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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Charlie Kirk Didn’t Shy Away From Who He Was. We Shouldn’t, Either

Let's take a look...

Scholars release official ranking of US presidents. See where Biden and Trump fall
The ranking resulted from the 2024 Presidential Greatness Project Expert Survey, which questioned 154 members of the American Political Science Association who specialize in presidential politics.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article285691301.html#storylink=cpy

Fox News weighs in:

New presidential rankings place Obama in top 10, Reagan and Trump below Biden

Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush and Trump were more likely to be ranked higher by conservatives or Republicans, with Reagan being ranked an average of 5th by Republicans respondents, Bush 19th and Trump 41st.
...
A similar partisan divide was noticeable for Barack Obama and President Biden, who ranked an average of 6th and 13th, respectively, among Democrat respondents, and 15th and 30th by Republicans.


Even republican historians put Biden well above Trump.
He couldn't even get a second term, he was forced out of running because it became obvious he couldn't beat Trump.
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Now does everyone understand why the "right to refuse illegal orders" video was made?

Related to this subject, I've been looking at some cases of German officers during WWII who refused to execute civilians and prisoners of war when ordered. There are about 100 documented instances. Interestingly, most of these documented cases showed unexpected leniency from the German military, even though most of them went all the way to Himmler himself. Some resulted barely an administrative slap on the hand.

One interesting case is that of Nikolaus Ernst Franz Hornig, a German officer of the police force during WWII who rejected criminal orders, and what happened to him during and after the war.

Hornig was born on 11 December 1907. He studied law, then entered the Prussian police around 1930 as an officer candidate. By the time of WWII, he held at least the rank of lieutenant and served in a police-battalion. In 1941, his unit was ordered to carry out mass executions of 780 Soviet prisoners of war.

Hornig refused to obey the order. He argued that executing defenseless prisoners was an illegal and criminal order under German military law, citing the relevant military code, “Paragraph 47” which allowed refusal of illegal orders.

He went so far as to training his subordinates in the law, teaching them they had the right, indeed the duty, to disobey unlawful orders. As a result of his refusal, he was charged with “Wehrkraftzersetzung” (undermining the fighting‑spirit or readiness) and “incitement” through example and speech. I think the current US administration would call it "sedition."

In late 1942, he was sentenced to several years in prison; subsequently he was moved to the concentration camp Buchenwald, where he remained until the end of WWII. His imprisonment was at a higher level of comfort than that of the other prisoners, however.

He survived the war, and after liberation by Allied force, Hornig was detained by the Americans as a “witness/prisoner” rather than punished as a criminal, due to his documented refusal of illegal orders and non-participation in war crimes. His case shows that even inside a genocidal regime there were individuals who refused to commit atrocities, and invoked pre-existing legal–moral codes against unlawful orders. That contradicts the commonly heard excuse that “they had no choice but to follow orders.”

Unfortunately, Hornig wasn't treated so well by the West German government after the war. After the war, bureaucratic and political dynamics in West Germany meant many former resisters were not promoted. Hornig apparently experienced such marginalization. He tried to re-enter police work and saw ex-Nazis who had actually served post-war prison sentences getting better treatment in West German civil service than he got. I suspect that his role as a "witness/prisoner" still made him look like a traitor to Germany (even though Nazi Germany) in their eyes.
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Do the Ten Commandments apply to Christians today?

Considering Paul has a salvation warning 2Peter3:16 , I would caution anyone who is using Paul against the very Testimony of Jesus Himself Who said the Sabbath would not end at the Cross Mat24:20 or ever Isa66:22-23

There is more than one Sabbath in Scripture, one came before sin one after sin that had to do with food and drink and offerings the context of this passage. I have completed a Bible study on this that spells out the context hopefully some will take the time to prayerfully study before carelessly disregarding one of God’s own personally written and spoken commandments and His own Testimony Exo31:18 Isa8:20

First, we can't isolate Col 2:16 without looking at the immediate context if we truly want to understand what Paul is speaking about.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
This verse sets up the following verses and gives us a lot more context.
Paul is giving us the context as to what he is speaking about
  1. handwritten
  2. against and contrary to us
1. Was the Sabbath commandment "handwritten" ?

Lets look at what the Bible says
Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

The had is what man uses to write with, on scrolls with ink. The finger is not the hand and no man could possible write with their finger on Stone, only God could do so, by design so man should not not to mess God’s commandments, not a jot or tittle because man is not God.


2. Is the Sabbath commandment against and contrary to us

Lets look at what Jesus said:
Mat 2:28 The Sabbath was made for man
The Sabbath was made for man, what God makes for man is not against us. The Sabbath is blessed and sanctified by God, its not the definition of contrary and against

Context doesn't fit

So looking at the immediate context shows clearly Paul is not speaking of the Sabbath commandment. Nor does Paul have the authority to change God's written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 the words of the covenant Exo 34:28 that God promised He would not alter Psa 89:34 they went from written on tables of stone to written on tablets of the heart 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 because God keeps His promises.

