• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Desperate Mullahs of Iran

Speculation.
The word "attempt" in his post shifts the perspective from speculation as in "That Iran will fire nuke missiles at Israel, is sure" to a position of greater certainty. There is absolutely no doubt that Iran is working overtime to creative nuclear armaments. What is the purpose of those armaments if not to "defend" itself from its enemies as well as attack them? What greater enemy to Iran has Iran defined than the nation of Israel?
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Altar boy goes into hiding, could face death penalty over false allegation

A Christian altar boy in Pakistan has gone into hiding and could face the death penalty after he was accused of posting content on Facebook that some Muslims found offensive. He has denied the allegations and claims his own uncle created a fake account in his name.

Religious freedom advocates are raising alarm about the case of Asher Bhatti, a resident of the Nishter neighborhood in Lahore, accused of blasphemy along with his uncle.

A police complaint was filed against Bhatti and his uncle, Samuel Paul, on Sept. 16 by a resident named Muhammad Umair, who alleges the “Asher Bhatti” Facebook account shared material that blasphemed the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The complaint alleged that the content caused public outrage among the local Muslim population.

Umair seeks prosecution of Bhatti and his uncle under Section 295-C of Pakistan’s penal code, a provision of the blasphemy law that is punishable by the death penalty or life in prison.

Religious freedom advocates have long criticized Pakistan’s blasphemy laws, saying Muslims too easily abuse them to settle personal scores or target religious minorities.

Continued below.

Struggling with Anger and Feelings of Unfairness at Work

I would like to ask for prayer regarding something that happened at work today. My boss gave a beautiful cake to one of my colleagues, and I asked if I could have one too. However, she gave me a much cheaper one instead. I ended up rejecting it, and since then I’ve been feeling very upset and angry about it.

I know this may seem like a small matter, but it really hurt me. I’ve been working at this company for almost six years, always giving my best. I often contribute a lot, and my English is stronger, so I help in many areas. My colleague, who received the nicer cake, struggles more with her work and communication. I do honour and respect her, but deep down I feel that the situation was unfair.

Part of the reason I wanted that cake was because my father will be hospitalized next week for surgery, and I had hoped to share that cake with him this weekend as something meaningful before his operation. Now it’s too late, and I feel disappointed.

I’ve tried listening to Christian hymns to calm down, but I’m still very angry and find it hard to let go. I truly love my workplace, my customers, and the environment, and I don’t wish to leave. I just need prayer for peace in my heart — to release these feelings of anger and hurt, to forgive easily, and to remember that God sees every small detail of our lives, even when others don’t.

Please pray that I can find rest in the Lord, trust His justice and timing, and feel His love more deeply than my frustration.
Thank you so much for praying for me.

Trump is right to clamp down on Portland’s Jacobins

President Donald Trump ordered the National Guard to “war ravaged Portland” last week in a move that has been a long time in coming.

Federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities have been besieged for months in the Oregon city with little indication that local authorities will do anything to get control of the situation.

In early September, after a serious anti-ICE riot in which protesters violently clashed with police, Portland Mayor Keith Wilson said that he would do nothing to help the federal government enforce the law and would protect the city’s “sanctuary” status for illegal aliens.

“We will not engage with the federal immigration enforcement that goes on,” Wilson said, according to KOIN 6 News. “That is our sanctuary city goals; that is what the governor’s goals are. So you can rest assured we won’t be engaging with or working with ICE in any circumstances.”

That came after Portland’s city council plotted earlier in the year not to stop the violence but to eject ICE from the city.

It couldn’t be clearer that Portland’s leaders have little interest in getting the rioters under control outside of pressure from the Trump administration.

Now, Oregon Democrats and their legacy media defenders are doing their best to spin a tale that Portland has no problems at all, and this is just the Trump administration being real mean.

Continued below.

Selfishness

Yes. Such as stealing bread when your family is starving....where have I heard from that before? Hmmm....
To steal is to take w/o permit the property of another who has the right to possess it. One who is starving may take the food of another who possesses surplus food. Such an act is not one of theft under the universal right of all to life and the created goods to sustain it.
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The Schumer Shutdown

Centuries? The welfare state didn't start until after 1925.

