fli said:

Everyone can take advantage of one or the other, although only the elect will succeed in believing in Jesus. The church does not teach both offers. The only one they tell people about is believe in Jesus to be saved.

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And do you have a verse for the ELECT. ??

And I have one , why NOT. you FIRST since you BROUGHT it up. first. and then. I will answer YOU. !!

dan p

The Established Church as the People of God of the New Covenant, isn’t a correct statement as it is only individuals who qualify according to their faith and righteousness.
In the New Testament no emphasis is given to any select group, but only to the whole company of what the NT calls ‘the elect,’ ‘the saints,’ ‘the disciples,’ ‘the brothers and sisters.’ If we recognise that all born again, baptised believers make up the Body of Christ and the People of God, we won’t make the mistake of identifying the true church with the Established Church. The real church is always the whole People of God, the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the whole communion (fellowship, koinonia) of the disciples of Jesus. It includes lay persons, clergy and non-church people. All faithful Christian believers make up and belong together to the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy nation.

This implies a second conclusion: that as Christians, all members of the Church are fundamentally equal. All equally have been called by God to belong, all equally have been justified by Christ, all equally have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All equally have been called to respond to the message, the person and the work of Christ, by their faith, their commitment, their cooperation, their trust and their love. In principle also, all are equally responsible for the Church’s work in the world, its mission to spread to Gospel.

The gifts of the Spirit result in different services, tasks, functions and offices, but they are secondary to the fundamental membership in the Church which is based on true belief, and to the life of discipleship which stems from keeping the Commandments and doing the works according each individual’s situation. What counts more than any ministry or office, however exalted, is whether we live authentically as members of the chosen People of God.

Do we live in faith, hope and love in covenant relationship with God and with our fellow disciples of Jesus?
For, more than anything, the Church is the community of the disciples of Jesus. Everything else is secondary and subordinate to that. The shared call to baptism and discipleship has meant that from the beginning all kinds of people, sometimes persons naturally opposed, have joined the church and belonged to the congregation.

Jews and Gentiles, free citizens and slaves, rich and poor, men and women, have shared with one another in the life of the Church as fellow disciples of Jesus Christ, their Lord. An important point is that only through Jesus, has every Christian become the People of God in the New Covenant.

This has happened ‘in Christ,’ as Paul says. This truth raises two questions, vital questions in Christian-Jewish dialogue and reconciliation today:
1. Has God rejected His ethnic people and been unfaithful to his promises?
2. Have the Jews ceased to be a People of God?
These are difficult questions, which have been debated by Bible scholars and theologians for many years. To both of these questions the Apostle Paul has given a decisive ‘No!’ But as we see today sadly: most Jews continue to reject Jesus.

So; who exactly is the Israel of God now?

We know from Romans 9:27, that Israel is as numerous as the sands of the sea and 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1 both send greetings to the Twelve Tribes, scattered abroad.
The Jews alone do not fit either of these criteria.

The truth, that God has kept hidden from general knowledge, is that the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region by Assyria did not remain there and they migrated across Europe, Jeremiah 31:21, they now comprise most of the Western peoples and have become the Christian nations.

That God’s Plan to have a people that bear the proper fruit; as the Jews rejected Him, Matthew 21:43, HAS been successful and that Western Christians are mostly Israelites: actual descendants of Jacob, is nothing short of miraculous and shows God’s amazing Plan of sending Jesus to be our Redeemer and Saviour, to be God’s fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 7:37
Note: that Jesus came to be our Redeemer. To redeem someone means to reinstate them, to buy them back again from a fallen state.

Our destiny as born again Christians, is to be the people God has never had, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, Acts 1:8 and displaying His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14 It will be our privilege and our honour, as He showers His Spirit and His Blessings upon His righteous people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Revelation 7:9

The acceptance of the Gospel by some Jews like Paul means that their apostasy is not total. But the bulk of the ethnic Christian Israel of God are His people who have forgotten their ancestry. In the end times, their eyes will be opened and their ears unstopped; Isaiah 32:3-4 All the true righteous and faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, will be citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land, but in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, the majority will be the actual descendants of Jacob. Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 50:4-7

As Paul asserts: in the end "all Israel will be saved.” That is: every ethnic Israelite faithful to God, will enter the holy Land, accompanied by every true Christian Gentile, all members of the Israel of God, Isaiah 56:1-8, Ephesians 2:1-18, but ALL who reject Him will not. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hebrews 10:26-27

Job 33:6 said:

Call it nonsense if you want. This is history. This is the reality of old testament history. I'm not just making stuff up for fun. I'm just pointing it out.

