durangodawood said:

I was responding to what you quoted. Did you put it in the wrong thread?

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No way back on the first page I made a silly quip: "Epsteingate, from the people who brought you Russiagate". The rest is derail history.

Desk trauma said:

And leaving people who would be better off enslaved as free enfranchised citizens!

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Wholly unchristian.

Thank you all. I last became assured this past Thursday. Because God/Christ does not waver, I think I can trust in that and in Him.

fhansen said:

I honestly don't see the logic in maintaining that the possbilblty of somethiing occuring means that it must occur. Yes, an event cannot occur unless it's possible for it to occur-can't argue there. But if it doesn't occur then something has opposed that occurence, not rendered it impossible. That's what Augustine was getting at.

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It's not a matter of what must logically be the case; it's a matter of what John actually wrote. Can you walk through the syntax of this verse and show my error?

John 6:44 consists of three clauses:

1. Apodosis (result clause): οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ("No one is able to come to me")
2. Protasis (conditional clause): ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν ("unless the Father who sent me draws him")
3. Subsequent independent clause (not part of the conditional structure): κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ("and I will raise him up on the last day")

Now observe what the grammar does.

First, the conditional clause tells us only one thing:

The Father's drawing produces ability. (οὐδεὶς δύναται… ἐὰν μὴ… ἑλκύσῃ) Nothing more, nothing less.

If the Father "attempts to draw but fails," then the conditional statement is falsified. The individual would remain unable to come. That is why your claim that drawing "can fail" is not an exegetical argument. It contradicts the very syntax that defines drawing as the enabling act.

And notice: None of this tells us who actually comes. We agree on this! The conditional governs only the movement from inability --> ability. It does not address movement from ability --> actual coming.

This is why all your comments about "possibility doesn't guarantee coming" completely miss the point. That has not once been my argument. The conditional statement itself tells us only that the Father makes coming possible. But the element of the argument you've been neglecting to interact with is that the verse doesn't end there. There is another clause which stands outside the conditional statement. And notice who it references:

οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με
ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν
κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ

The αὐτόν… αὐτὸν are the same 3rd person singular pronoun. The αὐτόν in the protasis (ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, "[he] draws him") takes as its antecedent the "one" implied in οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν ("no one is able to come"). No other participant has been introduced. So the αὐτὸν in the final clause (ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν, " will raise him up") must refer back to the same αὐτὸν (i.e., the one drawn), because Greek does not shift third-person singular pronoun referents without introducing a new antecedent. John gives no such introduction.

In other words, while the notion that only some who are drawn are raised may feel logically reasonable in the abstract, John's syntax explicitly forbids it in this sentence. To hold that view, you would have to treat the second αὐτόν as referring to a narrower subset of the first αὐτόν. But that's pure philosophy, not exegesis. In spite of how reasonable you might find that, it is not grammatically defensible from what John actually wrote. Unstressed third-person singular pronouns in Greek do not generate new or narrower referents without an expressed antecedent introducing such a distinction. John introduces no new participant, no restrictive qualifier, and no delimiting phrase. The syntax of the sentence is communicating precisely that the "him" raised is the one defined as having been enabled to come.

So again, the argument is not that "enablement" logically entails "coming," as though the meaning of ἑλκύω itself smuggles in an irresistible conclusion. The point is subtler and entirely textual. John says that the one whom the Father draws -- the one whose inability has been removed -- is the same one Christ will raise. That connection does not arise from the lexical content of ἑλκύω, but from the nature of the Father's act as John presents it: a transformative divine initiative that brings a person from incapacity into the realm of responsive faith (hence, the promise of resurrection).

So the structure is:

• • No one is able to come
  • unless the Father draws him (this produces ability)
  • and I will raise that same him -- that is, the one drawn/enabled

The one who is drawn = the one who is enabled to come = the one who is raised. There is zero grammatical space to claim that the αὐτόν of clause 3 refers to anyone other than the αὐτόν of clause 2. No Greek reader in the first century would have inferred any other referent. Not without a theological presupposition forcing something into the text that isn't there.

