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The Liturgist · 2025-11-22T22:19:19-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Was Jesus ever sick or in pain?

Yes, clearly: fasting for 40 days is possible but uncomfortable, as any Orthodox Christian will tell you. Hence the devil tempting Him.

Insofar as Christ is God incarnate, after He put on our fallen nature in order to redeem and glorify it He would have been vulnerable to any and all forms of human suffering up to and including death, and this is reflected in the Creed.

The rejection of the idea of suffering on the part of Christ is the characteristic belief of Docetism and the related Nestorian and Apthartodocetist belief systems, which separate the divinity of Christ from His human prosopon hypostatically, which means you have one divine person united to the man Jesus only by a shared will.

The latter belief system began to emerge in the writings of Diodore of Tarsus, was expounded upon by Theodore of Mopesuestia and then adopted by Nestorius as a means of justifying his attempt to suppress, with force, the use of the traditional title “Theotokos” found in the writings of his illustrious predecessor in Constantinople, St. John Chrysostom, who was also from Antioch originally, and in other early church fathers; before Nestorius, only the Antidicomarians rejected this title as as a group.

RDKirk · 2025-11-22T22:19:19-0600

Yarddog said:
After WWII, war crime trials executed guards and soldiers which were following orders.

They executed guards and soldiers who violated what was already international law treaties that Germany had ratified. In other words, they had violated the laws of their own nation.

If a US soldier obeys a law that is declared illegal only after the fact, he will not be prosecuted.

Apple Sky · 2025-11-22T22:18:31-0600

Hentenza said:
He killed himself because of misguided beliefs.

So he committed suicide ?
Rubbish -

iluvatar5150 · 2025-11-22T22:14:44-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
That's part of the problem that Democrats have, if anyone was "aligned with Trump" at any point, "you're dead to me...forever"

What are you talking about?

For one thing, when have I ever been that sort of purist?

But more to my point, she’s not some generic Trump-aligned Republican. She’s consistently been one of the craziest, most strident people in American politics.

ThatRobGuy said:
But the reality is, she's in a solid red deep South district (where's she's won handily multiple times, by 75/25 margins). The notion that an unknown moderate, who's not explicitly "Trump-endorsed", is going to win that district is a pipe dream.

Her advantage as an incumbent (who already has name recognition as is well-liked in her district) would give her an advantage that a newcomer wouldn't have.

So I'll stand by my original statement... the Democrats would've been better off extending an olive branch (even if she only sides with them 20% of the time moving forward), vs. what they're going to get as her replacement.

You can bank on the fact that Trump will be watching that house election closely, and making sure to meddle in any way he can to make sure it's a loyalist far-right person who takes that seat... I'll send you $20 on venmo if I'm wrong lol

I would take a generic conservative over a loony hatemonger like her any day. The fact that she’s on the right side of the Epstein case doesn’t change that.

Reluctant Theologian · 2025-11-22T22:12:36-0600

Fervent said:
Perhaps in a sense there is a higher fidelity, though that is at least a product of survivorship bias given the penchant for destruction of variants. But as far as I am aware, there isn't as open of a process for critical scholarship regarding the manuscripts that do exist. Also, there is the issue of what constitutes a variant given the dialect variance that exists within the manuscripts and the tolerance for at least seven distinct Arabic dialects or "readings". And in addition to the issues you mentioned, there is the unity of the text that is also in play given the relatively late collection into a single codex for the Bible compared to the Qu'ran. My minor quibble with what you had said was simply because it appeared to express a confidence in the Qu'ranic texts that the comparitive interest in critical scholarship creates a slight bias. There is also the issue of the oldest extant manuscript displaying a massive amount of variance from the later standardized texts from chapter order, number, and variant readings beyond the recognized "acceptable" variations.

Yes, I get that ... I think it's fair to say that from Uthman (650 CE) until now the Quranic textual stability is indeed higher than that of the NT writings over that time-frame; yet it's also true the earliest Quran manuscripts we have definitely show variance going back to pre-Uthmanic era. And those variants sometimes indeed changed the meaning of a verse.

The small size of the Quran, the very early (within 20 years of Mohammed) standardisation and the tradition of memorising/reciting the Quran (facilitated by its smaller size), all helped to maintain that textual stability.

It's true Quranic textual criticism is underdeveloped relatively to the Jewish/Christian ones. And indeed in the Islamic world it's common to exaggerate the Quranic stability and claim perfect preservation (which those earliest manuscripts show is not true). But in Christian traditional circles you will find the same exaggerated claim and even plain rejection of any textual criticism.

