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Oompa Loompa · Sep 11, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
Don't know who that is.

Perhaps you could look at the OP post?

Kathleen30 · Sep 11, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
May I have your attention for a moment? I write as a lay person with a deep concern for Christianity in the modern world.
I am inviting comment and reflection, maybe some will share my passion, some may disagree. However, let us review how we practically live out our Christianity in this age.
Where do I begin? Back in the mid 70’s I made a very conscious decision to refer to the Christian scripture as the last word on matters of faith and reality. I had experienced a prodigal’s return and building on my Christian roots was crucial to the journey back to normality.
It became clear to me early on, that pride in its various forms was a very basic trap, so I resolved to keep matters simple. It was clear to me that our God does not judge on the basis of intelligence therefore the truth had to be simple and understandable.
If the bible was indeed God’s roadmap for life then its understanding was not confined to the scholars, but rather the keys for understanding were available to all.

From my learning about Church history I found that repeatedly, when God impacted a whole society and there was wholesale repentance, everywhere bibles were being dusted off, as everyone intuitively knew that when things got serious with God, the bible was the place to look for understanding.
And so it is today, we are in need of a fresh visitation; our society is progressively and rapidly rejecting Christian values and truths.

But it is us I would like to talk about. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, how does our mode of living compare to the simple teachings of the scripture?
There is general agreement that wherever Jesus reigns the Kingdom of God is present.
God in Jesus was quite specific about how we should recognise this. He sent word to John, in order that these would be no doubt, “the blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”

Now the reality is that these signs of the Kingdom are almost totally absent in New Zealand Christianity today yet these signs confirm the presence of Jesus.
What then has happened? This evidence of Jesus was clearly present in the early church but is noticeably absent in modern day Christianity for the most part.
I have to say that there are some simple reasons for this.
Those committed to our church work have become sophisticated and professional. They are generally well trained, talented individuals, able to lead, good managers, but are usually unfamiliar with the power of Jesus at work.

Why has this happened?
Looking back on the last thirty years, the times when Kingdom miracle signs have been evident in New Zealand certain conditions have been met.
Firstly there has been a God given unity among the believers involved.
Management and motivation were not predominant but simple Faith and Love was.
There was generally a lay ministry flowing, the believers would come together to share what God had done, there was a credible manifestation of Jesus in everyday life.
Being part of such an exciting experience meant that things of earth did grow strangely dim… we held onto our possessions more lightly, and there was supply for those who stepped out in God’s purpose without visible support.
The body of believers owned the vision which was planted in their hearts by Jesus rather than being sold by the leaders.
It seems that in the absence of God’s power we have built better programmes to compensate, become better organised so much so that it would be business as usual whether Jesus turns up or not.
Of course we have modified our theology to justify what isn’t happening, but this only masks the problem.
How then do we return to a vibrant biblical Christianity with conversion growth, and transformed lives? We need to return to the early church model clearly represented in the first Jerusalem Church (Acts 2:42-47), and the writings of Paul.
Start small with your close friends, read the scripture together and give God a blank page and room to move. Say less and pray more. Believe and act on the words of promise in the scripture. Confess your sin to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed…

Carl I do think the Church were more community minded . Lots of visitations and social functions. People never had a thing called the internet. So in your time there was much more interaction and more meaningful experience between people forming more influence and bonding in the community. In your time I do sometimes hear that people once sought out each other’s company in fellowship and in pursuit of understanding scripture. They did search out the scriptures much more. It was nothing for the Jones or the Smiths to turn up uninvited for a chat over many topics and a good cup of coffee or tea. Today you need a appointment or you be carted away for trespassing : )

Abraxos · Sep 11, 2025

Disclaimer:

This study challenges many common teachings about the Four Horsemen, Revelation, and end-times theology. It dismisses the typical portrayal of the book of Revelation as mainly foretelling doom and gloom. This view does not align with denominational doctrines, dispensationalist timelines, or church-age perspectives. It may be seen as provocative. Not intentional-ish.

______________________________________________________________________

Riders of Renewal: How the Four Horsemen Begin in the End Times

White Horse = Victory
Red Horse = Upheaval
Black Horse = Collapse and Divine Preservation
Green Horse = Judgment

The Four Horsemen of Revelation are not harbingers of chaos but heralds of restoration. They have often been read as omens of reckless destruction - conquest, war, famine, and death - but within the broader biblical narrative, they emerge as agents of God’s purposeful intervention. Far from being chaotic forces, they are instruments of a divinely ordered sequence that dismantles false security, confronts corruption, exposes hidden truth, and enacts righteous judgment. Each rider operates under heaven’s authority, initiating a process that shakes the nations and purifies God’s people. Together, they form a prophetic progression: the White Horse brings victory through God’s appointed servant; the Red Horse strips away false peace; the Black Horse exposes the fragility of worldly systems while preserving the faithful; and the Green Horse executes final judgment on those who misuse His name. Their mission is not hopeless devastation but ultimate restoration - the establishment of a new order where truth, justice, and holiness prevail under Christ’s reign.