This is why your entire argument about the meaning of ἑλκύω is irrelevant to the Calvinist case. The Calvinist argument does not depend on treating ἑλκύω as "cause of salvation." It depends on the fact that ἑλκύω appears inside the conditional, which governs ability, and that the resurrection promise applies to the same individual referenced by the conditional pronoun. So you can define ἑλκύω however you want... it doesn't change the fact that John's syntax defines ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν and ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν as the same individual. The one to whom ἑλκύω refers is promised salvation. The one to whom it does not refer remains unable to come. Those are the two categories.

stevevw said:

Also when I read the words 'blood and soil' Hitler was the furthest from my mind in relation to American history of fighting for anti slavery and the principles of freedoms and democracy.

They certainly fought and spilt blood on their own soil and that soil produced one of the worlds greatest democracies which gave us freedoms.

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The common phrasing you are thinking of is "blood and treasure" or "blood and sweat". "Blood and soil" is an enthonationalist phrase with a direct translation from Nazi ideology.

stevevw said:

But to then equate all this as Nazi is actually the injection of Woke ideologues who turn absolutely everything into being about identity groups. One identity group oppressing another. This isa common MO of the ideologues. They have been calling Trump and his supporters Nazis for 10 years now lol.

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These knobs at Harvard were absolutely at least toying with Nazi phrases. It isn't about Trump.

stevevw said:

Thats why I reckon don't even engage. If you try to defend or talk reason it does not work. This is about ideological beliefs and not objective reality. You can never win. State your beliefs and views when required and don't buy in. Tell the truth when required but don't buy in.

Theres too much fake news in this modern tech world. Too much whitenoise. Too many dark forces at work that will consume you.
Walk away and come back another day. Things may change. But no one will ever win in the culture war and buying in is the fuel that keeps it going.

For a Christian its unbeatable. Just speak the truth and leave it at that. If people don't like it so be it. You can't change them, only God.

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Then don't make excuse for this.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:

Your go-to response to calling any criticism or skepticism on the people you glorify (you even call Petrie and King 'great men'!) 'ad hominems' shows your lack of desire for engagement with ideas or even the very idea that you could be wrong.

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Notice how he refers to Chris King as Christ King, you can't get greater than that.

boughtwithaprice said:

So your argument is that looks should not cause one to be arrested. The converse is also true, looks should not exempt one from arrest.

Fact is people are breaking the law. The argument that they were not committing a crime at the time of arrest is spurious. Their mere presence in the country without permission is a crime in itself.

If I look like people that are breaking the law, I would be expecting to be detained and questioned. But for the fact that illegal immigration is a rampant problem in this country, due to previous lax enforcement, Latinos would not be subject to questioning.

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What does people “look like” that are breaking the law?

boughtwithaprice said:

Crying citizenship and rights violations does not make crime go away. It condones and encourages it.

I live in San Antonio, TX. It is the most Latino city in the USA and we voted for Donald Trump because we are sick and tired of citizenship becoming a joke and illegals held up as martyrs

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Bexar county voted blue which means that it voted for Harris not Trump,

boughtwithaprice said:

We love Mexican culture in Texas and are decedents of the Original Tejanos who were Mexicans that wanted to breathe free in the Republic of Texas. Yes Anglo brothers helped form the Republic, but Latinos were equal citizens. When it was no longer possible due to threats from Mexico and the failure of Mexico to recognize the Republic of Texas, we joined the United States to preserve freedom. We are proud of our citizenship and will gladly defend it to an officer of HSA in order to have illegals removed that would subvert our freedom

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I have lived in Houston, Texas since 1977. I know the history of Texas.

boughtwithaprice said:

Come to San Antonio and see how many Mexican Americans are crying about ICE. We are not. It’s all left wing propaganda. Citizenship is a privilege. God bless Donald Trump

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Been there many times. Love the river entertainment. And, I’m a centrist and an independent not far left.

boughtwithaprice said:

"Yo prometo lealtad a la bandera de los estados Unidos de America, y a la Republica que representa, una Nacion bajo Dios, entera, con libertad y justicia para todos."

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Y tu sabes Espanol o lo traducistes electronicamente? Yo soy Latino y el primer idioma mio es Espanol. Todavia no me gusta que la migra nos detengan simplemente por la apariencia o porque ablamos Espanol.