Right here is enough to know Paul is not referring to the Sabbath commandment, but lets keep going.

This is what Paul is quoting the law he is referring to is from

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

2 Cor33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.” (Handwriting of ordiances the context)

The laws that were beside the ark of the Covenant handwritten by Moses, there as a witness against, the context of Col 2:14


But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and theburnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

Why if you look at the next verse it clearly shows what it is referring to which works in perfect harmony with the context

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Exo 12:17 43 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

I know this is a popular teaching, but the context does not fit the Sabbath commandment written by the finger of God that is part of God's holy and eternal law Mat 5:18-19 Isa 66:23
AND Antone reating Heb 9:18 has to ADM,IT what Paul who wrote HEB. 9:18 IS TRUE ad many I see reject it EVEN

WHEN reading Hb. 9:18. !!

Therefore. , not even the FIRST COVENANT was dedicated. WIOTHOUT. BLOOD ( CHECK. EXO 24 ;3-8. IS . ONLY

the b. BLOOD OF ANIMAL and that iOS n. why JESAUS died off a CROSS. and only the BLOOD OF CHRIST CAN

SAVED US ALL FROM SIN. !!

dan p
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what is Calvinism answer to how God works?

No Sir, you are not understanding. You make it seem that only a part of man is broken or missing. The whole man is fallen, everything from head to toe is affected and infected by Sin. All of His faculties are tainted with sin. But again by what you wrote, gives a very lofty view of man. And if you disagree that fallen man is Totally Depraved, then you must also believe that fallen man intrinsically good. This Sir, is Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism which by the way has been condemned by more Churches throughout history.​
Not at all, and there is no such thing as "semi-pelagianism". The imago dei survived the fall, marred though it may be. The calvinist doctrine of total depravity is nothing but a misanthropic view of man that errs in the opposite direction to Pelagianism, with the truth lying in the middle.
Why not? Just curious.
Because I don't agree with Aquinas regarding some supernatural sense existing before the fall. I take the Orthodox view that what man lost is not a part of himself, but access to the continual sustenance of God.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard this. Classical Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace have been taught by the ECF's. It was Calvin who formulated and organized them.
Which ECFs? Only one who came close, to my knowledge, is tertullian and he's not exactly orthodox for a number of reasons.
No Sir, curse of Sin is death & punishment, and eternal exile from God!
Death, so mortality.
Well friend I suggest you do some research because Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism teach what you are saying here.
Semi-pelagianism is not a thing, except among Calvinists who try to smear John Cassian by associating him with a monastic group in france that was anathematized for their beliefs about baptism. I'm well aware of the smears that Calvinists have attempted, and their lack of historical veracity.
Oh, are you really saying that the incarnate God coming down into time and history is a false dilemma?​
No, the false dilemma Calvinists present between Pelagianism and Calvinism.
Do you see the tough question you just walked into? I didn't when I was studying to destroy Calvinism when I was an Arminian. This question got me to think more deeply of the human plight and God
What question is that, exactly?
.

So, if all who hear the Gospel and fully understand it and know exactly the outcome of which way they decision to choose. Why would anyone choose to reject God and burn? Furthermore, what's happens to those who know everything about their fate and reject the good news of the Gospel, are they zapped like in MIB and have their memory erased. Why do some believe while others do not?​
That's a question for those who reject God. Those who refuse to surrender love their sin beyond the point that God will tolerate, but that doesn't negate the genuine nature of the offer in the way that Calvinist doctrines render the gospel message void for those who happen to not be among the elect.
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Charlie Kirk Didn’t Shy Away From Who He Was. We Shouldn’t, Either

Good for Biden, look where it got him
Let's take a look...

Scholars release official ranking of US presidents. See where Biden and Trump fall
The ranking resulted from the 2024 Presidential Greatness Project Expert Survey, which questioned 154 members of the American Political Science Association who specialize in presidential politics.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article285691301.html#storylink=cpy

Fox News weighs in:

New presidential rankings place Obama in top 10, Reagan and Trump below Biden

Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush and Trump were more likely to be ranked higher by conservatives or Republicans, with Reagan being ranked an average of 5th by Republicans respondents, Bush 19th and Trump 41st.
...
A similar partisan divide was noticeable for Barack Obama and President Biden, who ranked an average of 6th and 13th, respectively, among Democrat respondents, and 15th and 30th by Republicans.