It's not like I just woke up one day in the morning and just started inventing ideas. These are all well-recorded concepts of church history.

And you were asking for references in history, so, I am providing them. And I have a lot of them. I could easily drop a couple dozen sources just like this.

I want you to know that I am not making this up.

So when the Jewish Publication Society in their JPS translation, says "When God began to ceate the earth, the earth was formless", you should know that they write it specifically this way, so that you would know, when you read it, that creation was formless when God began.

And this is significant because verse 1 is not an event.

"When I began to ride my bike to the store..."

This isnt even a complete statement. It's just me preparing you for something. It in and of itself is not an independent clause. And hundreds of hebrew Bible scholars have lots of writings on this subject. It is a well established and well known alternative rendering of the text, that is legitimate, is based on proper hebrew translation, and is historically accurate and well attested to. And here it is, 1500+ years ago, right there in writings by expert Rabbi's of the Torah.

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It's not history. It's interpretations.
Do you know what history is?

Hey Bob, may I remind you of the things that you want to hold onto;

Flesh
19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;


And the things that God wants to give you.

Spirit
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control.

Job 33:6 said:

Nope. They explicitly conclude:
"“In the beginning, God created” (Genesis 1:1) – from what? “The earth was emptiness and disorder” (Genesis 1:2)."

They dont say creation from nothing. They conclude, creation occurred from...the earth was empty and disordered.

It's like saying, the palace was built from what? From the sewers. As the text is explicitly written.

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Not they.
Remember...
The Midrash Bereshit Rabba, Parashah I, verse 5, is part of a larger interpretive framework
The specific content of Bereshit Rabba 1:5, as referenced in the context, involves a discussion about the creation of the world and the nature of its origins
There are different interpretations here.
You just chose to highlight the one you like.
I'm done with that though. Moving on to the subject of the OP.
I don't know how I spent so much time discussing something that someone is arguing about that has nothing to do with old earth young earth.

Douggg said:

Look at Ezekiel 38. Does it say that Gog/Magog is going to attack a nation that formed following a solar flare event that destroyed it's previous population ?

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It does.
Ezekiel 38:8-12 You will invade a land restored from ruin, whose people are brought out from the nations and are now prosperous and living undisturbed, without any defences.
Zephaniah 1:18 is just one of many prophesies that clearly describe the Holy Land depopulated - cleared and cleansed of all that pollutes it.

Jeremiah says it plainly; Judahs land and houses will be given to others.

Douggg said:

They don't "hate" Jesus.

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But the Jews do reject Jesus and they belong to the synagogue of Satan.
MANY Prophesies tell of their virtual demise and how only a Christian remnant will survive.

The idea of a Jewish redemption is wrong and is never stated in the Bible.
Please; no more unsupported opinion. Scriptural truths only!

Okay. I took the time to read the nonsense from the beginning and this person - Rav Huna is saying what you are saying.
I'm not interested in the arguments here, as they are debating ideas, and interpretations, many of which are nonsense, to me.
They discredit the Bible with their erroneous interpretations.
I'll stick with the Bible, Thank you.

Well, let's see the evidence! And it better not be like, "they were mean!" kind of arguments. Show some serious proof of "human rights violations". Because to me, these claims have lost all meaning when the left use them on the regular and its because they didn't get a frapa-late from starbucks or something... If they actually did do something, then anyone involved should be held accountable, but I doubt anything will happen.

Chesterton said:

When it comes to morality, I've found I always get the standard early 21st century zeitgeist kind of answer, which leans left (unless I use wording which makes it think I might want to hear something else. Then it might modify slightly).

I asked it if it's acceptable to call someone a Brit, a Swede, a P_ki, a Pole or a Finn. They were all perfectly fine to use, except Pa_i of course. Then when I try to delve into a reason for the double-standard, I get the same nonsense I get from liberals in real life.

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Yes if you make it clear you're not going to be offended in some topics or answers, you might see different answers if applicable. You can take it even further by asking questions of controversial nature roleplaying the "devil's advocate".

You'll get more info from AI this way. Taking side with both opposing teams, one at a time. Taking the side of a friend and then taking the side of the enemy.

