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Elijah Comes First

So you must believe that Revelation 11 is very figurative. I don't say it has anything to do with second chances, just that it is real, rather literal not figurative, such that the devil has little option but to try and hide and mask the fact when those two prophets arrive.

The lake of fire is real, as you allude to, indeed some will go straight to it when they 'wake up' from death. But it is not some outerspace place or some other dimension. The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17. The two prophets do the initial kindling of the lake of fire, literally, they will show and demonstrate that the Messiah also will literally breath divine fire.
And in that manner must anyone who hurts them be killed Revelation 11:5, the beast and false prophet indeed hurt them and therefore must be killed by the fire they start, and we know that the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire Revelation 19:20, these passages must both be true, and therefore also we clearly see that indeed it is the prophets that first kindle the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the result of this current world destroyed by divine fire. Started by the two prophets then the Messiah and then the Father sends down the final fire that destroys the sky land and sea Revelation 20:9- 21:1 2 Peter 3:8-12
Everyone will have a first and only chance. If you believe that this is the only day of salvation but you have friends and loved ones who are not converted then you doom them. This is taking judgement too far, something you have no right to do. There will be a millennial reign of Christ in which people alive at that time will be given their own chance for salvation. Then at the second resurrection there will yet another group given their first and only chance of salvation. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened. These are the three different times salvation will be offered to three different groups of people. I don’t think anyone here would agree with this but that’s OK.
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The two witnesses' activity chart

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
What will happen when Jesus Returns is different to any previous event. The effects in verse 20, are heavenly, not on earth.
Who had the the power to shut the sky and no rain fell? Elijah
Who turned water to blood and brought plagues? Moses

I have other reasons to believe it's them, but that would take a while.

What I am definitely sure of, is that they are 2 literal persons, and not a metaphor for the Church and Israel
But the 2W will have the ability to cremate anyone who attacks them.
I do not believe they will be any resurrected person. they themselves will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. As will all the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4
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B flat B♭

No not then bit they knew where all this was leading too, from Newton to Albert Einstein to Morley & Tesla and then eventually NASA.
So (just to be sure I haven't misunderstood you) you think that the "establishment" of Luther's time somehow knew about future (to them) people like Einstein and Tesla, and organisations like NASA?
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Date of authorship of Revelation

T
But then again i tend to ihinkI made a post about it. It links back to Solomon 3 times via 666, and also wisdom, and understanding which links to the modern country "Israel", and the mark of the beast is the hexagram. It is in heavy code so that it can only be unlocked by someone that studies the bible a lot, studies the life of Solomon deliberately, and specifically, is willing to follow the text of the bible wherever it leads, and is willing to say what the bible says even if it is unpopular amongst other Christians. Also if it said in plain language "the mark of the beast is the hexagram on the future country Israel" the Christian Zionists would mock the bible, and say it has been corrupted that is not what it said originally.
That kinda sounds " too clever by half", but then again I tend to think most explanations of Revelation are.
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Asking AI to explain Sunday observance when NT has no such command

[DISCLAIMER: THIS RESPONSE WAS GENERATED BY AI, PROMPTED WITH THE QUOTED POST]

Balanced & Reasonable​
“AI is just a tool, like a concordance, commentary, or Bible dictionary. Christians have always used tools to help study Scripture. What matters isn’t who helps you look something up, but whether the conclusions are tested against Scripture itself.”​
Direct but Respectful​
“AI doesn’t replace the Holy Spirit or personal study. It simply gathers information quickly. If someone is grounded in Scripture, AI is no more dangerous than using a commentary from a pastor they’ve never met.”​
Pointed / Reddit-style​
“Christians have been using non-inspired tools for centuries—Strong’s Concordance, lexicons, sermons, study Bibles, YouTube pastors. AI is just a faster index. The authority is still Scripture; the tool doesn’t change that.”​
Historical Angle​
“The early church copied manuscripts, consulted teachers, and debated theology. Using tools to study the Bible is nothing new. Technology changes—interpretation standards don’t.”​
If You Want a Slightly Snarky Version​
“So Christians shouldn’t use AI, but we can use Google, commentaries, sermons, and study Bibles written by fallible humans? The issue isn’t AI; the issue is discernment. Test everything, hold fast to what is good (1 Thess. 5:21).”​

[DISCLAIMER: THIS RESPONSE WAS GENERATED BY AI, PROMPTED WITH THE QUOTED POST]
But AI is more than just summary. AI is to use fake voices, fake images, videos and what not. Christians use AI for prayers, teachings, sermons. Where is the authenticity? Where is the heart that God desires? We worship the Lord with new hearts of flesh, and not like machines. Prayers, sermons it's not about using beautiful words, but words from a heart that fears and love the Lord.

