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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

We've Come to Worship Him

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah,
Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah;
For out of you shall come forth a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.’”
Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.” (Matthew 2:1-8 NASB1995)

We live in a day and age today when many profess faith in Jesus Christ with their lips, but their hearts are far from him, and when many who profess Jesus as Lord of their lives are “wolves in sheep’s clothing” out to destroy the sheep of our Lord’s pasture. Many who stand before the congregations of the people are charlatans (impostors, pretenders, con artists, and swindlers) whose goal is not to lead people to genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but to lead them away from Christ while pretending to lead them to salvation from sin.

They, like Herod, are not really interested in getting to know Jesus Christ so that they can worship him, but so that they can trick and deceive the people into believing that they can have salvation from sin and eternal life with God in heaven without them having to die to sin and to walk in obedience to our Lord’s New Covenant commands. And they are very good at smooth talking and charming the people and saying what sounds good to itching ears. And so many people are, thus, following their lies all the way straight to hell.

For they lead them on an empty path to nowhere which is not connected to the vine, Jesus Christ. It is not connected to the power source, and so those who travel this path end up returning to the same habitual sinful patterns as they had before they professed faith in Jesus Christ. So they just keep recycling the same behaviors over again because the path they are on is the broad road which leads to destruction, and not the narrow path which leads to eternal life. For the narrow way requires death to sin and obeying God.

The magi, nonetheless, were sincere in their search for Jesus Christ, and in their desire to worship him, in truth. So they sought after him in full sincerity of heart and mind, eager to find him that they might worship him. And they did find him in a house with his mother Mary, and it is presumed that he was about two years old by this time. And they brought him gifts. But, having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way which led them home (vv 9-12).

And God is presently warning many people not to return to the “Herods” of this world who, in truth, are out to destroy Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation (the gospel) but while pretending to want to worship Christ. So he is sending out warnings through the teachings of the Scriptures to let the people know that many of them are being lied to and deceived into believing that their sins no longer matter to God and so they can keep on in their habitual sins while still claiming heaven as their eternal destiny.

But Jesus Christ taught that to come to him we must deny self, take up our cross daily (die daily to sin), and follow (obey) him. For if we hold on to living in sin and for self, we will lose our lives for eternity. But if we deny self, die daily to sin, by the Spirit, and we walk in obedience to our Lord and to his commands, in his power, then we have eternal life with God. For not everyone who calls him “Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one DOING (obeying) the will of God (see Luke 9:23-26; Matthew 7:21-23).

So, know the truth of the gospel, and don’t return to the “Herods,” i.e. to the charlatans of this world who are out to destroy Jesus Christ and his gospel message. They may appear sincere in their desire to worship Christ, but looks can be deceiving. Seek Jesus out for yourselves, and let his Word teach you the truth of the Scriptures. But read the Scriptures in their correct biblical context. And don’t rely on other humans to tell you the truth, for liars are all over the place. And seek the Lord in truth, and he’ll be found.

[Matthew 7:13-14,21-23; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-30; Acts 26:18; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-10; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-22; Galatians 5:16-24; Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-6; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 3:1-19; Hebrews 4:1-13; Hebrews 10:19-39; Hebrews 12:1-2; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 1:1-10; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 2:1-29; Revelation 3:1-22]

Mary, Did You Know?

Songwriters: Greene Lee Rufus / Lowry Mark Alan

Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would one day walk on water?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would save our sons and daughters?
Did you know that your baby boy
Has come to make you new?
This child that you delivered, will soon deliver you

Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Is Lord of all creation?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would one day rule the nations?
Did you know that your baby boy
Is heaven's perfect Lamb?
That sleeping child you're
Holding is the great, I Am

Mary, did you know?

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We’ve Come to Worship Him
An Original Work / December 13, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Why Is It So Hard for Christians to Talk About Justice and Greed?

Ironically, if the rich were to spread their wealth among all the poor, they would have it back again in no time. Even the poor (unless in spirit) have no concept of how to beat the system.

It's simple really, it's how far you are willing to devaluate the value of others (what you're buying) in order to sell at a profit.