Shane R said:

I occasionally like to indulge in some chili dogs after church.

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It seems like if you had a really good sermon, you ought to reward yourself.

GoldenBoy89 said:

I'm not against this. I'm only wondering why you guys suddenly agree we need a stimulus. The American people are and have been struggling and this administration's economic and trade policies have only made things more expensive. Hence the sudden need to stimulate the economy. Some people in the White House can see the writing on the walls ahead of the midterms.

Can you see it too?

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Bidens economy was a disaster that has pur us in this position. The over all inflation during his term was ridiculous.

And Americans are still feeling it.

That being said I haven't seen Trump or the Republican congress do much to change the needle. I was a wait and see guy on rhe whole tariffs plan. Which I believe has helped in some ways and hurt in others. I'm not convinced its been an over all good thing for the citizens.

Gas prices are down and that is good. But little of anything else is. Overall Inflation is still at 3% which only about .1% higher than Bidens at it his lowest point in 2024. But we need over all inflation to go down. During Trumps first term it hovered around 2%.

Trump and Congress Haven't given us any actual plan to get it lower and the Fed has done nothing to help either. There has been no plan created and passed to help people with Healthcare costs either. So at this point I'd give Teump high marks on his foreign policy. But low marks on the economy end of things.

I'm fine with the stimulus checks if it happens, but I am concerned that Americans will save them rather than spend them. I also like that they are a one time deal instead of an ongoing thing like the Covid checks. Will these help anything? I dont believe they will long term. We need costs to go down. Especially after Bidens inflation brought it so high. And Trump isnt really helping right now.

As God’s people, we were all given free will to choose if we are for or against Him. A common question I hear often is “I don’t see how a loving God could send someone to hell. Why would he want to punish one of his creatures for all eternity?” The simple answer is that God does not want us to go to hell. He “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). It’s our very own actions and decisions in our everyday life that cause a separation from God. Hell is not a punishment that God imposes, but rather a separation that has been willfully chosen by a human person.

An individual may choose to remain separate from God. If the individual chooses to remain separate from Him, God will not force a union upon them. But as long as we are alive, we can still choose to turn to the Lord.

There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin (CCC 982).

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In order to turn away from sin, we must not only run to God, but we must also avoid anything that turns us away from Him. “If any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). We must first acknowledge our attachment and desires for material things of this world. These material things do not last long and only distract us to what is important which is Jesus Christ. To detach yourself from the world, repeat this prayer to God:

Continued below.

Apple Sky said:

I wouldn't say that, look at Martin Luther he knew the earth was stationary & didn't move.

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He believed in a geocentric earth. He was wrong on that one. But he didn’t believe in a flat earth. He was right on that one.

A Devil's Advocate said:

If the goal is Christ-likeness, this goal was achieved at the renewal of our spirit. At that moment we were made into the likeness of Christ. It had/has nothing to do with our behavior and everything to do with our condition.

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Joh 14:12 Indeed, I tell you truly, the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he will, because I go unto My FATHER.


Notice the Greek articles? This passage is for all of us, not just the apostles. Our behaviors are indeed involved. The born again experience was just the start of a life long pursuit of Jesus and the examples He gave us to follow.

"Imitate me as I imitate Christ."

If you're going to believe your bible, believe all of it.

Landon Caeli said:

I'm a blue collar worker myself

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Are you a truck driver?

FredVB said:

There are instructions. But we should both see that in the new covenant we who are saved are not saved according to our following instructions. It is with repentant faith coming to Christ. God is gracious, but would lead us, and it is desirable that we grow more, which is with learning God's will and doing what is for us to do according to that. Admittedly there will always be more to learn, in this life. There is much for it. If we assume we know all of it we are not open in the way to grow anymore. There is less reason to be left remaining here, then.

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That's cool May we all continue learning and growing ✝

Grace and peace to you, my man!

Step by step...

" the Bible was created hundreds of years after the time of Jesus “by a pagan emperor for political reasons.”"

