keras said:

The Lord gave me a vision, when my wife and I lived in the Holy Land; 2010-2012.
He inspired me to write out the Bible Prophesies and to help explain them in short articles. All available free at my website; logostelos.info

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And how do you know the reliability and provenance of this vision, particularly when it appears to clash with actual Gospel text of our Lord and His Apostles?

Your opposition to the idea that He will come like “a thief in the night”, that is to say, unexpectedly, appears prima facie to contradict several New Testament scriptures Revelation 16:15,Matthew 24:43,1 Thessalonians 5:2,1 Thessalonians 5:4,2 Peter 3:10.

Either you’re not communicating what you mean on this point clearly, by appearing to refer to the words of our Lord and His Apostles as “disgusting” or you actually disagree with it on the basis of this vision, which would suggest, according to the standards of the New Testament, that the vision was unreliable.

Considering that 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and Galatians 1:8-9 tell us to trust the Apostolic kerygma, and Tradition more broadly, and that Matthew 16:18 promises that “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church”, the fact that you’re unaware of anyone who agrees with your doctrine should also be a huge red flag - the idea that all Christians had it wrong for 20 centuries until you had a vision is problematic and echoes some of the extremist Restorationist groups of the 19th century and other ancient sects whose faith was driven by a visionary figure whose ideas clashed with the prevailing interpretation of Scripture.

There is also the important point, pursuant to that, that millions of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Christians were martyred, and continue to be martyred, for Pagans, Muslims and Communists, for the Christian faith as received from the Apostles. Are you saying the maryrdoms of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, St. James the Great, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Bartholomew, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp, St. Lucia, St. Abanoub and others were in vain?

Valletta said:

I understand, but the whole meaning behind any of the terms using "co-" was that Mary fully cooperated with Jesus. Never was it meant to be on an equal footing, that's why a number of popes, such as John Paul II, used the title.

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Indeed, but the title was never formally dogmatized, and the group pushing for its dogmatization, the Fifth Dogma people, were connected with an apparition the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Blessed Pope Benedict XVI (yes, I referred to him as Blessed; your Congregation for the Causes of the Saints has their schedule for beatification, and I have mine) and later under Gerhard Cardinal Muller, who by rights ought to be Pope now (or Raymond Cardinal Burke, or Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone, or Cardinal Sarah, or the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church; for that matter His Grace Athanasius Schneider ought to be the locum tenems for those German dioceses that issued a form for the blessing of homosexual unions during the Papal interregnum and falsely claimed to have worked with the DDF to implement it, which the DDF denies), rejected as not worthy of belief.

To allow this devotion to have official status would be yet another win for dubious Marian apparitions (the other being Medjugorje), apparitions which unlike those at Fatima, or the miraculous apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe, have not produced any kind of radical mass conversion but which instead have a dark side (for example, Medjugorje has been used by the Franciscans who historically ran all the churches in Herzegovina before it became a Diocese following its incorporation into the Austrian Empire, at which time they were supposed to turn the churches over to Diocesan clergy - at one point they literally bricked up the Church of St. James in Medjurgorje to prevent this from happening) to maintain their influence, and indeed a film was made which depicted the pious Bishop of the Diocese of Mostar in an unflattering light).

Roman Catholics ought to venerate the Theotokos more in the liturgy and in a more controlled manner, with more Marian hymns, better Marian hymns, which already exist in the West by the way; they are in the old Divine Office and Traditional Latin Mass and certain other ancient Latin Masses such as the Ambrosian and Mozarabic - and additionally the importation and Westernization of Eastern Marian hymns such as the Stavrotheotokia, the acheingly beautiful hymns of Mary at the Foot of the Cross, which would go well with the Seven Sorrows devotion, would be very meet. And the use of the Akathist by Western Catholics would be more edifying and focused than the long Rosary services or the Novena.

o_mlly said:

However, dust had no immortal soul. The creative act is God breathing life into lifeless matter. You'll note that the website's facility of providing biblical references with the corresponding text does not support your claim:

The website's text facility:
19 “And son of man, appoint for yourself two ways for the sword of the king of Babylon to go; both of them shall go from the same land. Make a sign; put it at the head of the road to the city.

I am not a YEC and so have no position to defend. However, I think your exegesis may have a bit more of eisgesis in it that one should avoid.

