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Akita Suggagaki · 2025-11-20T21:12:59-0600

dlamberth said:
From what I've seen, it depends on the depth of a person's own inner experience of deep consciousness.

As a meditator now of 50 years I cannot say I have an answer. Some deep silence and stillness, awareness without “thought” samadhi style. Something there but without faith to help interpret the experience it seems more of a silent void. John of the cross apophatic realm. Perhaps like the awareness of a molecule o lets get fancy and say monad.

keras · 2025-11-20T21:07:45-0600

jonojim1337 said:
it is not related to current state in Palestine.

Does what the Bible Prophets tell us, have no real meaning for you, or others here. Is it all just Spiritual?
The Prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 was really fulfilled. How can people say other Prophesies, obviously unfulfilled, but which can, feasibly be fulfilled; will not be?

The current situation in the Middle East, is untenable and cannot continue. God has said that He is going to resolve it. Jeremiah 12:14, +
I say: Bring it on Lord!

eclipsenow · 2025-11-20T21:06:24-0600

essentialsaltes said:
Experts have long viewed thorium reactors as the next leap in energy innovation. Some scientists estimate that a single thorium-rich mine in Inner Mongolia could theoretically supply China’s energy needs for tens of thousands of years with far less radioactive waste than current uranium-based reactors.

Having never studied physics, it took quite a few conversations to get my head around this tech.

THE CAMPFIRE
Nuclear waste does NOT have to be stored for 100,000 years. The only reason it is radioactive for so long is we have not got all the energy out of it. I’m no physicist and got the following metaphor from chatting with them. But after a regular uranium fuel rod has been in a reactor for about 18 months, it stops fissioning efficiently. It has not run out of energy, but instead is being stopped by ‘nuclear poisons’ - things that dampened the reaction. It’s a bit like a huge campfire that gets rained on. The fire is put out, but the fuel is still there. Only in this case, ‘drying out’ the ‘logs’ involves melting down the fuel rods, separating out the good ‘wood’, and then ‘drying’ it around the reactor core (where the fertile stuff can soak up extra neutrons to become fissile). As a result, breeder reactors can get something like 90 TIMES the energy out of each fuel rod! America has enough waste to run her for thousands of years.

There are many differences between standard fuel rods using uranium, and liquid thorium molten salt reactors - including RADICAL safety advantages. But one of them is my metaphor breaks down, because it's like the 'drying out the logs' process happens continually. They have the liquids in a self-cleaning loop in many models.

WHAT ABOUT THE ‘ASHES’ FROM THIS ‘CAMPFIRE?’
Some of the nuclear fuel is fissioned away into energy. (That’s what E = MC2 is all about.) By the time all the energy has been extracted this way, it’s only about a golf-ball of waste per human lifetime of abundant clean energy! Your whole life. One golf ball! That’s amazing!
So, what to do with the REAL waste - the broken atoms that cannot be fissioned any more?
We can melt it down into glass like ceramic tablets that contain it. (If there’s ever an earthquake or unanticipated event, we don’t want radioactive dust getting out into the water table, etc.) Bury these bricks in a bunker on site, and in about 300 years they are safe! The hotter it is, the faster it burns out. See this Argonne Labs video - 4 minutes. Login to view embedded media
Not only this, but they can also supply many medical radioactive isotopes useful for nuclear medicine.
It's an amazing technology. But they're going to have to work hard to bring the cost down, because solar panels are expected to halve in price AGAIN by 2030!

A Devil's Advocate · 2025-11-20T21:04:49-0600

The Liturgist said:
your argument implies God as being one Person, when He is one God abiding in Three persons,

A Devil's Advocate said:
God is revealed to us in three persons, but all are still one God.

This is from earlier in that same post. I do not believe God to be one person. That makes no sense. I believe God to be one God revealed to us in three persons. I think you may have miss read.

If I believe in the Holy Spirit, do I not also believe in God? Same with Jesus. If I believe in Jesus, am I not also believing in God?

The Liturgist said:
In declaring that no one comes to the Father except through Him, Christ is declaring the doctrine of the Incarnation - that through Him, the Father, who is invisible, has made Himself visible, in the Prosopon of His only begotten Son and Word, who, in putting on our human form, remade us in His image on the Cross, and demonstrated God’s willingness to die to save humanity.

