Read the Bible. Understand it. Apply it. Make it a Habit.
It's about 10 or 15 minutes each morning.
Do the Romans one - you can set it up to hear the bible read in David Suchet's deep voice (the guy who played Inspector Poirot).
If Israel of Blood and land is/are the Elect… what would happen to the doctrine of election?
 
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eclipsenow

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If Israel of Blood and land is/are the Elect… what would happen to the doctrine of election?
The true Kingdom of God is elect. In the OT that was expressed as Israel - but then Jesus said if Israel didn't worship him then the very stones of the earth would. So those Jews who have faith in Christ are elect. Those who reject Christ are not. It's that simple. You have to ask yourself what you even think the Kingdom of God is? Try listening to the 2 audio below.

Inaugurated eschatology is a term used to describe the belief that the end times (or latter days) were inaugurated at the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. In other words, Jesus' bringing of the Kingdom of God has both a present and future aspects. Sometimes called already and not yet, it argues that the end is already here, but it has yet to be consummated. For example, Christians await the final resurrection where they will receive new bodies, yet in a sense, believers are already "raised with Christ" (Col. 3:1). Or, as believers await the final judgment, in a sense they have already passed through it, for "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1) for believers that are justified by faith in Christ (cf. Rom. 3:21-36). Overall, there is a tension between this age and the age to come.​
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Grip Docility

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The true Kingdom of God is elect. In the OT that was expressed as Israel - but then Jesus said if Israel didn't worship him then the very stones of the earth would. So those Jews who have faith in Christ are elect. Those who reject Christ are not. It's that simple. You have to ask yourself what you even think the Kingdom of God is? Try listening to the 2 audio below.

Inaugurated eschatology is a term used to describe the belief that the end times (or latter days) were inaugurated at the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. In other words, Jesus' bringing of the Kingdom of God has both a present and future aspects. Sometimes called already and not yet, it argues that the end is already here, but it has yet to be consummated. For example, Christians await the final resurrection where they will receive new bodies, yet in a sense, believers are already "raised with Christ" (Col. 3:1). Or, as believers await the final judgment, in a sense they have already passed through it, for "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1) for believers that are justified by faith in Christ (cf. Rom. 3:21-36). Overall, there is a tension between this age and the age to come.​
Multimedia​
This becomes delightfully simple, because it appears that a question went unanswered…

“If Israel of Blood and land is/are the Elect… what would happen to the doctrine of election?”
 
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Grip Docility

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If circles had 4 corners....
Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

So then, to be ELECT, One must carry the burden of "Being an Enemy of the gospel". Perhaps it's time to pull out a good whittling knife and carve the edges off of that square. :preach:
 
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eclipsenow

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Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

So then, to be ELECT, One must carry the burden of "Being an Enemy of the gospel". Perhaps it's time to pull out a good whittling knife and carve the edges off of that square. :preach:
Cherry-picking much?

Theologian, Dr Don Carson, ascribes a quote to his father: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.”1 Anyone can quote a Bible verse, out of context, and make a case for a particular view or doctrine. This is known as “proof texting”.
The way you're trying to use it as absolutely indicating they're called forever would contradict not just the rest of the New Testament - but Paul's own letter to the Romans - indeed - even elements in that very chapter!

I mean LOOK how the chapter starts? Paul's obviously trying to explain how difficult it is that most of Israel are NOT saved - NOT elect! So what's going on with him saying they were elect? It's the history of Israel - and now they are still part of God's kingdom as ALL people groups can be if the individuals in them trust in his son. So how else does Paul use this term 'elect' in the chapter?
I ask then: did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah – how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 ‘Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me’[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? ‘I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.’ 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.​
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
‘God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.’​


So are they without hope?

11 Again I ask: did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!​

Is the whole nation of Israel (back then) still saved? Not without faith. They are the natural branches that have been broken off!

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.​
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!​
So what hope is there for Israel? Those who repent will be saved - and as the Gentiles come to faith and arouse their jealousy - this seems to be the main way the Jews of Paul's day will be saved.


25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
‘The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.’

So what did their special place in history mean? They were the root branch so that others may be grafted in. But just as the deliverer came from Zion for all nations - so he also came to that remnant of Israel that will trust in the Lord. But it's ALL through the gospel - there is no other covenant.

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
But notice the means? It's the same as the means of grace to us.

To split that off and try to single out a few verses from the overall meaning of the chapter - well - that's grounds for making the bible say anything at all. I can play that game.

For instance - did you notice verse 32 says everyone will be saved? :oldthumbsup::doh:

"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

The bible said it, that settles it!
EVERYONE will be saved!

But of course - that's cherry-picking of the worst kind.

Reading is about context.
 
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Grip Docility

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Cherry-picking much? To slam that verse down as a proof-text without a context becomes a pretext for
I reckon this is my third pitch. You know the question that you keep dodging. At least bunt, then you wouldn't have 2 strikes on the board.

You know the question. Last
chance.

“If Israel of Blood and land is/are the Elect… what would happen to the doctrine of election?”

It's a fast ball, will it get hit, this time?
 
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