NT variants sometimes are plain copying errors, sometimes obvious 'corrections/additions' to facilitate the theology/understanding of the copyist. So all together I still would maintain the textual stability (from original author to now) of the NT is worse than that of the Quran, but that does not mean the Quranic 'revelation' is more believable or true that the NT. I believe Yeshua is the Son of God (YHWH) who died for our sins - something the Quran explicitly denies.

For mission and personal witness to Muslims - even as friends - I need to know the Quran, otherwise I can't make any comparative claims about it relative to the Bible. I need to know about the life of Mohammed in order to make comparative claims relative to Yeshua.

Be blessed!

RileyG · 2025-11-22T22:07:10-0600

Glory to God! Awesome!

The Liturgist · 2025-11-22T22:07:05-0600

jonojim1337 said:
12 is the number of lictor states in the original Roman Kingdom. To me this signifies it’s restoration. It doesn’t exclude the multitudes, who take part in the second resurrection, but the first fruits, or the first born, inherit the power structure.

That’s not Eastern Orthodox doctrine.

You are aware the Orthodox Church officially rejected chiliasm at the second ecumenical council in Constantinople in 381 AD?

Richard T · 2025-11-22T22:05:48-0600

Angeleyes7715 said:
I don't feel like I can pray right anymore. I'm scared I'm going to hell. I hallucinated audible demons. I have diagnosed schizophrenia but it felt so real.

We pray that you can healing, that the power of God will permeate your entire being. That any demonic involvement will be driven ut in the name of Jesus. I too once was struggling and asked God to send someone to help. A couple of months later an avengelist I had seen before was going to be in my area. I went to that meeting and recieved a healing.
As you say you are apostolic, I hope you will consider alternate Pentecostal churches too for help. Lay aside doctrinal differences and let God know that you are open for whatever help that is available. Much peace and grace to you.

Apple Sky · 2025-11-22T22:01:10-0600

Bradskii said:
Maybe Del could explain that.

You live in Oz, maybe you can explain this.

Or this.

RileyG · 2025-11-22T21:59:57-0600

Arcangl86 said:
Technically, the UK doesn't have a state religion, but England does. The Church of England is established in England, but only in England. The Church in Wales, Church of Scotland (presbyterian not Anglican), Scottish Episcopal Church and Church of Ireland are not established churches.

Also this can be the case of something being normal but being done in violation of the law and only now did somebody care enough to sue.

Thanks for the info!

RileyG · 2025-11-22T21:59:38-0600

rebornfree said:
It was normal, in England, back in the sixties, when I was at school. We had a religious assembly before lessons with a hymn and prayer. Those of other religions (not many in those days) could opt out. Some students and teachers who didn’t believe just sat quietly but most of us joined in. At some point, between then and now, it stopped happening but I'm not sure when that was. Northern Ireland has always been more religious than the rest of the UK and, having it's own parliament, presumably kept the practise going for longer.

Btw what you call public schools is what we call state schools. I just mention that to prevent confusion. (Our public schools are expensive fee paying ones, like Eton and Harrow.)

Ah, thanks for the info!

Sam266 · 2025-11-22T21:59:20-0600

Hans Blaster said:
That is not an evaluation of NDEs. It is a claim about an afterlife.

What do you think NDEs are about if not the afterlife and the survival of the self? I've studied this subject for the past 20 years. It includes reading more than 5000 accounts from around the world.

Arcangl86 · 2025-11-22T21:59:04-0600

RileyG said:
Thanks for sharing.

I thought in the UK it was normal to have prayer in public schools because they had a state religion? The more you know!

Technically, the UK doesn't have a state religion, but England does. The Church of England is established in England, but only in England. The Church in Wales, Church of Scotland (presbyterian not Anglican), Scottish Episcopal Church and Church of Ireland are not established churches.

Also this can be the case of something being normal but being done in violation of the law and only now did somebody care enough to sue.

Apple Sky · 2025-11-22T21:53:39-0600

prodromos said:
The Bristol Channel is no more than 40 miles wide below Swansea

I'm not facing the Bristol Channel.

Vambram · 2025-11-22T21:49:06-0600

Yarddog said:
He doesn't care what the article says. He saw LGTBQ+ and the rest doesn't matter.

You are incorrect.

Clare73 · 2025-11-22T21:44:32-0600

concretecamper said:
Thank you for demonstrating your incorrect notion of philosophy as well as Theology

It falls to you to show the philosophical error, as well as the Scriptural basis regarding "free will,"
keeping in mind that man's will is not free to live sinlessly, at best his "free will" is only partial or limited.