Maybe I am miss reading this, but this statement tells me that Christ, putting on our human form, was still God dying to save humanity.

NxNW · 2025-11-20T21:01:28-0600

There is a series called Drain the Oceans, in which they use sonar and other high resolution imagery to investigate oceanic and sea-related mysteries. Bermuda Triangle, shipwrecks, etc. The Nessie episode discusses how the waves can create an optical illusion under some circumstances, that resembles a creature on the water. The famous photo is now known to be a hoax.

Yttrium · 2025-11-20T20:58:52-0600

Are we talking about philosophical nothingness? A state of complete non-existence? If there was nothing, then nothing would exist, and if nothing existed, it couldn't be nothing.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-11-20T20:57:41-0600

Hm. I have deleted in the past but don’t see the option now.

Mark Quayle · 2025-11-20T20:56:49-0600

Fervent said:
God didn't make you gay, life in a sinful world created the cocktail of early developmental factors that inclined you towards homosexuality and the accumulation of your choices solidified that inclination. Sexuality isn't as rigid as homosexual activists claim it to be, so there is hope that through making the right choices and continued prayer you can be set free of the trap.

Well said, bro. It is remarkable to me how modern representatives of Romans 1 have taken over the seat of authority.

They are actually teaching pubescent (and even prepubescent) teens that the feelings they get that seem occasionally at odds with their plumbing indicates that their plumbing is at fault. Not so! Wayward urges of hormones are not indicative of anything but wayward urges of hormones.

The body is constantly being trained, but the older one gets, the more difficult it is to change habits of thinking and behavior. But the Grace of God is amazing.

For what it is worth, @Creativeguy , pursuing Christ ("come unto me and learn of me") can be simultaneously the most joyful and miserable thing! He will never forsake you. But you will learn of his incomprehensible grace in the face of the depravity of "the flesh". And re-learn again and again that what Jesus said is not hyperbole: "Apart from me you can do nothing". He is not a mere co-pilot but the very reason for your existence and the means by which your existence continues. Your life belongs to him, and not yourself.

Pray for relief. Pray without ceasing.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-11-20T20:55:17-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
As an FYI, this topic is already being discussed here

"Don't Give up the Ship"

Members of Congress, comprised of former US Military and Intelligence officers, released a video this week reminding members of the military that they can, and in fact, have an obligation to disobey illegal orders. Today, on Truthsocial, the POTUS reacted: “It’s called SEDITIOUS...

www.christianforums.com

So I think if I delete OP the entire thread gos. Let’s see

eclipsenow · 2025-11-20T20:45:08-0600

Marilyn C said:
Hi eclipsenow,

John`s audience is all those who read, hear and keep the words of this prophecy. (Rev. 1: 3)

`soon, speedily, take place. Fine. That is what we see. The Lord reveals Himself to John and the rest follows on. However, are you trying to tell me that everything in Revelation has happened?

Rev. 1: 9 `I John, both your brother and companion in tribulation.....` (NKJ) I don`t see any `the.`

The book is about JESUS as is ALL of God`s word. To make it about US is to diminish the great work and person of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It's a sermon on suffering, so of COURSE it reminds his audience that one day the Lord will return.
The problem for those that want to read it as a future timetable is this happens many times in the book!
EG: The Lord returns at the end of Chapter 6! And there's a triplicate return in 19, 20, 21 - from different 'camera eye' views.
It has the gospel events dressed up in picture language.

It's too all Christians across all time, reminding us that if our governments turn on us - to trust in the Lord with great patience. We're also warned not to be seduced by the wealth of our nations, and trust in those. (Rev 13 has the mark has an alternative Shema prayer to money and the state, rather than God.)

So once again.

IF I gave you a 'prophecy' about a battle on Mars in the year 4000 AD and said "OBEY IT!" - wouldn't that be nonsensical?

John is trying to identify with his mission field. Trying to comfort brothers and sisters in Christ.
And futurists think he's raving about thousands of years in the future for the majority of the book?
It just doesn't add up!