◻️ White Horse: Victory and the Dawn of a New Era (Rev. 6:1-2)

A voice like thunder announces the arrival of God’s appointed servant - the white horse and its rider - whose triumph signals humanity’s victory and the dawning of a new age. Crowned and bearing a bow, this rider goes forth “conquering and to conquer”, not through human violence but by divine authority and Truth. He becomes a banner for the nations, a rallying point drawing all peoples out of darkness and into God’s kingdom (Isaiah 49:6; Acts 13:47). Even across world traditions, there is an echo of this promised figure, yet only Scripture reveals his true identity. In the Book of Enoch, he is the Son of Man associated with Michael; in Judaism, the anticipated Messiah; in Catholicism, the Great Monarch; in Mormonism, the Davidic servant; in Hinduism, the Kalki Avatar; and in Islam, the Mahdi. His revealing shakes the foundations of this old era, initiating the end-times sequence that uproots falsehood and ushers in restoration - a restoration of all things where God sets clear boundaries between good and wickedness, establishing His righteous order.

"Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?" (Isaiah 51:9)

Red Horse: Upheaval, Shaking the World (Rev. 6:3-4)

The red horse symbolises upheaval, the deliberate removal of false peace that masks profound injustice. Its rider, armed with a great sword, is given authority to take peace from the earth, not to spread chaos without cause, but to shatter the façade of stability maintained by corruption. This horse strikes at alliances, powers, and systems that preserve sin under the cover of order. It challenges complacency, forcing the world to confront the moral bankruptcy of its foundations. Just as a hardened field must be broken before it can receive new seed, the red horse ploughs through structures that resist the Truth. It is the necessary tearing before the mending, the storm before the clearing. By removing the counterfeit peace of the world, the red horse prepares the way for the Black Horse’s work, ensuring that Truth stands unmasked and unopposed.

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD Almighty." (Haggai 2:6-7)

"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." (Luke 12:51)

Black Horse: Collapse and Divine Preservation (Rev. 6:5–6)

The black horse represents the fragility and judgment of worldly systems, especially economic and social structures. Its rider carries a pair of scales, a symbol of God’s fairness and righteous measurement. “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius” signals inflation and the failure of human systems to sustain themselves. Fear spreads as the world grapples with instability, revealing the inherent weakness and corruption of its institutions. In a world obsessed with profit, the Black Horse unmasks the illusion of wealth, reminding us that no system can outlast God’s justice. Yet even amid this upheaval, divine protection endures. The voice warns, “Do not harm the oil and the wine.” The oil represents the anointed remnant - God’s faithful servants preserved through the chaos, while the wine symbolises covenant blessing, those nurtured and sustained in His care. The Black Horse does not bring indiscriminate destruction; rather, it exposes falsehood so God’s justice may shine, and His faithful remain secure.

“Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you… You have hoarded wealth in the last days. The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.” (James 5:1-6)

Green Horse: Judgment on Babylon (Rev. 6:8)

The green horse symbolises divine judgment on the churches of the world, across all denominations, that have, in many instances, become sources of pride and complacency, often serving as the symbol of Western civilisation. Though many claim to follow Him, in their fallen and corrupted states, the LORD’s house has collectively become what Revelation foretold: Babylon - a counterfeit system of false worship, spiritual confusion, and broken promises, “a home for demons, a haunt for every unclean and detestable spirit” (Revelation 18:1-2). Jesus has been confined within structures of religion, reduced to rituals, routines, and human agendas, while the essence of His teaching has been distorted through manmade traditions. As 1 Peter 4:17 warns, “it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household,” echoing Ezekiel 14:21, where the house of God is sifted and cleansed of false shepherds, idols, and corruption. The green horse moves with sovereign authority, judging and eradicating what is false and unclean, preparing a faithful remnant for God’s kingdom. Its judgment foreshadows the restoration and righteousness Ezekiel prophesied, establishing God’s eternal and visible kingdom on earth.

"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!" - (Ezekiel 14:21)

Conclusion

The Four Horsemen dismantle every counterfeit throne so Christ’s kingdom alone remains. Through shaking, the unshakable is revealed; through exposure, Truth is made clear; and through judgment, purity emerges.

