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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Border Patrol calls for help, Chicago PD does not respond

I’m not defending that quote I’m saying you and @GoldenBoy89 are making light of what happened ito the Jews by comparing it to being deported
Before they were gassed, they were also imprisoned by separating families and causing chaos for children.

Maybe you are also making light of what is happenning to some of these immigrant children.
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Border Patrol calls for help, Chicago PD does not respond

What Trump is saying is intimately related to what he’s doing. He’s expressing an idea we’ve heard before and not from a good source and when you combine that with what his administration is doing to people it starts to paint a very ugly picture. When you combine that with what others like Stephen Miller have expressed and when people see ICE agents acting with impunity and being accountable to no one and the underhanded tactics they’re using the picture really starts to look bad.


The worst part though, isn’t that we have a government doing these things. No. The worst part to me, is all the millions of Americans going along with it or providing cover and hand waving away any concerns like we see in this thread.
This thread is about one law enforcement agency failing to help another one, what we’ve seen is providing cover for it, hand waving and justifying it
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Border Patrol calls for help, Chicago PD does not respond

I’m not here to defend everything Trump says, that’s a fool’s errand
What Trump is saying is intimately related to what he’s doing. He’s expressing an idea we’ve heard before and not from a good source and when you combine that with what his administration is doing to people it starts to paint a very ugly picture. When you combine that with what others like Stephen Miller have expressed and when people see ICE agents acting with impunity and being accountable to no one and the underhanded tactics they’re using the picture really starts to look bad.


The worst part though, isn’t that we have a government doing these things. No. The worst part to me, is all the millions of Americans going along with it or providing cover and hand waving away any concerns like we see in this thread.
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The Schumer Shutdown

You are free to continue to believe agencies and people whom constantly get their predictions wrong. Have a liberal cookie while enjoying the liberal kool-aid.
First - these are not predictions. They're estimates. Estimates are numbers extrapolated from the government plans. It's a spreadsheet - not a crystal ball. If this - then that. Mathematics. If the government actually does what it has signed into law - then we can expect this outcome for the budget.

Second - a war or new pandemic could massively throw out ALL economic models and budgets.

So where does that leave us?

1. If this - then that. Is the program you are receiving so willingly reliable? Moral? To be endorsed?
2. Other real world disruptions are possible - but usually make matters even worse than predicted!


Unless you can find a credible agency that has actually DEBUNKED where this report reads the BBB wrong - then you're in denial and are magic handwaving.

You fulfilled the cookie meme.

You've eaten the cookie, and are replying with cookie filled fluffy assertions, not cold hard facts and data.

"Smell good, don't they!"



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US Citizens detained for hours during massive immigration raid that empties Chicago apartment building in the middle of the night

Lmao… Liberated? How were you being oppressed? Please tell me. I need a good laugh today.
I don't think I said I was liberated, but if I was under constant threat of criminal terrorist gangs, I would feel liberated.

We dont have those where I live, but I would be so angry at my government for allowing it if they were here.
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You cannot serve God and Mammon.

The pattern I see in the NT writings is that it is proper/prudent to pay/support the kingdom workers working in/among/commissioned by your fellowship, but at the same time it's also best to refrain from demanding/suggesting others pay me/my church.

I am trying to suggest that Paying and Supporting are two different things.

A congregation may be operating as a loving community that makes sure the Pastor is not in need.

Another congregation has no idea what the Pastor's needs are and feel it is not their business as it is all taken care of - very unlikely to be a sense of community and family there...
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Ezra Klein: Charlie Kirk was practicing politics the right way

