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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Except for the clear observational evidence of melted, weakened or softened stones. I gave you th evidence you you skipped it. Its easy to claim no evidence when you skip it.

So what do you think this is. How is this stupid. It is you I think who is being silly by claiming that this is not evidence for stone melting and softening.

View attachment 374250 View attachment 374251 View attachment 374252

First image vitrified and melted stones at Dun Knock Hill Fort. Image two softened stones showing vitrification and flaking of surface at Cusco. Image 3 melted and fused stones of vitrified ramparts in Scotland. The paper for this was in the video I linked.

So I fail to see how you claim there was no evidence.
For the millionth time you half wit these are not examples of vitrification or melting, they are pictures of rocks and a wall.
For example this is the level of evidence you should supply.

combine.png

The obsidian rock has not been vitrified but a rapid cooling igneous rock which produces the glassy amorphous state one would expect from vitrification.

Just in case you want to dismiss the above heres some more.

View attachment 374253

If you possessed the intellectual capacity and honesty you would have not cherry picked images and ignored the very laboratory tests that were required to verify vitrification had occurred.

For this study, vitrified rocks obtained from the Iron Age Broborg hillfort site were compared to laboratory-heated rocks of various types. X-ray diffraction (XRD), optical microscopy, and analytical electron microscopy—scanning electron microscopy (SEM) with backscattered electron (BSE) or energy dispersive spectroscopy (EDS) plus electron probe microanalysis-wavelength dispersive spectroscopy (EMPA-WDS)—were used to study the samples in this work.
Why did you exclude the most important images in the Nature report showing the laboratory testing of the hillfort samples?

Fig_2.png

Fig_3.png


If you had read the report, fire whether it was by accident or design was used to vitrify the rocks which is a far cry from some advanced technology such as the use of radioactive polonium expounded by one of your so called experts.


Its not just about Egypt. But they definitely had some way of softening stones. Similar signatures are found between the Egyptian stones in walls and the Purvians.

I gave you the paper on the tests which showed that the cast blocks at Menkaure pyramid. They found Diatomaceous Earth (DE) within the mix which was not natural to limestone. Its easy to claim no evidence when you ignore it.

Then theres the scoop marks. You ignored all that evidence. Never mentioned it once. All you did was claim they used bigger pounders without one bit of evidence. Just like the claim that the split the pyramid blocks within evidence. Contradicting your own side that the blocks were hand sawed.

You forget I provided images of softened stones on the Temples around the pyramids and within the cemetaries east and west. You fobbed this off with the stock standard unsupported claim that the Egyptians must have pounded and ground the stone to look like it spread like putty within cracks lol. I guess pounding and grinding can do anything. But you provided absolutely no evidence for this.

View attachment 374255

So please be consistent and deal with that evidence. Either provide the same level of demands you want of me with peer review or something scientific showing that this was done by grinding or stop making unsubstanciated claims and then have the hide to claim I have provided no evidence. Its easy to make that claim when you ignore or dismiss my evidence.

I have more than provided evidence that the ancients were able to melt, soften, fuse, reconstitute and weaken stones. And I am not going back to reprove what I have already linked that you ignored. If you want to dispute this then find the links as I am not redoing this for the 5th time lol.

Already did last post and you ignored it. So please go back and check. As well as what is provided above.
You are an illiterate fool, I have supplied you with peer reviewed articles for Egyptology showing melting did not occur.
Your psychological projection has reached absurd heights, you have have consistently ignored the refuting evidence but project your behaviour on others.
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Ellen White on the mark of the beast for those that worship on Sunday

I never said it was God expanded on this same event, both are true, Scripture does not delete Scripture
Strawman. No one has argued that. Scripture has to be understood in context not by reading doctrines into verses.
and just because you don't like Eze20:15-
I love Ezekiel but it does not say what you say it does.
where God said verbatim why the Israelites did not enter into their promised land of rest, doesn't make what God said plainly not true.
Not really. The sabbaths listed here is plural so it does not necessarily mean the weekly sabbath. In fact, if Ezekiel was talking about THE sabbath then it would not be plural. You continue to read your pet doctrine into scripture. The rest of your post I have already addressed many times before do not wasting my time.
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Asking AI to explain Sunday observance when NT has no such command

Then AI gave this "Biblical Context" remark

Biblical Context​

  • The Sabbath was established by God at creation (Genesis 2:2–3) and is explicitly commanded as the seventh day, Saturday, in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:8–11; Deuteronomy 5:12–15).
  • Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath and taught that the Law, including the Sabbath, remains valid (Matthew 5:17–19; Luke 4:16).
  • The apostles and early Christians continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath. The New Testament contains numerous references to Sabbath observance, with no divine instruction to shift it to Sunday (Acts 16:13, 17:2, Hebrews 4:4, 9).

