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ViaCrucis · Sep 4, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Half siblings.

It's only when you want to put a doctrine before what the bible says (IE Mary's perpetual virginity) that you get something like "oh they're not blood related" or "oh they're 2nd cousins" John the Baptist was Jesus' cousin and he is not referred to by the onlookers as Jesus' "brother" but James is.

a plain reading, after having read the first couple chapters of Matthew, would indicate that they'd be half siblings, having Mary as their mother and Joseph as their Father while Jesus had Mary as His mother and the Holy Spirit as His Father.

If you don't take extrabiblical teachings/doctrines into play, that is the conclusion you come to. Forcing a doctrine into the bible is probably not the best way to go.

Except that you are the one forcing your beliefs onto the Bible. I'm not forcing anything, did you not pay attention to the fact that I said I don't know?

My position is I don't know. Because the Bible doesn't say.

The only person here imposing their beliefs onto the Bible here is you.

Scripture doesn't say they were half-siblings. That's you saying that.

A plain reading says that while Mary was pregnant, she and Joseph weren't intimate. It says nothing about what happened after. You have to add your own assumptions to get anything more than that.

A plain reading says that Jesus had siblings, but does not tell us the precise relationship between Jesus and His siblings. Were they half siblings? Maybe. Were they step-siblings? Maybe. Were they cousins? Maybe.

The Greek word is ambiguous. And we know it is, because it even calls Christians "brothers" even though we are not (necessarily) biologically related, even though this includes both men and women. We are brothers, in Christ, because of our adoption by the Father. When we are called "brothers" it does not mean we are blood-related, it means our union together into the Household of God the Father through His only-begotten Son.

An adelphos, a brother, can be a full sibling, it can be a half-sibling, it can be a step-sibling, it can be figurative (close friends can be called "brothers"), it has a range of meanings. This is obvious from how the word itself is used; and this isn't weird because we do the same thing with the English word "brother". So this isn't even a foreign concept, it's one we are all familiar with.

The question, fundamentally, is who precisely were Jesus' brothers and sisters, were they the children of Mary and Joseph? Maybe. But the text doesn't tell us this.

And we can't just ignore ancient opinions of the Church as though they don't matter at all. Those same ancient opinions are, for example, why we call the Gospel of Matthew the Gospel of Matthew. It's why we have a New Testament at all. So rejecting, as a matter of principle, all extra-biblical information is not piety, it's foolishness. Instead such things should be measured, considered, tested; not assumed but given adequate weight based on merit.

If you want to do away with all extra-biblical information and context then you have to throw your whole Bible away. And that's clearly not something anyone wants to do, so take a more full measured and consistent approach and study, and be humble, and weigh things.

You are free to reach your opinion that that they were half-siblings. You are not free to claim, dogmatically, that they are; because you do not have the authority to add to God's word.

-CryptoLutheran

Benaiah468 · Sep 4, 2025

essentialsaltes said:
Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan
TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Israel is in discussions with South Sudan about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from the Gaza Strip to the war-torn East African country, part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas.

That's ethnic cleansing.

In the aftermath of WWII, over 12M Germans were expelled from Eastern Europe between 1945-50. At least 3.5M of them came from the Sudetenland (modern-day Czechia). Imagine, if instead of being resettled in Germany, they were denied German citizenship and forced to live in refugee camps for generations. Over the years those refugees start calling themselves the "Sudeten" nation and claim ownership over the Sudetenland but also the entire Czechia. Due to natural population growth, the "Sudeten" nation would now number over 10M, exceeding the population of Czechia.

Yet that is precisely what happened with the "Palestinians". The "Palestinians" regarded themselves as Arabs or "Syrians" until at least 1960s. They were content to be ruled by Jordan and Egypt between 1948-67. However, the Arab states (except Jordan) explicitly refused to integrate "Palestinians". The Arab League Resolution 1547 (9 Mar 1959) explicitly ordered its member states not to give "Palestinians" citizenship, in order to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their rights to return to their "homeland". As opposed to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR), which resettled 50M refugees in the last half-century, the Arab states set up up a separate agency, UNRWA, whose mandate doesn't include resettlement at all. UNRWA then repeatedly changed the definition of "refugee" to accommodate more "Palestinians" with each passing year.