Sam266 · 2025-11-22T21:42:42-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, that's true. Some here won't be familiar with him and some will give up reading your exposition after the first or second post, but I'm hanging in here for the moment. The main reason I know of Wittgenstein is because I had to read a portion of his Tractatus years ago for a 20th Century Analytic Philosophy course I took, along with a small smattering of bits of his work regarding his idea of Language Games.

What I find interesting here is that you've shared that you're an older fellow and a former Christian. I'm just wondering what the main locus of relevance is that you're wanting to share here in regard to the Resurrection.

Basically, that the resurrection evidence is weak and that it doesn't warrant the conclusion that Christians claim. For example, most of the testimonial evidence is secondhand or hearsay and that there is very little corroboration other than the same story being repeated by other Christians. I'll get to how you evaluate good testimonial evidence versus bad testimonial evidence later.

Sam266 · 2025-11-22T21:37:21-0600

Hans Blaster said:
And what was the conclusion of your evaluation of NDEs? This is an empirical test of yer episemological frame work.

My conclusion is that we do survive the death of the body with our identity intact. So, there is an afterlife, but you have to read the book to get the full impact of the argument. It's not an easy read for people. I'll give some of the argument later in another thread.

Jipsah · 2025-11-22T21:36:26-0600

RDKirk said:
We know about the sight reading fiasco that the education industry hasn't given up yet.

Yeah, teaching a (pretty much) phoneticly written language as though it was Chinese characters was less than brilliant. There was a reason why the design for written Korean (Hangul) is purely phonetic. It's just inherently easier to learn

RDKirk said:
But in the 80s the "new math" concept is also a disaster.

AFAIK, Asians all teach columnar arithmetic, although I could be wrong. But I know they emphasize the "drill and kill" method of teaching maths, where you do the various operations in various forms and levels of complexity until they're as ingrained as the alphabet. They also requite the memorization of the multiplication table and various rules of operations, and beat them into the students heads by repetition. They prove the truth of the old axioms that "practice makes perfect" and "use makes mastery". But ask any "academic" why we don't use their proven effective methods as opposed to our succession of proven ineffective methods, and they'll give you a scholarly recitation of "reasons " why the Asian Paradign Just Won't Work Here. Apparently American kids are just genetically unable to understand methods that actually work everywhere tjhey're used.

RDKirk said:
I have to quickly point out that a change from the columnar arithmetic we learned up until the 80s to the relational arithmetic used in most of the rest of the world

I've never seen that one in use. The Korean kids I've turored all seem to their ciphering the same way I was taught back in the stone age, with some minor variations. Then again I don't tutor in Maths. Too many years as an engineer rendered me unable to add 2+2 without grabbing a calculator or writing a fortran function.

concretecamper · 2025-11-22T21:32:08-0600

Clare73 said:
Correct. . .that is the way philosophy sees it, "free will" being a philosophical notion, not a Biblical notion.

Thank you for demonstrating your incorrect notion of philosophy as well as Theology

Bradskii · 2025-11-22T21:30:32-0600

essentialsaltes said:
They do, and this fact was known to the ancients 2000 years ago (if not more).

I think Del has left the building. I was going to point out another couple of problems for him.

The first is that ships at night have navigation lights. On certain size ships there'd be two white lights visible from the back as she sails away from you. One on the stern and one atop the mast. If the world was flat then you'd always see those two lights. But as the ship sails away the lower one dissapears. Maybe Del could explain that.

And to contact the ship you'd use VHF radio. Except that as it sails over the horizon it will cut out. And aircraft at 10,000 feet with a decent VHF can contact ships at a distance of around 200 miles. But as the plane flies lower, the radius of the circle within which it can make contact gets smaller. Perhaps he would have had an answer for that as well.

Clare73 · 2025-11-22T21:24:25-0600

concretecamper said:
Listen, you're not going to get anywhere with her. Her belief is that unless you can ALWAYS choose right, you don't have free will. Of course that is a bogus belief, but it's the way she sees it.

Correct. . .that is the way philosophy sees it, "free will" being a philosophical notion, not a Biblical notion.

If you cannot always choose right, then there are times when your will is not free; i.e., your "free will" is limited, which is only partial free will. . .thanks to the fall.

Fervent · 2025-11-22T21:22:50-0600

Yarddog said:
To losing their souls or finding salvation?
Gay children or white supremists.

Seems you're presenting a false disjunctive. Why should we have to choose?

Yarddog · 2025-11-22T21:19:27-0600

Hentenza said:
You quoted my post referring to young, non sexual kids being exposed to sexual gender dysphoria. The question really should be, why should they be exposed?

Because they need to learn that there's nothing to fear. It's okay to be different.

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