[Psalm 51] A lament, the most famous of the seven Penitential Psalms, prays for the removal of the personal and social disorders that sin has brought. The poem has two parts of approximately equal length: Ps 51:3–10 and Ps 51:11–19, and a conclusion in Ps 51:20–21. The two parts interlock by repetition of “blot out” in the first verse of each section (Ps 51:3, 11), of “wash (away)”.

Psalms, PSALM 51

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

bible.usccb.org

​

I submit that "removal", "blot out" and "wash away" are not creative acts but remedial as in correcting or improving something that has gone wrong (reforming).

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I understand that the word "make" is used as an English translation. But again, the Hebrew word in Ezekiel 21:19 is "bara" which is the same word in Genesis 1:1. I'm not eisegeting anything, I'm exegeting out of the Hebrew text. And English translations vary, but the Hebrew is what the text actually is written in, and thus it is more authoritative than translations. We aren't debating english translations, (which vary widely) we are debating the hebrew word bara and its usage.

In Ezekiel 21:19, Ezekiel is instructed to bara a sign post. A human being is the subject of the verb and he will create the stop sign. He will bara it. And Ezekiel obviously isnt making a sign appear out of thin air. He is using pre existing material.

And regarding Adam, again, nothing material comes into existence. The dust of the ground is already there before God creates Adam.

And I can repeat this all day until people come to terms with the reality of the old testament. Nothing material is coming into existence. And I can give dozens of examples throughout the old testament if I need to.

Again, the point here is that nothing material is coming into existence.

1 Samuel 2:29 is another example:

1 Samuel 2:29 NASB2020
[29] Why are you showing contempt for My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded for My dwelling, and why are you honoring your sons above Me, by making yourselves fat with the choicest of every offering of My people Israel?’

The Hebrew word in this verse is "bara" to create. The passage is saying, "creating yourselves fat".

Again, it's not about material origins. It's about getting fat. And anyone who does a word study on bara can plainly see this. It's just a fact of the text. God baras objects, people bara objects too. God creates. So do people. And never, in the old testament does it mean ex nihilo creation.

New testament authors describe ex nihilo creation of a later Greco roman context. But you'll never find this concept of ex nihilo creation in the old testament.

Again, the point here is that nothing material is coming into existence. In all of the instances of bara throughout the old testament, this is consistently true. The physical material is already there.

Hans Blaster said:

I do know that a lot of people are interested in it because they want to order people around like tough guys.

If there is an agency that has earned total and complete disrespect it is ICE/BCP and it didn't start this year.

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There are definitely people who have no business being in law enforcement but you are judging all of them by the actions of a few.
It's not about ordering people around

I find that ambient and drone music help quiet the endless loops in my head (ADHD for you) and enables me to digest Scripture more easily.

Benaiah468 said:

G-d's plan for Gaza will prevail, regardless of what other nations or NGOs decide, even regardless of what Israel decides.

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Lovely, I await the full disengagement of the US from the conflict as were unnecessary.

stevevw said:

Why should not he appologise for claiming the whole thread is pseudoscience.

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Why should @Warden_of_the_Storm apologise for stating the obvious, this is a bona fide pseudoscience thread.

The only debatable aspect now in this thread which has outlived its relevance by a considerable margin is whether you are that stupid, disingenuous or somewhere in between.
Your MO is to ignore inconvenient facts which contradict your nonsense and double down as if the facts never existed.
Other contributors have also effectively repudiated your nonsense only to be subjected to the same MO.
I will use my posts to summarize why this thread should have ended long ago and its ongoing existence is based on beating a dead horse.

The vase sub thread should have ended when you and your so called experts failed to take into consideration the actual capabilities of modern technology into producing granite vases.
When this was taken into account the odd scans using recognized metrology software shows the vases are nowhere near levels obtained by modern lathes. Then there is the issue of the provenance of the vases….
Despite this you continue to blow your trumpet about the amazing circularity and symmetry of vases based on amateur metrology software which tells you nothing about cylindricity or surface deviations which are the key parameters to determine if vases were made on modern lathes. Recognized metrology software having this capability revealed vases were not made on modern lathes yet your argument is to simply ignore this inconvenient fact.

The other sub-thread on the cutting of granite should have ended when you failed to answer why Khufu’s unfinished sarcophagus ended up the way it did if circular saws were used resulting in a machine finished surface with indications of a circular striations. The plaster cast on the unfinished surface revealing straight striations and a variable kerf is a clear signature of straight saw abrasion cutting and was one piece of evidence in formulating the theory of this cutting method.
As usual your response was to ignore the evidence and carry on as usual.