Buying properties as cheap as possible, exploiting other's misery or miserable conditions.

And how far you're willing to perform for people who do these things.

I'm not criticizing Christians who do these things. We live in a crooked world are forced to do crooked things in order to have food at the table. Just don't add insult to injury by treating deviousness and greed as badge of honor to show everyone and encourage others to do the same.

Given we all work for the crooked system, we are just like the tax collector in the Bible and they don't take pride in what they do. At least the tax collectors weren't like the Pharisees who pride in their corrupt religious order.
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B flat B♭

Oh whatever, twist stuff all around as per. :rolleyes:
I was quoting your own words and my actual posts/replies!

STOP blaming me for something that you have misunderstood/phrased badly, adding the words "as per", implying that my posts and actions here are deliberately designed to wind you up, and then adding a contemptuous eye rolling emoji.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Thurs Thoughts 12/18/2025:
Like God made us and how we
Were on this earth to treat others with
Kindness, respect, and understanding for
Others whether they deserve it or not and
Using God's love and kindness to others
Doing the hard but right thing in the end.
Our bodies are indeed are temples and using them for
His glory and benefit to spread His word.
Kindness costs indeed nothing but sadly the
World never at all could understand that as
It is easy but sadly the world doesn't understand.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Wed Thoughts 12/17/2025:
God is wanting us to remember
How that when we place Him first and
Foremost in our lives we focus on
Him and how that He knows our lives on the
Earth is only temporary while our eternal
Lives are focused in heaven and eternity
Not here as we show kindness and in
Understanding over for others and to treat
Others the way God would want us to treat ourselves.
Showing respect and kindness even for those that the earth says
Don't deserve it but God is contrary to that.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Tues Thoughts 12/16/2025:
As we live on this earth
Need in such a very gentle
Reminder why were are here and
Making a difference and how we
Are here not on our own merit but
God as God should always have the
Credit and glory that belongs to
Him alone as it is only Him alone.
Is the reason why we are here.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Mon Thoughts 12/15/2025:
You see our lives are God's
Not our own and that He
Gives us the lives that we
Really need to use and to
Not waste our lives as God
Doesn't want us to waste the
Lives that we were given by
Him as we were in God's mind before
We were conceived in our mothers wombs.
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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

"If the wicked are burned to nothing, then the language of ongoing torment makes no sense. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes conscious, eternal punishment: (1Tonne)

There is nothing in mark 9:48 that mentions 'ongoing torment'.
You are reading 'ongoing torment' into Mark 9:48, as well as other verses.

Mark 9:48, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.” (1Tonne)

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24...

Isaiah 66:24 "Then they will go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die. And their fire will not be extinguished; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind”
"Here, the “worm” is the person themselves, reduced to utter shame and contempt" (1Tonne)

The people are eating the people in Isaiah? And so Jesus is using a metaphor within a metaphor?

This parallels Psalm 22:6, where the psalmist says, “I am a worm and not a man,” meaning he is utterly scorned. The text shows that the person exists in a state of ongoing ruin, they are the worm. (1Tonne)

The parallel is Isaiah 66, the people walk by and see dead corpses 'and' worms. Not corpses eating corpses.
The worms and corpses speak of destruction, as any observer would note, it's an obvious and historical REALITY of DEATH.
If God wanted to use a metaphor, or such, to denote 'continual conscious torment' God would have not have used something so indicative of 'sure absolute destruction - like fire and worms. Its like saying 'they will be eternally hungry like men sitting eating at a table' (!?)
God is the Eternal Fire, fire speaks of His Judgements which are eternal, there are no immortal worms...
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

Remember you and I were not
Brought on this earth for our
Own merit but by the Lord Jesus
Conceiving us before we go into our
Mother's wombs and that we are
On this earth only temporary but
Even though we are on this earth briefly
And temporary as our hearts, minds, and souls
Should be in eternity and with God.
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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

If people alive on earth were actually 'dead' in their 'conscious spiritual state' then they wouldn't be 'alive'.

Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus'

The Eternal Tormentist believes Death means a persons spirit is dead even while they are alive, and they also believe spirits will be made alive again so they can endure eternal torment!