Even republican historians put Biden well above Trump.
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OU Student given a zero for citing the bible in essay

Hyphens don't count.
What about em-dashes? ;)

With regard to this whole thing though I would give some criticism to the TA that graded it. I don't think it was appropriate for them to have written "graded by an LGBTQ+ person" or whatever it actually said with trans flag colors for highlighting. Even if they were highly offended by what she said, and they should have been, we all should have been IMO, I think "rubbing it in" like that just wasn't appropriate.
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Some titles of Jesus in the NT

Chat GPT is awesome

JESUS THE NAZARENE / OF NAZARETH

Matthew 2:23 — “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
Matthew 21:11 — “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.”
Matthew 26:71 — “This man was with Jesus the Nazarene.”
Mark 1:24 — “I know who you are—Jesus the Nazarene!”
Mark 10:47 — “Jesus the Nazarene, have mercy on me!”
Mark 14:67 — “You also were with Jesus the Nazarene.”
Mark 16:6 — “You seek Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified.”
Luke 4:16 — “He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up.”
Luke 18:37 — “Jesus of Nazareth is passing by.”
John 1:45 — “Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
John 18:5 — “Jesus the Nazarene.”
John 18:7 — “Jesus the Nazarene.”
John 19:19 — “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.”
Acts 2:22 — “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God…”
Acts 3:6 — “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk!”
Acts 4:10 — “…Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified…”
Acts 6:14 — “…Jesus the Nazarene will destroy this place…”
Acts 10:38 — “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit…”
Acts 22:8 — “I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.”
Acts 24:5 — “A ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.”


PROPHETIC BACKGROUND OF “NAZARENE” (BRANCH)

Isaiah 11:1 — “A shoot (netser) will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.”
Isaiah 53:2 — “He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground.”
Zechariah 3:8 — “I am going to bring My servant, the Branch.”
Zechariah 6:12 — “Here is the man whose name is the Branch: he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.”


JESUS AS A JEW / KING OF THE JEWS

John 4:9 — “How is it that You, a Jew, ask a drink from me?”
John 4:22 — “We Jews worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.”
John 18:35 — “Your own nation delivered You to me.”
John 19:19 — “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.”
John 19:21 — “He said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’”
Matthew 2:2 — “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?”
Matthew 27:11 — “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Matthew 27:37 — “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.”
Mark 15:2 — “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Mark 15:9 — “Do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”
Mark 15:12 — “What shall I do with the one you call King of the Jews?”
Mark 15:18 — “Hail, King of the Jews!”
Mark 15:26 — “The King of the Jews.”
Luke 23:3 — “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Luke 23:37 — “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”
Luke 23:38 — “This is the King of the Jews.”
John 19:3 — “Hail, King of the Jews!”
John 19:14 — “Here is your King.”


JESUS THE GALILEAN

Matthew 26:69 — “You were with Jesus the Galilean.”
Luke 23:5 — “He stirs up the people, teaching throughout all Galilee.”
John 7:41 — “Will the Christ come from Galilee?”


JESUS THE SON OF DAVID

Matthew 1:1 — “Jesus Christ, the Son of David.”
Matthew 9:27 — “Have mercy on us, Son of David.”
Matthew 12:23 — “Is this not the Son of David?”
Matthew 15:22 — “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David.”
Matthew 20:30 — “Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David.”
Matthew 21:9 — “Hosanna to the Son of David!”
Romans 1:3 — “Born of the seed of David according to the flesh.”
Revelation 22:16 — “I am the root and the offspring of David.”


JESUS THE SON OF MAN

Matthew 8:20 — “The Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”
Matthew 12:8 — “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Matthew 16:27 — “The Son of Man will come in His glory.”
Matthew 20:28 — “The Son of Man came to give His life.”
Matthew 26:64 — “You will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.”
Mark 2:10 — “The Son of Man has authority.”
Mark 14:62 — “You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power.”
Luke 19:10 — “The Son of Man came to seek and save the lost.”

(There are over 80 Son of Man references, but these are the core representative ones; I can list them all on request.)


JESUS THE SON OF GOD

Matthew 3:17 — “This is My beloved Son.”
Matthew 14:33 — “Truly You are the Son of God.”
Matthew 16:16 — “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 1:34 — “This is the Son of God.”
John 20:31 — “That you may believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.”
Romans 1:4 — “Declared to be the Son of God with power.”
1 John 4:15 — “Jesus is the Son of God.”


JESUS THE CHRIST / MESSIAH

Matthew 16:16 — “You are the Christ.”
Matthew 1:17 — “Jesus who is called Christ.”
John 1:41 — “We have found the Messiah.”
John 4:25–26 — “I who speak to you am He.”
Acts 2:36 — “God has made this Jesus both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 9:22 — “Proving that Jesus is the Christ.”
1 John 2:22 — “He who denies that Jesus is the Christ.”