Early Historical Developments​

  • In the 2nd century, Christian writers such as Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria began promoting Sunday as a commemoration of Christ’s resurrection. This was initially a supplemental practice, not a replacement of the Sabbath.
  • Anti-Jewish sentiment and cultural influences gradually encouraged some Christians to distance themselves from Saturday worship.
  1. Ecclesiastical Formalization​

    • The Council of Laodicea (~364 CE) reinforced Sunday observance and discouraged Sabbath observance among Christians:
      “Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honor the Lord’s Day.”
    • Subsequently, the Catholic Church, under Popes such as Sylvester I and with bishops like Eusebius, formalized the practice of Sunday observance as the “Lord’s Day,” transferring rest from Saturday to Sunday.
  2. Summary of Contributors​

    1. Jesus and Apostles – Maintained Saturday Sabbath; no divine instruction to change it.
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Does Open Carry Cause Problems?

Yeah I agree, there is nothing wrong with carrying a weapon it all depends on what you intend to do with it.
Agreed - open carry is not the issue.

As shown the statistics show a 50/50 split of the top ten cities where the gun violence is the worst. 5 have open carry and 5 do not.
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"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

And and your quotes of John and ACTS are b. all speaking to Israel. , like John 3:3. and 5. and John 10:27 and the BODY of CHRIST to be

called SHEEP. !!

dan p
Hey Dan

John 10:27 would be spiritual Israel. these are already OT believers and declared righteous by promise. John 3:3,5 would be speaking of the way to become part of spiritual Israel.
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The real gifts and what they really are.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. The lists given in Scripture are general. If it's from the Holy Spirit, not the flesh, it's good and thus a gift. That's the Biblical meaning of the gifts. Setting aside the sign gifts per the rules.

In short, It's the fruit of the Spirit.

John 15:1-5 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

"...for without Me you can do nothing", nothing good implied. That's where the gifts come from.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Ephesians 4:7-8, 11-12 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."....And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

All the gifts are for the edification of the Church. Any gifts used for self edification is in fact in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians, and therefore, most likely, not from the Spirit and not a gift from God.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

No need to get goofy with this stuff. Scripture is pretty clear. 1 Corinthians 12-14, Paul lays down the foundation of purpose, to edify the Body, not ourselves. Then gives us examples of the what to do (edify the Body), and then gives us examples of the what not to do (edify self). Though many teach the 'what not to do" as commands, and as good things, these are clearly examples of what not to do. Love is the great qualifier. Love is not self seeking.

Whenever in doubt, ask if what you're doing passes the simple test of love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8A Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails....

Remember, fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), good, a gift. The flesh, not good, not a gift, but sin.

Galatians 5:16-17 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

:)

I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

We either disagree or do not understand each other. The debate is to find out which it is, or to help lurkers see both sides and understand the implications for themselves.

As to your question, I will provide a simple example from a human frame of reference, as we can argue all day about God's frame of reference, but any rational person should realize that we have no idea about what goes on there, but philosophically, the implications are the same.

Let's theorize that there is somehow a scientist who is perfect, mistake-free, and somehow can understand all of the variables that go into a particular experiment like a controlled energy blast that ignites in a vacuum when he pushes a big red button. He can set up his experiment in one of two ways:

1.) He meticulously works out all the variables ahead of time so that when he pushes that button, he knows where every particle will go, how they will affect each other and everything goes as planned. Nothing new is learned or particularly interesting to the scientist as he knew what was going to happen all along.

2.) He sets up the same experiment, but in this variation, he decides to not calculate every particle but allows them to interact with each other on their own. He still sets up constraints so that they will not leave the vacuum or be in a position to destroy the experiment. Still many different things can happen, and the result is far more satisfying.

You could call it omniscience by default vs omniscience by choice.

You could relate Satan to a rogue jealous scientist who decides to alter the development of two of the particles, but I think this story would get too long and convoluted if I worked out analogies for everything in Genesis.



I really don't see the difference between the two sentences. I agree with both of them. External causation means I am not making the choice.



You are correct from a logical standpoint, but that is irrelevant. The question is whether God already knows my future choices, thereby making my choice moot. Assuming that we both agree that the world contains a lot of evil people, then it's not just a case of God allowing evil to happen. It's a case of God creating evil in its entirety, a concept that I reject.