We dont need or want a welfare state.

We need to help those who are truly needy. Far too many Americans aren't really needy and are still on the taxpayers dole.

Compassion is not in handouts when they cause dependency.

There are those that REALLY need our help. I'm happy to give it. But I bet we could cut our welfare in half through work and education programs. We could end up not needing all those illegals.
Quite right. It is a basic tenet of Neoliberalism that a worker should receive no benefits except from the hand of his employer.
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Does the Charlie Kirk murder makes you thirst for vengeance?

The assassination of Charlie Kirk is an inflection point in American history. He is the first non-public office holder assassinated in the United States since Martin Luther King Jr. Ironically, both were public figures who called for nonviolence. Just as the senseless death of Dr. King sparked the transformational Civil Rights movement, it is certain that much good will come from the senseless killing of Charlie Kirk. But we must resist the temptation to react with anger, bitterness, name-calling, and violence.

I propose that those of us who name the name of Christ learn to fight for peace using genuine love as our weapon without compromising truth or justice.

Grace for enemies

The polarization between those who loved Charlie Kirk and those who loathed him has made the once invisible war of worldviews now visible. We can see it with our own eyes. It is visceral and disturbing. Both sides see the other as the fascists, the haters, and the deceived. This is a very dangerous cultural moment. We are in an “us-versus-them” frame of mind. We are not seeing people on the other side of the divide. Ideology and language are painting each other in broad strokes, leading to rejection and condemnation.

Our faith informs us that the most potent and powerful way to push back darkness is with sincere love and truth. This does not mean we accept evil. Sin has consequences. But it does mean we are not free to fight evil with evil. As many have noted, if we still practiced the law of “eye for an eye,” the entire world would be blind. None of us is without sin, and we must show grace to the sinner and allow justice from our legal system to do its work as needed.

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you” (Luke 6:27 NIV).

Lessons from Rwanda


Continued below.

Doug Wilson's view on Christian marriage is blasphemous

“The sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party: A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”

If that’s not a statement written by a man that is a selfish and uncaring lover that never cared to learn what it meant to engage of the unitive act of marriage… I don’t know what is. Yuck.
  • Agree
Reactions: PloverWing
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Why we Christians still have to struggle with sins?

Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25)
Making sure that I take care of my family the best that I can and not unduly burden the church with my temporal neccesities
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what
shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
The Lord’s words in Matthew 16:25–26 are not teaching that eternal life is earned by our own obedience to commandments and statutes, but that true faith in Him produces a transformed life. Jesus is contrasting the one who clings to self and worldly gain with the one who trusts Him even unto death. Salvation is never conditioned on human works, for Scripture says plainly, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). The call to “lose one’s life” is the call of faith—to lay aside self-reliance and worldly trust and to embrace Christ as Lord and Savior. Good fruits will indeed follow, but they are the evidence of salvation, not the grounds of it: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works” (Ephesians 2:10). Therefore, Jesus’ warning about gaining the world and losing the soul is not a command to secure eternal life by our own law-keeping, but an invitation to forsake empty self-sufficiency and receive His righteousness by faith.
Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection. And some of you won’t even give up some of the littlest things like, going to church on Sunday, the pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter, praying to the Virgin Mary, I could go on and on. And most so-called Christians know these rituals have nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible, but a lot of work get put into them. But do they understand that they are offensive to God? Maybe it’s because they have more faith in man than God, maybe it’s because they fear how man is going to treat them, and don’t fear God. But listen up; (v.27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Now these are the words of Jesus (the Son of man), you know the savior of the world. He said that when he comes he is going to judge every man according to his works. Don't be deceived thinking you all you need to do is have faith in the Lord and you will be saved?
Through faith in Christ, His perfect righteousness is imputed to believers, not earned by our works but freely given as a gift of grace. Paul writes, “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous” (Romans 5:19). Just as Adam’s sin was imputed to all mankind, bringing condemnation, so Christ’s obedience is imputed to all who believe, bringing justification. This righteousness is not our own but is credited to us: “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith” (Philippians 3:9). In this way, God declares the believer righteous, clothing us with Christ’s obedience so that we stand faultless before Him.
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The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

The new covenant is in effect because of the.old covenant, which showed there was to be the new covenant, with what was foreshadowed in it. There was the priesthood, because Christ who was the real priest being foreshadowed fulfilled it. There was sacrifices of creatures permitted because Christ the real sacrifice for effective atonement fulfilled it. There were ways to be made ritually clean because Christ in whom we can be washed in the way needed to come to God fulfilled them. None of this changes what is shown of God's will through commandments with God's mind changed. God does not change, from what was shown in the very beginning.
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Noah way?