It doesnt make sense that sinners 'actually' have a dead spirit, but can be alive and talk, and sin. And then if they dont repent they are made alive again so they can suffer eternally.

And so how does a believer repent and die with Christ if they were already dead?
Romans 6:8 'Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him'
The unbeliever, according to tradition was born dead, or died at some point, so how can it be said the person died with Christ?
Wouldn't that make them a believer, or what? It is a false idea that Adam and Eve died 'spiritually' because it does not say that in scripture, they were under the judgement of death and they did actually die. And they too will face the second death if they aren't born again, like everyone else must be. The Second death is the Second death, not the third, and it is death - a Conditionalist believes death means death - not death means alive.

The Conditionalist believes a real 'death' will actually happen, both of the spirit and the body, after their punishment, and according to their sins. Everybody will actually die physically and spiritually.
Death is not a metaphor for being alive - that is ridiculous. Death is a judgment - so consider yourselves dead to sin, and the unbeliever dead in their sins - it is the same as the dead man walking - we were all condemned to die, facing death of body and soul.

The NT eternal (Aionions, Olam) references are from the OT, Isaiah quotes and such, and the smoke of Edom eventually went out, they are no more... where the scriptures predominately speak of total destruction, blotting out, as water goes into ground, over and over God says He will wipe them away. And fire means fire, it destroys everything, historically everyone knows that, otherwise he could have used some other metaphor. It does not say humans survive the lake of Fire, only the Angels there, bcse man is not immortal.
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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Matthew 25:46Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 is Jesus quoting Daniel 12:2...

Daniel 12:2
“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book will be delivered. 2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.…'

Olam in Daniel 12:2 has everlasting referring to contempt - the word in Hebrew is Deraon: Contempt, reproach, abhorrence.
Deraon
is only used one other place in the Hebrew, Isaiah 66:24 an abhorrence, or horror as in Isaiah 66:24

Isaiah 66:24
"... their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.”

Everlasting Contempt, reproach, abhorrence, horror - these words do not mean torture or consciousness.
Yes, the punishment is for eternity, it is final. The wages of sin is death. Death is eternal, it is final, and it is a punishment.
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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

No, that's nonsense and wishful thinking. I can give you a truckload of verses showing that those in the lake of fire are all tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I don't want to hurt your feelings by citing those awful verses, but I'm happy to do so if that's what you want.
Heres your verses, a ton....
The Lake of Fire is called the second death, but Scripture consistently shows that death is conscious ruin and separation from God (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6), not extinction. If people simply ceased to exist, Christ’s warnings about weeping, gnashing of teeth, and fear of the One who can destroy both body and soul would be meaningless" (1Tonne)

Revelation 14:10-11 'he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. / And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

It only mentions that they have no rest day or night, during their punishment, it does not say they are punished 'forever'. The SMOKE of the torment rises forever, it does not say the sinners are tortured forever.

Revelation 20:10 'And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'

Rev 20 speaks of the devil, the beast and the false prophet - 'they will be tormented forever and ever, it does not say humans will be tormented forever, they likely are burned up because they are not immortal, only the angels, beast and the false prophet seem to be immortal or Indestructible.

Revelation 14:10-11 'he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. / And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Again, the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, it does not say the human sinners are tortured forever, even if the devil beast and the false prophet are.
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Multi's Thoughts and More

I figured out what will happen in the rest of chapter 13, so I should be able to get it done soon! Also, I have an idea for at least one upcoming chapter (probably either 14 or 15) that will be cute and sweet. :) I just have to decide if there's anything else that should happen first.

I finished animating the parts where everyone goes outside and Taranza gets tangled in Christmas lights. Now I have one more frame to make of Kirby sledding, and then I'll just have to do the parts where Magolor, Taranza, and Susie build snow sculptures and Kirby accidentally throws snow all over Magolor. :laughing: After that, the characters will be done and I'll just have to make the backgrounds and put everything together! I'm excited to be getting close to finishing this animation!
That's great!:clap: Maybe you'll finish your animation by Christmas!:christmastree:
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Not a lot of respect for men

Thank you very much for your response and I thank you for your questions which are thought provoking and valid!