The White Horse brings victory through God’s appointed servant.

The Red Horse tears down the false peace upheld by sin.

The Black Horse reveals the collapse of worldly systems while preserving the faithful.

The Green Horse executes judgment on all the churches of the world.

Far from a message of despair, the vision of the Four Horsemen proclaims hope - the dismantling of every counterfeit power so that the eternal kingdom of Christ may stand alone. When their work is complete, the world will no longer groan under corruption, but creation itself will rejoice in the freedom of God’s glory:

"Shout for joy, you heavens; rejoice, you earth; burst into song, you mountains! For the Lord comforts his people and will have compassion on his afflicted ones." (Isaiah 49:13)

7thKeeper · Sep 11, 2025

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
His own mother petitioned to commit him and said he was violent!

That didn't answer any of the questions in my post. And was there any information on when and where she did that? It wasn't in the original article as far as I saw looking through it again.

RandyPNW · Sep 11, 2025

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Well, he is no Benedict, but no Francis either. I and many conservative Lutherans are watching him with a guarded sense of approval thus far. But he is not our Bishop, but he is a Bishop that we could work with, as was Benedict.

What he has done is apparently takes side with the Gazan Palestinians against Israel. I don't care for that at all--seems too self-serving for Catholic self-interest in protecting their Middle Eastern peoples.

RandyPNW · Sep 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
This is a problem. A lukewarm liturgy is a disaster, and this, as much as the liberalism, is what is killing the mainline churches. The mainline churches that are either less liberal than others in their denomination, or which have better liturgies, like St. Thomas Fifth Ave, or in a few cases, both (St. John’s Episcopal Church in Detroit, which I thought was Continuing Anglican and was shocked to discover it was Episcopalian), get better attendance. Those Catholic churches which either use the Traditional Latin Mass (which comes with a handy book called the Missal which translates everything) or the Novus Ordo Mass celebrated in a traditional way - ad orientem rather than versus populum, with Gregorian chant and traditional polyphonic music instead of modern music, and traditional vestments and incense, the “bells and smells”, pack a full house on Sundays, especially since Traditiones Custodes. Likewise with the more traditional Anglican and Lutheran churches.

To be honest, I can't see why there is this reflexive reference back to old traditions. It sounds very much like the problem with Rabbinic Judaism, which was so transfixed on the old Law that they could not see past it to Jesus' New Covenant--his sacrifice, his priesthood, and his being the ultimate Temple of God?

Old styles of music may have emerged with the limited technology of the time, or with different social circumstances. The modern world should have its own forms of worship, assuming it is real and reverential.

Of course, you may rightly assume there should be much Scripture in the worship. But there has been--certainly from my own experience. I sang more Scriptural songs with my Charismatic/Pentecostal friends than I had in all the years I was raised singing from Lutheran hymnals! We're to sing with "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs." There is a great potential variety in this!

We sang from the Psalter. We sang songs that others concocted from the Psalms or even from the Prophets. I had a 2 album set of praise/worship songs done by a couple from Australia with every song derived from the Scriptures. I don't think making the cover of this album ancient Christian art will improve on the spirituality one bit!

It's funny that you think my circles are less spiritual because they lack the old religious formalism and style of music, while I think of your religious tradition as outdated and spiritually lacking precisely because of the adherence to rigid formalism and legal structure. I wonder where the truth lies?

Mind you, I'm not passing any judgment on you personally. You seem like a nice enough fellow, and pretty aware of all these movements. My experience is more limited than yours, and yet can my spiritual discernment be so wrong? Perhaps...

Oompa Loompa · Sep 11, 2025

Zaha Torte said:
This tragedy has nothing to do with guns - but people feeling justified in committing acts of violence and murder due to nothing but disagreement.

What you said is truly vile. You need Jesus.

Like I said, this is what "democracy" looks like.

Douggg · Sep 11, 2025

RandyPNW said:
Dan 8.25 simply states that Antiochus 4 (in my view) opposes God, who is the "Prince of Princes." Specifically, I think it is a reference to God's Word, who later would come to be revealed as Jesus. The terms presents God as if He was above all princes in the time of Antiochus 4.

"stand up" in Daniel 8:25 is a phrase meaning makes war against. Antiochus IV did not attempt to make war against God.

And the term in Daniel 8:25 is Prince of princes.

So that is two items in Daniel 8 that eliminates Antiochus IV from being the little horn of Daniel 8.
1. time of the end
2. stands up against the Prince of princes.

Also the little horn of Daniel 8 is the same little horn of Daniel 7.

The 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 fits within the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. The animal sacrifices will begin again and 2300 days later Jesus will return.

