Michie said:

‘…when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.’ (CCC 1815)

I will be documenting in a two-part article some of the very best quotations from the Church Fathers, illustrating the universal patristic consensus against “faith alone” (sola fide) and in favor of the Catholic view regarding faith and works as organically connected, and infused justification (no separation of justification and sanctification).

Pope Clement of Rome (d. c. 101) ... we may share in his promised gifts ... if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to him; if we do the things which are in harmony with his blameless will ... (Epistle to the Corinthians, 35)

Ignatius of Antioch (50 – c. 110) I also am the more encouraged, resting without anxiety in God, if indeed by means of suffering I may attain to God, so that, through your prayers, I may be found a disciple [of Christ]. (Epistle to Polycarp, ch. 7)

Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (possibly as early as 130, or as late as 180) ... you shall know what God bestows on such as rightly love him, ... presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce ... (ch. 12)

Continued below.

16 Church Fathers vs. Faith Alone

‘… when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.’ (CCC 1815)

www.ncregister.com

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And the standard Sola Fide argument would be that it doesn't matter what the Early Church Fathers said because Sola Fide HAS TO BE true because Martin Luther said it?

Thank you all.

To take up the original question of why Jesus was crying out about why the Father had abandoned him, I have an alternative take:

Jesus was just reciting Psalms 22 which is the origin of this quote. The psalm starts with a question as to why it seems that God has abandoned him (David), but by the end of the psalm is returns to statements of hope and knowledge that all will turn out OK.

KT


Psalms 22 (for reference)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

dogs4thewin said:

It is not about just mass shootings.

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You're right. Look at the comment I made earlier showing how often AR-15s have been used in crimes in just the past two weeks. In making the list I specifically included crimes where an AR-15 was used since they are the weapon that's the subject of this thread. There were many other crimes during this same period where other types of assault style weapons were used that didn't make the list.

JosephZ said:

Speaking of 7eleven, this happened just this past Monday:

Manhunt Launched for Suspect Armed with AR-15 in 7/11 Store Robbery

View attachment 346721

Other crimes where an AR-15 was used in the past two weeks:

Glen Carbon man charged, pulled AR-15 on workers at neighbor's home
Resident describes active shooter incident in Marina del Rey as ‘terrifying’; man in custody: 50 Rounds Fired
Shots fired at Rockford rental, 4 guns recovered
Gunman shot by Portland police was high on meth, sent ‘weird’ messages to friend hours earlier
Minnetonka standoff: Body camera video shows shootout
Mass shooting in Chicago leaves girl dead, 10 other people injured in Back of the Yards
2 Charged After Wiley Street Shooting
Man points AR-15 at employees at 2 separate Waffle Houses, police say
Man Wields AR-15 in Road Rage Incident: Arrest and Weapon Cache Uncovered
Man who killed 2 law enforcement officers used rifle with illegal 40-round magazine, sheriff's office says
9 people shot, 2 dead during Orange Mound block party, police say
RIFLE AT THE MALL: Police say 14-year-old brought gun to Coastland Center: Police: The teen had a rifle and marijuana in his backpack
Man Suspected of Pointing Rifle at Motorist in Moreno Valley

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Genders and furries.
And now they are teaching we don't need men because eggs can self fertilize by turning into sperm?

Kids protesting the furries.

cfposter said:

Also, you're saying the church lost connection to the early church but you have no proof that those that testified of the date did so.

Additionally the year Jesus was crucified was the Sabbatical year. He was crucified on the 14th of the LUNAR month. All of the Jewish weeks at that time were based on the Lunar week such that the Sabbaths fell on the 8th,15th, 22nd, and 29th of the Lunar month. This means that the Feast of Unleavened Bread was ALWAYS a high day since it was on the 15th.

The Passover was indeed in March. The early Church Historians attest to this. Also, the Passover was about LIGHT and in opposition to Darkness. Go study Philo of Alexandria on this. The time was period when no portion of the night could be without light such that the Light of the night had to commence with the going down of the sun and shine throughout the night until the rising of the sun.

