fhansen said:

A person of faith certainly must desire to fulfill the law but Jesus railed against law-abiders who obeyed for other, legalistic, reasons, such as the Pharisees who He called whitewashed tombs, clean on the outside while filthy on the inside in Matt 23, or like Paul in Phil 3 calling the righteousness he excelled at as a Pharisee garbage. Grace must precede and accompany and compel everything regarding this matter.

Otherwise, what do you consider the difference between the old and new covenants to be? What did Jesus accomplish? What is reconciliation between man and God all about? Why was Paul so excited about the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith, not the law, in Phil 3:9?

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The Hebrew word "yada" refer to intimate relationships/knowledge gained through experience such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God's way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus and embodying His likeness through experiencing being a doer of His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) God, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life.

The problem is that someone can go through the outward motions of obeying God's law while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was graciously given in order to teach us how to embody and thus neglecting to know God and Jesus. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. Jesus saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them does not leave room to interpret Philippians 3:8-9 as saying that God's law is rubbish and we just need to focus on knowing Christ instead. Rather, Paul has been obeying God's law, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and that is what he counted as rubbish.

Character traits are not earned as the result of our works, but rather they are embodied through our works, so God's law was not given as a way to earn righteousness or God's other character traits, but as instructions for how to embody them. We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in Jesus. In other words, the way to believe in God is by walking in His way. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are embodying God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exact the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and it by this faith alone that we attain righteousness and the other character traits of God.

The difference between the the Mosaic and New Covenant is that the New is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6), but it still involves following God's law (Hebrews 8:10). The way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Matthew 4:15-23, Titus 2:14). The reconciliation between God and man is about embodying His likeness through being a doer of His characters traits.

Always in His Presence said:

No, it did not need to happen this way - it could have happened in November when it was originally scheduled and agreed upon - hmmm.. why the need to change? I wonder.

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Wait, wait.... are you claiming that the GOP agreed to extend the ACA subsidies last November, well before the so-called Big Beautiful Bill passed? Cool. Could you please provide documentation on that, so I can save it and frame it for posterity?

-- A2SG, unless you meant something else...your post wasn't exactly clear.....

Yes, I think it does.

bèlla said:

Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson signed an executive order on Monday establishing "ICE-free zones" on city property.

City property — including parking lots next to Chicago public schools, libraries, parks and city buildings — cannot be used as staging grounds for raids by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents, under an executive order signed Monday aimed at what Mayor Brandon Johnson called President Donald Trump’s “forceful display of tyranny.”

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Wow! I wonder how that would play out in the Supreme Court?

The Australian Federal government used troops during the first months of covid to greet people at the airport and take them to a hotel for quarantine. I for one was relieved - as this was back in the early days when there was no vaccine and we did not know how our health system was going to survive the exponential growth of the disease and consequent flooding of our hospitals. That can happen so fast that soon we could have family members dying of simple things like kidney stones, or a broken leg that went gangrenous, simply because there were no hospital beds left to treat these simpler matters!

But that was when our police force WAS overwhelmed trying to deal with those recalcitrant members of our population. And Aussies were generally more respectful of the need for lockdowns than Americans raised with their 'bill of rights' and the 'right to free movement' taught to them from a young age. (I'm ALL FOR human rights - but against a Bill of Rights in this respect. But that's another lengthy matter!)

But in the USA? I'm not sure how your Federal vs State laws overlap and contradict each other in jurisdiction matters like this.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out!

Good luck!

Earl

bèlla said:

Sometimes the government surprises me.

The Department of Homeland Security has shared a montage of ICE raids alongside clips and music from the Pokemon theme song, as the Trump administration continues to ramp up its hardline stance on immigration. In the compilation of footage, which was posted on Monday (22 September), enforcement agents can be seen arresting individuals, whilst clips of the popular anime show are interspersed throughout. The one-minute video, captioned with “Gotta Catch ‘em All!”, ends with Pokemon cards showing the people arrested and their alleged crimes.

~bella

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About THIS administration? That surprised you?

Gracious Heavenly Father and Lord Jesus,
I pray that you would relieve the stress that Ave Maria's fiancé is going through right now. When his head is clear, please help him to develop better communication habits for when he is suffering from stress and pain. Help him to understand that Ave Maria is trying to be there for him in his hours of pain and stress and that he doesn't have to constantly perform romance in front of her to be accepted.