On those rare occasions when you put your foot in your mouth where even by your standards ignoring the facts is unsatisfactory, a spin story based on lies becomes a necessity.
When you inadvertently dropped the line of obelisks being produced in the 18th dynasty with simple tools it contradicted your conspiracy theory of 18th dynasty obelisks being forgeries as they were constructed with superior Old Kingdom technology.
A spin story based on lies that Old Kingdom obelisks which were made out of granite and were larger and more intricately detailed than 18th dynasty obelisks when the archaeological evidence shows the exact opposite.
Your spin story turned out to having more holes than the original conspiracy theory.

Then there is the spin story of lathe produced granite vases predating the Naqada period to address the discrepancy of the use of knapped tools in this period.
When one of your so called experts puts out a document of high precision granite vases from the Naqada period which you have cited on numerous occasions is not only contradictory but raises the question at the start of my post whether this is an example of incompetence or disingenuous behaviour.

This pseudoscience thread should be allowed to die a natural death.

Dikaioumenoi said:

Because God's decree does not eliminate means; it establishes them. His patience is not uncertainty about the outcome; it's the ordained space in which the elect are brought to repentance according to His timing.

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But this doesn't quite work. Why does He need to have patience with them, if the means is strictly His regenerating them?

Dikaioumenoi said:

How, then, can it makes sense to say it is possible for someone to come, yet the Father's drawing -- the very act that makes it possible -- also fail?

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It's simple: He gives enough grace for them to come, and yet doesn't make that grace irresistible; He wants them to consent. So they're drawn, and may come, or they can resist the draw, or consent but turn back and leave later. In fact, in order for those in Heb 11:6 to taste of the heavenly gift, they must be drawn to, attracted by, that gift first.

Dikaioumenoi said:

Yes, it does. But not for any reason discussed above. What necessitates the conclusion that all who are drawn (i.e., all who are enabled) will come and be raised is that the grammar of the verse identifies the same individual in both clauses. The "him" who is drawn is the same "him" who will be raised:

οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ

This becomes even clearer when phrased contrapositively:

"If he is able to come to me, then the Father has drawn him, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Who will be raised up on the last day? The one who is drawn/enabled. There is no distinction or separate category; the drawing guarantees coming and final resurrection.

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"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him" does not exclude those who refuse to come even though drawn.

And, BTW, Plato used ἑλκούσης to describe common attractions to worldly pleasures and modern Greek uses it similiarly (έλκω).

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Egypt - Cain

I love this song so much. I feel closer to God when I listen to it.

Christians should carefully read John 4:21-24, Romans 11:1-36 ( especially Romans 11:21-23)and beware of the current extreme, anti Israel sentiments that are emerging. Unbelievers should read and be hopefully converted.

Israel has a lot to answer for but it has enemies who will always try to not allow it to even exist.

I'm happy to have lived in an age of biblical enlightenment and have witnessed what it represents, the continual defeat of good by evil and the doom to come, but knowing ultimately that HIS Will will be done, not rebellious man's or elohim's who refuse to learn from history in their selfish rampage towards destruction.

Valletta said:

The more monitors the better. We don't need a repeat of Michigan. Lara Trump recruited more than 100,000 poll watchers.

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Crooked Trump monitors don't make an election better

9Rock9 said:

No problem. It was quite the journey for me. Like most evangelicals in the Bible Belt, I was a young earth creationist just because that was what I was taught, and evolution is a gateway to atheism. I used to be pretty militant about it.

I did everything shift to Old Earth Creationism, as I thought it made more logical sense, but I was still critical of evolution. At that point, it was less evolution itself and more that I thought a non-literal reading of Genesis was disingenuous, which I thought was required in order to fit evolution in.

I don't think the mytho-history view necessitates evolution, but I no longer think evolution conflicts with a high view of scripture, either.

I think the real reason I was so anti-evolution is that I didn't like having my intelligence mocked for wanting to believe the Bible, and it closed me off to other viewpoints. So, while I am no longer convinced of creationism, at least not YEC, I still sympathize with it because I used to agree with it, and many of my friends and family still affirm it.