Regarding Paul, I don't take his instructions to be instructions in the way that you do, so we will differ about how much weight to apply scripture from his words, then to now, and the implications of either adhering to them or disregarding them.

My comment regarding not caring what scripture says should have really been along the lines of, "I don't care what scripture says in the way others interpret it," because there are many interpretations and many sources state that they are not sure what the true meaning of Paul's words are, given various theories, and then settled on 'most likely'. Please refer to my GotQuestions link above for confirmation of just one source that admits the indeterminate meaning around Paul's statement.
Thanks, I've read most if not all of the common arguments made in the Egalitarian/Complimentarian/Patriarchy debate - rarely do I encounter something new. And the infamous but decisive 'source' word topic hasn't even been discussed in-depth in this thread yet. But just because I've studied and weighed those 'modern' arguments with some confidence I can say these don't convince me - not because I'm simply clutching to tradition or don't like change, but because the classical Patriarchal view overall fits the big picture much better and make Torah, Yeshua, Paul and Peter and the history of the Church in those two thousands years align well ...

The very fact that only secular instigated feminism triggered the re-interpretation and development of alternative theories to 'explain away' Paul's and Peter's statements as time or culturally localised instructions makes it suspicious .. because the motive is not to get a more honest/better understanding of scripture, but to align our Bible interpretation with the pressures and wishes of modern secular society.
Given the above, 'most likely' can mean a lot of things including what we'd 'most likely' hope he meant, given how we have been taught, our family backgrounds, the society we currently live in, the society we wish we'd live in etc. So, I do appreciate there will be bias from all sides when trying to ascertain 'most likely'.

I am not alone in the view that Paul's comments/instructions were time/place specific (please refer to the majority on this post who agree that Paul was speaking in context specific to a time and place and not intended to generalize across millennia). But, I appreciate that could mean that many of us are wrong so welcome viewpoints on this, if you don't mind.
Absolutely - I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about many things; I just don't know which ones - prayerfully I read and contemplate. I avoid turning it into a battle field, what still easily happens as it is such an emotionally charged subject.
The apostles who knew Jesus, personally, I would not view in the same way. I don't actually disregard Paul's teachings, in their entirety, but he did not know Jesus, personally, so there is much more room for questioning what he says vs apostles who were taught by Jesus, directly. I would say that would be true, even for me, as I never met Jesus, personally, so we have interpretations on what He said/meant based on written text rather than direct word of mouth from the time He was on earth. I do my best in prayer, adhering to the bible insomuch as I understand it and the guidance of others but I would not compare this to direct instruction as the apostles received.

Further to this, Jesus was never vague or unclear in His instructions. Why is it that the apostles, and Paul in particular, cause so much confusion? If we removed Paul from the NT, and only went by what Jesus said directly, our instructions for life on earth and salvation would be much clearer and the bible would be much shorter.
Without Paul we would struggle to properly understand many aspects of Christianity; e.g. without Paul's letters we would not really know why Yeshua had to die on the cross (as that is not really addressed in the Gospels theologically). Paul's and Peter's instructions on the role of women in marriage and churches are not vague at all - they're quite clear, and that's precisely the reason why these instructions were not controversial or heavily debated in Christian history (until the 1960's) .. everyone knew with some confidence what it meant. It's just that since the 1960's modern society does not like those instructions because the underlying framework and view on the role of husband and wife is incompatible with modern Western (and certainly woke) thinking.

Connecting the dots between Torah, Yeshua, Paul and Peter .. and observing the theological and cross-cultural arguments made by these, the position that the instructions on this matter are just accidentally local to time and culture without wider universal implications feels artificially forced and unlikely.

Regarding 'chauvinism', I would not like to say that you are or aren't. The points you make can be viewed under that banner but that doesn't mean the word needs to be applied to your identity. Like you, I do think this word is thrown around a lot, misused etc.

I am taking from you, though, that your view is that society allows sin and tries to twist the words to make sin okay. I agree with you that this happens all the time and across nations. But, I don't think this applies to the point of my thread at all.