"Toughen up princess - you've got nothing to worry about! Wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"

:doh:

Mark Quayle · 2025-11-20T20:38:27-0600

Belonging to Abba said:
I set time limits on texting and other apps with the Lock Me Out app on Android, and some of the time it has not been effective. Like yesterday when I had a 10 minute time limit on texting, but I still ended up being glued to the phone and not able to put it down for a long time. When I was glued to the phone, I felt like there was a lot less to do on the phone so I was using the phone cut off from the activity I love, and really not liking it. If I have much more of these experiences feeling stuck on a phone and feeling severely limited in not being able to text friends, I might disable the time limit on texting and just use Lock Me Out for limiting or blocking other apps like social media. I might even disable the time limit on texting soon.

For controlling my addiction to my phone I turn the phone's power off before/when I get home, but not always consistently. It seems like this may be a more effective barrier to texting or my phone addiction because I cannot as easily grab the phone and immediately spend time on it, and I may decide to keep it off for my own good and to be able to get more tasks done. I have a landline and cell plan on my Galaxy Watch so I can still receive urgent calls from my mom if she has a pressing need to call me.

With my smartphone addiction, I also have weird behavior of wanting to get in bed in with my phone. Previously, I loved to just get in bed and text friends and found it really relaxing. Now with a time limit in place if I get in bed with the phone, I may spend some time browsing the Google Discover Feed, or scroll through YouTube to see what is there, but yesterday I kind of ran out of stuff to do on the phone, so I just put the phone aside and laid there.

With the time limits in place, it would be super productive if I opened the Bible app and worked on memorizing Bible verses. I did that once with these new limits, but a lot of times I have not.

You sound like this is surprising to you. If it is an addiction, controlling it is like controlling any other addiction.

My job requires me to be available 24 hrs if only to answer texts troubleshooting equipment over the phone, with customers all over the world. Truth is that most nights I can sleep without interruption, but the phone is by me in bed. If I can't sleep, I might actually watch a few police chases on TikTok, and about 3 hrs later realize it's already time to get up. If that is wrong for me to do, rather than just inconvenient to my productivity and state of mind, I shouldn't do it. Simple as that.

I like to drink beer, I like to have a buzz, but I don't do it all day, because it is harmful to my life. I don't get drunk every night to be able to sleep because I need to be available to answer the phone coherently. "Because" can be a strong motivator.

I'm not going to tell you I'm addicted to my phone, nor eating, nor anything else, because in the end it is like sin or any other pursuit. In the end, we always choose what we most want to do at that instant of choice, even if it has become automatic.

I expect I don't need to tell you what happens when you pursue Christ, and find yourself desperately needing him, and seeing the weakness, stupidity and self-indulgence of the flesh, and his continuing patience in demonstrating to you repeatedly that apart from him you can do nothing.

The Grace of God can be overwhelming.

Yarddog · 2025-11-20T20:38:19-0600

Michie said:
Pope Leo XIV is defending the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ message opposing what he characterized as the “extremely disrespectful” treatment of illegal immigrants being deported by the Trump administration. His comments come as border czar Tom Homan continues to defend the federal government’s actions and reiterate earlier allegations of hypocrisy by the Catholic Church.

In response to reporters seeking his comment on the USCCB’s “Special Message” on immigration Tuesday, the pontiff said, “We have to look for ways of treating people humanely, treating people with the dignity that they have.”

“If people are in the United States illegally, there are ways to treat that. There are courts; there’s a system of justice. I think there are a lot of problems in the system. No one has said that the United States should have open borders. I think every country has a right to determine who and how and when people enter,” he stressed.

Continued below.

Pope Leo says he opposes open borders, blasts Trump's deportation of illegal immigrants

Pope Leo XIV is defending the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops message opposing what he characterized as the extremely disrespectful treatment of illegal immigrants being deported by the

www.christianpost.com

No open has called for open borders. That is just a right wing lie. The Pope understands and he knows that Trump lies, especially about immigrants.

eclipsenow · 2025-11-20T20:38:15-0600

Vambram said:
President Trump has never issued an illegal order to the military.

And yet his use of the National Guard is before the Supreme Court, and he's having the military blow up anonymous, unidentified boats off the coast of Venezuela.

I've served. I've had the legal command lectures. It's not hard!

Disobey un-lawful commands.

Did poor Mr Trump read this too late and not register the "un" bit? Unlawful?