I agree that the darkness of the crucifixion was not an eclipse. So don't believe that the blood moon sign of Joel had to be an eclipse that Peter told the assembly about on Pentecost. The darkness was one of the nights in the 3 days and 3 nights sign of Jonah.

The crucifixion was indeed in March so much so that the Acts of Pilate were dated in March and the Letter of Pilate to Tiberius as well as the early testaments of the Church Fathers. Now you can consider those writings as fake, but it would be absurd to think that someone who is trying to deceive us would go through such extent and put a date on there deception that would have been obvious to those reading it as a fake if such date was before the actual event.

Here is a good read:

Biblical Calendation: Reckoning the New Year

The Biblical New Year: Is it reckoned according to the ripeness of the barley in Israel? ...or is it reckoned by the Spring equinox? Bible Answers!

www.worldslastchance.com

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"The crucifixion was indeed in March so much so that the Acts of Pilate were dated in March and the Letter of Pilate to Tiberius as well as the early testaments of the Church Fathers." These are false statements. No such dates have been confirmed. The only thing that can be said is that the execution of Sejanus was in October of 31 AD so the crucifixion must have happened earlier that year.

"All of the Jewish weeks at that time were based on the Lunar week such that the Sabbaths fell on the 8th,15th, 22nd, and 29th of the Lunar month" This again is simply false. You don't seem to understand how the luni-solar calendar works.

No, it was not in March. And I have sources that disprove every single one of your claims.

Diamond7 said:

I do not understand the whole thing. God created us, so why would He create people that reject Him? I know they say it is because he wants us to freely love Him and all of that. But still, I do not understand why God would created a world that is in rebellion against their Creator. It just simply does not make any sense.

What is even more difficult to understand is how He takes a situation that is clearly a mess and causes all things to work together for good. Because we are told God is good all the time.

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What is Gods Plan for mankind?
Basically, my understanding is He wants a people who have freely chosen to believe in Him and keep His Commandments. to be His Witnesses in the final trial of Satan. Who was Gods top angel in heaven, but who aspired to be like God. Ezekiel 28:11-15
God can only get those faithful people by giving everyone free choice; do good and stand firm in your faith thru whatever happens, or do your own desires and follow the wide path to destruction.
God is playing a universe sized Game of Thrones and we are in the set, but with the ability to make our own choices.
Choose His way and receive Eternal life. Choose Satans way and be annihilated, along with Death [Satan] Revelation 20:14-15

sampa said:

I mentioned I'd share some dreams that were spiritual. These are dreams that weren't really messages from God but maybe warnings.

1.) Summer of 2000 I was doing a home stay in Kyoto. Also I was studying Japanese and I was having the time of my life. One day I started having these terrible dreams. I won't go into detail but the next morning I saw the grandmother ringing a bell and clapping 3 times with food at the ancestral shrine. Her bedroom was full of mine. I immediately prayed and those dreams went away.
Later in kagoshima I did a two-night home stay with a family. After seeing sites for the day I'm all the family took me to a dark guest room and I fell asleep. Once again I had terrible dreams, my immediate thought is there must be a shrine. Yep, I was at the base if it. I prayed and I didn't have the dreams the 2nd night.
At another homestay in kagoshima I didn't allow for the bad dreams and prayed. I heard movement and rustling in the guest room, but no bad dreams.

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This reminded me of something that happened at least twice. I used to go down to Seattle for a convention with my friends, and we'd stay over a friends house. It was his parent's second home, and there was a some what large buddhist shrine inside. I always stayed in the same bed room each trip. Twice, on Sunday mornings, between two trips, the bed room door opened by itself. At first, I thought a friend opened the door to wake me up, but everyone was asleep. The door latch itself was strong. I think a spirit was trying to intimidate me maybe.

sampa said:

I have probably about five dreams a night, but not every dream is from God. Some dreams are Taco dreams or processing the day.