JESUS THE LORD

Luke 2:11 — “A Savior, Christ the Lord.”
Acts 10:36 — “Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all.”
Romans 10:9 — “Confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord.”
1 Cor 8:6 — “One Lord, Jesus Christ.”
Phil 2:11 — “Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”


JESUS THE RABBI / TEACHER

John 1:38 — “Rabbi (which means Teacher).”
John 3:2 — “Rabbi, we know You are a teacher sent from God.”
Matthew 23:8 — “You have one Teacher, the Christ.”


JESUS THE HOLY ONE

Mark 1:24 — “You are the Holy One of God.”
John 6:69 — “You are the Holy One of God.”


JESUS THE PROPHET

Matthew 21:11 — “Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth.”
Luke 24:19 — “Jesus of Nazareth, a prophet mighty in deed.”
John 7:40 — “Surely this is the Prophet.”


JESUS THE SAVIOR

Luke 2:11 — “A Savior is born.”
John 4:42 — “This is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Acts 5:31 — “God exalted Him as Savior.”
Acts 13:23 — “God brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus.”


JESUS THE LAMB OF GOD

John 1:29 — “Behold the Lamb of God.”
John 1:36 — “Behold the Lamb of God.”
1 Peter 1:19 — “The precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish.”
Revelation 5:6 — “A Lamb standing as if slain.”
Revelation 14:1 — “The Lamb.”
Revelation 21:23 — “The Lamb is its lamp.”


JESUS AS SON OF JOSEPH

Luke 3:23 — “Being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph.”
John 1:45 — “Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
Luke 4:22 — “Is this not Joseph’s son?”


JESUS AS SON OF ABRAHAM

Matthew 1:1 — “Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham.”


JESUS AS SON OF ADAM


Luke 3:38 — Genealogy ends: “Adam, the son of God.” (Jesus’ lineage goes to Adam.)

Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

what about the fleeing suspects that get shot?
If they are armed and are a danger to another person, like if they just shot someone and are running away while armed, the police may be justified in using deadly force
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B flat B♭

lol you guys make a mountain out of a molehill. A mistake is just that a mistake. How about the other 842 pounds of rock brought back from the moon?

The correct spelling is astronauts.
How do you make a mistake like that give me a break.

Obviously none of the other 842 pounds are trustworthy.
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Dear Pete Hegseth, I’m Grateful the Japanese Navy Spared My Grandfather’s Life

In WWII my grandfather served in the Royal Navy when his ship was sunk in the English channel. There he bobbed around for a day more or less. I dont know if the Germans were in a position to come back around to kill the shipwrecked. But at least for my sake its a good thing they didnt.

I look at this current incident and get the sense theres a line thats been crossed, and we're now on the side of barbarism if we go on this way. And I get that heat-of-battle and fog-of-war can confound morality such that we should generally be slow to judge. But neither of those really seem to apply here.
There was only one instance of a U-boat killing shipwreck survivors in the entire war - the captain was eventually caught, tried, convicted, tied to a post and shot for war crimes
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Immigration Agents Have Rescued More Than 60,000 Children From Human Smugglers

AI GENERATED

The claim that the Trump Administration rescued 60,000 children from human smugglers is highly misleading and based on a misunderstanding of government metrics. This figure represents the total number of unaccompanied migrant children who were successfully located and accounted for during a multi-agency welfare initiative. This initiative tracked down children who had been released to sponsors during a period of lax vetting and were vulnerable to exploitation. This is not comparable to the annual numbers of confirmed victims rescued from traditional trafficking rings by law enforcement, which are significantly smaller, closer to 2000 per year.
Thank you that’s exactly what I got to. And that 2000 victims was all victims found by all law enforcement agencies which is well over 600,000 officers while ICE has about 7000.
  • Agree
Reactions: Richard T
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Dear Pete Hegseth, I’m Grateful the Japanese Navy Spared My Grandfather’s Life

It's not about blowing up drug dealers. It's about legality. No one is defending the arrest of drug dealers. But your defense of the pardon of one by Trump speaks volumes.
Who said I was defending Trump for pardons?
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Immigration Agents Have Rescued More Than 60,000 Children From Human Smugglers

This is hardly a story that the major media is going to put on their front pages. I posted a story back in August on the numbers, it was 28,000 rescued at that time.

Let me reiterate that every time ICE is interfered with it slows down the overall effort, and some children that would have been rescued may end up dead instead.
Oh it’s definitely something that ICE and Trump would be parading around on their public statements. All law enforcement agencies combined only come across an average of 10,000 human trafficking cases per year and that’s adults and children. Of those 10,000 about 2000 of them are minors. There’s over 600,000 police officers alone in the US and they can’t find 60,000 in a year and yet we’re supposed to believe that ICE with its 7,000 officers is somehow able to find 30 times more than all law enforcement agencies in America combined? It’s not even plausible. It’s ridiculous.
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