I don't have a problem with God being at the beginning of all causation. I have a problem with a concept whose logical end result is that God is responsible for man's fall from grace, not man.



I think we have no way of knowing what reality is for God. I think that omnipotence relative to humanity tells me nothing about the environment in the spiritual world. And I think omniscience by default logically precludes God's freedom and sets up all sorts of paradoxes that cannot be resolved.

God sees A, but wants B, and so intervenes and changes the result to B, but then A never occurred, so God shouldn't have been able to see A as a future, because there was no future A.

And that was a ridiculously simplistic example.
I'll highlight this part of what you say, because it is representative of what we disagree on:

God sees A, but wants B, and so intervenes and changes the result to B, but then A never occurred, so God shouldn't have been able to see A as a future, because there was no future A.

And that was a ridiculously simplistic example

Right from the get-go you step out of fact into supposition. God does not simply "see A but want B". That misrepresents what God is doing. It represents the facet WE see, by virtue of a general knowledge we have of him and his nature, and by comparison to his stated commands. While we indeed (as you said) have no way of knowing what reality is for God, we can know some things, such as the fact that it is not how we see it.

It would be useful to do a good study on the theological and philosophical Attributes of God of Aseity, Simplicity and Immanence. Consider the notion, for example, that for God to think is to do, as opposed to the human notions of God considering this or that possibility. If what is possible is exactly all he does, and there is no other fact, then "what would be [otherwise] 'possible' is only by our lack of knowledge". As RC Sproul quoted, "Chance is only a substitute for, 'I don't know.'" ALL FACT DEPENDS ON GOD.

God sees A because he caused A. "There is no plan B." That B goes against his command has to do with what SHOULD HAVE happened. Don't confuse his command with his plan ( =the theological term, 'his decree').

Disclaimer concerning the following statements: My representation of how you see things is drawn on what I hear you saying, and admittedly may be off somewhat:

You assume that (apparently) God began "fact" 'rolling', but then left it to do as it will. Not so. He is the very "in whom we live and move and have our being". Existence itself is by God's upholding, maintaining. "FACT" is God's doing.​
You say, "God intervenes and changes the result". Not so. The result was what God saw and accomplished from the beginning. Nothing was changed. There is indeed, "should have, but didn't" [or did] but no "would have", except for our guesses concerning contingent causation and God's plain statements as to what would have happened, but didn't —neither of which represent possibility, but only as to describe what should have happened vs the results of what was chosen.​
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(ETA: Plot thickens more) NYT reports interim US Attorney Alina Habba will leave interim role (Judge rules her acting appointment illegal)

Alina Habba resigns as New Jersey US attorney after appeals court defeat

She announced her resignation as U.S. attorney in a social media post on Monday. She will remain serving as "Senior Adviser to the Attorney General for U.S. Attorneys."

The resignation comes after a protracted legal fight about whether she could serve in the U.S. attorney role without Senate confirmation.

“Following the flawed Third Circuit decision disqualifying Alina Habba from performing her duties in the U.S. Attorney's office for the District of New Jersey, I am saddened to accept Alina's resignation," Attorney General Pam Bondi said in a statement. "The Department of Justice will seek further review of this decision, and we are confident it will be reversed."

The Trump administration has faced growing headwinds over its efforts to install Trump loyalists as top prosecutors in U.S. attorneys' offices across the country, suffering a string of court defeats as judges raise concerns they're actively disregarding the law.
Halligan is still hanging on for dear life.
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The End Time Puzzle

Will the saints be glorified, rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests ? What kind of body will the saints have in the resurrection ? After being glorified will the saints still be able to sin ? Will the total number of these saints be millions, thousands or billions or just a few. I have wondered about these things.
NO human has been 'glorified' yet. That is: made into a Spiritual, Eternal being.
This does not and cannot happen before the Great White Throne Judgment; Rev 20:11-15

Pauls Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, refers to those whose names will be found in the Book of Life. Only after the Millennium, will Death be no more; Rev 21:4
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A Pilgrimage Home? England’s Surprising Turn Toward Catholicism

I suspect this happy news is the result of the Church of England alienating its devout Anglo-Catholic members with liberal policies, implemented due to pressure from the state. The Orthodox Church has seen a similar influx in the UK; in the Antiochian Orthodox church in the UK they’re so numerous as to be called “Angliochians.”
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Raking In Hundreds Of Millions For Trafficking Kids Destroys U.S. Catholic Bishops’ Credibility On Immigration

Earlier this week, Anna Gallagher, executive director of the Catholic Legal Immigration Network Inc. (CLINIC) crooned: “As we enter the Advent season, we remember that the Holy Family themselves were migrants seeking safety.” It is a recurring motif to validate the resistance of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) to curtailment of illegal immigration.

