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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Part of Our Lady of Guadalupe’s First Chapel Still Stands 500 Years Later

The often-overlooked chapel at Tepeyac, where St. Juan Diego lived and guarded the miraculous tilma for 17 years, remains a key part of the Guadalupe story and Mexico’s spiritual heritage.

The story of St. Juan Diego and Our Lady of Guadalupe began with the well-known apparitions of 1531. The Indigenous visionary remained for years dedicated to the preservation and dissemination of the message of the Virgin Mary at a chapel that is still preserved and forms an essential part of the Marian complex of Tepeyac.

Next to the current Guadalupe Basilica in Mexico City is the old chapel built to house the image miraculously imprinted on St. Juan Diego’s cloak. This historical site is little-known to pilgrims.

The Origin of the Chapel​

St. Juan Diego was the Indigenous man to whom the Virgin Mary appeared from Dec. 9–12, 1531, asking him to intercede with the first archbishop of Mexico, Friar Juan de Zumárraga, that a chapel be built “on the plain of Tepeyac” as a sign of her love for all nations.

It was on his tilma (cloak) that the image of the Virgin Mary was miraculously imprinted.

After the apparitions, the archbishop ordered the construction of a small chapel to house the tilma. St. Juan Diego lived next to it for 17 years, dedicated to recounting the events and caring for the sacred image until his death in 1548.



A Virgin for the ‘Completely Forgotten’​


Continued below.

Prior Auth Comes to Medicare

Death panel ---> Death bots
Death bots with a financial incentive

Starting Jan. 1, traditional Medicare recipients in Washington state will face a new hurdle to get certain procedures covered — private AI companies that get paid based on how many claims they deny.

Washington is one of six states selected to take part in a federal pilot program called Wasteful and Inappropriate Service Reduction, which aims to reduce fraud and waste by requiring prior authorization for about a dozen outpatient procedures deemed “low-value services.”

AI companies will be paid a portion of the savings from claims they deny or, as the Wasteful and Inappropriate Service Reduction plan puts it, “compensated based on a share of averted expenditures.”
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Michael Bublé says 'music is a gift from God' as he meets with Pope Leo

Singer Michael Bublé discussed his Catholic faith and how music is “a gift from God” as he met with Pope Leo XIV and performed at the Vatican.

Bublé spoke at a Vatican press conference on Friday ahead of his performance at the Vatican’s “Concert for the Poor” on Saturday.

“This morning, I had the opportunity to meet the Holy Father,” the 50-year-old Canadian native recalled. “For me, this was something that I knew was going to be one of the greatest moments of my life.”

Bublé also shared his belief that “music is a gift from God,” adding, “When I hear music, I hear the voice of God.”

Continued below.

Did India deny a visa to Franklin Graham ahead of a crusade? Here's what we know

The Rev. Franklin Graham was recently unable to attend a Christian revival event in India due to a visa issue, with some alleging foul play.

Reports circulated last week stating that the 73-year-old Graham was prevented from speaking at an event in Nagaland late last month to commemorate the anniversary of a crusade his father, the late Rev. Billy Graham, conducted in the region 53 years earlier. The Times of India reported that Graham had been denied a visa, causing one local leader to send letters to federal officials voicing displeasure with the matter.

A spokesperson for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association clarified the situation in a statement sent to The Christian Post on Tuesday.

"The visas for Rev. Franklin Graham and our team were approved by the Government of India, Ministry of Home Affairs, Foreigners Division; however, it was after the necessary departure date for Mr. Graham to arrive in time for Nagaland United: A Gathering of Faith, Hope and Revival and for the Hornbill Festival," read the statement.

Continued below.
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Refuting Losing Salvation!