As I have stated before, if men are meant to lead because they are all the things women are not, according to Paul, then I need to see that men are truly all the things that women are not for this to stand. It cannot stand because it's simply not true. Therefore, it seems to make sense to me that Paul's words were aimed towards a specific audience for a specific reason and cannot be used as instruction for everyone, everywhere for all time.

Regarding seeking assistance via the pastor, that is a great suggestion, but they have already stated that Paul's comments were aimed to a specific audience so their view is already known to me and was made known to me during a sermon made after I made this post.
About 70-80% of churches in Western countries have moved from the Patriarchal to the Egalitarian view I estimate - your church would be one of those. In those churches speakers would have to generalise or skip entire sections of the NT, or transform any gender-specific instruction into a unisex one ... leaving the worldview and theological framework of the NT writers - and the underlying nuance is lost.

Maybe an interesting question would be: why is it the classical Patriarchal view - the headship of the husband in marriage, or the headship of God over Christ causes discomfort among many believers in Western nations these days? Causes the headship of Christ over man(kind) the same anxiety? Modern theologians might even say that view is wrong altogether universally, but then the problem presents itself how God could have endorsed/guided this view in the NT in the 1st century even in that local culture.

Be blessed .. !

PS: God is a God of order and everywhere in society authority structures are in place to let everything operate optimally. Governments have Presidents or Prime Ministers, companies have CEO's, schools have Principals, air planes have Captains, buses have drivers, armies have Generals ... We all recognise and accept the associated authority of these roles; and no one argues to abolish them because incidental abuse of that authority may occur. But somehow in marriage (a team of two) the Biblically prescribed authority structure is bad since the feminist wave? That should make us think ..
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Trump’s team sees Europe’s ‘erasure.’

No, it seems like you were correct.

But it's against the rules to copy and paste an entire article, so I could only offer a couple snippets as a sample for this discussion. I regret choosing those two snippets.

Read the article. There's a lot more involved.
I have never once referred to the article in my posts, I even copied the exact reasons for the fine in a quote here in the first post I made and several times pointed out they were there. There's nothing else behind this fine, except X not abiding by regulations in a market where they operate. It's just Elon crying that he can't do whatever he wants.
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Not a lot of respect for men

I didn't. Refer to my last response to you. As far as the rest of it, I don't want to derail the topic and get into a debate.
I don't like debate. God, not debate, converts people. But Cakvinists don't teach that childless women go to hell.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Thurs Thoughts 12/18/2025:
Zeroing in on how a very long
Road over to Bethlehem through
Over in a very long journey and
Joseph carrying doing the very heavy
Lifting as it had to be such a
Very few hours for him to get up and
Initially sending Mary away over being pregnant but
God told him it was God's child and to marry Mary and
Bring her to the lowly manger and it shaped
Jesus where He would be God's one and only Son.
To serve in a humble and kind manner a life of service.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Wed Thoughts 12/17/2025:
Mary in her mind initially had the
Baby not knowing what He would
Accomplish and that He would be
Our only hope for eternity and
Being saved by accepting Him as
Our Savior and Lord and repent of our sins
Knowing He would be brutally beaten, ridicule, and
Rejected but He loved us before we loved Him.
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JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Tues Thoughts 12/16/2025:
How that when Jesus would
Come from very humble beginnings
He would not be just an ordinary
King but the King of Kings and
Lord of Lords and that He would
Come to serve us and to save
Us from our sins and for us to not be
Eternally separated from God when we
Leave this world or when Jesus comes back.
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A big advantage of fire

Put some fire in that life of your for some amazing outcomes!

*A man can be short, dumpy, and getting bald, but if he has fire, women will like him. -Mae West

E = mc2... Or divided... Mass (m) = Fire (E/c2)...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

JPPT1974's Daily Devotions

JPPT1974's Mon Thoughts 12/15/2025:
How the lowly manger that
Were very crowded and really during
Very hard for Mary while she was
Pregnant with God's Son and
Joseph her new husband pulling
His pregnant wife by God and a camel
Going such a very long way and beyond.
To be born in such humble beginnings.
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