Yes, technology is just a tool. A good servant but a terrible god, it can become easily our idol. So in sense technology is not bad, but it is the way we use it. AI however, is much much worse.

We can have a discussion, but I want a discussion with a human being, not AI
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Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

Are you not middle-aged Australian?
Yes and thats part of the problem. You assume certain demographiscs with certain beliefs and positions. Classic IP.
I had to build the most extreme caricature of an ignorant MAGA Trump superfan to come close to your dogmatic and uninformed presentation on the current US president. I was certainly not stereotyping American Trump supporters.
What exactly about what I said was dogmatic.
Guests on "Lindell . tv" do not meet the normative definition of experts.
What exactly was said that was not in line with the expert opinion. See this is where my lack of knowing what sources are stereotyped themselves. I just go by the content of what was said. If that happens to be a source you don't like thats not my problem.

The content is in line with the experts and that why I linked it. Purely on what was said and not where it came from. I don't care where it came from because the whole idea of certain sources being good or bad is itself a subject and often biased opinion.
The other posters? I could believe that you take the worst of their ideas and layer on your own ignorance of American politics, culture, and history.
No not the other posters but the experts. That is where I am getting my information. Its not the worse or any subjective qualification. Its the facts.
Which is not America. (My HS classmates also got stuck fighting that war.)
The point is you don't have to be an American to know American politics. You can know American politics from Americans who know American politics and then you use your senses to take that info in. I do understand english and what words mean lol.

When they say the evidence shows that massive fraud has been committed and show the evidence I can be informed. Then refer to that as counter evidence to someone who claimed that Trump was a fraudster. That they have no moral ground to stand on.
Than me wasn't the issue. It was your knowledge relative to the other conservative posters. I'd still put up their understanding of American reality over you any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Most of this is not about American or Australia or any nations politics. Its plain right and wrong. The moral truth, commonsense, reality, whatever you want to call it.
Real or not, it is irrelevant to the thread and THAT was my point.
And my point was that this was a sub thread over moral hypocracy. About the same people that are morally outraged have double standards and thus bias.

From what I was seeing with people making all these extreme claims about Hegseth and TRump being murderers and commiting war crimes. That same old extreme narratives ike Kirk and Trump are Nazis ect. It was my point that these same people have been quiet happy to allow 10 times worse bad behaviour and have no moral leg to stand on.

This was also based on the fact that the language was implying guilt in doing something morally wrong without the intel. This showing a willingness to jump to the negative due to political bias and partisanship.

This was reality. I am am merely pointing this out. I have not said anything about the right or wrongness of the situation. Just pointing out howw the usual Trump haters are quick to jump the gun (pardon the pun) lol.
You were whingeing about anti-Christian bias related to criticism of Trump's policy/action which is rather silly as Trump is at best a nominal Christian. (And I understand the moral depravity of your position on narco boat killings.)
I was not making a case for Trump being a Christian or that this is about Christ v non or Dems v Rep or Left v Right or anti immigration or anything.

I was simply using those examples of the hypocracy of how the Dems under Biden and Obama did all that they accuse Trump of and have no moral leg to stand on. That it was their now proven extreme bias that causes people not to trust a word they say.

So when people start jumping the gun again and making all these assumptions of guilt and extreme claims of war crimes its history repeating itself. So its right to point it out.
Are the Aussie commentators really that bad? (or just the ones on the "Fox News" of Australia.) (I am well aware that Ruprect Murdock is Australia's worst crime against America.)
You can't help yourself can you. Doubling down now on IP. Us Aussies must be dumb, they could not possibly know anything. That bad old Fox News.

Did you notice at I mentioned that "even the Australian experts agreed". I said they were agreeing with the American experts
But how can you *know* what any poster's position on drone strikes by Obama or whatever was?
It does not matter because everyone will pick a side and both sides are as bad as the other lol. But usually when people are so fixated on the opposition [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] political.