In November, the USCCB prepared for Advent by declaring war on the Trump administration with a “Special Pastoral Message on Immigration.” The insurrectionist tenor of this rare “special message” places the globalist conceits — and monetary interests — of the hierarchy ahead of the just laws of their own country.

Continued below.

The Lonely Joys of Christmas Cards Americans are losing the habit of putting pen to card and stamp to envelope.

In the spirit of the old philosophical quandary about whether a tree felled in a forest makes a sound if there is no one on hand to hear it, I present the following question for your consideration: If a Christmas card is sent but neither acknowledged nor replied to in kind, can it still be considered received?

Over the years, I have had ample opportunities to consider this conundrum. Following the example of my parents, who were enthusiastic Christmas card senders, I first began sending my own Christmas cards when I was a teenager. While the sending of Christmas cards is surely its own reward, I readily acknowledge that few do so in absence of the hope of receiving Christmas cards back. So, ceding to the unhappy reality that few of my peers were likely practiced in the art of placing a stamp on an envelope, my Christmas card lists skewed older: I tended to send cards to relatives (grandparents, aunts, uncles) and friends of my parents.

For a long time, my calculated approach proved largely successful: Each season, I might send eight to ten cards, and I might receive five to seven cards back — something like that. This represented a reasonable return on my investment, which amounted to little more than a box of cards, a sheet of stamps, and a few hours of putting to use one of my few obvious skills (a gift for lettering acquired during my youthful days as an aspiring cartoonist).

Continued below.

what is Calvinism answer to how God works?

Brother Del said:
Better yet, what does it matter what Calvin thinks about good works, and why spend anytime debating it?

Are we really that uninterested in the "weightier matters"?

Yes,...... a lot of people are more worried about theology than a relationship with Jesus.

Some folks are not able to move on to those "weightier matters" in their walk with Jesus simply because they like to argue. They get caught up in man's teachings and think they need to defend the faith at every juncture.

There is no such thing as a ministry of an apologist in scripture, but you look around youtube and how many so-called Christians live to have debates with folks on there,...... they must think there is.
It's true that it doesn't matter what Calvin thinks, anymore than what you or I think. But don't make the mistake of thinking that this question is not among the weightier matters. Understanding this is easily within the question of who God is and what we are, which has everything to do with knowing God.

We throw too simplistic a definition to terms like, "good works" —specially in the context of predestination and supposed 'freewill'. Can you not see where this applies to justice, mercy and faithfulness? (Matthew 23:23) Why would any of us suppose that we know God well enough to not pursue Biblical doctrine concerning predestination and God's dealings with the will of corrupted creatures? Doesn't matter???
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Date of authorship of Revelation

I agree; the great city, the harlot, is Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8
and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

Luke 13:22-24
He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.


Few people will be approved to inherit eternal life. Many people will not.
Jeremiah 3:3 KJV A harlots forehead, Revelation 17:5 I am thinking that the worlds churches will be led by the man of sin into Judaizing, basically denying Christ. They already see Israel as GODS only chosen people and some go as far as using things out of the law to increase church revenue, tithes and offerings. With this mindset already in place it would not be difficult for the false prophet to deceive them by calling fire down from heaven to burn the sacrifices at the temple.
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2025: 7,000+ Christians Killed in Nigeria by Muslims

In 2025 alone, more than 7,000 Christians were killed in Nigeria, underscoring the intense persecution experienced by Christian communities in the country.

Overview of Persecution

Nigeria has become one of the most perilous places for Christians, with violence largely fueled by Islamist militant groups like Boko Haram and Fulani herdsmen. Over the past 14 years, more than 52,250 Christians have been killed due to religious violence, and the situation has only deteriorated in recent years. In 2025, it was reported that 7,087 Christians lost their lives between January and August, averaging approximately 35 killings per day.
Notable Incidents and Statistics
  1. Deborah Samuel. One of the most prominent cases of martyrdom is that of Deborah Samuel, a 19-year-old student who was killed by a mob for her Christian faith in 2022. Her story has become a symbol of the extreme violence faced by Christians in Nigeria.
Continued below.

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