I don't think we are going to agree on who the little horn in Daniel 8 is. So let's just agree to disagree ?

Yttrium · Sep 11, 2025

Shame on Matthew Dowd. The vile murderer has full responsibility here, not Kirk's words or deeds.

Oompa Loompa · Sep 11, 2025

durangodawood said:
American children are shot to death quite regularly in school or even church.... But now a line has been crossed.

Black children are shot to death quite regularly in schools by other black children.

RandyPNW · Sep 11, 2025

Douggg said:
Randy, the time of the end little horn person in Daniel 8 will stand up against the Princes of princes.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The Prince of princes is Jesus. The little horn in his beast king stage will attempt to make war on Jesus at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns.

Antiochus IV does not fit Daniel 8:25.

I understand you think that Antiochus 4 does not fit Dan 8.25. But from my pov it easily fits. Not only does it fit, but it seems a required interpretation.

Dan 8.25 simply states that Antiochus 4 (in my view) opposes God, who is the "Prince of Princes." Specifically, I think it is a reference to God's Word, who later would come to be revealed as Jesus. The terms presents God as if He was above all princes in the time of Antiochus 4.

I've already shown you why I think Dan 8 is about the Greek Kingdom. I don't think there can be any question about that. Relying on the term "Prince of Princes" may seem relevant to you. But to me, it is not. It may theorized, but it simply doesn't fit in view of the direct identification with the Greek Kingdom.

Dan 8.19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

Please note that "in the time of wrath" is connected with the destruction of this "master of intrigue," which is evidently associated with Antiochus 4. This happens in the "latter part of their reign," ie in the last days of the 4 kingdoms emerging from Greece, prior to the rise of Rome, the final Kingdom.

Carl Emerson · Sep 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
collectively they were infallible

He inspired them to write infallable scripture, but they were imperfect - as Jesus said
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Carl Emerson · Sep 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
This is true, but do not forget - God is infinitely loving - God’s wrath is not a mood he gets into, for Scripture assures us of the principle of Divine Immutability - God, being eternal, does not change and is not mercurial. This is said even of Jesus Christ, our Lord God and Savior, who is like His Father and the Holy Spirit in all respects except relationally and in terms of his having become incarnate as a man, where we are assured that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

What this means, according to the early church Fathers, but really only the Eastern churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East) teach this in a consistent way, is that the wrath of God is the experience of the consuming fire of God’s love by someone who is opposed to God and hates God and refuses His uncreated grace. That is why the Orthodox Church focuses on preaching the Gospel in a way that promotes repentance and alignment with God, so that we are not burned by the fire of God’s love but rather like the Burning Bush are undamaged by proximity to His presence.

Indeed the Fathers insist that since He is infinitely merciful, the Outer Darkness is a final mercy for those who refuse Him - since being in the luminous presence of God in the New Jerusalem would be an unbearable torment to these people. St. John Chrysostom pointed out that the worst possible punishment would be the realization of what one had excluded oneself from (the bliss of the life of the world to come) through sin.

That is why the church must stress the need for people to repent in this life, lest they are, for their own good, eternally excluded from the life of the world to come and instead wallow in suffering in undying darkness, eaten by the undying worms of the memory of their own sin, consumed by malice and regret and resentment and hatred for God. Because the reality of Hell is far more terrible than the caricature of demons with pitchforks (indeed so too is the reality of demons, who are around us constantly; pneumatic beings, ruled by the Prince of Power of the Air, actively plotting new ways of bringing about our downfall every second of the day.

God have mercy, in the name of Thine only begotten Son Jesus Christ, send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us, and under his direction, conduct all of Thy heavenly host in defense of us against the Evil One, and forgive us our own sins, which are equally repulsive to Thee, but grant us instead through Thy infinite grace a spirit of repentance, love, chastity, obedience, mercy, reverence and charity.

Yes, He is infinitely loving, and the fear of Him is a friend that seals our salvation. Jer 32:40.

7thKeeper · Sep 11, 2025

rjs330 said:
I dont know if tgey are inherently violent or not. But you do have about 5% of the population committing 50% of the violent crime.

It doesn't help your case when you start pulling numbers out of thin air.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
He has a serious mental disorder and he has been violent in the past and brandished a weapon...yes lets release him...

What does the law say? I highly doubt the court has the power force people into care just willy nilly. I don't remember from this thread if the call was a felony or a misdemeanor case, but I doubt the court has the power to do that unless there was violance in THIS case. They can't convict or do something solely based on previous cases, it has to be relevant to what's in front of them at the moment.