But even if its moral there are mmore than one position. So when someone starts claiming "shoulds" then we can say that they have jumped the gun because they don't have the facts. Thus exposing their bias in assuming a wrong for that particular situations when similar ones or other views are just as relevant.
You certainly don't know mine.
If someone states that what happened is X and this should not have happened as its morally wrong. Then they are declaring their position. We can read a lot from the actual words that come out of peoples mouths lol. Its the most direct way of knowing what they think and believe.

Thats unless you think what people about a situation or themselves cannot be trusted.
Now please, let's go back to discussing the news item on the current sequence of drone strikes on drug boats off the coast of Venezuela
Actually I am going to bow out. I don't see any point and I have said all I can say on the issue. It will be a continual back and forth of peoples subjective moral beliefs on the situation without the clear facts. Which are yet to come out.
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RFK Adjusts Hepatitis B Vaccine Recommendations; Democrats Lose Their Minds

Misleading title is misleading.

It's not just Democrats that are having "existential meltdowns" about the vaccine schedule changes. It's pretty much the entirety of the US medical profession.

You repeated yourself.
This is false. There are no EU/EEA countries that wait until five months to deliver Hepatitus B vaccines

Hm, your right, I think I was looking at Czechia wrong. But thanks for posting because looking even closer, i see Finland doesn't recommend or require it outside of at-risk infants, at all. Iceland doesn't either, and Hungary doesn't until age 12
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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Doesn't Jesus speak about love for God and love for neighbor as being more important than most anything?

AI Overview
Yes, absolutely; Jesus taught that loving God wholeheartedly and loving your neighbor as yourself are the first and greatest commandments, summarizing all other laws and prophets in these two, showing they are the foundation of faith and more important than rituals or rules. He emphasized this isn't just a feeling but requires tangible actions of care, compassion, and generosity towards everyone, even enemies, linking love for God and love for others as inseparable. :) :sparklingheart:
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Immigrants Approved for Citizenship ‘Plucked Out’ of Line Moments Before Pledging Allegiance: Report

What should be the procedural cut-off for when an executive branch makes an administrative change to rules and prerequisites?
Cut off new applications. Don't slam the door on people who are already in the process of becoming citizens.
  • Agree
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ICE Nativity scenes: Churches reimagine Christmas story amid deportations

Are you able to use words to articulate your point?
A picture paints a thousand words. Haiti is on the same island as a lager country that doesn't have the same problems. So people in Haiti who don't like living in Haiti can go over to the Dominican Republic next-door. In other words the US is just one of many places Haitians can go to ro seek refuge from the gang activity taking place in Port-au-Prince.
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Charlie Kirk Didn’t Shy Away From Who He Was. We Shouldn’t, Either

What do y’all do, PM each other?
There are other photos, that’s just one of many
No, I'm just fascinated by the glazing of Charlie Kirk. But I have learned that many pictures are chosen not to accurately represent reality in the discussions on this site, so I always do a reverse image search.

Stock images don't give information very often. Almost always context is missing.
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Although I don't believe this apparently scientists believe life formed on its own

Actually, no. I'm among the vast number of people that think that demons are purely metaphorical at best. But as you say, I'm just an outsider looking in so my opinion is worthless. Which is why I referred to the teachings of more mainstream Christian denominations among whom the belief in demons and their presence here on earth is quite prevalent.

If you have a problem with the teaching you'll have to take it up with them. And unless you're claiming some greater authority on the subject it's to them that I'll have to defer.
Ok I get you now. The first thing to say would be that you believe in angels and demons if you think that God put you in such a world. If you don't then whats the problem. Your complaining about something you don't believe. Your acting like its true and you are going to suffer.
So my position holds, what kind of a loving God would place me in a world filled with fallen angels and demons, and then expect me to worship Him for doing so?
The second is if angels and demons are true then your qualifying this from your point of view which is not the same thing and will definitely be misrepresented.

I mean how many versions of angels and demons are there including those besides Christian. If you grant the Christian version then you must grant all the other versions of what angels and demons represent in the world. So which one is true.

This shows that if angels and demons are tru then you are grasping at straws over subjective conceptions of angels and demons and cannot really know which one is a true representation.

I don't think anyone knows. We can have a guess or maybe draw out some truths from the bible or from other beliefs as to what they represent. But I don;t think you have done that.

That would be an effort in itself to go through every version there is and break them down, categorise them, find common themes and what they actually represent. Rather than the misrepresented assumptions that you think Christians mean.