It's just embarrassing to watch him melt down every 5 minutes over some perceived sleight to his NPD

A Devil's Advocate · 2025-11-20T20:34:07-0600

RandyPNW said:
Why the Disclaimer? You think the God of the Bible is to be separated from Christianity?

I think you missed the whole concept of that being sarcasm. The point I was getting at is that many Christians tend to place God in a box. He is only capable of so much. Even to the point that you have to wonder if they believe sin itself has more power than God.

RandyPNW said:
It is hardly ridiculous. Everything about the trees in the Garden was a test of loyalty with consequences. God also tested Israel in the wilderness with consequences.

Okay. But why? Why test for loyalty? God wants a relationship, not just a bunch of loyal servants. What does loyalty have to do with anything? A relationship assumes loyalty. Loyalty is the natural fruit of a loving relationship, not the other way around.

RandyPNW said:
False, God thought it good to give Man free will. He did not wish Man to use his free will to rebel against His word. But God thought it good to allow Man, in his free will, to rebel against His word if he so wished to do so. Who are we to say that this is illogical or absurd? It is precisely what happened!

When did man have freewill? I'm talking about the ability to choose... real choice, meaningful choice, choice that carries weight and consequence. Before the fall, when the knowledge of good and evil was first gained by Adam and Eve, where was their freewill?

The potential for freewill was there, yes. This was established by the commandment. But freewill was not realized until they had knowledge from which their moral agency could operate and they could understand the consequences. Choice, and the exercise of that choice had to come before freewill could be fully realized. The choice to eat from the tree or not would not be considered freewill because at that point, they would have had no moral understanding of the consequences of their behavior.

RandyPNW said:
That does not follow. I can know God as a good God without ever having sinned, just as the good angels who never sinned still know God is holy. They say so in the book of Revelation.

How is it you're able to know that light exists? It's because the absence of light is darkness. It is because of darkness that we are able to recognize light. The same is true for God. The absence of good (God) is evil. Because of evil, we are then able to recognize the goodness of God. If there was no evil, no absence of good, then how would you know that God is good? What are you using as a reference point from which to distinguish good? What are you measuring good against to know if it is good?

Your statement overlooks an important concept. God's angels know sin like a doctor, for example, knows cancer. Whereas, we know sin like a cancer patient knows cancer. His angels know it through knowledge, we know it through experience. So yes, an angel can know the Holiness of God because they have an intellectual understanding of sin.
Before the fall, man had neither intellectual or experiential understanding of sin. Because the fall was a physical act, man gained the understanding of sin through experience.

Yarddog · 2025-11-20T20:33:04-0600

Vambram said:
SCOTUS will rule in favor of the Commander-in-Chief.

SCOTUS will rule in favor of the US Constitution. They swear an oath to the Constitution, not the President.

BPPLEE · 2025-11-20T20:32:57-0600

rambot said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/11/20/coast-guard-swastika-noose/

For some reason a nazi symbol can manage to not be considered hate speech....just "potentially divisive". This seems to speak to the ideologies this administration are happy to empower. Getting angry at posters for being critical of Israel I'd expect some posters will be quite upset to hear this is happenning in your navy.

And ditto for nooses and confederate flags (though their display is still banned).

What kind of coast guard Commandant would allow this? Glad you asked.

Admiral Kevin Lunday
Wow. How can that be?
Well as per a smart person than me:
This role requires senate approval. If you do not put forward a candidate, there is an unconfirmed interim leader.
So the Admiral leading the navy does not have senate confirmation, and has been leading the navy in an interim capacity since inauguration with no replacement in sight.
This was actually detailed in project 2025 as a way to have sycophants installed without the need for Senate approvals.

The article is behind a paywall but the Navy and the Coast Guard are separate entities

Fervent · 2025-11-20T20:29:09-0600

Mark Quayle said:
Mark Quayle said:
Can you demonstrate that anything can happen besides what does happen? Can you demonstrate the actual possibility of other options? Or is that only in our thinking? When God demands that we choose, do we not always only choose the one option? Was God not aware of those decisions before creating, but went ahead and created anyway? Well, then! He INTENDED it to be decided the way it was

CORRECT enough! That's why I asked it. Can you do it? Can you prove that "apparent" free will choices (or any other choice) could have gone a different way? You will say, "of course!", but you can't do it. You will provide some statement you consider axiomatic, but is not, like, "God would not demand what you cannot obey".

