New Posts

Hans Blaster · 2025-12-08T22:25:32-0600

essentialsaltes said:
'We know that Jesus was born into a Roman imperial occupation, and pretty much immediately becomes a refugee in Egypt, has to flee and faces political violence,' the Rev. Michael Woolf said.

The pastor seems a bit confused. According to Matthew, Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea which was controlled by Herod the Great and then fled to the Roman province of Egypt to avoid Herod's murderous intent. While Harod was a client king Judea was not "occupied". Luke has a different story. In his, Joseph take Mary *into* Roman occupied Judea from the client state of Galillee (Nazareth) ruled by Herod's son Harod Antipas. Whether Bethlehem in Judea was occupied by the Romans at the time (depending on the timeline) or not, Egypt was *definitely* under under Roman occupation.

DamianWarS · 2025-12-08T22:08:08-0600

DamianWarS said:
Honestly, this whole argument assumes the NT was supposed to give us a new version of Leviticus. It doesn’t. There’s no command for Sunday, yeah—but there’s also no command for Christians to keep the Sabbath as a covenant sign either. The NT just doesn’t legislate worship-day rules at all.

Acts 18:4 isn’t Christians “keeping Sabbath”—it’s Paul preaching to Jews in a synagogue. If we turn Acts’ descriptions into commands, then we also need to meet daily, sell everything, and preach till midnight.

“Lord’s Day” isn’t defined in the NT, but the earliest Christians (1st/2nd century) consistently used it for Sunday, not Saturday. That’s long before Rome had institutional power, so the “Catholic Church invented Sunday” narrative isn’t historically accurate.

Bottom line: the NT emphasizes freedom of days (Rom 14:5) and the passing of Sinai’s covenant markers (Col 2:16–17). It tells Christians to gather, not which day they must gather.

So pointing out “there’s no Sunday command” doesn’t prove Sabbath is binding, it just proves the NT isn’t a rulebook for weekly holy days.

@BobRyan, to add, I would also say the law of Christ is distinctly different than the Mosaic law or if you choose the 10 commandments. These laws spoon-feed the requirement, giving us a clear approved/not approved list but can also be exploited, are at risk of legalistic creep, not to mention they don't critically address our moral responsibilities (I may actually keep the 10 but hate my neighbour at the same time). This is a lot of what Christ addresses when he addresses the Pharisees.

The Israelites needed a concrete instruction to reinforce and keep core monotheistic values and civil order as defined by God, not by surrounding pagan cultures. Even a cursory reading of Exodus quickly shows that Israel was not mature to make these choices themselves. These laws themselves function as a type of polemic to these other cultures, as well as a guide for Israel, so that they may show order under God and they themselves may be recalibrated. Christ reframes it to a heuristic approach of law over giving a specific list or requirements (Matthew 22:37-40). This forces us to both critically approach our moral and faith responsibilities under Christ as well as rely on the HS for guidance over a check list approach. in fact, this is exactly how the NT frames it in Gal 3:23-25 "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Teaching "you must worship on x day" would be counterproductive to this focus.

Mark Quayle · 2025-12-08T22:01:33-0600

SuperCow said:
I am not disputing that within our reality, God is the cause of everything. What I am saying is that if God caused all, then having omniscience automatically precludes true choice for anything that is caused, human or otherwise. My choice is an illusion. God created me a certain way, in an environment unique to me, knowing how I would respond and every choice that I would ever make. Therefore, with that logic, Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin; the serpent had no choice but to deceive, and man had no choice but to (for the most part) reject God, because of how they were created, how they were taught, and their life experiences.

The "impossible to lie" quote was a hyperbole to show how the raw meaning of the word itself (omnipotence or omniscience) is technically an oxymoron.

As far as translated scriptures go, certain things obviously need to be interpreted, otherwise raw readings look like contradictions.