Say it aint so said:

It's quite apparent there are guidelines at Fannie.

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it is? Please - where is it apparent? You have a link showing that, or it is your assumption.

I'm not defending anyone -

A report from Ankara is causing considerable unrest in Jerusalem: the Turkish government under President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is apparently preparing to send a large-scale military contingent to the Gaza Strip, despite Israel's explicit opposition.

Around 2,000 Turkish soldiers are reportedly undergoing training for an international ‘peace mission’ that will officially operate under the mandate of the United Nations.

In Ankara, the planned mission is being presented as a contribution to the ‘stabilisation’ of Gaza and to securing the ceasefire. But behind the humanitarian rhetoric lies a clear political ambition: the return of Turkey as a dominant player in the Middle East even at the expense of Israel.

Government sources emphasise that Israel considers the presence of Turkish soldiers in Gaza unacceptable. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is said to have made it unmistakably clear to US Vice President J.D. Vance during his visit to Israel last month that this constitutes a ‘red line’.

Turkey wants to expand its regional influence by presenting itself as the protector of the Palestinians. In reality, it is undermining Israel's sovereignty and attempting to gain Western legitimacy for its neo-Ottoman ambitions.

American advisers see the Turkish initiative as an attempt to limit Iran and Qatar's influence on the post-war order in Gaza – but Jerusalem does not believe in altruistic motives. Israel's position remains clear: no foreign military on land that has been demilitarised under Israeli control.

Experience from Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh shows that Turkish ‘peace missions’ are rarely neutral. They regularly serve as instruments of geopolitical influence through military presence, intelligence activities and economic expansion.

Erdoğan does not want to secure peace, but to control the narrative. When Turkish soldiers come to Gaza, they will not withdraw, they will remain there, physically or politically.

While Ankara is pushing ahead with its plans, other countries are pulling back. Azerbaijan, which was originally considered a possible participant in the international stabilisation force, has stated that it will not send troops at present ‘as long as the security situation remains unstable’. The United Arab Emirates has also ruled out any military involvement. Their foreign policy adviser, Anwar Gargash, described the proposal as ‘dangerous and premature in a highly sensitive situation’.

This threatens to derail the entire concept of a multinational peacekeeping force before it has even begun. Without broad international participation, Turkey could attempt to send its troops unilaterally if necessary, a scenario that Israel would consider provocative.

While the US and Israel are trying to establish a technocratic transitional administration, Ankara is exploiting the uncertainty to gain influence.

Gaza is not only a humanitarian hotspot, but also a geopolitical chessboard, and Erdoğan has just announced his next move.

rjs330 said:

There aren't any anti-immigrant MAGA folks.

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Sure there are.

essentialsaltes said:

These insults and digs are coming from MAGA Republicans like Laura Loomer:

"Our country was built by white Europeans, actually. Not third-world invaders from India," Loomer said. "It's not racist against Indians to want the original MAGA policies I voted for. I voted for a reduction in H-1B visas. Not an extension."

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rjs330 said:

ICE had a warrant and got a couple hundred illegals there. It came on the heals of an investigation. So once again they were doing their job.

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*heels* Unfortunately, they also arrested, manhandled and deported several hundred South Koreans who had valid work permits, who were not illegal.

rjs330 said:

Any Anericans were released.

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At what point?

rjs330 said:

Americans better wake up and stop tolerating the blatant violation of immigration laws. Americans stood up and said enough when Trump was elected and we still feel that way. If you are an illegal go home and come here legally. Become an AMERICAN. If you want to come and join us and try to grab the American dream and assimilate into our culture and become a productive American we are happy to have you. And you should be treated like an American. I love what Teddy Roosevelt said.

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These South Koreans were not here illegally nor were they working illegally. It may come as a surprise to you but Americans disagree with you on this - you are already aware that trump did not get the majority of votes in 2024 and you may perhaps be aware that not all those who voted for him did so on the immigration issue.

rjs330 said:

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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That's some mighty fine rhetoric, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny or analysis.

timothyu said:

Matthew 16: 17 .... For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, hbut my Father who is in heaven.

Truth comes only from the Father and this is what the church was to be built upon, truth from the Father, not the doctrines, traditions nor will of man using God for their own purposes. Anyone putting their will ahead of the will of God, especially in religion, is working for the Adversary.