True but only if one considers the emperor was unifying the empire after civil war and this religion was a tool in doing so. It had helped in his winning the war against the latin side of the empire when using crosses on armor to convince opposing soldiers who were Christian to surrender or switch sides rather than fight their own..

“Jesus wasn’t a Christian. He was a Jew. And he didn’t come to create a religion.”

Fact.

" be honest with ourselves and start listening to the truth that is behind it,”

True

"Jesus’ priority was people’s hearts, not churches, denominations, or dogma."

True. It is man that likes to institutionalize everything. His 'church' was built upon the rock solid foundation of God's truths, not man's.

“deeply flawed men, written, rewritten, translated, re-translated, filtered through kings, priests and politicians.”

As scholars and the oldest texts, the Dead sea scrolls, have shown

“argued over by 45,000 different Christian denominations who all swear they’re the ones who are right for 2,000 years"

Undeniable

“Kids do not need theological degrees. They need simple truth.”
“The gospel that Jesus taught is not about control; it’s about freedom,”

See Jesus' mention of children and His feud with the Sanhedrin. One suggests simple truth and the other calling out human government and control disguised as humans using of God.

"Dr. Eric Mason, founder and senior pastor of Epiphany Fellowship in Philadelphia, commented on Allred’s post, “I cannot even believe he made all of these fallacious [claims,] say the Bible was written by Constantine.”

That was never said that I can see. Is this then false witness?

"Jesus was indeed a Jew, Huff acknowledged, and Jesus was not a Christian because Christians did not exist yet. They derived their name from Jesus. And it is true he did not come to start a religion. “He came to fulfill that which was prophesied about him already,” said Huff."

Agreed

“Those first Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus as the Messiah........... they didn’t cease to become Jews. They weren’t converting to a new religion.”

Exactly, but they were indeed what would be the first of the new movement which would eventually be called Christian.

" Because they were and already had been considered authoritative Scripture for centuries.”

Some, not all. The idea was to weed out what did not fit, especially with Hellenistic thinking, in order to unify what would become a controlling governmental religion within the empire, dictating authourity over the rebellious factions of the religion to eliminate dissent.

"he said that no one would live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God,” said Huff. "

Huff tries to take scripture that refers to the OT and apply it to the NT. Misappropriated.

"Huff encouraged his viewers to take Allred’s advice to listen for the truth and to do their own research."

True.

“voted on by bishops under a pagan emperor,” “didn’t even exist in [Jesus’] lifetime,” and “is not God.”

True but not only was the compilation eventually used as a unifying tool within the empire's religion but also became our prime source of the Will of the Father and the story of His struggle with adversity in both us and elohim..

"and he strongly suggested that knowledge and education were antithetical to truly knowing God."

Yes, if it means having to adhere to strict doctrinal shackles of man, rather than the freedom to continually seek God as we are commanded to do. There is no final say by an institution. Salvation is a personal goal, not to be guided by human agenda rather than the Kingdom which they rejected in the Empire's time.

"Any time you question the authority, the first people to rush to its defense are the ones who treat their degrees like divine credentials,” said Allred, “as if God speaks louder to men with titles than men without.”

Such has always been the way of man, especially those who seek power. Every governing body of man seeks the same while the Kingdom of God is the opposite. Is it any wonder that the more man learns to think for themselves that authourity increases surveillance. Today is a prime example of power fearing for itself. Its time is coming to an end as the will o God will replace the selfishness of mankind.

“Theological certainty is spiritual death. And it was those who claimed to know God and speak for God, who ultimately crucified God’s son."

Absolutely, or Jesus wouldn't have said to continually seek God. He wouldn't have disputed the clergy. He wouldn't have said God's Will be done, not man's. And yes they did crucify Him just as they have always destroyed that which offends their notion of authourity.

As for the people's comments, God has always had to face opposition by those who would rather defend the world and the authourity and institutions of man over God's simple truth. Worldly is as worldly does and will always defend self before the will of God..

BelieveItOarKnot said:

That's pretty funny.
How many scriptural citings would you like for loving our neighbors as ourselves? I can count at least 10 citings in the N.T. alone, all stemming from the O.T. where there are several more

Even funnier it never made the cut of requirements of any creed

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Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. NKJV

Above is our OT removal of sins. If we depend on the OT rules for salvation the blood of bulls and goats, is our purification, The only reason God accepted their blood is because those offering them believed God would send someone to save them from their sins. They looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

Hebrews 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. NKJV

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him. The author, creator or writer, of eternal salvation.