Genesis 6:6,7 & 1 Samuel 15:11,35 - God regrets his own actions. But in the same chapter in Samuel (1 Samuel 15:29) which you quoted, God is not a man that he should have regret. (ESV) or that he should repent (KJV) or change his mind (NIV). So obviously there is some kind of interpretation or translation issue. But the fact remains that God anointed three different individuals to be king over Israel, and only one remained faithful. (Saul & David through Samuel, and Jeroboam through Ahijah) Not a great record if you are omniscient or know ahead of time what your chosen appointees will do. In fact, Jeroboam almost immediately rebelled and not a single king of Israel from that point were faithful. (except partially Jehu)

I'm not suggesting that God doesn't know or see or have some kind of supernatural ability to see the future. I just don't follow the logic that God doesn't have a choice to decide what to foresee, in order to prevent his creation from being a mere simulation.

If God caused everything and knows everything, then I have no will, period. If it is self-contradictory to say that God can sin (which I agree with), then he can't possibly have pre-conceived that Adam and Eve and the serpent and Satan would sin, because then, as you say, God would be sinning against himself through Adam and Eve, and is furthermore responsible for everything Satan would do.

This sentence is self-contradictory. Your choices are not your own if they are caused by someone else.

You are missing the point. Whatever reason I may have to choose what I have chosen to do is caused by God, as you say, whether that is by influencing my brain waves now, or by just allowing it to develop through history from some initial quantum wave of creation. The sticking point is whether at the point of creation God already knew that I would exist and what I would do thousands or billions of years later. (Depending on whether you are a young earth or old earth creationist) And omniscience means God did know, and therefore my choices are not mine after all.

But I didn't say that or believe that. You don't maybe see it that way, but that is your position. I believe that God can create a creature with free choice, that we all have free choice, and God wants us to have free choice. (the word choice here being synonymous with will) I also believe that despite our free choice, prophecies can still exist, because despite what we do in our lives, it will not affect prophecy or God's will, so peering into our choices is not relevant. And if our actions did or was going to affect God's will, then God would intervene as he did in so many parts of the Bible.

Furthermore, God taking an initiative to help a single individual in distress who prays for help will also not generally affect prophecy. So individually God can guide us, and on a macro scale he can fulfill his prophecies without contradiction.

It's going to take too long to continue to debate each point if in the end all we do is disagree. Can you please explain how it is possible for anything (besides God himself) to happen that is not caused to happen? You keep coming up with this idea that if I am caused to do something that I could not have chosen it. I'm saying that I could not have chosen without being caused to choose. Choices don't happen in a vacuum. You wanted what you chose. You wanted what you chose because something —myriad causes, actually— resulted in you wanting what you wanted. You didn't invent fact on your own.

What's curious to me is that, given a different context, many who argue for freewill are more than happy with the notion of 'chains-of-causation'. But as soon as we say that God is at the beginning of all the chains, all the sudden we get cries of "foul"! Why? Really, why? You can't tell me the reasons why you want what you want. You may tell me a reason, but when I ask for the explanation for what caused that reason, you have to come up with something else, and so on. You won't admit to God being at the head of all causation. You want something to happen out of thin air, which is, sorry, illogical. Nothing comes from nothing.

I just read your post again. If I am misrepresenting you and you do agree that God is omniscient and omnipotent, say so. Your conclusion makes sense, if you agree with that: Free will, (as defined by the notion that it is uncaused), is a fiction.

Lost4words · 2025-12-08T21:58:45-0600

Jan001 said:
God hasn't made his view clear and decisive.
The point is that we must be ready to come face to face with God at all times.

True.

We must go misinterpreting Scripture.

BPPLEE · 2025-12-08T21:57:03-0600

Hans Blaster said:
Did I say that? No, what I said is that during Biden's presidency I was not reading the RW sites that were obsessed with the "caravans".

As for google, I am not interested in some wild goose chase, I want to know what you are posting. So when and where was this photo taken?

December 27th 2023 (published)
Pictures on Christmas Day (December 25th, 2023) showed a long line of people, some carrying placards and banners, children amongst them, setting out from Tapachula, in the far southeast of Mexico

Richard T · 2025-12-08T21:55:28-0600

Glad to hea

ThatRobGuy said:
On topics where I disagree with the Administration, I push back quite hard with the same approach...but those topics on here are few and far between. I went hard on the anti-vaxxers during covid, I've pushed back on climate change denialism in the past. When Israel funding comes up, I criticize that... I'd be more in-line with the left on matters of campaign finance reform, and drug policy. Rewind a decade when gay marriage was the hot topic, I sided with the left on that.