Oompa Loompa · Sep 11, 2025

GoldenBoy89 said:
People have lost their minds.

Conservatives have been saying that for years.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2025

RandyPNW said:
If you want to limit all biblical prophecy to eschatology then I suppose you don't want any discussion as to whether your interpretations *belong* in the eschatology forum? Go ahead and apply Jesus' 1st Coming to the 2nd Coming, and forbid anybody from questioning that "because it's the eschatology forum." Is that where you want to hide?

I'm very much interested in the eschatology of the Bible. But I need freedom to explain what prophecies belong to eschatology and what don't. Otherwise, only you get to decide what is acceptable as "eschatology" and what isn't.

I could easily say, for that matter, that use of your version of Dan 8 does *not* belong in an eschatology forum. Do you really want to go there?

Randy, the time of the end little horn person in Daniel 8 will stand up against the Princes of princes.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The Prince of princes is Jesus. The little horn in his beast king stage will attempt to make war on Jesus at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns.

Antiochus IV does not fit Daniel 8:25.

Oompa Loompa · Sep 10, 2025

Valletta said:
BREAKING: Matthew Dowd Fired from MSNBC For Vile Comments Blaming Charlie Kirk For Assassination | The Gateway Pundit | by Cristina Laila

MSNBC fired far-left political commentator Matthew Dowd on Wednesday evening for his vile comments about Charlie Kirk.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

MSNBC did the right thing here, this is a good sign. Conservatives have been urging people to pull back on the hatred and violent rhetoric.

Is this what "Democracy" looks like?

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

Dan Perez said:
AND I left my bible at work and in. Isa 2:4.

# 1 And HE SHALL JUDGE // SAPAL. is a verb in. the QAL , in. the PERECT TENSE , in. the Singular

# 2 AMONG //. BAYIN , is. a Proposition

# 3. THE NATIONS //. GOLY. , IS. A DEFINITE ARTICLE. , in. the Plural in. at the ABSOLUTE

# 4 AND SHALL REBUKE. //. YAKAH. , is. a vet in. the HIPHIL. , in. terms of PERFECT TENSE , in the Singular

# 5. MANY. // RAB , is a PLURAL in. the ABSOLUTE

# 6. PEOPLE // AM. , is a PERPOSITION. , in. the PLURAL. is an. ABSOLUTE

Maybe will say more as I have work to. do and will answer more later tonight or tomorrow.

dan p

Good scripture there for the millennium. Compare Micah 4: 1 - 3.

No hurry, I enjoy a good discussion with someone who knows a lot of truth and is honest in their replies.

rjs330 · Sep 10, 2025

durangodawood said:
It's what I've observed. That's why it's a post.

Although, I wouldn't be too surprised if you're correct and after a few news cycles people move on as if it was just another day in America.

What line are you talking about? You need to clarify what you meant with that remark. Whats different now?

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
Yes, He knows. We don't. The Father knows. We don't.

No amount of calendars or human evidence, human reasoning or deduction, will change what Jesus said very definitively.

You can't and won't know.

Only the Father knows.

To claim otherwise is to claim that you know more than Jesus Christ and are equal in knowledge to the Father. You are not. I am not. We are not.

Please pray on this with me because I believe we have normalized talking about the second coming, as though we have the authority and knowledge which is the Father's alone, which is in grievous error.

Remember, Adam and Eve thought they knew better. Cain thought he knew better. Satan thought he knew better.

There is no good outcome in thinking we are smarter than the Father.

Hi CC,

I hear your concern, however I believe the Head of the Body does give indication as to when He will come for us.

`...exhorting (warning & encouraging) one another, and so much the more AS YOU SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

rjs330 · Sep 10, 2025

Chesterton said:
MSNBC OUTDOES ITSELF!

In some truly Pulitzer Prize deserving reporting, we learn that:

1. the shooter may have been a Kirk supporter firing off a gun in happy celebration of Kirk being there;

2. Trump may use this assassination as justification for sending troops into Orem, Utah as he did in D.C.; and

3. if you have awful thoughts and express them with awful words you should expect awful actions.

Truly despicable people.

rjs330 · Sep 10, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
...not to mention.

As much as this has to scare other conservative political activists, progressive political activists will likely being reigning in their appearances and presentations as well due to fear of retaliation attacks.

So whoever this assassin was, they did a disservice to their own tribe as well.

Not as far as Ive seen. They may grab some extra security, but Ive heard a few who are standing up and saying they are not going to give in and will actually be more involved with public appearances and not less.

I do fear retaliation, but im not sure who on the left someone might decide to go after. The left really doeant have anyone like Kirk that I know of.

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