Hebrews 9:16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. NKJV

Jesus wrote His testament, the New Testament, with His blood when He was crucified. Be sure to note that it is a New Testament, the New Testament, that God promised in the OT. It went into effect when Jesus died.

Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. NKJV

The OT is obsolete. The true Israelis are now under the NT as well as anyone who believes in Jesus. An obsolete covenant will not provide salvation. In the NT we do not look forward from the OT.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV

Obsolete covenant laws cannot make anyone righteous who believe in Jesus. Anyone who claims righteousness from the law, does not believe in Jesus. By the NT rules they will not be saved by trusting the OT laws.

John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. NKJV


Jesus being the author of the New Testament wrote the commandments we are to obey. The first and greatest commandment is that we believe in Him and we must abide, remain in Him, to be fruitful. If we do not stay in Him, we will not be fruitful and will be cast out, by the Father, and burnt.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV


Jesus also gave us another new commandment. We are to love other disciples as Jesus loved us.

Now as children of God we are expected, to the best we can, to be like Jesus. If we do that we will continue to live physically. The Father wants us to further Jesus' kingdom, to do that we should resemble Jesus.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I asked if you believe our "unsaved neighbors" are going to burn alive forever or be permanently annhilated.

I don't believe either happens to our neighbors, so you have my answer. Where's yours?

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Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV

From the white throne some will go to live on the new earth and some go the lake of fire. Do they burn for an eternity? As Jesus stated in Matthew 25: 41 the lake of fire was made for the spiritual being who rebelled. What happens to flesh and blood in the lake of fire I do not know. I do know that flesh and blood cannot live there.

Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the Lord, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the Lord. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." NKJV

Verse 22 states this is the new earth and new heavens after the white throne judgment. Verse 24 does say corpses, or dead bodies, of the men who have transgressed against God. So, Hades will torment them, and the lake of fire may kill them and leave their bodies intact.

I say some may burn eternally and some will be dead.

So, I say all one needs do to avoid going to Hades and the white throne judgment is to “keep believing in Jesus and to love Jesus' disciples as Jesus loved them.”

Dan1988 said:

Thanks for raising this important question. Many Christian Denominations teach that you can't be sure that you are saved, until judgement day.

But Gods Word reveals that believers can be sure of their salvation, in advance. If we believe what Gods Word reveals about the matter, then we can be 100% sure of our salvation.

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Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." NKJV

We can be sure we are saved when we are sons of God. Those who put to death are sons of God. To do that we must accept discipline.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

If we do not put to death the sins of the flesh, we have not accepted discipline.

Dan1988 said:

Romans 10:9-10 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

As we can see in the verses above, salvation is not a complicated set of requirements to fulfill in order to earn salvation, (as most Christian Denominations falsely teach).

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God does not lie. The Israelis were His children prior to Jesus' coming. If you drop down a couple of verses to;

Romans 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. NKJV


They were cut off because of their unbelief. If we do not continue to believe in Him. We also will be cut off.

Dan1988 said:

God is not the Author of confusion, so salvation is extremely simple and anyone who simply confesses the Lord Jesus with their mouth and believes in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead, will be saved.

I love the simplicity and the verses and the promise of salvation. Notice there are no good works or keeping the law, required for salvation.
I believe the above, so I'm 100% sure that I am saved, the only way I could lose my salvation is if God lied and we know that's impossible.

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Yes, we can be 100% sure of our salvation if we are putting to death sins of the flesh.

John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." NKJV

We are His sheep. His sheep are the only ones who follow His voice to be disciplined. If we are without discipline, we are illegitimate and not sons. Illegitimate children have no inheritance in His kingdom.

Aryeh Jay said:

The only real truth comes from God.

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Yup

JohnB445 said:

I am learning more about the Bible.

What happens in the future? Where there be an eternity of people being on Earth then dying later to be judged or will there come a point where there is no longer a need to judge and either people are in heaven or hell. And there are no more people left for God to judge?