And dear Lord, please be there for Ave Maria as well. Some of the human beings you have made, when they are in distress, they need to talk. When someone else is in distress, they need to talk. And some of us, when times are difficult, communication is yet another burden on a too-full mind. Lord, you know well how much I like to withdraw and think and write when I am suffering. You also know how much my boyfriend likes to talk when he is suffering. Help these two to come to a communication balance that works for the two of them, that does not leave either one hurting or overwhelmed.
In Christ's Name,
Amen

Bro.T said:

What you don't understand is Paul talks about two different types of death, Paul talks about two different types of laws, and you have to learn to separate between the laws and death that Paul/ talks about. Many people reads Paul's writing all the time and not understand what laws Paul is talking about. God had Peter to clearly warn people about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.

This is why you must rightfully divide the word of God, you must find out where every thing fits because fit it does. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, (not man) a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2Tim. 2:15)

Let's take a look at a perfect example of Paul/ talking about two laws in one verse. Let's go into Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sights for by the law is the knowledge of sin. The deeds of the law is referring to the animal sacrificial laws, all those sacrifices can never remove sins, so they could never be justified. Paul explains animal sacrificial law and Hebrews 10th Chapter. This is true because the blood of Jesus can only justify us. The animal sacrificial laws was added because people continue to sin, and the wages of sin bring for death. So instead of God killing people every time they sin, the Lord gave Moses a law to use, animals. So by the other law (Ten Commandments, Statutes and Judgement) is the knowledge of sin. Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. You wouldn’t know what sin was if there was no law.

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Some interpreters of Romans 3:20 suggest that Paul must be speaking of two different laws—perhaps distinguishing between the ceremonial law and the moral law. But a closer look at the text shows that this is not the case.

First, the Greek text itself does not support such a division. Paul uses the singular nomos (“law”) throughout the passage. Both the phrases “works of the law” and “through the law” are singular. There is no grammatical shift to suggest that he has two different laws in view. Paul is treating the law as one unified whole.

Second, the immediate context confirms this unity. In Romans 3:9–19, Paul has just demonstrated from a series of Old Testament quotations that all people—Jew and Gentile alike—are under sin. Then in verse 19 he concludes, “whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped.” Here, “the law” plainly refers to the Torah as a whole, functioning as God’s covenant standard. Verse 20 follows directly from this point: “For by works of the law no human being will be justified.” Paul is drawing one conclusion from one law, not from two.

Third, Paul’s real contrast in this passage is not between ceremonial and moral law, but between law and faith. He makes this explicit in verse 21: “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law…through faith in Jesus Christ.” The issue is not which kind of law could justify, but rather that no form of law-keeping justifies at all. Justification comes by faith in Christ alone.

Paul makes the same point in Galatians 2:16, almost word for word: “a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.” There too, Paul refers to Torah as a whole—circumcision, dietary regulations, and moral commands alike. He never divides it into two separate laws to explain justification.

Finally, we should note that Jewish thought at the time did not separate the law into “moral” and “ceremonial” categories. Torah was seen as a unified covenant given at Sinai, binding in all its parts. When Paul says “the law,” his Jewish and Gentile audience would have understood it to mean that covenantal law in its entirety, not two different systems.

In light of these considerations, Romans 3:20 does not refer to two different laws. Paul consistently uses “the law” to mean the Torah in its entirety. His argument is that no form of law-keeping—whether ritual observance or moral obedience—can justify a sinner before God. The law reveals sin, but it cannot remove it. Justification comes only through faith in Christ.

I’ve seen the body of St. Clare. I’d this the first time in centuries his body is being removed from his tomb? Wonder if he’s incorruptible or not.

Ave Maria said:

Hey everyone. Thank you for your prayers. Physical therapy for my knee is going well, and it is helping some, but progress is slow. I did get an injection in my knee yesterday to help with the pain.

As for everything else, I'm trying to decide whether I want to do online college or not.

I'm also going through a lot of stress with my fiancé and I.

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Continued prayers!

tdidymas said:

because there was clearly law and transgression before Moses.

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paul in my opinion mixes up "law" and "knowledge of transgression" and "law of moses" with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. and over the last half dozen years in various forums i point this out.. usually no one replies to argue he doesn't mix this up.