Of course, the circumstances of the 1947-48 war in "Palestine" differ from those of the German refugees. Unlike the 12M Germans who were explicitly forced to leave, historians (e.g. Benny Moris) assert that only 10-15% of the "Palestinians" were directly expelled by the IDF forces. Another 15-25% were ordered to leave by the Arab leaders, and the rest fled out of a general fear of hostilities. While at least 2M German civilians died in the process, the total civilian death count in 1947-48 was ~800. Despite losing the war in the early months, the Israeli leadership didn't have a centralised plan to expel "Palestinians", and many were allowed to remain, now making up 21% of its population. However, overall the analogy still holds.

DaisyDay · Sep 4, 2025

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
And yet it was deemed EXCESSIVE. Well no one thought the judgement would be erased so verdict might be reversed on appeal too...

No one thought the judgement would be erased but nearly everyone thought it would be reduced which is pretty standard. Trump made verified false statements, i.e. fraud. Why should that be dismissed?

The Liturgist · Sep 4, 2025

public hermit said:
Great, until we who are still in the flesh become triumphant, "We believe..."

Except that ignores the fact that some communication does occur between the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant, particularly in the Orthodox church where the saints are very much with us and actively do things in the world to help the faithful in the service of God the Holy and Undivided Trinity.

timf · Sep 4, 2025

The objective of a Buddhist is to seek enlightenment. so the God is light reference would work well.

Most Buddhist practice seems to concern itself with meditation to suppress desires.

Christians have access through Christ to wisdom, truth, and a transformative Spirit, but seldom are aware of it or how to take advantage of it.

Often Christian practice is trying to exercise control over the flesh by means of the flesh like legalism.

https://christianpioneer.com/videos/video%20tract%20christianity%20comp.mp4

essentialsaltes · Sep 4, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
The what?

More background

essentialsaltes said:
More background and comment.

42 Percent Of The World Is Buying China’s Anti-U.S. Narrative
Most Americans have probably never heard of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. But 42 percent of the world’s population are members of this Anti-US club. As the organization meets in Tianjin this weekend, Xi and Putin are rehearsing an anti-U.S. narrative to divide the U.S. from important allies and partners. Xi and Putin used the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit to tell a coherent fiction:The U.S. and its allies are “militarizing” the Pacific, cyberspace, and outer space. China and Russia are positioning the organization to play a diplomatic and military role that will counter other international organizations that have been traditionally led by the U.S. The U.S. cannot afford to lose the hearts and minds of 42 percent of the world’s population–and must act to counter China and Russia’s dangerous information warfare and legal warfare.

The SCO was established in its current form in 2001, as a security cooperation organization. Its members are China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, India, Pakistan, Iran, and Belarus. Myanmar has recently expressed interest in joining the group. Turkey–a NATO ally–participated in the summit, along with a total of 20 foreign leaders and 10 heads of international organizations.

The U.S. cannot afford to ignore China-led initiatives like the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. U.S. allies and partners are increasingly joining China-led organizations and initiatives. The U.S. must work to counter China’s false stories and to establish its own narrative of being a guarantor of security, freedom, and prosperity for all nations.

OK, but before all the freedom and security jazz, here's a 25% tariff on all your nation's products.

peter2 · Sep 4, 2025

Clare73 said:
The destiny of the earth is to be destroyed by fire (2 Pe 3:11).

Actually, Clare, i don't see any link between this piece of Scripture, and the fact earth is seemingly subduing mankind, through cataclysms, whereas God prescribed men to subdue earth

Strong in Him · Sep 4, 2025

Valletta said:
Yes, but the reality is that it's harder to make the case if your church is the 7th Reformed United Congregational Church of Belize.

Why?

Was the church in Jerusalem - which was founded before the church in Rome - superior to it? Or the church in Philippi superior or more authentic than the church in Thessalonica?
And what about places like Damascus, where Saul preached as soon as he was converted? Or Laodicea, who also received a letter from Paul, Colossians 4:16? We don't hear about them, but there were probably churches there too.