Again, your tacit premise is that novel rule-changing is coming from the right, and that's what it has to do with what you wrote. Your idea that it is the right and not the left that is trying to change the status quo is incorrect. Sports have been segregated between males and females for a long time, and anyone who understands what sport is understands why this segregation should occur. That is the status quo. Now we have a new group (trans) that wants to deviate from that status quo and disregard the nature of competitive sport. They are precisely the ones "trying to change the rules." It is not a new rule that biological males are not allowed to play in female sporting leagues, and this remains true even if such a rule must be made explicit in light of new challenges.
But the new rule changes implemented for this years athletics world championship changed the status quo for the future. People born male had access under certain conditions to compete as women before this year.
Again, there is nothing special about law. No one is disputing the fact that existing laws must be navigated. That is part of the point of arguing over whether some form of discrimination should be illegal. If we make bad law which outlaws a just and good form of discrimination, we will have to navigate that bad law for years to come. The post of yours I replied to was not primarily about law, but rather about school policies:
Yes, but from my experience laws are the major driving forces for making policies.
You were saying, "It isn't unreasonable to demand that students and teachers be treated the same regardless of gender identity or sexuality." The point is that it is unreasonable given that people will construe that demand as requiring, for example, that biological males are able to compete in female sporting leagues.
In which actual case has anti-discrimination laws influenced who eligible to compete in which gender category? Here it is left to the national association for the sport in question. Who in turn has to negotiate with the international association.

Where I live collegiate sports are not a stepping stone for sports development, schools are a not a major part of the sports system and collegiate sports clubs are amateur clubs and not part of the college and university organisation per se. In short, students and teachers have no formal connection to sports at any level.
I haven't generally made points vis-a-vis your own positions, given that I don't know exactly what they are. I have made points against "the left." I don't know whether you agree or disagree with the points I've made, but part of my point is that your notion that it is not unreasonable to demand non-discrimination falls into the broader naivete I am trying to illustrate. You are assuming via petitio principii that it must be good that zero discrimination occurs along the lines of gender identity or sexuality, and that is a symptom of the broader problem I have been trying to illustrate.
No, I was trying to argue the point that the education system isn't necessarily trying to speed up any process but might only be trying to position itself in accordance to anti-discrimination laws. I've been in meeting where such things are discussed and the question is always what laws do we have to take into account.
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Border Patrol calls for help, Chicago PD does not respond

...and apparently poisoning the blood of your country. Hey, you'd think that the fact that they are here illegally could be justification in itself for proposing that some of them are deported. You really don't need any more justification than that. And I mean you personally. So who does? Who are those people that Trump is talking to when he uses language like that? Why does he think they need such comments?

You have to know that it doesn't reflect well on the US when there's someone in the WH using language like that. The rest of the world is like 'What? He said what?'

It's indefensible. And it's not a one off either, is it. It's par for the course.
I’m not here to defend everything Trump says, that’s a fool’s errand
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Border Patrol calls for help, Chicago PD does not respond

I’m not going to defend what Trump said, it’s indefensible but it doesn’t change the fact that people are being deported because they’re here illegally...
...and apparently poisoning the blood of your country. Hey, you'd think that the fact that they are here illegally could be justification in itself for proposing that some of them are deported. You really don't need any more justification than that. And I mean you personally. So who does? Who are those people that Trump is talking to when he uses language like that? Why does he think they need such comments?

You have to know that it doesn't reflect well on the US when there's someone in the WH using language like that. The rest of the world is like 'What? He said what?'

It's indefensible. And it's not a one off either, is it. It's par for the course.
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Illegal Immigration

STYLE: And the violence - the teenager daughter - the masks? How about identifying themselves properly and NOT wearing masks? How about street gangs dressing up like that to kidnap people? We're talking about Stormtrooper tactics. Funny how Republicans were anti-mask during Covid when it really mattered - but PRO MASK when the Stormtroopers arrive!
This seems a bit hysterical.
1. They do identify themselves as required by policy and law. To bad if you don't like it.
2. They are allowed to wear masks. For their own protection from the scum who wish to dox and threaten them and their families. To bad if you don't like it.
3. They aren't street gangs nor arw they kidnapping people. Making lawful arrests and detentions are legal and have been for MANY MANY years. To bad if you don't like it.
4. Calling them storm troopers is helping to get them assaulted and one of the reasons they have to wear masks. To bad if you dont like it, but your rhetoric is part of the problem.

Masks in this case and COVID is apples and oranges and irrelevant.
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

No they are using different quality metrics, from memory the Artifact Foundation uses the geometric mean of the median of circularity and concentricity and Maximus Energy uses the sum of mean slice rmse and mean deviation from slice circularity.
So if they both find precision what then. The Artifact Foundation refers to Maximus and says this is the best way and an industry standard.
Your own latest rferecned journal supports argues that while potters wheels were not present, a turntable or a turning device was.
That's another way of saying a potters wheel lol. There was no wheel full stop. If there was they would have used it for their pottery which they say they used the coil and slab method because they had no wheel.
Perhaps, but without provenance it is unknown.
So what about the vases that have good provenance at the Petrie museum that test in the precise class.
It is just what you would expect to find in some vases.
This is circular reasoning. They are precise because they are precise. Its not what we would expect. Its an unusual level of precision. All sorts of levels of precision as the tests show could have been produced from handmade to rudimentary lathing that is less precise.