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I usually have a dream or two each night, however, the ones where God has a message for me, can be months a part. Those ones I wake up remembering vividly, and am even able to start discerning them right away. For regular dreams, I usually forget as soon as a I wake up.

Praying for Moran Yanai and the remaining hostages

GreatLakes4Ever said:

How many dead Palestinian children have to be piled up before your bloodlust is satisfied?

What benefits Hamas the most is Israel turning themselves into an international pariah. Which is exactly what is happening with Israel’s flippant attitude toward the death of thousands of civilian Palestinians. They’re alienating their allies and getting charged with genocide. If this keeps up, no one is going to come to their aid when the Arab world comes after them.

Netanyahu will end up with more Jewish blood on his hands than Hitler because this would absolutely be his doing. The real antisemites are those egging on more Israeli violent aggression against civilians because it is going to spell Israel’s doom.

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Hamas continues and will continue to kill more Palestinian children until Hamas is eliminated.

1/3 more.

This is a bit problematic, as many think of different concepts for "soul". If you define "soul" as an independent entity that lives on in a conscious state separate from the body after death, then...

I am 99% certain that I do NOT have a soul.

Grip Docility said:

That’s exactly what the Jews said!

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So what was the answer regarding changing the over-all meaning of God's word, understood in the light of the words of God the Son?

Apple Sky said:

Only in your last sentence did you mention F.E. And before that you had lot to say about his brush with covid. You even posted a link about him.

Flat Earth theorist, anti-vaxxer Rob Skiba dies from COVID: report​

A champion of the flat Earth movement has reportedly lost his battle with COVID-19. Rob Skiba — said to have come home from a Christian-centric Take On The World conference in August not feeling well — was also a COVID vaccine skeptic, the Daily Beast reports. It was from that conference he...

www.yahoo.com



So how can you say that it was me who changed the subject ?

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I’m not going down that road with you. Get back onto the shape of the earth. You posted a video which showed that it cannot be accurately depicted with a flat map. That’s evidence that the earth is a globe. You chose to ignore that fact.

I just read your link to hermeneutics. Seems you have it all boiled down to a science

If the only thing they share in common is political views and Faith views can the relationship work good and well in the long run ?

Jipsah said:

So a bunch of mentally ill folks eating.. bread. Oh yeah, I'm outraged.

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Rather apathetic.

IF someone outside your door did something to 'stalk' you... you would be like 'meh'?

KevinT said:

I'm sure this has been covered many times, but I couldn't find a similar thread with a quick search, so will start another.
What is meant by the term "Law" in the Bible? I propose that like the word "love", it has many different meanings in the mouth of different people, and in different contexts.
Here are some of the meanings I can think of:

• The general, overall law of Moses. This involves everything given by Moses, which encompasses concepts of civil matters, religious/ceremonial matters, and also moral matters.
• The law as an upholding of a contract. I.e. God said that He would have the Jewish people as His special **IF** they obeyed His laws. So a Pharisee in the time of Jesus could point to their paying a tithe of the herbs in their garden, and assert that this (along with all their other points of obedience) was a complete fulfillment of their duty to uphold their part of the contract. All they had to do was meet the letter of the law and they felt they had done their duty.
• The law as a form of instruction. God imparts wisdom about how a successful society will operate, and it people will follow these instructions, they will naturally prosper. Before the Israelites crossed the Jordan, Moses told them how all the other nations would marvel at how wise their laws that God had given them were. Thus it would not be seen as arbitrary, but rather as something that makes sense and all could see the benefit of them.

So it seems to me that much of the conflict between those how emphasize the importance of the law (I suspect many of the posters to this section of the forums may be in this camp), and those how feel that the law is not longer in effect since Christ "nailed the law to the cross", have to do with different understandings of the word "law."