Those topics don't pop up as much anymore

The thread content is heavily saturated with the topics of immigration and DEI related stuff as of late. I can't help it that 75% of the threads that come up happen to fall into the handful of topics where I have some overlap with the conservatives.

Glad to hear that you think through on various issues and are not a political party puppet. Always better to know why you support or believe something yourself rather than rely on others.

Michie · 2025-12-08T21:46:48-0600

Christworshiper said:
Does anyone know if this the first time a U.S. President recognized this holy day?

Nope.

Richard T · 2025-12-08T21:45:43-0600

Glad to have you in CF and wish you God's best in your Christian walk.

Richard T · 2025-12-08T21:41:35-0600

mindlight said:
Yes both Putin and Trump agree on breaking up the EU. There is an opportunistic streak in both leaders here. Putin has a territorial divide and conquer ambition and Trump wants the greater leverage of trading with smaller nation states rather than Europe as a block, also he rightly sees a problem in the wokist, godless cultures of European elites and in the basic strategic foolishness that led to an overdependence on Russian raw materials and Chinese trade. We should neither be naive about Americas intent here nor make a big thing of opposing it. Rather they can be helpful allies in driving much needed reforms before it is too late for us.

Trump basically believes that the old Christian European and American models worked better than the multikulti ones employed today in Europe. In part that is an unwelcome recall of the memory of a different kind of Europe where racism held sway. But so also it is a commentary on current realities like the breakdowns of: cultural unity, true spirituality and religion. The current weakness of Europe on the world stage is spiritual rather than to do with our wealth or even military power which remains substantial albeit in need of an overhaul. Recovering our self-confidence is not about reasserting white imperial domination, that is gone forever. It is rather about finding a new Christian identity that can work with a different kind of world where we longer dominate but must compete both to survive and also to promote the values many of us have forgotten, or no longer care for.

Vanellus said:
Supporting jumped up nobody Tommy Robinson maybe? One has to wonder whether Putin really has something on Trump.

Kremlin hails Trump’s national security strategy as aligned with Russia’s vision

If so, I do hope it comes to light earlier rather than later.

Wolseley · 2025-12-08T21:35:25-0600

RamiC, bear in mind that **I**, personally, didn't say any of that; I was posting an article written by somebody else.

And that article is far from the first or the only place that I have seen such reports. It seems you and Larniavc can airily dismiss this all you like, but it still appears that things on the Sceptered Isle are far from peachy wonderful.

But, have it your way---okay, everything's ideal and couldn't be better; no problems at all. If someday in the near future I tune in and find that the whole shebang in the U.K. has gone down in flaming ruin, then I'll know who was right: you or them. Myself, I intend to stay right here in any case, where I have the God-given right and the means to defend myself with something stronger than stern language should things here go to Hades on a handcar.

I shall now retire from the discussion. Good luck, Hail Columbia, and Erin go bragh.

Michie · 2025-12-08T21:34:46-0600

Bishop Michael Duca has granted a dispensation from Sunday Mass attendance for immigrants fearing deportation in the Diocese of Baton Rouge, the fourth U.S. diocese to do so.

News of the dispensation comes amid heightened presence of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers in Louisiana as part of the Trump administration’s “Swamp Sweep,” which has been reported to include the deployment of 250 Border Patrol agents to the region and plans to arrest 5,000 individuals across Louisiana and Misssissipi.

“With the recent publicized arrival of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers into south Louisiana and greater Baton Rouge, and since many of the faithful genuinely fear immigration enforcement actions, thereby making it untenable for them to attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, I hereby grant a dispensation from the obligation to attend Mass for those Catholics rightfully afraid to participate in Mass because of their fear,” Duca said “with a heavy heart” in a pastoral letterdated Dec. 4.

The Baton Rouge bishop said the dispensation would remain “until the individual Catholic determines it is safe to attend Mass again” or until the dispensation is revoked.

Continued below.