Because He kept it for the Jews, which nobody could do. Gentiles Christians are never under the Law but under Grace!
Where does it say this in this passage? Jesus said "Whoever" not Jews.
Jesus was still teaching the Law at that time. I believe until the Temple was destroyed 40 years after His ascension the law was still in force. But with no more Temple there could be no more law. Also, one cannot keep the law and Grace.
Where does it say we are not supposed to keep God's laws- its kept by God's faithful until He returns Rev14:12 Rev22:14 Just as Jesus said Mat5:17-30 Grace does not mean one can sin Rom6:1-4 and sin is breaking God's laws 1John3:4 James 2:11
His death "finished" all the OT prophecies concerning His expiation for our sins (Jhn 19:30). His death was our condemnation; His Life and ascension is our growth in our faith in Him (Eph 4:15).
So forget the OT prophecies of His Second Coming that Jesus said He did not come to destroy? I believe allowing the Text to interpret Itself one will find the message God is telling us.
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Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

Congress to withhold Pentagon travel funds until it sees boat strike videos

Lawmakers plan to withhold a quarter of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s travel budget until the Pentagon provides them with the videos. The demand, quietly tucked into the final draft of the annual defense policy bill, calls for “unedited video of strikes conducted against designated terrorist organizations in the area of responsibility of the United States Southern Command” to the House and Senate Armed Services Committees.

Congressional leaders released their final draft of the defense bill Sunday, which is expected to be approved — without changes — by the House later this week and then the Senate.
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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Does AI follow that thinking? Does AI have a god? Will it one day also become aware of self?
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which commandment in The Written Law is the greatest?” 37 Yeshua said to him, “You shall love THE LORD JEHOVAH your God from all your heart and from all your soul and from all your power and from all your mind.” 38 “This is the great and the first commandment.” 39 “And the second which is like it is, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commands depend all The Written Law and The Prophets.”
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HHS investigating claims school vaccinated student despite religious exemption

Federal health officials have launched an investigation into a complaint alleging that an unidentified school located in the Midwestern United States disregarded a valid religious exemption and administered a vaccine to a student without parental consent.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced the investigation on Dec. 3 after officials said school authorities administered a vaccine to a student despite having a religious exemption submitted under a state law.

According to HHS, the vaccine was supplied through the federal Vaccines for Children program, which is administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Entities participating in the program, including schools and medical practices, must adhere to state laws on religious and other exemptions from compulsory vaccination requirements, according to HHS.

The department's Office for Civil Rights will determine whether the school violated those obligations. Neither the school's name nor the student's identity was disclosed.

Continued below.
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Trickster Christ and the Second Fall: A New Framework for Understanding the Kingdom of God

I’m sorry
This means not taking sides with Radical Orthodoxy (John Milbank, Catherine Pickstock), which advocates a defense of sacramental ontology and continues the tradition of nouvelle théologie, supported by Hans Boersma. These are highly significant issues. As Christians, we must cultivate an understanding of these matters before we risk falling into the pit ourselves.
this seems over educated jargon, not for the common people whom the gospel was intended for. But since Christ has such depth it is definitely food for you. But where your faith lies I don’t know. It’s not clear if the ‘trickster’ is a respectful term. It might be a colloquial term that suits philosophers fancy.. it could be derogatory.

i accepted what for a long time I was to afraid to admit. I had to forsake my sin and admit Jesus made sense and that there was going to be blessing for following. But until I forsook my sin it was hard to bear. How is the truth’ a trickster?!
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Tit for Tat Tariffs - The US versus the World

View attachment 374259

No, you, unilaterally, would not be allowed to do that. We The People can do that.

View attachment 374256

I don't know if it's enhanced our National Security, but Trump has enhanced China's access to more advanced chips.

View attachment 374258

Well, at least we're getting our $25%.
The Supreme Court is NOT making US tariffs illegal, just the method that Trump has chosen on SOME of his tariffs, primarily the accross the board tariffs and those based on the national "emergency" of trade tariffs with individual countries.

He can keep his tariffs based on national security (including drug trafficking). Tariffs on specific products are not affected.

In any case, tariffs can always be passed by Congress, now or in next year's big, beautiful reconciliation bill.
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The Great Judgment is coming



Stuff of nightmares – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath - Revelation 6:12-17


2 Esdras 15&16 These are the words of the Lord: I shall show sinners no pity, My sword will not spare those murderers who stain the ground with innocent blood.
My anger has burst out in flame, scorching the earth to its foundations and consuming sinners like burning straw. Woe to sinners who flout My commands, I shall show them no mercy. I well know all who offend against Me, I consign them to death and destruction.