Mark Quayle said:
Otherwise, you need to demonstrate that {actual "chance" can determine outcomes}. The notion is by definition self-contradictory. But your whole construction depends on it.

You are defining justice according to the creature's ability to do what he is commanded to do. Sorry, but the command does not imply the ability to obey— it only implies the responsibility to obey. God is not unjust to create beings who will pay for their rebellion, as intended. He is making use of them for his Glory, to demonstrate his love and mercy to the objects of his mercy—us.

Can you demonstrate that actual "chance" can determine outcomes? Or do you first need me to demonstrate how your notion of free will implies chance determining outcomes?

You seem to completely miss his objection, which is that you are engaged in a special pleading argument by demanding your opponent meet a standard you yourself cannot.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-20T20:25:22-0600

A Devil's Advocate said:
The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

It amazes me the amount of wasted time and energy people put towards this goal of sinning less and ultimately, not sinning at all. Does anyone read the bible for what it actually says, or does everyone read it for what they've been told it says?

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.
Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?

The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good. The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

Before salvation we are spiritually dead, separated from God. Without spiritual life, there is no desire to do the will of God. Without spiritual life, the desires of the flesh are what rules us. We have no desire, what so ever, to do the will of God. After receiving new life (spiritual life), that is when we are suddenly presented with a dilemma. To now do the will of God.
This new dilemma is the very struggle Paul talks about. And the reason Paul talks about it is to make it clear to his readers that the very idea that we can stop sinning is ridiculous. He states very clearly that sin resides in the flesh. Unless you live in the fantasy world I mentioned earlier, until the day you die, you will remain in the flesh. The flesh is corrupt as a result of sin. And until our corrupted flesh is destroyed, and we are given new non corrupted bodies, this struggle will remain.

The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.

On the contrary, we should aim to confront the sinful passions and tame them for the glory of God. Christ commanded us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect (Christ is also perfect, but put on our human nature in order to perfect and glorify it on the Cross, thus he was, in this case as with Baptism, the first to do that which He commanded us to continue doing, that is, to be baptized by water and spirit and thus participate in His Baptism in the Jordan, and to put to death our mortal nature, corrupted by the passions so as to put on incorruption.

This is why St. Paul stresses the importance of asceticism, likening the way to running a race. Also I would note that this is not works righteousness; without the grace of the Holy Spirit acquired through faith, this process of Theosis , or as John Wesley translated it, entire sanctification, becomes impossible.

But since St. Athanasius not only led the Nicene Council which produced the first version of our Creed and rejected the heresy of Arius, but also compiled our 27 book New Testament canon, we ought to pay attention when he writes that God became man so that man could become god, that is to say, that we might by grace become what Christ is by nature.

This is not to say all will conquer sin in this life, but some have, and in the case of the Theotokos, she never sinned at all, although having been born under the shadow of ancestral sin, still required salvation through her Son, which she of course received as the early church attested.

rambot · 2025-11-20T20:22:42-0600

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/11/20/coast-guard-swastika-noose/

For some reason a nazi symbol can manage to not be considered hate speech....just "potentially divisive". This seems to speak to the ideologies this administration are happy to empower. Getting angry at posters for being critical of Israel I'd expect some posters will be quite upset to hear this is happenning in your navy.

And ditto for nooses and confederate flags (though their display is still banned).

What kind of coast guard Commandant would allow this? Glad you asked.

Admiral Kevin Lunday
Wow. How can that be?
Well as per a smart person than me:
This role requires senate approval. If you do not put forward a candidate, there is an unconfirmed interim leader.
So the Admiral leading the navy does not have senate confirmation, and has been leading the navy in an interim capacity since inauguration with no replacement in sight.
This was actually detailed in project 2025 as a way to have sycophants installed without the need for Senate approvals.

Yttrium · 2025-11-20T20:21:10-0600

Cool. Now I want the Justice Department to obey the president and charge these congresspeople with sedition, just to see how hard the judges laugh at it.