Baton Rouge Diocese announces Sunday Mass dispensation for immigrants

Bishop Michael Duca granted a dispensation from Sunday Mass for immigrants fearing deportation in the Diocese of Baton Rouge, the fourth U.S. diocese to do so.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Servus · 2025-12-08T21:26:15-0600

Georgia Man is giving Florida Man some competition.

Michie · 2025-12-08T21:25:08-0600

For the past two years — while the war in Gaza has been taking place — all Christmas celebrations have been canceled in Bethlehem, the town where Jesus was born. However after the recent ceasefire, the famous town decided to have its Christmas celebrations return, starting with the lighting of the giant Christmas tree in front of the historic Church of the Nativity on Dec. 6.

“It’s been a bad two years of silence; no Christmas, no jobs, no work,” Bethlehem Mayor Maher Canawati said in an interview with the BBC. “We’re all living here from tourism, and tourism was down to zero.”

He added: “Some may say it’s not appropriate and others say it’s appropriate, but deep inside my heart, I felt that this was the right thing to do because Christmas should never be stopped or canceled. This is the light of hope for us.”

Beit Jala and Beit Sahour, two neighboring towns, will also be having Christmas tree lightings in the coming days. Hotels are also receiving more bookings from tourists as well as Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Continued below.

Bethlehem lights Christmas tree again while conflict still echoes nearby

The town of Bethlehem decided to have its Christmas celebrations return, starting with the lighting of the giant Christmas tree in front of the Church of the Nativity on Dec. 6.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Servus · 2025-12-08T21:22:48-0600

Florida Man at it again.

DamianWarS · 2025-12-08T21:18:22-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
No where in the entire Bible does it say God's laws written in the heart are a different law of God or the Law of Christ as if there is dichotomy between God and Christ and their laws. If there is than one automatically disqualifies themselves because the Scriptures say God's saints keep the commandments of God Rev14:12 and only those are reconciled back to God Rev22:14 those outside the comamndment breakers quoting directly from the Ten Commandments.

In Jesus own teachings He said when we lay aside the commandment of God and quoted directly from the Ten Commandments ones heart is far from Him, Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 because they have rejected the law of God and has made one an enmity to God Rom8:7-8. No wonder Jesus said when we do this it makes the word of God of no effect, because if we aren't believing God's Words- whose words are we replacing them with. Jesus did not say the Ten Comamndment ended not once nor did Paul. The definition of how to love God Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3 , did not get replaced by mans feelings. Love fulfills the law because when we love Jesus we keep His commandments John14:15 Exo20:6 1John5:3 and want to obey Him and allow Him to define His own Laws that He did plainly and claimed as His Exo20:6,. But believe as you wish, we will all have to be accountable for our teachings Mat5:19 and He will sort this out soon enough. Its time for me to move on but I wish you well .

I agree there’s no dichotomy between God and Christ. That’s exactly why the New Testament consistently speaks of one law under the New Covenant, the law of Christ written by the Spirit, not the Sinai covenant written on stone. The issue is not “God vs. Christ,” but old covenant vs. new covenant, which Hebrews, Paul, and Jesus all address.

Hebrews 8:13 explicitly says the covenant defined by the Ten Commandments (Deut 4:13) is obsolete and passing away. That doesn’t contradict God; it’s the covenant change God Himself promised. The NT never says the Sinai treaty becomes the New Covenant law. It affirms God’s righteousness, not the permanence of the stone-written covenant document.

Revelation 14:12 and 22:14 don’t quote the Ten Commandments; John uses “commandments of God” the same way he defines them elsewhere (1 John 3:23)—faith in Christ and love for one another. That’s the New Covenant shape of obedience, not a reinstallation of Sinai. And nothing in Mark 7 or Matthew 15 says the 10 continue as the covenant document; Jesus is condemning human tradition, not describing covenant structure.

Saying that Christians are not under the Sinai covenant is not “laying aside God’s commandments.” The NT repeatedly says believers obey Christ, walk by the Spirit, and fulfill the law through love (Rom 13:8–10; Gal 5:14). That is not rejecting God, it is exactly what the New Covenant teaches.