I think peter made the same mistake but it is not overt and to my knowledge, no one seems to be interested in arguing about peter and potentially James' positions, they would rather argue paul is correct.

So when Peter stands up at Pentecost and declares to the masses "God in former times over looked such matters but now commands everyone everywhere to repent"

well... God has always been commanding everyone everywhere to repent, and i seem to be the only person on the entire internet who has ever pointed this out (yes seriously, if you can find someone who has written some article to the effect that peter was wrong in declaring this, please link it to me) . its just a matter of.. repent to which law? the gentiles were not under the torah, but the ten commandments has always been.. pretty much self evident.

This is people are getting tired of ICE. Harassing non illegal people and non dangerous, that are having a good time. They seem more like a danger to good , more than bad people. This is more Trump fault. He like to harass Blue States. I know there are illegals in Red States.

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN said:

Some Trump supporters are starting to call this a Democrat hoax.

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Sure. What isn't, these days?

-- A2SG, the new MAGA go-to....call anything a democrat hoax.....

Baggy Pants and the Nitwits

Hentenza said:

The answer is no.

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You are saying no, you don't understand the difference between the 2 statements?

That was my simple question to you.

I am not asking whether or not you agree with the 2 statements, I am just asking whether you understood the difference

Servus said:

That hardly puts to rest that CNN is as left-wing as Fox is right-wing.

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That's not what I said though, is it?

David Lamb said:

Bearing witness to the fact of the resurrection is not the same as actually seeing the risen Christ, which is a requirement for an apostle.

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I suppose to see the risen Christ you'd have to die and be resuscitated. Otherwise Jesus's Spirit can certainly manifest and be with you.

Early church fathers Irenaeus and Tertullian had an interpretation of apostolic succession.

The greater revelation of God of those who saw and heard Him in close fellowship, the 12 apostles is a firm foundation we can't match. Paul gives us hope of ability to serve despite a lack of repute or revelation of God. We can all have a revelation of God, some of us today have been taken up into the Heavenlies like Gary Oates.

Some have a remarkable impression of God in them, some who seek His hand and face, panim, at home and church, and God has filled them deeply. From King David, deep calls unto deep. And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit and He is here with us, and can reveal Himself to us in degrees.

Ephesians 4 requires apostles until Christ returns, and because of deception and wolves in rebellion to the truth, we need them as the verses say.
So there was Paul, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junias...
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

From ChatGPT:
Good question — the Biblical requirements for an apostle depend on whether we’re talking about the original Twelve Apostles, Paul, or later church-appointed messengers (the word “apostle” just means “one who is sent”). But Scripture does outline some clear qualifications, especially in the early Church.
Let’s go through them carefully:

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1. For the Original Twelve Apostles​

After Judas died, the remaining eleven chose a replacement — Matthias — and the Book of Acts records the qualifications clearly:

Acts 1:21–22 (ESV)
“So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

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So the original apostolic requirements were:

1. Personal companionship with Jesus during His earthly ministry (from John’s baptism onward).
2. Eyewitness of the resurrection — literally having seen the risen Christ.
3. Chosen by God (Acts 1:24–26 shows the apostles prayed for divine choice).

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2. For Paul (the “Apostle to the Gentiles”)​

Paul was an exception to the “followed Jesus from the beginning” rule, but even he insisted on seeing the risen Christ and being directly commissioned by Him:

1 Corinthians 9:1 — “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?”
Galatians 1:1 — “Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father.”

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Paul met Jesus in a post-resurrection appearance (Acts 9) and was specifically sent (apostellō) by Him.
Paul’s apostolic credentials:

• Personally encountered the risen Christ.
• Commissioned directly by Jesus (not self-appointed).
• Confirmed by miraculous signs and the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 12:12).
• Produced spiritual fruit and doctrine consistent with Christ’s gospel (Gal 1:11–12).

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3. For Later “Apostles” (Missionary Sense)​

In the New Testament, others are sometimes called apostoloi (messengers), though not part of the Twelve:

• Barnabas (Acts 14:14)
• Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7)

In this broader sense, an apostle was:

• Sent out by the church or the Spirit (Acts 13:2–3)
• Carrying the gospel with divine authority
• Endorsed by the fruits of ministry and godly character

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4. Summary Table​

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5. Conclusion​

In Biblical terms, to be a true apostle one must:

• Be personally called and sent by Christ,
• Have seen the risen Lord,
• Demonstrate signs, teaching, and fruits authenticating divine commission.