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I can understand the angst involved in all of that, even if my wrestling with these issues has been as someone who began as a child, and later as an adult, with evolution and mainstream science and who then tried to make heads or tails out of any kind of veracity that could be found in the collection of Biblical Texts. It's not easy to do, so everyone on all sides has my sympathy.

This is also one reason that where the first 11 chapters of Genesis are concerned I try to be especially gracious. There's so much to wrestle with and so I try not to contend with other Christians on the matter, whether they're YEC or evolutionary like myself.

Discussion 1 was about Eve. This discussion will be about Adam, and at times Eve, because on certain points it was impossible to not to mention her.

I won't be talking about every single thing regarding Adam that is brought up in the book (there is a lot), so I picked certain things.


Before I begin, please remember that this is posted in the Egalitarian forum. If you are interested in participating in this discussion, please read the Statement of Purpose and make sure your post doesn't violate it. There were issues/problems that came up in Discussion 1 and I do not want that to happen again. It resulted in Moderator action. Thank you.


Read Genesis 2 and 3 in your Bible. I will post a link to the NIV translation, but you are welcome to read whichever translation you prefer.





Some points about Adam (and sometimes Eve) mentioned in "God's Word to Women":

1. Adam and Eve were in one body in the beginning; they were created at the same time but Adam was "formed" first, then Eve (Paragraphs 23, 24, 30)
   
   
   

   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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2. With the above point in mind, Eve was taken out of Adam's "side" not "rib" (Paragraphs 38, 39, 41, 42, 43)
   
   
   

   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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3. At one point in time, Adam was free to eat from the Tree of Life, but he chose not to (Paragraph 31)
   
   
   

   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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4. Adam was given certain responsibilities concerning the Garden of Eden; Adam did not fulfill his responsibilities since Satan entered the Garden (Paragraphs 31, 36, 37, 69)
   
   

   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

   archive.org
   
   
   

   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

   archive.org
   
   
   

   God`s Word to Women : katherine c. bushnell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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5. According to Bushnell and others, Adam's condition of "good" did not last; this problem led to Eve being formed and taken out of the side as a superior help (Paragraphs 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)
   
   
   

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What did you think of these points? Agree or disagree? Not sure? Do any of these statements contradict what you have been taught?

I've recently posted on my blog site about a Test of Faith I've had with Nike, which ultimately , resulted in me being let go of the role.
I would be curious on anyones thoughts and advice here -

#1. AS. // HOS. is an. ADVERB

# 2 ALSO. // KAI. is a CONJUNCATION

# 3. IN. // EN. is a PREPOSITION

# 4 ALL. // PAS. is. in the DATIVE CASE. an. in. the PLURAL

# 5. HIS EPISTLES. //. EPISTOIE. inch DATIVE CASE in the PLURAL

# 6. SPEAKING. // LALEO. in the PRESENT TENSE. , in. the ACTIVE VOICE. is a PARTICIPLE. in the NOMINATIVE CASE a SINGULAR

# 7 IN. // EN. is. a PREPOSTION

# 8 THEM // AUTOS. is a PRESONAL POSSESSETIVE PRONOUN. in. the DATIVE CASE. in. the PLURAL

# 9 OF. // PERI. is a PREPOSTION

# 10 THESE. THINGS. // LOUTON. is a DEMONSTRATIVE PROMOUN. in. the GENITE CASE in. the NEUTER in. the PLURAL

# 11. IN. //. EN. , is a PREPOSTION

#12 WHICH. // HOS. is a RELATIVE PRONOUN. in. the DATIVE CASE. in. the PLURAL

# 13 ARE. //. ESTI. in. the PRESENT TENSE in. the INDICATIVE MOOD. in. the SINGULAR

# 14 SOME THINGS // ESTI in the PRESENT TENSE in. the INDICATIVE MOOD in v the SIGNULAR

# 15. HARD TO BE UNDER STOOD. //. DYSNOSTOS. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE , in. the PLURAL in. the NEUTER