If that is the case, what happens next? Is it possible for another rebellion to occur and people get kicked out of heaven? Remember the angels rebelled from the very beginning.

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Judgement takes place in heaven ... the records of all peoples lives are stored there .... when Jesus returns all judgement for all time has taken place and the 1st resurrection (of the saved) occurs ... those are taken to heaven for 1,000 years and afterwards the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) takes place (of the condemned)

Hell is the grave .... there is no "burning place" for eternity. The masses are dormant in the grave until resurrected.

What caused the rebellion in the first place? .... believing lies ... in heaven we will know the complete truth and also there will be no temptation because satan is destroyed.

James 1:14-15 describes how temptation arises from within an individual, not from God. It states that each person is tempted when they are "dragged away by their own evil desire" and lured in by their own cravings. Once this desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and the result of sin is death.

• Origin of temptation: Temptation does not come from God but from our own sinful desires.
• The process: These desires "drag you away" and "entice you".
• The outcome: When these desires are fulfilled, they lead to sin, and the consequence of sin is spiritual death.

Satan, described as "prowling around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8), is a key instigator of temptation. He tempts us by twisting God's gifts and using our free will to try and lead us astray.

There won't be any temptation in heaven (satan destroyed) and we will know the complete truth and therefore sin will never rise again.

Delvianna said:

"Some that illegally crossed the border into the United States, some that came in through visa waiver and were prohibited from working, some that had visas and overstayed their visas." link

Out of the 330 people detained, 316 South Koreans have been deported, the rest were Chinese, Japanese and Indonesian. link

Sounds like illegals and people who broke the law to me. If you break your visa agreement, the US has the right to deport you.

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The people suing were there on proper visas.
And part of the problem with the other visas is a fewfold. The Trump admin was insisting that the work on the factory be finished by the end of the year, so workers were needed on a quick schedule to accomplish that. Problem with that was, the time it takes for the states to process visa applications is long for the type they'd need and previously, for these sort of cases, the US government had allowed other types of visas be used, even if they didn't allow work by letter, because it was deemed necessary to get the people in. So there's been an understanding between companies and the state that this is ok in these cases.

2PhiloVoid said:

I'm non-partisan and an equal opportunity critical thinker, and I do my best to avoid running like a lemming in vicious circles or sit in selective echo chambers that both the Left and the Right all too conveniently and insistently provide for everyone.

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OK, from that fair and neutral position you should be able to explain why an academic discipline like CRT has any influence over me, especially--in the present context--over my opinion of organized religion.

2PhiloVoid said:

So, if someone out there thinks I've "othered" them in some way, maybe they need to put the Tik Tok down and read more widely---maybe they could start by reading, "Screwtape Proposes a Toast."

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Here:

2PhiloVoid said:

To some moderate extent that's true, but even so, it doesn't mean we should work and pray that Democrats will regain the presidency, congress and senate so we can turn this thing into a Chinese Democracy.

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Accusing Democrats of wanting to turn the country into a "Chinese Democracy" is not othering them?

biblelesson said:

What about what the gospel says (the gospel of Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV), that is the power of God unto salvation? Romans 1:16 KJV

What about those who say they believe, but are without the Spirit of Christ? Romans 8:9 KJV

What about those who say they believe, but Jesus told them He never knew them? Matthew 7:23 KJV

It’s the same as preachers telling their congregation that all we need is a little faith like the mustered seed when the mustered didn’t have little faith, it had great faith.

Faith as a mustered seed is not speaking about the size of the mustered seed? It’s speaking about the capacity of the mustered seed’s faith. A tiny seed being planted in the ground had the capacity to flourish into a great magnificent tree. Great faith!

To prove we must have great faith!
1) When walking on water, Jesus said to Peter, oh ye of little faith! If little faith was ok to have, why did Jesus addressed Peter’s little faith as the reason he fell in the water.
2) when the disciples could not cast out an evil spirit, Jesus was annoyed with them and said they could not do it because of their little faith. If little faith was enough, why could they not accomplish casting out the evil spirit.