THE Church is all believers. Those who trust in the Lord Jesus as their Saviour and are being made into his image by his Spirit, 2 Corinthians 3:18, are his bride. There is no "case to be made" by anyone.

essentialsaltes · Sep 4, 2025

essentialsaltes said:
"The line is that I'm a dictator,” Trump said. “But I stop crime. So a lot of people say, ‘You know, if that's the case, I'd rather have a dictator.’” The president then added that he is “not a dictator.”

just 14% of Americans say they would approve of "the U.S. having a dictator if it led to much lower levels of crime”; 69% say they would disapprove. Even among Republicans, only 27% say they would approve of the hypothetical scenario Trump described.

Only 27%?!?

timothyu · Sep 4, 2025

essentialsaltes said:
I think it's clearly a moral evil to pass along some outrageous meme or news story without doing some vetting of it to determine its reliability.

You mean like those who vote along party lines rather than the best option for the problems at hand, or choose a car for looks/prestige rather than reliability?

The Liturgist · Sep 4, 2025

public hermit said:
Firstly, the church or "Church" doesn't know anything.

That’s not true. As the Body of Christ, the entire Church, which includes the Church Triumphant, includes those from whom faith has been transformed into certainty.

The Liturgist · Sep 4, 2025

public hermit said:
As I've stated before, any pursuit of unity between many different Christians is going to have to be more general.

That requires compromise of doctrine and reductionism, which the Orthodox will not accept, and which also we don’t need to accept since there exist schisms that were the result of miscommunication or political factors, and these schisms account for the majority of Christians, so those with actual doctrinal differences from the Orthodox that are material represent only a minority of liturgical Christians, and aliturgical Christians who reject sacramentality we are not equipped to assist.

I would also note that the Orthodox Church is also the only major denomination that entirely rejects the idea of doctrinal development and regards its deposit of faith as pure, apostolic and immutable, so in a sense we are the church that everyone else will have to adjust themselves to (indeed the immutable character of Orthodoxy is largely why I joined, because I could be comfortable that the sacrament of matrimony or other essential Christian beliefs would never be compromised).

The desire to preserve Holy Tradition is so strong among Orthodox that occasionally people less well versed in the history of our church make mistakes in their zeal which cause headaches, but this is a failsafe design, since we err on the side of the status quo rather than Pietistic embrace of innovation and doctrinal pluralism.

public hermit said:
We have two creeds that are widely accepted.

Actually, only one, the Nicene, unless you were referring to the version of the Nicene Creed with the filioque and the version without favored by the Eastern churches. This is a complex issue and one of frustration because the filioque is a violation of the canons of the Council of Ephesus, but people are attached to it and wrongly believe it is a defense against errors - it was implemented in Spain as a misguided response to an outbreak of Adoptionism. However some Orthodox have been tolerant of it, such as St. Maximos the Confessor. Thus the potential exists for reconciliation without the complete removal of the Creed. Additionally our recent success in persuading the Lutheran World Federation to drop the filioque is great, but its also a hollow victory when the ELCA tolerates parishes such as “herchurch” in San Francisco, a parish whose beliefs, as far as I can tell, are not in accord with the CF Statement of Faith.

That said, by getting the Lutherans to drop the filioque, and many Anglicans, and getting our icons into the altar at Westminster Abbey and other sacred places in the Anglican communion and elsewhere, and getting our hymns such as Phos Hilarion put in the Book of Common Prayer, and even getting Episcopalians to celebrate our liturgy, it seems we can possibly assimilate these churches, which are very problematic, gradually, although I personally would prefer it if we focused on the Confessional Lutherans such as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch with whom we actually agree with on most issues of eucharistic and moral theology. Indeed everything @ViaCrucis writes on CF feels like it could have been ripped from the pages not only of The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, but the pages of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky and other figures who could be regarded as Orthodox hardliners. And I have no doubt that the LCMS, like the Orthodox, will hold the line on human sexuality and other important issues of moral theology where Pietism and Latitudinarianism have led to compromises in other churches - indeed the LCMS was historically regarded as a mainline Lutheran denomination existing in the same space as those synods which merged into ELCA, and actually initiated the development of the controversial 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship. But fortunately they pulled out at the right moment, and had the courage to sack dissenting seminarians from Concordia during the Seminex fiasco.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 4, 2025

public hermit said:
Firstly, the church or "Church" doesn't know anything. Snip.

And you do? Good to know.

wing2000 · Sep 4, 2025

SavedByGrace3 said:
I think it means we dropped 100 but then picked up 600 for a net 500 judges.