See the clouds – full of fury and tempest, their appearance is hideous. They will let loose a vast storm over the land. There will be terror and trembling throughout the world, people will shudder, stricken with panic. Huge clouds will pile up and ravage the whole land and its inhabitants. A terrible storm will sweep over all that is high and exalted, with fire and hail and flying swords.

Strong is the arm that bends the bow and sharp the arrows that He shoots. Once they are on their way, nothing will stop them until they reach the ends of the earth. Calamities are let loose and will not turn back. The fire is alight and will not be put out. When the scorching heat bears down upon you, your strength and splendour will wither like a flower. When the Lord sends calamities, who can avert them? When His anger bursts into flame, who can extinguish it? When the lightning flashes and it thunders, who will not quake with dread? [a Coronal Mass Ejection]

But you, servants of the Lord, listen and learn. This is His Word: take it to heart and do not doubt what He says: Calamities are close at hand and will not be delayed. As a woman giving birth suffers pangs, then comes the birth; similarly calamities will come and the world will groan under the pangs that beset it. My people, get ready and when these disasters surround you, behave as if you are strangers on earth.

Listen, you whom I have chosen, says the Lord: the days of harsh suffering are close at hand, but I shall rescue you from them. Have done with fears and doubts! God is your guide. As followers of My commandments and instructions, you must not let your sins weigh you down or any wickedness gain the ascendancy.

Woe to those who are entangled in their sins and overrun by their wicked deeds! They are like a field where the path is entwined with thorns and there is no way through. They are separated off in readiness for destruction by fire.
Ref: REB Apocrypha

This passage from the prophet Ezra, describes very well how the Lord will act on the terrible Day of His vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6, Ezekiel 21:7, Isaiah 33:14, Jeremiah 30:4-7, Isaiah 13:6-16, Isaiah 30:26-30; caused by a explosion on the sun.

But those Christian people who trust and believe in His salvation will be saved. They are told to be prepared – that is, be aware of what will happen, so as not to be taken by surprise. There is not a rapture, removal: ‘these calamities will surround you’. Isaiah 43:2

THEN; God’s righteous servants will soon gather and settle into all of the Holy Land:
Isaiah 30:29 For you there will be songs and gladness of heart, as you march to music, on the way to the Mountain of the Lord; the Rock of Israel. Isaiah 12:1-6
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What are some of your guns own and use then for Hunting and target practice?

It’s more common in Germany and England. Hunting round, commercial ammo there. 93 gr bullets is a favorite for their small deer.. I’m fist going like shooting it over 3000 fps. It’s a rarity but dealers don’t want to give me more than $350 for it. They don’t think I should sell it for any more. But I paid more than that. But it hasn’t sold.
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Ellen White on the mark of the beast for those that worship on Sunday

I never said it was God expanded on this same event, both are true, Scripture does not delete Scripture
Strawman. No one has argued that. Scripture has to be understood in context not by reading doctrines into verses.
and just because you don't like Eze20:15-
I love Ezekiel but it does not say what you say it does.
where God said verbatim why the Israelites did not enter into their promised land of rest, doesn't make what God said plainly not true.
Not really. The sabbaths listed here is plural so it does not necessarily mean the weekly sabbath. In fact, if Ezekiel was talking about THE sabbath then it would not be plural. You continue to read your pet doctrine into scripture. The rest of your post I have already addressed many times before do not wasting my time.
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Are Young Men Being Drawn to Christ or Christian Culture?

I thought that this was an interesting read.

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Asking AI to explain Sunday observance when NT has no such command

Then AI gave this "Biblical Context" remark

Biblical Context​

  • The Sabbath was established by God at creation (Genesis 2:2–3) and is explicitly commanded as the seventh day, Saturday, in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:8–11; Deuteronomy 5:12–15).
  • Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath and taught that the Law, including the Sabbath, remains valid (Matthew 5:17–19; Luke 4:16).
  • The apostles and early Christians continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath. The New Testament contains numerous references to Sabbath observance, with no divine instruction to shift it to Sunday (Acts 16:13, 17:2, Hebrews 4:4, 9).