# 16 WHICH. //. HOSis a RELATIVE PRONOUN. in a NOMINATIVE CASE. in. the PLURAL. is a NEUTER

# 17. THEY. THAT. // HO. is a DEFINITE ARTICLE. is a NOMINATIVE CASE. in. the PLURAL

# 18. ARE UNLEARNED. // AMATHES. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

# 19 AND. // KAI. is a CONJUNCATION.

# 20 UNSTABLE // ASTENKTOS

# 21. WREST. // STREBL. in. the PRESENT TENSE. in the ACTIVE VOICE in the INDICATIVE MOOD in. the PLURAL

# 22 AS. //. HOS is an ADVERB

# 23. ALSO. // KAI is a CONJUNCATION

# 24 THE //. HO. is a DEFINITE ARTICLE. in. the ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

# 25 OTHER // LOIPOS. in. the ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the PLURAL

# 26. SCRIPTURES. //. GRAPHE. in. the ACCUSATIVE CASE. in. the PLURAL

# 27. UNTO. //. PROSis a PREPOSTION

# 28 THEIR // AUTOS is a PERSONAL POSSESSEITIVE PRONOUN. in. the GENITIVE CASE in. th PLURAL

#29 OWN //. DIOS. is a ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR.

# 30 DESTRUCTION. // APOLEIA. in the ACCUSATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR

as they. do also the rest of the SCRIPTURES

# A. This just shows that Peter was teaching THE LAW

# B And Peter did not a GRACE teacher as was Paul

# C And Peter was WARNING all that. there though that had the TRUTH and were also doing destruction to. the

rest of the. SCRIPTURES .and even. Peter sees the difference between LAW and GRACE !!
dan p

essentialsaltes said:

U.S. tsunami warning system, reeling from funding and staffing cuts, is dealt another blow​

Seismic monitoring stations in Alaska are closing after a denied federal grant, risking delayed tsunami warnings for people living on the West Coast.

Nine seismic stations in Alaska are set to go dark this month, leaving tsunami forecasters without important data used to determine whether an earthquake will send a destructive wave barreling toward the West Coast.

The stations relied on a federal grant that lapsed last year; this fall, the Trump administration declined to renew it. A NOAA grant for about $300,000 each year had supported the stations.

The U.S. has two tsunami warning centers — one in Palmer, Alaska, and the other in Honolulu — that operate around-the-clock making predictions that help emergency managers determine whether coastal evacuations are necessary after an earthquake. The data from Alaska’s seismic stations has historically fed into the centers.

Both centers are already short-staffed.

Additionally, the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration has decreased funding for the National Tsunami Hazard Mitigation Program, which pays for the majority of states’ tsunami risk reduction work.

On top of that, NOAA laid off the National Weather Service’s tsunami program manager, Corina Allen, as part of the Trump administration’s firing of probationary workers in February, according to Harold Tobin, the Washington state seismologist. A

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They really took a wrecking ball to the government but it's not like we were not warned.

Two courts urge ICE to halt deportation of man wrongfully imprisoned for more than 40 years​

Two different courts have called on immigration officials to halt deportation of a Pennsylvania man who spent more than 40 years in prison for a murder conviction that was recently overturned.

Subramanyam Vedam, 64, was brought to the United States by his parents when he was nine months old. Vedam is a legal permanent resident

He is currently being held in a short-term center in Alexandria, Louisiana, which is equipped with an airstrip for deportations.

He has maintained his innocence in the murder case throughout his time in prison and his conviction was overturned this year. He was released from state prison on 3 October only to be taken straight into immigration custody.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement is seeking to deport Vedam over his no contest plea to charges of LSD delivery, filed when he was about 20.

“Having a single conviction vacated will not stop ICE’s enforcement of the federal immigration law,” Tricia McLaughlin, assistant secretary for public affairs, said in an email.

Editing federal employees’ emails to blame Democrats for shutdown violated their First Amendment rights, judge says​

A federal judge ruled Friday that the Department of Education violated the First Amendment rights of some agency employees when it sent out-of-office messages on their behalf that blamed Democrats for the government shutdown.

The ruling from US District Judge Christopher Cooper is the latest court rebuke of controversial moves by the Trump administration during what has now become the longest shutdown in US history.

Cooper permanently barred the administration from “modifying furloughed employees’ out-of-office e-mail messages to include partisan speech” for all members of the union American Federation of Government Employees.

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A good video about the unreliability of radiometric dating.

Michie said:

Open coffin and chaplain in a Dracula cape: Church receives hate comments for "Halloween service"

A Halloween service with an open coffin, artificial fog, and a chaplain in a Dracula cape: This pleased around 50 residents of Freising – and angered many others.