PTW · 2025-11-20T20:20:17-0600

X-Men: The Animated Series

Konnie King · 2025-11-20T20:15:24-0600

Wally Gator

The Liturgist · 2025-11-20T20:14:51-0600

A Devil's Advocate said:
Now before anyone comes at me with their nickers in a knot claiming that John 14:6 says we must believe in Jesus to be saved... let me be the first to remind you that Jesus is God! Not simply a means too God. He established the fact that He is God in the first part of the verse. Therefore, He is not saying no comes to the Father/God/Me except through the Father/God/Me. This makes absolutely no sense. Why do you need to go through God in order to get too God when going through God means you're already with God?

That’s an incorrect reading, inconsistent with the Patristic understanding shared by all Christians (who apparently you have a disdain for) which is based on a Modalist or Sabellian misinterpretation of the nature of God. We worship one God, in three persons. That said, the persons (the Greek word is prosopon, which could be misinterpreted to mean mask or visage, were it not for the fact that we say each prosopon is hypostatically distinct while sharing the one essence of the Father (homoousios), are distinct, so the Son is not the Father.

In declaring that no one comes to the Father except through Him, Christ is declaring the doctrine of the Incarnation - that through Him, the Father, who is invisible, has made Himself visible, in the Prosopon of His only begotten Son and Word, who, in putting on our human form, remade us in His image on the Cross, and demonstrated God’s willingness to die to save humanity.

The problem with your approach is a confusion of the persons; yes, the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God, the Holy, Life Giving and Undivided Trinity, but undivided does not mean indistinct; your argument implies God as being one Person, when He is one God abiding in Three persons, a union of infinite and eternal love, that we are called to make ourselves holy icons of, in our relationship with our family, with our neighbor, with the fellow members of the Church (the Ekklesia spoken of by St. Paul and by the Nicene Creed, however you define it ecclesiologically speaking), and with humanity as a whole.

What i love about Eastern Christianity in its various forms (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Eastern Catholic) is the extreme emphasis we place on love for one another, which one also seeks echoed in some Lutheran thought, for example Soren Kierkegaard sounded very Orthodox when he famously wrote “I need you in order to be me.”

Certainly my life has been enriched not just by my Orthodox coreligionists like @prodromos @dzheremi @jas3 @FenderTL5 @Chesterton and others on but also by my dear Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian and my dear Roman Catholic friends @chevyontheriver @RileyG and @Xeno.of.athens and by my dear Anglican friends @Jipsah and @Shane R among others. It is this component of love in the Holy Trinity that attests to the identity of God in three persons and not the functionally unipersonal God you seem to be describing; you might consider yourself a Trinitarian, but I would respectfully submit that if you think that Christ saying “no one can come to the Father except through Me” is anything other than an attestation of the doctrine of the Incarnation you need to study the Trinitarian concept more carefully, ideally by studying in greater detail rather than simply dismissing outright the doctrines of Christianity, particularly as expressed by the traditional liturgical churches.

Mark Quayle · 2025-11-20T20:12:36-0600

Mark Quayle said:
Can you demonstrate that anything can happen besides what does happen? Can you demonstrate the actual possibility of other options? Or is that only in our thinking? When God demands that we choose, do we not always only choose the one option? Was God not aware of those decisions before creating, but went ahead and created anyway? Well, then! He INTENDED it to be decided the way it was

bling said:
That is the same as asking you can you show all "apparent" free will choices could never have gone a different way?

CORRECT enough! That's why I asked it. Can you do it? Can you prove that "apparent" free will choices (or any other choice) could have gone a different way? You will say, "of course!", but you can't do it. You will provide some statement you consider axiomatic, but is not, like, "God would not demand what you cannot obey".

Mark Quayle said:
Otherwise, you need to demonstrate that {actual "chance" can determine outcomes}. The notion is by definition self-contradictory. But your whole construction depends on it.

You are defining justice according to the creature's ability to do what he is commanded to do. Sorry, but the command does not imply the ability to obey— it only implies the responsibility to obey. God is not unjust to create beings who will pay for their rebellion, as intended. He is making use of them for his Glory, to demonstrate his love and mercy to the objects of his mercy—us.

Can you demonstrate that actual "chance" can determine outcomes? Or do you first need me to demonstrate how your notion of free will implies chance determining outcomes?

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