I really, really, do not want to say there are gaps in biblical genealogy where there is not such suggested. But seeing gaps is unavoidable, we would see it going over the genealogy of Jesus where it is shown in Matthew, with kings shown in old testament history missing from it, that a sequence of fourteen generations are shown. Even Luke's genealogy that is shown is not absolutely in agreement where genealogy for that part is shown in Genesis. And in Exodus 6:16-26 the genealogical sequence does not account for the centuries between Joseph and his brothers that had come to Egypt and the time of Moses who led the people who descended from Israel out from Egypt in the Exodus. It was said to be 430 years. Even ages of kings when their sons who would be king after were then born, in what we have shown in the Bible, is very suspicious. Consider Hezekiah's birth to his father. How old was his father then?
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The Time Has Come to Upgrade 2A

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"
2nd Amendment

I'm a 2nd amendment supporter....even though I don't own guns,
Each time a sad situation happens by Criminals with evil hearts, it strengthens my support of the 2nd amendment.
I fully support those who do and are responsible gun owners.
During my life not one of the many that I have known who owns guns have ever misused a gun.
I've went target shooting. No one was ever at risk of being shot unless I would have aimed the gun at them. But that's not how you do it...nor is that my heart!! That is key in situations where someone misuses a gun, it's the person's heart.
A Criminal's heart is different. It's mainly the Left who want to focus on the object, not the real problem which are Criminals and their hearts.
Responsible gun owners are not a threat to any innocent person...none at all.
The real problem isn't the guns...anymore than it is when any other object a person chooses to harm innocent people with is used.
One example...Darrell Brooks on 11/21/21 at the Waukesha Christmas parade. He drove an suv into a crowd of people and kept driving, this resulted in the deaths of 6 people and injuries to 62 others. Plus there have been other vehicles used to run over groups of people...so if it's the object, let's ban vehicles.
Once a person has the intent to misuse a firearm or any other potentially deadly object on innocent people and do, they...not the object used...is the problem.
Responsible gun owners are not a threat to any innocent person at all. You put a gun in the corner and leave it. It will hurt no innocent person sitting there unless a person with bad intent picks it up.
Also, a gun is not going to pick itself up, load itself and harm an innocent person by itself. That takes a Criminal heart.....that should be the focus.
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Controversial Nicolas Cage movie about Jesus is blasted by outraged Christians

Nicolas Cage's upcoming controversial biblical horror film about Jesus' childhood has been blasted by Christians and labeled as 'blasphemous.'

Earlier this week on Wednesday, the first official trailer for The Carpenter's Son was dropped to mixed reception- and showed the 61-year-old actor taking on the role of Joseph.

The unconventional retelling of the biblical story - which will be released in theaters on November 14 - is based on the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas according to writer and director Lofty Nathan.

Since the film's initial announcement, some have slammed the project on social media while one accused Hollywood of turning 'scripture into horror.'

On Google Reviews, the movie currently holds a 1.3/5 rating - over a month before it premieres in theaters.

'I will not see this movie,' one penned on Google. 'A horror movie about Jesus is just not right.

Continued below.

I usually don't watch movies about Jesus because too many liberties are taken by Hollywood.
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OSAS - I was wrong...again

How does one have sinfulness and not tell us all the details about it here, or is it a shame to speak of what is committed in the dark in secret, by people who say they are following the light which neither hides anything nor has to be covered up or to be ashamed of what causes DEATH/light causing no SHAME.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the END OF THOSE THINGS IS DEATH.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Belief is how to not be ashamed, also by for the same sanctification so that Christ is not ashamed to call us brothers.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
I am not being deceitful here, but you are. It is evident that you know that teaching sinless perfection is forbidden on this sight because you are preaching its requirements while being careful to not state it directly. Not only is this deceitful, but it also is rule-breaking. Honesty is the best policy, even when it is inconvenient.
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Priest explains why there is no hell

I thought the face looked familiar but I couldn't remember his name until someone brought up Bishop Spong.