I respect that you’re ready to move on, so I’ll leave it here too. But the distinction I’m making comes directly from Scripture: the old covenant engraved on stone has ended (Heb 8; 2 Cor 3), and the New Covenant law is written by the Spirit, not defined by the Sinai tablets.

Servus · 2025-12-08T21:17:04-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
The United States has been waging a "war on drugs" since the 1970s. Efforts have included punishing both drug sellers and users, as well as covertly attempting to destroy sources of drugs in Latin America. So far, these strategies have not proven effective. It appears that the USA consumes more drugs than any other country.

Do Americans use illegal drugs more than other industrialized countries because of their proximity to certain borders? We hear that much fentanyl comes from Canada and China, but why don't Canadians use it themselves? And with China's population being three times larger than the U.S., why don't they face similar fentanyl issues?

You obviously have a specific reason in mind. So spit it out because I'm not going to play the guessing game approch, even if I'm sure I know what someone's getting at.

Dale · 2025-12-08T21:09:42-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Peter carried a sword -

Pretty much everyone has the ability to carry - it is not uncommon to see people exercising their rights daily. It's a great place to live for a number of reasons - but lots of people carry - you are incorrect in your assumption. There are some affluent area's but the vast majority is middle income. Just like me.

In Chicago perhaps? - oh, wait - they have more guns - just not legal.

Got proof for such a statement?

I'm proof positive - Grew up in NY - I've carried concealed since 1981, college grad, Married to a beautiful woman (college grad) who carries occasionally - I have six children with the exception of one - we all have the ability to carry - (no Hunters).

I am fortunate to live here. Low Taxes - strong family values - strong conservative area - four Christian Universities - great schools where they still pray with the kids. And freedom to carry openly.

Sure there are some who do not carry - but I'd suspect they are in the minority.

When Fantine commented that “Fewer educated people own guns” you asked, “Got proof for such a statement?”

I think I am quoting the same source that Fantine used, but here it is.

<< Overall, about three-in-ten adults with a high school diploma or less (31%) and 34% of those with some college education say they own a gun; a quarter of those with a bachelor’s degree or more say the same. Among whites, about four-in-ten of those with a high school diploma or less (40%) or with some college (42%) are gun owners, compared with roughly a quarter of white college graduates (26%). >>

To summarize:

Adults with High School Diploma
31% own a gun

Adults with some College
34% own a gun

...with Bachelor’s Degree or more
25% own a gun

Pew Research gives further statistics but I will stop here for simplicity.

Source:
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

The Liturgist · 2025-12-08T21:09:32-0600

prodromos said:
As much as I love the Red Hot Chilli Peppers

I dislike all rock music. The only secular music I can handle is classical and jazz, although I prefer above all the hymns of the Divine Liturgy, particularly when sung in Greek, Georgian, Latin, Romanian, Coptic, Ge’ez, Armenian and especially Classical Syriac neo-Aramaic and Church Slavonic.

peter2 · 2025-12-08T21:04:25-0600

eleos1954 said:
Mary's faith was deep, but her human perspective struggled with the paradox of the Messiah's suffering

Actually, i understand what you say, and would fully agree, had you tell this about one of his male disciples.
But Mary is a female person, with a female sensitivity, then.
i mean : she knows how men pretend to feel no pain at the very moment of their sufferings. It's their conception of virility.
Indeed, it sounds like Jesus' sorrows on the cross also was an expression of all the pains men hide to look virile. About the meditative Mary, i doubt a little she was duped by these pretendings of men.

What's more, she also was a mother : i assume she had good reasons to worry for the 12 year old Jesus' sake when they looked for him. She knew danger does exist ; Didn't they have to flee to Egypt to escape massacre ? If non vulnerable, would they have had to ?

As believer of Gabriel' speech, finally though, she believed his reign was supposed to happen for ever. This is more where i suppose lies a paradox

eleos1954 said:
the paradox of the Messiah's suffering

Indeed,
She could have wondered of what need is death (or suffering, yes..) for an everlasting reign ?

Basil the Great · 2025-12-08T21:01:30-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
And you would be extremely wrong to think that philosophy is, in whole, mutually exclusive to Christian theology.