After the first generation, the apostolic office ceased in that original sense (since no one afterward could meet those eyewitness criteria). Later Christian leaders could be apostolic in mission and doctrine, but not in authority or revelation equal to the Twelve and Paul.

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Would you like me to show how early Church Fathers (like Irenaeus or Tertullian) interpreted apostolic succession next?

zippy2006 said:

Again, "without consent" it not a context in which rape is permissible.

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Correct! The context is included in the term. Just like it is with murder.

'Sexual intercourse without consent' and 'rape' mean exactly the same thing. They are interchangeable. You can substitute one with the other. But you want to somehow deny that.

Sorry. You can't. Again, the context is included in both. Which you will now illustrate for everyone's benefit by giving the definition of rape:

'The definition of rape is...'

Please fill in the rest. Thanks in advance.

Then why didn't it come out through all those needless, vindictive investigations?

fhansen said:

And still some, after having tasted of the heavenly gift (Heb 6:4), or coming to the knowledge of Christ (2 Pet 2:20-22), may yet prefer to return to their death, to the flesh, like a dog to its vomit.

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Has nothing to do with God regenerating a person

Yarddog said:

Yep

Nope

Why?

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You disagreed with your own statement.

Yarddog said:
There is medicine to help those with ADHD to live fairly normal lives. My nephew has ADHD and is an Engineer with several degrees. That takes concentration.

Living a faithful Godly life doesn't take a lot of concentration.

bbbbbbb said:

In what sense do you understand "upholding God's Law" to mean? Does it mean obedience to all of God's commandments in the Bible?

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The way to have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live through His law is straightforwardly by obeying His law, which also straightforwardly refers to the set of laws that God has given.

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in Jesus. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are embodying God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is just is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of justice in obedience to His law, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and it is by this faith alone that we attain the character traits of God, which is how our faith upholds God's law.

RileyG said:

It’s sort of like asking a straight person asking if they can force themselves to be attracted to the same sex. I won’t comment further, but it’s an interesting thought experiment.

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Exactly. That has been my contention all along. As therapists go, I consider myself more experienced and better than average. I don't have the know how or words to get a straight person to change their sexual orientation. It would be pretty arrogant of me to think that I can help a gay person change theirs -- even more so if it is because their dad or their pastor thinks they need to change, rather than thinking it themselves.

article said:

We’ve seen a recent surge in religiosity among young people, along with other stirrings of possible renewal within Western culture. In fact, history, particularly Christian history, consists of a series of near-defeats that give way to unexpected renewal and the emergence of something even better than what came before.

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Let's all pray that this is the case. I remember that St. John Paul II once said that the future of the Church would be from Africa; maybe his prophecy will be proved true.

fhansen said:

Man can't save himself, but he can refuse to be saved. This is at God's discretion, for our highest good. Man can respond to grace, to God, or not, or respond today and later turn back away.

The gospel is simple. We don't call Him but if we answer when He calls, we become His people, connected to the Vine, and He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. If we remain in Him, John 15:5, we will produce much good fruit-and that fruit, in fact, is the best evidence that we're one of His.

So, the nearer we draw to Him, the nearer He draws to us and the more like Him we become- the more we begin to love as He does to put it best. And that love is the true mark of our sonship as well as our justice/righteousness; it's the law fulfilled in us, and the authentic motivator for the fruit that separates the sheep from the goats. It's our purpose, the reason we were created. And that's our salvation, not just escaping the fires of hell but becoming something great and noble that God has had in mind for man since the beginning.

You've simply taken texts that were made for exhortation and encouragement, and that will certainly end up pertaining to some who've heard them, and understood them in a wooden, fundamentalist black or white manner and as applying specifically to yourself, and infallibly so, while ignoring any warnings and admonishments that are also in scripture.. And while believers can certainly have a strong level of assurance, supported by the presence of that aforementioned fruit, and while God is infinitely trustworthy and true, no one can predict whether or not they will end up as good soil with some kind of perfect and infallible, absolutely certainty. That has never been part of the Christian faith.

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How do you refuse to be saved?