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# 1 IS TO DO WHAT 1 Cor 11:1 what. all are to do , You become IMITATORS. of ME // in. the Greek is EMPHATIC.

meaning ME. and only ME. just as I. AM. of CHRIST. !!

# 2 Is to RIGHTLY DIVIDE. to present yourself approved. to God a WORKMAN RIGHLY DIVIDING the WORD of TRUTH !!

dan p

Job 33:6 said:

Here, I've color coded the text to help highlight what it is saying, why do you think they are talking about a palace being made out of sewers in paralalle to creation out of disorder?

Lets just read it again:

The way of the world is that when a flesh-and-blood king builds his palace in [a location that had been] a place of sewers, a place of refuse, and a malodorous place, anyone who comes and says: ‘This palace was built in a place of sewers, a place of refuse, and a malodorous place,’ is this not an insult? So, too, anyone who comes and says: ‘This world was created from emptiness and disorder,’ is this not an insult? This is a rhetorical question. Rav Huna said in the name of bar Kapara: Were the matter not written explicitly it would not have been possible to say it: “In the beginning, God created” (Genesis 1:1) – from what? “The earth was emptiness and disorder” (Genesis 1:2).

From what?

This palace was built in a place of sewers, a place of refuse...it was stinky and smelly and worthless. Just like the emptiness and disorder that the world was created from or out of.

It's saying that something beautiful was created out of, or from, something disgusting. The question is, Is that not an insult? To God?

The rabbis are questioning if it is God honoring that creation would occur out of disorder.

And then they continue on and to determine the answer, bar Kapara says "were the matter not explicitly written, it would not have been possible to say".

Then he goes on to say, God created...from what? The answer? The earth was emptiness and disorder. It was waste. And the palace was built from that waste

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To say that anyone who comes and says the world came out of emptiness and chaos, is like the person that says the palace was built in a place of sewers, a place of refuse...it was stinky and smelly and worthless. Just like the emptiness and disorder that the world was created from or out of.
Hence they view it as an insult to God.

is this not an insult? So, too, anyone who comes and says: ‘This world was created from emptiness and disorder,’ is this not an insult?

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To piggy back off of Timothyu because I agree, God is the one who determines what is truth. If you don't have God, you can debate the bible until you die but how much of it would you get right? Probably not very much since we got demonic influence to handle too. So how do you know what is truth? When you follow God. I am a believer that you can be placed on an island, no bible, no access to people what-so-ever or the internet and come out being a scholar because God will teach you what you need to know. The bible is an aid, and should never replace your walk with Christ.

Job 33:6 said:

Here, let me help you. I am copying directly from Bereshit Rabba 1:5:

Rav Huna said in the name of bar Kapara: Were the matter not written explicitly it would not have been possible to say it: “In the beginning, God created” (Genesis 1:1) – from what? “The earth was emptiness and disorder” (Genesis 1:2)."

From what? The answer: The earth was emptiness and disorder.

That's it.

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J. Let go of those emotions and focus.
Let your mind take in what you read.
So, too, anyone who comes and says: ‘This world was created from emptiness and disorder,’ is this not an insult? This is a rhetorical question. Rav Huna said in the name of bar Kapara: Were the matter not written explicitly it would not have been possible to say it: “In the beginning, God created” (Genesis 1:1) – from what? “The earth was emptiness and disorder” (Genesis 1:2).
Explain his argument, J.

Job 33:6 said:

I''m going to let AI summarize this, because I want you to see that it is not me just imaginging things. But simply copying and pasting Bereshit Rabbah 1:5 directly into AI analysis provides the following direct quotes that are plainly readable. I have eyeballs, I've read it, I see it, I know it is there. I want you to see that it is not just me, it's right there in the text:

From Google's AI text reviewer:

Bereshit Rabba 1:5, The source explicitly states that the earth began as "emptiness and disorder" (tohu vavohu). This understanding is derived from the verse in Genesis (1:1-2): "In the beginning, God created...from what? 'The earth was emptiness and disorder'".