But the Latin Mass is the problem



Halloween and the Catholic Church, do they somehow go together? Yes, says Freising parish vicar Michael Korell, pointing to the Catholic origins of the evening before All Saints' Day and therefore advocating for a "Halloween service" on October 31 in the Mortuary chapel at St. George's Cemetery. With plenty of artificial fog, a semi-open coffin, and a touch of spooky atmosphere.

Under the Dracula cape, Chaplain Michael Korell wore his official vestments.

Continued below.

Catholic priest holds Halloween service dressed as Dracula - video

cathcon.blogspot.com

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.... That's interesting. I'm not sure that this form of 'seeker friendly' service really does the job or represents the appropriate awareness of sanctity. But that's just my comment in passing.

Always in His Presence said:

Bringing peace into several cities

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You have got to be kidding.

Rev 4.4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

In 1 Chron 24, David set up 24 head priests, descended from Aaron. This was just the random number that developed from the number of families descended from Aaron at that time. It may have been God's way of expressing a double witness to the significance of Israel's 12 tribes. Everything was confirmed, as legitimate testimony under the Law, when there was a minimum of 2 witnesses. Aaron had two surviving sons, from whom these 24 leading priests were taken.

So the 24 elders appear to serve as representatives of the priestly order of Christ, whose atonement opened the gate for our entry into Heaven. They were dressed in white to show that Christians, who have access to Heaven, are made pure in the blood of Christ. And they had gold crowns, indicating that Christians have the authority of Christ, their head, to judge the world.

The lightning and thunder indicate that the purification of the Church leads to judgment of this world. The 7 blazing lamps are representative of the 7 churches in John's time, among which the faithful live by the Spirit of God. This brings conviction and judgment to the world around them.

I would suggest that these agents, ie the 24 elders and the 7 spirits, are angels, who represent what Christ has done for and in the Church. And the same follows for the 4 living creatures. They are angels representing something with respect to Christians, whom Christ has redeemed by his sacrifice.

These 4 creatures have the face of a man, which hearkens back to the Creation, when God gave Man rulership over the earth and over its creatures. These particular creatures serve the purpose of Man, after his redemption, to bring judgment upon the earth.

This judgment has been ongoing, from the time of the Fall, and even after the redeeming work of Christ. And it will be consummated at the Return of Christ, when the world will be judged in the Battle of Armageddon, and in Eternity through Christ's final sentencing.

The 4 creatures include both a lion and a flying eagle, both signifying God's predatory judgments against sinners, whether nations or their rulers. The "flying" eagle signifies that the judgment is already in process.

The 4 creatures also include an ox, representative of the plowing up of hardened land. The hardened land indicates nations, including Israel, who have resisted the Gospel of Christ, and must be plowed up in order to fulfill God's purposes on earth.

All of these things, before God's throne, indicates what transpires from the time of Christ's death to the consummation of His purposes at the Return of Christ. Judgment is ongoing, but delayed, until final judgment falls at the Return of Christ.

Gregory Thompson said:

The book also says those who add to the words of the book will have plagues in it added to them, and those who take away from the words, the blessings will be taken away.

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I'm not re-writing the bible into my own translation and then handing that out to the public... I'm trying to figure stuff out and I think you're misinterpreting that. Based on your own stance for this, because I think you're misinterpreting this verse, I could give you the same warning. See why you shouldn't do that? Going around telling everyone they'll have the 10 plagues of Egypt when they're trying to understand scripture, is going to put them off from even trying in the first place. You are literally fear-mongering to silence alternative interpretations which is seriously vile misuse of scripture.

Gregory Thompson said:

That's what the scripture verse says: Men not defiled by women.

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We'll have to agree to disagree because there's symbolic queues for me to interpret this not literally.

Gregory Thompson said:

The mirror to the tribes is the disciples of the original 12 apostles.

All who believe fit under one of these.

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That has nothing to do with the tribe list of Revelation though. OT sure, but not this one.

All in all, we will have to agree to disagree.

The Barbarian said:

Of course it's significant. But we have evidence of human structures earlier than that. I don't think anyone was surprised that humans would stay in a place that had all the resources they needed, or that they'd be making tools, possibly for trade. Interesting, but not a surprising find.

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Environmental conditions changed dramtically over the time for which the site was occupied and tool use continued. A more reasonable expectation is that as the environment changed the population would move in order to remain in one where the conditions were ones they were familiar with. I understand such shifts are observed today and have been identified in the past. As such, describing this continuity as surprising seems a reasonable position, though I would prefer unexpected - it's less emotive.