But if you have then thats fair enough. But there would need to be some evidence. Just by the fact that you are not a Christian is one sign that we should be cautious as a non Christian understand this different to a Christian. But even then some Christians disagree. So then the question is which version of Christian meaning are you referring to lol.

Its not that simple.

Another aspect is that by believing those who believe in angels and demons your lending support for the overall truth of angels and demons. It seems there is a natural inclination for humans to believe in gods, the soul and afterlife and angels and demons.

So we could say that the idea of angels and demons may have some truth and the evidence is humans persistent belief and inclination. But as humans we are completely incapable of fully understanding this.

So the concepts we come up with are never a true representation and therefore cannot be relied upon fully. But there may be some aspects we can draw out based on common experiences and beliefs.
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The rise of menace as a mainstream political tool

Indiana GOP state senator says he's a no on redistricting after Trump delivers his Thanksgiving execration

Trump's Nov. 27 Truth Social post ‒ one in a series of anti-immigrant comments posted Thursday ‒ referred to Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz as the "r-word." Though the word was formerly used in medical contexts, it's now widely regarded as offensive, and disability advocates seek to end its use.
Per Walz' daughter, cretins are shouting the r-word at their family home.

[You may recall that Walz' neurodivergent son cried during the governor's speech, spurring reactions that highlighted the divide between normal human beings and those who strangled their empathy.]
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Well, off we go

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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

This thread started with your claim that our "standard" view of human history was flawed because it missed the earlier development of "civilization" (fixed settlements, basically). One branch of evidence brought up fairly early was ancient stone working technology particularly as demonstrated by pre-dynastic Egyptian hard stone vase. These topics are entirely supported or not based on physical evidence behind. Even the related claims of "lost advanced technology" (whether it be stone softening or CNC-like machining) are based on *physical* methods that we either didn't know the ancients had or even we don't have. Again, these are physical technologies, whether we are talking about lathes or anti-gravity lift machines. They are not related to mystical experiences or the like. As such ancient spirituality is *not* relevant to these discussions. There are people who study ancient religion, spirituality, etc., but that is a different topic than what technologies the ancients had. That is why it is not on topic here. Every thread can't be about every thing.
And I explained this several times. I did not begin with the physical sciences. It was more philosophical about how the orthodoxy was flawed. Thats a epistemic issue of philosophy of science and not physical science.

I mentioned that it was a natural extension that looking at specific examples like the vases may help show that there is lost advanced knowledge and tech. We have probably dedicated most of the thread to this. Though there is a large chunk on what exactly is that knowledge and tech which is epistemics. They cannot be seperated when your talking about what the knowledge and tech represents as far as the epistemics. How they came to know.

But all along I was saying that we can go over specific examples forever and this won't really settle whether there was advanced tech and knowledge. I have shown several examples that support lost advanced knowledge and its been rejected.

So therefore we come back to the actual possibility in the first place of whether such alternative and advanced knowledge is possible and how knowledge can be arrived at through other means besides material reductionist science.
No, 'mind over matter' is motivational speaker pablum and not scientific.
See this is where we disagree. We have evidence of mind over matter. Is that not science. I mean we live that just about every day.
I know how desperately you want to overthrow "scientific materialism"
Material science describes a certain aspect of reality. I never said that it is unnecessary or needs to be eliminated. Just the belief that its the ontological truth for everything.
and the operational paradigm of science (methodological naturalism), but this just isn't the place.
That you call it an operational paradigm shows that its but one paradigm in how we see the world, nature and reality. Therefore its the very place to discuss these other paradigms if we are to truely work out what is knowledge.
Discussions of the fundamental nature of reality are not on topic for a thread on ancient human civilization.
Isn't it ironic. The one and only paradigm that the ancients existed in is being disregarded and thus leaving just one option but methological naturalism and materialism by extension when being used to dismiss the alternative knowledge.

You have more or less done exactly what I am pointing out is the problem with material science being used this way. That is dismiss all other ways of knowing in a thread that is seeking to understand those alternative ways and demand only one way of knowing. Thus begging the question.
Even if we accepted that claim what would it get you? That we have souls? I don't see how that changes early civilization or stone working technology.
No I am thinking more fundementally. That people stop trying to force their epistemic and metaphysical beliefs on others. Admit that there is a good possibility that there is this alternative knowledge such as belief, souls and spirituality or consciousness beyond brain.