To achieve this high level would have taken specialist machining that would have to have been chosen as opposed to less precise machines. Or an extraordinary efforts to rejig and ensure that precision was made. Its completely unnecessary as precision of that level was not impostant.
Was the OG vase first analysed in 2017? If so in 8 years, they haven't managed to put together, submit and publish a single article. This is not something to be proud of.
Another logical fallacy. Other science has taken far longer. So it must not be good science or good scientists. Does not follow. Being something that was never done and resisted by mainstream it took time to gether interest and funding. And the vases. Remember the museums only just allowed tests in 2023. Most private owners were not interested or didn't want to use their vases.
Of course it would, how can you draw any conclusions about the reception by academic archaeologists from this thread?
Ah they claim to be representing them as 'real science' lol by tarring these tests and researchers as whacko. There are plenty of articles mentioning how mainstream archeologists are biased against such alternative ideas. Of even measuring for precision in vases as a useless enterprise as they already know how these works were made.

The archaeologist fighting claims about an advanced lost civilisation

The Society for American Archaeology (SAA) wrote a strongly worded letter to Netflix (https://tinyurl.com/bdfnetrw) demanding that the show be described as “science fiction” rather than a documentary and reiterated most of the negative comments about the show flying across the internet at the time. Mainstream experts on the archaeology of the sites described in the series or the geological context of the Younger Drayas have since offered pointed critiques of Hancock’s assertions (e.g., https://tinyurl.com/yt44yheu).

Any papers done on such advanced tech and knowledge would be immediated rejected and not even allowed to be published by any mainstream archeological journal lol. So all this insistence on peer review by the very gatekeeper skeptics is impossible anyway. So just deal with the evidence directly from the testers and the platforms with the results.

This is what they said about Climate change and Quantum physics and other ideas and they ended up being true.
Metrology is the scientific study of measuring, all instances of taking measurements is not metrology.
Ok why the semantics. What exactly are you questioning then. If I take a ruler, tape measure or lazer light for which they now use instead of retractable tape measures. I measure the length of a beam or room its not going to put out subjectively different measures. They will all be the same. JUst the lazer light will be more precise.

So long as you calibrate the equipment and know how to use them and use them properly then the numbers don't lie. How is this hard to understand. You are acting like there is some subjective bias that will change the numbers.
Maybe they were made in modern times with a lathe, how would you tell the difference?
This is the other part of the tests where they actually do make fakes or obtain fakes for comparison. Fakes are usually smoother inside and out and don't leave those accidental or unfinished marks that genuine ones have. They are usually slightly lighter and don't look ancient as far as wear, chips, and Patina ect.

Adam Young actually got a Chinese stone manufacturer with over 100 years of experience to replicate a predynastic vase and they found it too hard and complicated to do. Its not easy and thats why I say that mid to early 20th century tech would not be available and if so would be at NASA levels which back street fakers would not have.
By the same criteria none of the 19 Petrie vases investigated by Maximus Energy were in his precise class.
I am continually correcting these claims only to have them repeated and then a new one already addressed is made lol.

The ‘precise’ class includes the three modern stone vases, which were machined and polished on a lathe, and 11 objects from Matt Beall’s collection.
Not the same quality criteria.
So if I use a tape measure and get say 4.51cam and a lazer light at 4.511 how is that then showing some different measure because of a different method. Its just a more accurate measure of the same measure. Its not as though each different method is showing a completely different measure. This is more red herrings.

Besides the same method has been repreated and the same results are found. But even the difference between some methods in the light scanning tech is only a matter of microns and all land on the same findings by vary degrees of microns. Your creating a false dilemma.
Not the same quality criteria.
Another fallacy. Just deal with the numbers.
The surface deviations are best described by a mm scale.
No they are not, another falsehood. The circularity for example in some places is as near perfect as 0.003mm. Into the micron level. The perpendicularity, paralellism and concentricity is of similar levels in places. The average for these vases is in the micron levels.