Examples of this:

• Paul was the apostle sent to the Gentiles. He was following God's direction to gather His sheep from other pastures. But many Jews felt that they needed to follow "the Law", and especially the part of the law regarding circumcision. I feel this was the "contract" interpretation of the law.
• At the counsel in Jerusalem, there was discussion of what rules the Gentiles should be recommended to follow. They set up a very limited set of recommended actions (avoid sexual immorality, the blood of strangled animals and food offered to idols), with an additional mention that all the other elements of the law Moses are continually taught. I interpret this to mean that they were considering the law in its "instruction" aspect. The limited set was a bare minimum of what they felt was needed to keep new converts out of trouble, with the idea that they could learn further concepts over time.
• Paul writes extensively against the law (I feel in its "contract" aspect), but then when a church member marries his father's wife, he rails against the man as acting in a manner that not even the heathen would do. This is a direct application of one command from the Mosaic law (Lev 20:11) against having sex with a father's wife. Most people today understand that it is also a bad practice due to societal issues even aside from religious considerations. Thus Paul is writing this in the "instruction" aspect of the law.
• Paul, after extensively dismissing the "law" and those that felt self-righteous by their rule-keeping, sets out many many rules about how a Christian should live. He essentially gives a new set of rules such that one might even consider all that the Law of Paul. He describes how husbands should treat wives, how wives should behave, how masters should treat slaves etc etc. I'm not exactly sure how to categorize this set of rules. It seems similar to my first bullet point above, as an "overall" rule. And Paul recommended that the man who fell outside it (the one having sex with his mother or step-mother) be "handed over to Satan." Sure sounds Mosaic to me.
• At the death of Jesus, the curtain that separated the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place was miraculously torn by invisible hands. I interpret this to mean that God was doing away with the sacrificial system involving the death of lambs etc, which had always pointed forward to Christ. But a change in the ceremonial aspect of the law wouldn't change the fact that we should, for example, still honor our parents.

So, in modern times, I commonly see the law discussed in these ways. I am not saying that I agree with all these, but rather that these are themes that I see:

• The law is a reflection of God's perfection. As imperfect humans, we can never match up with God's perfect mandates. Therefore Jesus stands in the gap, and the blood of His sacrifice "takes away" our sins in the same way that the sacrificial lamb was sufficient to remove the legal status of "sinfulness" from an errant Israelite. In this framework, sin is a legal debt and Jesus is able to pay off this debt with His blood.
• Or, that any attempt to go back to law keeping is backsliding away from the grace of Jesus. And example of this was when Paul chastised Peter for not eating with the gentiles for reasons related to Jewish law. And if anyone were to speak against eating unclean meat, for example, it would be seen as trying to keep the "contract" aspect of the law, rather than the "instruction" aspect of the law. Mark 7 explicitly states that Jesus declared all foods "clean". So if a piece of meat falls into a sewer, then when retrieved it would still be "clean" in the contractual sense Jesus states. But I think all will agree that it would not be clean in a sanitary or health-wise manner -- and anyone who eats it may still suffer the health consequences with throwing up and diarrhea etc.
• Others seem to make a distinction between written regulations vs Spirit-led actions. The idea here is that any regulation that is written down can be worked around in a manner that obeys the letter of the law but not the original intention. So the argument goes that a Christian will be lead by the Holy Spirit and they don't need regulations. If it seems OK, and they don't have any guidance otherwise from the Spirit, then it must be OK.

So what do I believe?

• Certain actions in life have bad outcomes. God wants to help us to avoid these pitfalls, and thus gives us instructions to avoid certain behaviors. Failure to follow wise instructions is erroneous (sinful), and consequences have to be dealt with.
• God's ways are infinitely better than our ways, and we will always have something more to learn from Him. Even after the 2nd coming of Christ and the establishment of God's new kingdom on earth, we will still be improving and learning through the life-giving instruction from the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit.
• Something that is wrong for one person, who has been taught an advanced concept by God, may not yet be wrong for a person just starting out their journey in Christ. Just like a child is not held to the same standards as an adult, so God meets us sinful humans where we are and does His best to guide us in a good direction. And this is the problem with writing down regulations. They can be discouraging to those not yet reached a level of understanding to incorporate them into their life. And they can be restrictive to others. For example, imaging a regulation of "you must exercise 60 minutes every day." Those just starting can't tolerate this level of intensity, and others my wonder why they are limited to just 1 hr. Thus we should constantly seek God's guidance to help us, while still paying attention to what has been written. So I might try to "exercise 60 minutes", but only succeed to 5 minutes. I pray to God for mercy and keep trying, and with time He helps me succeed.
• There is a very fine line between legalism and "cheap grace" that has to be avoided.