Or at least admit that they have no way of disproving it and be open to the possibility. INstead of dismissing this out of hand.l Thats the honest approach anyway without the preconscieved beliefs in pushing material naturalism over all else.

This would completely change the thread to something more reasonable.
I would posit that I have at least as much direct experience with nature (and far more knowledge of reality) than even the common folk of Egypt.
The problem is and your not getting this is that its not just about contact or observational science. Its actually experiential and direct which requires the openness to what is beyond the material to even enter that space. If you could call it space.

You disbelieve so you already have an epistemic and ontological blinker and wall to even enter that domain.
We must remember the fundamental reality of ancient Egypt (pre-dynastic, 4th dynasty, etc.): It was an urban civilization with extensive agriculture. The whole of the civilization was a bunch of cities and farms squeezed along the Nile River by the vast extents of inhospitable desert. The rulers, priests, stone artisans, and pyramid architects were city dwellers. That is no different that what I grew up in -- surrounded by farms with the occasional bit of woods and nearby cities. If anything I have *more* and more varied access to nature than the typical Egyptian. As for experience with reality, I've seen the rings of Saturn and the organelles of paramecia with my own eyes and no Egyptian (or any ancient person) knew they even existed.
Except and this is not just for the Egyptians. But the entire paradigm and worldview that the ancients were immersed in was transcedent. It was either through deep beliefs in transcedent aspects or spirits or gods. Or some sort of meditation. mind states that transcedended the material world.

This is what I mean by material science looking from the outside in. The ancients having an experiential immersion in nature and reality became part of what scientists today are looking at from the outside.

They actually experienced or came closer to the actual nature naturalism is trying to understand. Its more a experience or mind state that allows the knowledge rather than intelligence building through the acciquistion of knowledge.

Reminder. This is spectualtion. It is my attempt to explain how the ancient mindset and knowledge was that brought them this advanced understanding. The physical out of place examples are the results. But its not just physical.
What even is "alternative knowledge". Most of the times I see that phrase it is from people who just don't want to deal with reality.
Yes this is the atheistic and materialistic view of alternative knowledge. Because the only true knowledge is material ie matter, particles, forces and fields. There is nothing else and even the alternative knowledge is the byproduct of the material.
I'm going to give you grace and assume that you are talking about these more speculative theories that your favorite YT
What is YT lol.
channels propose (about ancient megalith builders, advanced machining of vases, etc.) are ONLY going to be demonstrated with actual physical evidence, not any of these mind/behavior things.
Yes those specific investigators mainly look at the physical evidence of out of place stuff. But that also includes maths and geometry and other ideas about transcedent beliefs that were associated with some of those practices. You cannot seperate them out as this is part of how they claim to have achieved their knowledge.
You're not going to get away with rejecting methodological naturalism in the *physical science* section. If that's what you mean by "alternative knowledge" then you are on the wrong sub-forum.
No I am not rejecting methodological naturalism but its abuse. Its use to snuff out alternative knowledge. Thats when it becomes a belief and not science.
It certainly is, but the things you just wrote are a literal rejection of science.
Not thats you belief. Your assumption.
Good because simulation theory is dumb and not part of science. It is the kind of nonsense whipped up by rich tech bros while high.
The idea may be spectualtive but the basis is solid science.
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Scholar warns feminism has become a ‘megachurch’ replacing faith, family and Christian virtue

Carrie Gress argues the movement functions as a secular megachurch targeting women with false promises​


An author of 11 books, including an upcoming title on feminism, says the movement has evolved into a kind of secular "megachurch" with its own doctrines, rituals and moral code — one that she argues now serves as a substitute for faith, family and traditional Christian virtue.

“Feminism actually is not a subset of Christianity. It's actually a rival to Christianity," Carrie Gress, a fellow at the Institute for Human Ecology at Catholic University of America, told Fox News Digital in a recent interview.

Gress is the author of the forthcoming book "Something Wicked: Why Feminism Can’t Be Fused With Christianity," which she says examines how feminism has "quietly captured the minds and hearts of women by mimicking aspects of Christianity. Through its own ‘commandments,’ ‘virtues,’ ‘evangelization,’ and even ‘a sacrament,’ feminism has become an exceedingly powerful megachurch."

“In many respects, it can actually be seen as a megachurch," Gress told Fox News Digital. "It has taken on so many of the aspects of Christianity."

Continued below.

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