As opposed to keeping the 100 existing judges and hiring more immigration judges.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 4, 2025

Hentenza said:
Let me qualify my argument because you are misinterpreting it. My argument is against transubstantiation not against real presence. Your argument above centers on real presence, which is your church’s belief. Scripture teaches that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there.

Incorrect. First, one does not have to accept the dogma of transubstantiation to hold a belief in the bread and wine being the real presence of Christ's very body and blood, given for us to eat and drink. Lutherans and Orthodox take the view that it is a mystery and can not be explained by employing human reason. It just is. Your definition is disregards the historic definition. Christ is omnipresent; but is physically present in the Eucharist.

timothyu · Sep 4, 2025

Grafted In said:
A garage is not a car.

Not in outlook no. But the Kingdom/Will of God is all. It is what Jesus represents. Humans are told to be servants to God and each other. Nothing about partnership in governance.

Strong in Him · Sep 4, 2025

public hermit said:
The first confession was probably just "Jesus is Lord."

Yes, it was the first creed - very daring in a society that proclaimed, "Caesar is Lord".
I believe new Christians were also required to confess/declare it before baptism.

Look at how complicated we've made things since then.

Oompa Loompa · Sep 4, 2025

durangodawood said:
I do believe thats the ethic one should have re gun ownership.

But the wording of the 2A does seem to indicate that any legislation toward responsibility is prohibited. "Shall not be infringed". So any conditions attached to this right would be out of bounds. Scotus disagrees with this plain reading of the words, thankfully.

I dont think so. The right to gun ownership will not be infringed. That doesnt mean people are entitled to irresponsible ownership. People would not be punished for owning a gun, but because their irresponsibly threatens public safety.

essentialsaltes · Sep 4, 2025

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

False premises can lead to false conclusions. Deeply believed false conclusions could potentially lead one to violence, as we've seen.

That said, I agree it's a tough question on whether it is 'wrong' to believe something false. It probably depends on how culpable you are for this state of affairs.

Turning to a more modern specific concern, I think it's clearly a moral evil to pass along some outrageous meme or news story without doing some vetting of it to determine its reliability. Alas, many people have poorly developed critical thinking skills, so are the malfeasors culpable?

Grafted In · Sep 4, 2025

timothyu said:
And you are saying they are not of the Kingdom?

A garage is not a car.

Aseyesee · Sep 4, 2025

childeye 2 said:
There are two opposing images of God/god vying for control of the terms in our psycholinguistics.

God causes a deep sleep, a darkness that light is called out of ...

JustaPewFiller · Sep 4, 2025

fhansen said:
Jesus used tools, which were more sophisticated and better facilitated His carpentry work then tools which were available centuries before Him. Humans have the capacity to learn and increase their knowledge which leads to improvments in living conditons, productivity, etc. The same knowledge can also produce increasingly dangerous products: weapons, chemicals, etc. The knowledge, itself, is inert while human usage of it can result in harm or evil.

That is an excellent point.

@peter2

When I think of "living the hard way" we just have to look to history.
1. The hardest way would be living a hunter / gather society. Where all we have is what we can hunt/kill or gather. I'm going to assume fire is ok.
2. Next hardest would likely be primitive agrarian. No wheel, no herd animals. Probably lots of hunting and gathering still happening.
3. Next would agrarian with some advancements. We have herd animals. We have some tools, the wheel, maybe we have weaving or even a loom. (I'll leave it up to you we can use metal or the tools have to be stone or wood).

Is one of the these 3 what you are envisioning as the "way to live"?
The "easy way" and the "hard way" are honestly too nebulous for me to get my head around. "Easy" and "hard" vary by each person's viewpoint of what is "hard" and what is "easy".

Can you give an example of what a day in your "living the hard way" would be like? ie - Do you have some shelter or sleep under the stars? If you have shelter what it is? What are you wearing and how did you get it? What are you eating and how did you get it?

To give you an example of what I mean by "the hard way" not being concrete enough. I would think living like #3 in my example was "hard". Someone living a hunter/gather life would think #3 on my list was living "easy".

timothyu · Sep 4, 2025

Grafted In said:
You use them interchangeably.

And you are saying they are not of the Kingdom?

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Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan

42 Percent Of The World Is Buying China’s Anti-U.S. Narrative