Early Historical Developments​

  • In the 2nd century, Christian writers such as Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria began promoting Sunday as a commemoration of Christ’s resurrection. This was initially a supplemental practice, not a replacement of the Sabbath.
  • Anti-Jewish sentiment and cultural influences gradually encouraged some Christians to distance themselves from Saturday worship.
  1. Ecclesiastical Formalization​

    • The Council of Laodicea (~364 CE) reinforced Sunday observance and discouraged Sabbath observance among Christians:
      “Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honor the Lord’s Day.”
    • Subsequently, the Catholic Church, under Popes such as Sylvester I and with bishops like Eusebius, formalized the practice of Sunday observance as the “Lord’s Day,” transferring rest from Saturday to Sunday.
  2. Summary of Contributors​

    1. Jesus and Apostles – Maintained Saturday Sabbath; no divine instruction to change it.
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Does Open Carry Cause Problems?

Yeah I agree, there is nothing wrong with carrying a weapon it all depends on what you intend to do with it.
Agreed - open carry is not the issue.

As shown the statistics show a 50/50 split of the top ten cities where the gun violence is the worst. 5 have open carry and 5 do not.
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"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

And and your quotes of John and ACTS are b. all speaking to Israel. , like John 3:3. and 5. and John 10:27 and the BODY of CHRIST to be

called SHEEP. !!

dan p
Hey Dan

John 10:27 would be spiritual Israel. these are already OT believers and declared righteous by promise. John 3:3,5 would be speaking of the way to become part of spiritual Israel.
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The real gifts and what they really are.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. The lists given in Scripture are general. If it's from the Holy Spirit, not the flesh, it's good and thus a gift. That's the Biblical meaning of the gifts. Setting aside the sign gifts per the rules.

In short, It's the fruit of the Spirit.

John 15:1-5 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

"...for without Me you can do nothing", nothing good implied. That's where the gifts come from.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Ephesians 4:7-8, 11-12 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."....And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

All the gifts are for the edification of the Church. Any gifts used for self edification is in fact in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians, and therefore, most likely, not from the Spirit and not a gift from God.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

No need to get goofy with this stuff. Scripture is pretty clear. 1 Corinthians 12-14, Paul lays down the foundation of purpose, to edify the Body, not ourselves. Then gives us examples of the what to do (edify the Body), and then gives us examples of the what not to do (edify self). Though many teach the 'what not to do" as commands, and as good things, these are clearly examples of what not to do. Love is the great qualifier. Love is not self seeking.

Whenever in doubt, ask if what you're doing passes the simple test of love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8A Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails....

Remember, fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), good, a gift. The flesh, not good, not a gift, but sin.

Galatians 5:16-17 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

:)

I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

We either disagree or do not understand each other. The debate is to find out which it is, or to help lurkers see both sides and understand the implications for themselves.

As to your question, I will provide a simple example from a human frame of reference, as we can argue all day about God's frame of reference, but any rational person should realize that we have no idea about what goes on there, but philosophically, the implications are the same.

Let's theorize that there is somehow a scientist who is perfect, mistake-free, and somehow can understand all of the variables that go into a particular experiment like a controlled energy blast that ignites in a vacuum when he pushes a big red button. He can set up his experiment in one of two ways:

1.) He meticulously works out all the variables ahead of time so that when he pushes that button, he knows where every particle will go, how they will affect each other and everything goes as planned. Nothing new is learned or particularly interesting to the scientist as he knew what was going to happen all along.

2.) He sets up the same experiment, but in this variation, he decides to not calculate every particle but allows them to interact with each other on their own. He still sets up constraints so that they will not leave the vacuum or be in a position to destroy the experiment. Still many different things can happen, and the result is far more satisfying.