You might want to keep in mind that, actually, the undertaking of biblical systematic theology REQUIRES the application of some points of the wide (very, very wide) field of Philosophy.

You would be right to say that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura, and I'd go on record to in fact say that in order to be saved, no one needs to. God is bigger than the rag tag collection of letters and books we call the New Testament, after all, and I'll continue to take my measures for what constitutes 'good theology' from many Christian scholars (and ministers) rather than ................... only one local minister.

And in saying all of the above, I'll continue on in my viewpoint and do so with the same outlook and attitude of Copernicus who said, and I quote, "There may be babblers, wholly ignorant of mathematics, who dare to condemn my hypothesis, upon the authority of some part of the Bible twisted to suit their purpose. I value them not, and scorn their unfounded judgment.”

I beg to differ on this point. How can anyone have "sound theology" by believing in a social bubble, with little or no education in the area of Hermeneutics, Biblical Exegesis, and Church History??? ............ by special pleading about one's special, personal revelations or by the special abilities of one's singular local minister? I think not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously. I never said salvation is exactly congruent with "how well" we know the Scriptures. It's also not exactly congruent with a set of presuppositions attuned solely and only to, shall we say, a more Calvinistic leaning.

And neither is God impressed with anyone's SPIRITUAL ZEAL that persists without KNOWLEDGE.

Well then, with that, have a Merry Christmas!

Indeed, and as Tiny Tim observed, God bless us, ereryone!

Basil the Great · 2025-12-08T20:59:29-0600

I had a friend many years ago tell me that the Elijah prophecy has been fullfilled, since John the Baptist came with the spirit and power of Elijah. He based his claim on Luke 1:17. However, Malachi did not say that God would send a man with the spirit and power of Elijah, did he? No, Malachi said that God would send Elijah. Hence, we appear to have a mystery here.

ARBITER01 · 2025-12-08T20:53:26-0600

Dikaioumenoi said:
1 John 5:1a reads:

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ Χριστός, ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται
("Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")

A few grammatical observations:

First, ὁ πιστεύων is a present active participle functioning substantively: "the one who is believing." The participle presents the subject, and describes a present, ongoing activity rather than a completed act of faith.

Second, γεγέννηται, the main verb of the clause, is a perfect passive indicative: "has been begotten" or "has been born [of God]." The perfect tense is more than just a "past" tense. Its aspectual function specifically points to a completed action in the past whose effects continue into the present.

When the two forms are set in relation to each other, especially with the present participle functioning substantively -- that is, as the subject of the main verb -- the natural sense is that the person who now believes does so as one who has already been born of God. The grammar, therefore, suggests a logical ordering in which the new birth precedes the act of believing.

This does not, of course, deny the simultaneous experience of these realities in human perception, but grammatically the text places regeneration as the root (the logical grounds) and believing as its fruit.

Hmmmm,..... interesting.

Let's see what other sections of scripture say,....

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we proclaim:
Rom 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We always compare scripture with scripture to get the proper understanding, we never cherry pick one verse out and then try to build our theology around it with Greek tenses.

Maria Billingsley · 2025-12-08T20:51:35-0600

Hentenza said:
The writings of Ellen White, a prophet of the Seventh Day Adventist church, teach that those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast and will reject the seal of God. In other words, the vast majority of Christians are doomed for worshipping our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Here are her writings:

Reception of Mark of the Beast Future—The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. The mark of the beast is the papal sabbath, which has been accepted by the world in the place of the day of God’s appointment. Ev 234.1
No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast. Ev 234.2
With rapid steps we are approaching this period. When Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will the papal sabbath be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin.—Manuscript 51, 1899. Ev 235.1
When Seal of God Is Refused—If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the false sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls “My holy day,” you receive the mark of the beast. When does this take place? When you obey the decree that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God.—The Review and Herald, July 13, 1897. Ev 235.2
As a Result of Disregard of Light—God has given men the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them, as a test of their loyalty. Those who, after the light regarding God’s law comes to them, continue to disobey and exalt human laws above the law of God in the great crisis before us will receive the mark of the beast.—Letter 98, 1900. Ev 235.3
Caution in Presenting the Sunday Question—[We are] not to provoke those who have accepted this spurious sabbath, an institution of the Papacy in the place of God’s holy Sabbath. Their not having the Bible arguments in their favor makes them all the more angry and determined to supply the place of arguments that are wanting in the Word of God by the power of their might. The force of persecution follows the steps of the dragon. Therefore great care should be exercised to give no provocation.—Letter 55, 1886. Ev 235.4
Let the Truth Do the Cutting—Satan’s efforts against the advocates of the truth will wax more bitter and determined to the very close of time. As in Christ’s day the chief priests and rulers stirred up the people against Him, so today the religious leaders will excite bitterness and prejudice against the truth for this time. The people will be led to acts of violence and opposition which they would never have thought of had they not been imbued with the animosity of professed Christians against the truth. Ev 236.1
And what course shall the advocates of truth pursue? They have the unchangeable, eternal Word of God, and they should reveal the fact that they have the truth as it is in Jesus. Their words must not be rugged and sharp. In their presentation of truth they must manifest the love and meekness and gentleness of Christ. Let the truth do the cutting; the Word of God is as a sharp, two-edged sword, and will cut its way to the heart. Those who know that they have the truth should not, by the use of harsh and severe expressions, give Satan one chance to misinterpret their spirit.—The Review and Herald, October 14, 1902. Ev 236.2
A Call to Enlighten the Masses—I have been shown that Satan is stealing a march upon us. The law of God, through the agency of Satan, is to be made void. In our land of boasted freedom, religious liberty will come to an end. The contest will be decided over the Sabbath question, which will agitate the whole world. Ev 236.3
Our time for work is limited, and God calls us as ministers and people to be minutemen. Teachers as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves must come to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty. There are many who do not understand the prophecies relating to these days, and they must be enlightened.—Letter 1, 1875. Ev 237.1

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Presenting God’s last warning message to a doomed world is the “highest, greatest work” ever given to human beings. This comprehensive handbook on ev…

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Is Ellen White correct? Are those that worship our Lord on Sunday doomed to receive the mark of the beast?

It is truly exhausting to hear insistent claims across denominations that observing the Jewish Sabbath remains a salvation issue. Respecting the conviction of others, my soul finds peace not in a day, but in every day alike, the finality of the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This observance is lifted by the truth that Christ is the culmination of the Law for righteousness (Romans 10:4), rendering this ordinance fulfiled in Him. Scripture clearly states that such days are a shadow but the substance is of Christ and in Him, we find our eternal rest. Let those who observe the Sabbath observe it for God and let those who observe it everyday, likewise for God.
Blessings

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-08T20:41:48-0600

martinlb said:
My sigh was over receiving what felt like reactive responses, with no evidence of any interest or curiosity.

Moving on from that, I don't understand the reason for your reference to the great commission? What were you saying with that? I'm asking out of wanting to understand; it's not a challenge.

And I certainly agree with the difficulty of changing tradition ... whether it's helpful and productive or not. I believe the gospels pretty much tell us that's true.

You said something about old English being a stumbling block when reaching out to people. I interpreted it as you wanted to fulfill the Great Commission, as some do. Only problem is that the Great Commission has been achieved, by the Apostolic Church, as the gospel has already reached the ends of the earth. Moreover, the foundational structure of the Church has already been laid. So anything you want to change there, you have to first be ordained a priest from someone who has been ordained by the Apostolic Succession.

Anything else is just witnessing, and you’re free to use whatever language and translations you wish.

partinobodycular · 2025-12-08T20:40:03-0600

stevevw said:
But is not this just your belief itself.

Actually, no. I'm among the vast number of people that think that demons are purely metaphorical at best. But as you say, I'm just an outsider looking in so my opinion is worthless. Which is why I referred to the teachings of more mainstream Christian denominations among whom the belief in demons and their presence here on earth is quite prevalent.

If you have a problem with the teaching you'll have to take it up with them. And unless you're claiming some greater authority on the subject it's to them that I'll have to defer.

So my position holds, what kind of a loving God would place me in a world filled with fallen angels and demons, and then expect me to worship Him for doing so?

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