So these are some thoughts that have been buzzing around in my head, and it helps me to try to get them down "on paper."

What do you all think? Have I missed something? Are some of my thoughts above off base?

Best wishes,

Kevin

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The word "law" incorporates all God's regulations in the OT.

In the NT, they are all fulfilled in loving others and God (Ro 13:8, Mt 22:37-40).

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Fox news has the same pov.

Here is my reflection on the Gospel of John 14: 7-14

This is taken from my website here: Daily Bible Verses Easter Season To Pentecost | Saturday Week 4 | Whatsoever Ye Shall Ask In My Name, That Will I Do – Listen To the Bible! | King James Audio Bible | KJV | King James Version

It goes like this - with the KJV:

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

We have known the Father through the Son. Indeed, Jesus now tells the disciples that they have actually seen God the Father. This is the vision of faith, and of our knowledge, as Jesus tells us that he is in the Father and the Father in him. The unknowable, in this life to our natural senses, has become a knowable truth of faith.

This is a great mystery, and still the disciples do not understand. Philip persists in asking Jesus to show them the Father, and now Jesus rebukes him. Having spent so much time so closely with Jesus, hearing his teachings and witnessing all his signs and miracles – the healing miracles, the feeding of the five thousand, the walking on water, the raising of the dead – can Philip not yet see Jesus’ divinity? Can he not believe?

As the apostles are given their mission, to carry the word of God, the truth of Jesus Christ, into the whole world, so Jesus tells them that they too can perform great works, great miracles, if they believe in Jesus as God the Son. As we know, the truth of this teaching was important in bringing people to have faith in the risen Christ. The Book of the Acts of the Apostles tells us of incidents when people’s faith was newly awoken through miracles worked by the apostles in the name of Jesus.

The apostles are sent to heal and to save in the name of Jesus. Jesus tells them that they will do even greater works than he himself has done, perhaps meaning that they will spread the message of Christ throughout the whole world. Whatsoever they ask to be done in Jesus’ name, Jesus will do this for them, and still in complete obedience to his Father. More broadly, we may think of the ways in which we seek to live our lives in accordance with Christ’s name, welcoming Jesus within our souls to heal us, and so that we may do good for others, through practical works and as a Christian example to all.

‘Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.’ Acts 13 46-48

Additionally, here is a psalm of my YouTube - I'm working through them one a day!

Please like and share the YouTube if you would like to do so.

This is Psalm 44:

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Here is a thought, if Paul had been born back in the old days of the Children of Israel, who were being ruled by judges, what would he have done when the prophetess Debra was judging Israel. Would he have "permitted" her to rule over him? I would assert he wouldn't have had a choice, because she was the ruler.

I think Paul's statement about women was his own beliefs based on his life context and upbringing. I don't think that is the commandment of God.

KT

Pommer said:

Are trans people coming to your door to try to talk you into “becoming trans”?
No, they’re trying to live a life but have been prevented in the past because “normal” people thought people with their “condition” was icky.

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In essence yes they are. Social media, the media, and education is doing exactly that.

Some are trying to just live their life, but others are not. Others are working very hard to convince your children they might be trans and if the kid has some unsterotypical characteristics for their sex then they are working diligently to convince them they are trans.

And you are not a dumb person so you are well aware of all the other ways they are trying to force people to behave in certain ways, say certain things and allow harm to be done to women.

This was an interesting post. I just took a deep dive, reading about it on Wikipedia.

There are interesting details apparently in the text. It makes me wonder if it was all made up, all fictional? Or were some of the points true, but so corrupted to be unreliable and not safe to include with scriptures.

I'm curious about why you thought to make this post?

KT