You could call it omniscience by default vs omniscience by choice.

You could relate Satan to a rogue jealous scientist who decides to alter the development of two of the particles, but I think this story would get too long and convoluted if I worked out analogies for everything in Genesis.



I really don't see the difference between the two sentences. I agree with both of them. External causation means I am not making the choice.



You are correct from a logical standpoint, but that is irrelevant. The question is whether God already knows my future choices, thereby making my choice moot. Assuming that we both agree that the world contains a lot of evil people, then it's not just a case of God allowing evil to happen. It's a case of God creating evil in its entirety, a concept that I reject.



I don't have a problem with God being at the beginning of all causation. I have a problem with a concept whose logical end result is that God is responsible for man's fall from grace, not man.



I think we have no way of knowing what reality is for God. I think that omnipotence relative to humanity tells me nothing about the environment in the spiritual world. And I think omniscience by default logically precludes God's freedom and sets up all sorts of paradoxes that cannot be resolved.

God sees A, but wants B, and so intervenes and changes the result to B, but then A never occurred, so God shouldn't have been able to see A as a future, because there was no future A.

And that was a ridiculously simplistic example.
I'll highlight this part of what you say, because it is representative of what we disagree on:

God sees A, but wants B, and so intervenes and changes the result to B, but then A never occurred, so God shouldn't have been able to see A as a future, because there was no future A.

And that was a ridiculously simplistic example

Right from the get-go you step out of fact into supposition. God does not simply "see A but want B". That misrepresents what God is doing. It represents the facet WE see, by virtue of a general knowledge we have of him and his nature, and by comparison to his stated commands. While we indeed (as you said) have no way of knowing what reality is for God, we can know some things, such as the fact that it is not how we see it.

It would be useful to do a good study on the theological and philosophical Attributes of God of Aseity, Simplicity and Immanence. Consider the notion, for example, that for God to think is to do, as opposed to the human notions of God considering this or that possibility. If what is possible is exactly all he does, and there is no other fact, then "what would be [otherwise] 'possible' is only by our lack of knowledge". As RC Sproul quoted, "Chance is only a substitute for, 'I don't know.'" ALL FACT DEPENDS ON GOD.

God sees A because he caused A. "There is no plan B." That B goes against his command has to do with what SHOULD HAVE happened. Don't confuse his command with his plan ( =the theological term, 'his decree').

Disclaimer concerning the following statements: My representation of how you see things is drawn on what I hear you saying, and admittedly may be off somewhat:

You assume that (apparently) God began "fact" 'rolling', but then left it to do as it will. Not so. He is the very "in whom we live and move and have our being". Existence itself is by God's upholding, maintaining. "FACT" is God's doing.​
You say, "God intervenes and changes the result". Not so. The result was what God saw and accomplished from the beginning. Nothing was changed. There is indeed, "should have, but didn't" [or did] but no "would have", except for our guesses concerning contingent causation and God's plain statements as to what would have happened, but didn't —neither of which represent possibility, but only as to describe what should have happened vs the results of what was chosen.​
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(ETA: Plot thickens more) NYT reports interim US Attorney Alina Habba will leave interim role (Judge rules her acting appointment illegal)

Alina Habba resigns as New Jersey US attorney after appeals court defeat

She announced her resignation as U.S. attorney in a social media post on Monday. She will remain serving as "Senior Adviser to the Attorney General for U.S. Attorneys."

The resignation comes after a protracted legal fight about whether she could serve in the U.S. attorney role without Senate confirmation.

“Following the flawed Third Circuit decision disqualifying Alina Habba from performing her duties in the U.S. Attorney's office for the District of New Jersey, I am saddened to accept Alina's resignation," Attorney General Pam Bondi said in a statement. "The Department of Justice will seek further review of this decision, and we are confident it will be reversed."

The Trump administration has faced growing headwinds over its efforts to install Trump loyalists as top prosecutors in U.S. attorneys' offices across the country, suffering a string of court defeats as judges raise concerns they're actively disregarding the law.
Halligan is still hanging on for dear life.
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