The capacity for great faith does not exist in us! This type of faith is bestowed on us by God’s Spirit through Christ Jesus, as we digest the gospel of Christ - eat His words - Jesus told the disciples my words are Spirit…

My main issue is sometimes we say things about salvation that does not address the true requirements for salvation. It is not enough to say we believe in Jesus; there is much, much more that secures our salvation, and it is following the exact truth of the gospel of Christ, the power of the gospel, that is the power of God unto salvation. Leaving out the requirements of the gospel, we cannot obtain salvation.

We must look to experience. That is the only way we know we have been given the Holy Spirit - the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16 KJV - this is an actual experience

We sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus - this is an actual experience through the power of the Spirit Who raises our consciousness to where we are placed in another dimension- from putting off the flesh, the old man, to walking in the new man in Christ Jesus.

It’s not enough to say we believe, we must be conformed into the image of Christ - the power of the gospel manifests these realities in our life, by God’s Spirit.

The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead must be in us in order for us to be raised at Christ’s return. Through the Spirit we must please the Husbandman Who desires the first fruits - That is, we must produce fruit - the Fruit of the Spirit, bestowed upon us by the Spirit through many trials - the furnace of affliction.

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Well what about you not adding into accounts in The Bible parts that are not actually there. As an example, take you saying the people in Matthew 7:23 had believed in Jesus for eternal life. When there is not a singe sentence saying these people had believed in Jesus for eternal life. The only thing the verses say is they did thing in the name of Jesus and that is not the same as believing in The Name of Jesus for eternal life.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



An example of a contemporary day Matthew 7, would be people who say they went to church in the name of Jesus, or were baptized in the name of Jesus, or repented of their sins in the name of Jesus, etc.... But never actually did believe in the person Jesus, for Eternal Life.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

God Himself bound everyone to disobedience, Romans 11:32

Adam and Eve were no exceptions

Jesus even shiws us HOW it happens in Mark 4:15

Uh yeah, only if you completely eliminate the tempter within them from the equations. Which of course is illegitimate sight. All have sin. Sin is of the DEVIL

You just forgot

God clearly said the serpent did it. Did you miss that detail?

There was no choice involved.

God always meant for there to be a first natural person and THEN a second person made a spirit. 1 Cor. 15:42-56

First the natural, and after, the spiritual

That's His Program. No choice of our required

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Thanks for sharing but I do not hold to all the teachings from Augustine or Calvin.

Benaiah468 said:

The future kingdom of Jesus on earth will not be a political kingdom in the conventional human sense, but a reign of G-d that unites political, social and spiritual dimensions.

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Agreed. The two are counter-cultures

Arcangl86 said:

Simple yes or no question. Regardless of potential consequences, did they have the power to modify the requirements for cloture and approve this bill with no cooperation from the Democrats?

You right here are admitting they had the ability to address this.

The amendments made to the CR were made in the Senate. That means that the House will then need to pass it again.

If they had amended the bill, it would have been sent back to the House. The House that wasn't in session because Johnson had sent them home after passing the bill precisely to pressure the Democrats to approve the bill.

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They're not going to approve a bill that has potential consequences. It would be incompetent to do so.

The amendment made in the Senate was not what Schumer's counter proposal was seeking. Read page 57 of the counter
proposal, which would've continued to fund everyone legal and illegal. The bill modification in the Senate only extended
the current healthcare bill. The House then approved it and sent it back to the Senate and then to Trump.

Schumer wanted to go back to spending $1.5 trillion which included illegal immigrants and as it was done
before Trump took office. Schumer faced criticism from the democrats when he voted for the resolution
back in March. This time he tried to appease them.

Even Senator John Fetterman (D) sided with the republicans and criticized the democrats for shutting down the government.
The democrats who negotiated with the republicans to reopen the government, blamed Schumer and the DNC for the
shutdown.

The healthcare solution is only kicking the can down the road. Insurance companies will merely raise their premiums
based on how much the government is willing to give them. The president and congress, democrats and republicans,
are going to have to get us away from the "for profit," healthcare system we currently have. A single-player universal
healthcare package will have to be put together, which will be run by a private company with government oversite.
Guess who opposed Hillarycare and put out propaganda against it? The health insurance companies.