He was far more familiar back in my Protestant days in the 1980's until about 1996 or 1997. I never read any of his stuff, although my old pastor (who was conservative to his boot laces) gave him this much credit saying "His heart is in the right place".

Having seen my father screaming his head off when he turned up the night he died I differ from Bishop Spong as to whether Hell exists or not. This earth gives hints of Hell even if we can't see the real thing - the Gestapo, Holocaust, nuclear explosions, rape, murder, torture, the Gulags, Pol Pot's Ground Zero and all the rest.

It exists all right.
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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

As opposed to your methodology using verses to eliminate ALL the multiple verses that don't fit your position?
Do you even know what hermeneutics is? You use verses completely out of context which is why is so simple to refute your position.
What makes you think the statement of 1 John 4:7 is eliminated by what comes after?
Is not eliminated, the meaning and interpretation is clarified. Verses are not read and interpreted in an island.
What makes you think you can draw a line between God and Love? You think Love requires some contrived doctrine attached to make Love valid? I don't think so.
I’m not the one drawing a line it is you drawing the line and teaching a false doctrine devoid of biblical backing. You make things up as you go.
Tiny created you just make the God of all creation completely worthless for anyone unless "that tiny little person" makes God valid.
This is a perfect example of your inability to have a civil conversation. I’m not wasting my time any longer.
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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !

Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That fact Glorifies God the Father ! 3
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BUSTED - 12 False theories refuted:

Bible Prophecy states many times the hard times we will all face before Jesus Returns. 1 Peter 4:12,, Isaiah 17:14 In the evening all is terror, in the morning it is gone. Such is the fate of our enemies, the lot of our plunderers.

Good and evil WILL be found within all of us. We can especially BANK ON the latter.
Don't you want to know what God has planned for His Peoples? Before Satan and his minions are cremated.
Already stated by Paul. ALL of Israel shall be saved.

As to your flesh only sight I wouldn't give 2 cents worth of credence.

The JEW is a JEW inside the box. That's where the Son of Promise will arise from. Inside. And it will be quick, and enmasse ala 1 Cor. 15:51, 2 Cor. 3:18

The Spirit of the Lord will CHANGE US and DESTROY our enemies, the devil and his messengers.

All this lollygag nonsense about physical temples and physical tribes are simply external physical sights that have NO PLACE in understanding spiritual things other than to prove their hollowness of understandings
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Prayers for the Departed

Friday

O LORD God almighty, I pray Thee, by the Precious Blood which Thy divine Son shed on this day upon the wood of the Cross, especially from His most sacred hands and feet, deliver the souls in purgatory, and in particular that soul for which I am most bound to pray: that no neglect of mine may hinder it from praising Thee in Thy glory and blessing Thee forever. Amen.

Our Father .. Hail Mary .. De Profundis & Eternal Rest

(Invoke St. Nicholas of Tolentino, Patron of the Holy Souls)
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The Testing of Your Faith

“In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.” (1 Peter 1:6-9 NASB1995)

A Parable of Sorts

The Lord Jesus is giving me a physical illustration of this today, with a spiritual parallel, so this will be kind of like a parable of sorts. And here is the physical situation:

About two weeks ago I started having very sharp pains in my chest, on the left side, where a tumor has been located in my lung for the past 11 years. It had not grown in the first two years, so they never looked at it again. Nine years later it has now been discovered that the tumor is nearly doubled in size, and that the sharp pain in my chest is located in the exact location of the tumor. But I also have labored breathing and chest pressure, so it is under consideration that the tumor could be what is causing all of this.

A series of tests was ordered for me by my doctor, and yesterday I had my first test, which was a breathing test. I am breathing at 44% of 100% breathing capacity, and so the doctor diagnosed me with COPD, stage 3. But this was without considering the tumor and its role in my breathing issue. And today he wants to run a more vigorous breathing test, and I just realized last night that he wants to give me a drug in this process, but after I had already told him that I don’t take medications, so that has to change.