The sources discuss the creation of the world from disorder, or "emptiness and disorder" (tohu va'vohu), primarily within the context of whether speaking about this origin is permissible or honors God.
Key points regarding creation out of disorder:
1. The Starting Material is Recognized: The text explicitly quotes Genesis 1:2, confirming the starting state of the world: "The earth was emptiness and disorder". This is the source from which God created, following the initial statement "In the beginning, God created".
2. Potential for Insult/Contempt: There is a concern that mentioning the world's origin in disorder is offensive to God's honor. The text offers a comparison:
◦ When a mortal king builds a palace in a location that was previously a place of sewers, refuse, or malodorous, stating this fact is generally considered an insult.
◦ Similarly, the text poses a rhetorical question, suggesting that anyone who says: ‘This world was created from emptiness and disorder,’ is this not an insult?.
3. Justification for Stating the Origin: Despite the potential for insult, Rav Huna, in the name of bar Kapara, explains that this fact must be stated because "Were the matter not written explicitly it would not have been possible to say it". The scriptural account itself reveals that God created from the state of "emptiness and disorder".
4. Context of Divine Honor: This discussion is framed by the opening of Psalms 31:19, concerning the silencing of "lying lips" that speak "harsh words" against the Eternal Righteous One. These "harsh words" (atak) are characterized as matters that God concealed from His creations. The text suggests bewilderment at those who might boast about expounding the act of Creation or show contempt for God's honor.
In summary, the sources confirm that the world originated from a state of "emptiness and disorder," but emphasize that this fact is only known because God revealed it in Scripture, and mentioning it runs the risk of showing contempt for the Divine honor, similar to insulting a builder by pointing out the foul ground upon which a magnificent structure was raised.
Furthermore, the sources consistently stress that God acted alone in the creation process. The creation was not spontaneous chaos yielding to order, but an intentional act of a sole creator, who looked in the Torah, which served as His artisan's tool (uman) or blueprint, to create the world. The Torah itself is considered to have preceded the world's creation.

And you can read Bereshit Rabba 1:5 right here, its pretty plainly stated:

Bereshit Rabbah 1:5

Rav Huna began in the name of bar Kapara: “May they be silenced [te’alamna], those lying lips [that speak harsh words against the righteous one with arrogance...

www.sefaria.org

If you want me to use my computer to provide screenshots or photographs of the text of Bereshit Rabba 1:5, so that you can see where it says the above, let me know and I will send you photographs or screenshots. But otherwise, if you have eyeballs, it is right there for you to see and to read.

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These interpretations are ridiculous.
Why would anyone Christian or not, want to refer to them?

Interesting, she was raised Catholic and later converted to Judaism to marry her (ex?) husband,…hmmmm

The Barbarian said:

I'm trying to figure out how allowing couples to marry each other will harm the rest of us. I don't recall Jesus declaring that government control was the answer to sin. If He didn't think it was worth mentioning, why should be think it's how a nation will be judged?

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There's examples in scripture where a leadership promoted sin, and thus, the entire nation was judged.

The Lord had humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had promoted wickedness in Judah and had been most unfaithful to the Lord" - (2 Chronicles 28:19)

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Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the Lord was not willing to forgive. - (2 Kings 24:3-4)

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Who ever is in power and what they do, absolutely has consequences. So since God is against gay relationships in general, the promotion and allowance of it, will absolutely have consequences. It's not about it "harming" us in the sense like physical violence, but it is "harming" in the sense of spiritual righteousness. When you promote and allow sin to run rampant, eventually the country is judged. Just like Sodom, just like Gomorrah, Babylon and others. The world screams "tolerance" but Gods rules are applied to every single person living on this planet and he has the right to judge when he's had enough.

Michie said:

What the Media aren’t Telling You About That ‘Gay Marriage’ Case SCOTUS Rejected

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As long as they respect the rights of others to deny them service, I don’t care, to be honest.

The Barbarian said:

I'm trying to figure out how allowing couples to marry each other will harm the rest of us. I don't recall Jesus declaring that government control was the answer to sin. If He didn't think it was worth mentioning, why should be think it's how a nation will be judged?

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They harm themselves spiritually, that’s for sure, and forcing others to provide for services when others believe it’s wrong or immoral is never ok. They cannot impose their “values” onto others. It’s a two way street.

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “go and sin no more.”

Apple Sky said:

back to you ..........

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As it is not me who writes endless posts on the same subject, refuses to listen to any explanations and whose ultimate, desperate, response is either "fake", "lies" or "prove it", you have no reason to me.

If you don't like it that people argue with your beliefs; stop posting them - and starting new threads on the same subject when the others get closed/you get bored with them.