Next week I am lined up for 4 more tests including an MRI of my brain, an ultrasound of my thyroid, an ultrasound of my heart, and a PET scan of my entire body to check for cancer. All these involve some kind of electronic imaging or radio waves, and the last one involves them putting a radioactive tracer in my body to show up any potential areas of my body where cancer might be detected. I had this done 11 years ago, and I survived it then, so I pray I will survive it again, but 4 of these in a row might be quite rough.

The Spiritual Parallel

The passage of Scripture speaks of being distressed by various trials which test our faith to see whether or not it is genuine God honoring faith which will result in genuine biblical salvation from sin and eternal life with God.

So, here is the parallel. I have a particular set of symptoms that I am aware of, but without these tests I have no way of proving they exist so that they can be resolved. Yes, I know that my God is my healer, and he could choose to just heal me, but that is not the course he has decided on for me at this moment. And these tests will have an element of pain and risk involved in them, but they are necessary in order to discover what is really going on inside my body, in order to make a correct prognosis, in order to know the correct way in which to resolve these issues, all under God’s direction.

And this parallels over to what this passage is teaching. We need our faith to be tested so that we can see where we have issues that need to be resolved so that we can find the correct solutions (biblical solutions) and to put those into practice. For some people, although they profess faith in Christ, they are still walking in sin, in sinful addictions, and the only way they will ever be free of their addiction to sin is to go through a painful process of testing and examining what is in their hearts so that they can get victory over darkness.

And yes, that will be a painful process, but without the examinations which look closely at what is going on inside the person, and to identifying the problem (the cancer, the tumor, spiritually speaking), and to learning the correct path for getting the sin cancer removed from the heart, there will never be victory over sin and freedom from bondage. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person (see Luke 6:45; Matthew 15:17-20).

Masking The Sin

Now, going back to my situation for a moment. I just realized last night that the additional breathing test scheduled for today is intended to be followed by an unknown (to me) medication to see if that improves the breathing. Now, I have been pharmaceutical dependent free for 17 years, by the grace of God, and I made clear to them yesterday that I do not take medicines, for drugs can be harmful, especially since it is known that I have a lung tumor, and it can just mask the situation and then not really deal with the problem.

And this, sadly, is what is often being done on a spiritual level to solve sinful addictive practices, to mask over the problem and then to not really get to the root of what is causing the sin issue. And this might be done via the use of literal drugs (narcotics) or via psychology or false teachings and false gospel messages which give people a false hope of salvation from sin and of eternal life with God. And they do this via diluting the gospel to make it less offensive and more comfortable for the sinner to continue in deliberate sin.

But the only way to true biblical freedom from our slavery to sin is to do the heart examination, to see what is in our hearts which is preventing us from surrendering our lives to the Lord in walks of obedience to his commands, and then to follow God’s biblical instructions on what we must do to be free from our addiction to sin. And his only resolution is that we must, by God-gifted faith in the Lord Jesus, die with Christ to sin, and now follow him in obedience to his commands. We must repent of (turn away from) our sins and have a change of heart and mind resulting in a change of behavior.

For if we continue to hold on to whatever is stored in our hearts, i.e. that which is against God and his holiness, and which is leading us into sin, then we will never be free from our slavery to sin, and so we will not have salvation from sin nor eternal life with God. But if we let the Lord show us what is stored up in our hearts, and if we follow his solution for getting the evil out of our hearts, and so we repent of (turn from) our sins and we now obey our Lord and his commands, in practice, then we have life in Christ.

[Matthew 7:13-14,21-23; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-30; Acts 26:18; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-10; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-22; Galatians 5:16-24; Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-6; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 3:1-19; Hebrews 4:1-13; Hebrews 10:19-39; Hebrews 12:1-2; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 1:1-10; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 2:1-29; Revelation 3:1-22]

As the Deer

By Martin J. Nystrom
Based off Psalm 42:1


As the deer panteth for the water
So my soul longeth after You
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship You

You alone are my strength, my shield
To You alone may my spirit yield
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship You

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The Testing of Your Faith
An Original Work / October 3, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

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