Class Averages
The ‘PRECISE’ class average errors are as follows:
● <> = 1.3 thousandths of an inch (0.03 mm);
● <> = 1.3 thousandths of an inch (0.03 mm).


Such surprising precision indicates a highly advanced manufacturing technique consistent with machining on a lathe as the modern lathe-made vases ‘M1’, ‘M2’, and ‘M3’ fall into this class.

On the other hand, the ‘IMPRECISE’ vases in Matt Beall’s collection are characterized by the following class averages:
● = 12 thousandths of an inch (0.3 mm);
● <> = 23 thousandths of an inch (0.5 mm).

This manufacturing quality is indicative of a much less advanced manufacturing technique consistent with the ‘stone and stick’ technology, as the vases ‘O1’ and ‘O2’ that were purposefully made using primitive tools fall into this category.


Just like the Atifact Research Foundation. Notice even the title, 3D scanning vases to the micron level of precision. Its all in the name lol. Around 8 vases fell into the precise modern machining class at the micron level. I linked this evidence earlier and you have ignored it. THe results start around the 38.20 minute mark. But just previous it mentions how the classes are determined as an industry standard.

1759810806288.png


1759810540615.png


We 3D Scanned Egypt's Oldest Vases | Micron-Level .
I think I'm done, you referencing articles without reading them, makes me think you are either trolling or you think your viewpoint is worth lying for. It's not a good basis for further discussions. I'll see you in a thread about some other topic.
Yes I agree, It gets too much fixated on one specific issue and it seems to be going in circles. I suggest you do a deep dive into this whole topic and discover. It may be wrong but you may learn something as well. Its the only way.

But ultimately you are right. The only way to really quell the skepticism of those who still disagree is for more data and testing of vases such as those in museums where the provenance cannot be questioned.
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Why we Christians still have to struggle with sins?

I agree with all those verses but those verses doesn't over rule keeping the Commandments, Statues and Judgement of God. Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. You wouldn’t know what sin was if there was no law.

Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Rightly dividing the truth starts from Genesis to Revelation.
Do you not read my posts? Have I spoken against Gods law ever?

Why does Christ’s death on the cross uphold the law? Here’s why:

Man broke God’s law and, as a result, cut himself off from God and came under the curse of the law—eternal death.

God could not break His own law by simply brushing this under the rug. The consequences of sin had to fall upon mankind. Because God’s law is immutable, forgiveness was impossible apart from justice. But God had a plan, and it involved the incarnation of Christ, who bore the results of sin in our place. Thus, God can and does forgive without violating His own law. In this way, the law is upheld.

Because Jesus bore the curse of the law, we are no longer under the law but under Christ, our schoolmaster. The law remains and always will, but we are not under its condemnation.

In order to be saved by the law, one would have to keep it perfectly from cradle to grave. Those who try will fail and perish, but those who trust in the Lord will be saved.


References​

  • The Law and Sin: Romans 3:23 — “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
  • The Curse of the Law: Galatians 3:10, 13 — “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us…”
  • The Immutability of God’s Law: Matthew 5:18 — “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
  • God’s Justice and Mercy: Romans 3:25–26 — God put Christ forward “to demonstrate His righteousness… so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
  • The Law as a Schoolmaster: Galatians 3:24–25 — “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
  • Salvation by Faith, Not Works: Ephesians 2:8–9 — “For by grace you have been saved through faith… not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
  • Perfect Obedience Required by the Law: James 2:10 — “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”
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Why Judgment Day?

Does judgment day apply to those who are saved or only the unsaved?
Hi CC,

Good question. Jesus has taken the judgment for those in the Body of Christ and for the Old Testament Saints, both groups are in heaven. (Heb. 12: 23) Thus the judgment Day at the end of time is for all those who either have turned away from Jesus or have never heard of Him. Those who have never heard of Jesus but have honored God by their right actions/works will be able to go upon the new earth. The others will all go to the lake of fire. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)
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You cannot serve God and Mammon.

The difference I like to express is that Pastoring is a career option that some are encouraged to attain to - you know how it goes - 'don't touch the Lord's anointed' - 'His word is God's Word to you' - 'The Labourer is worthy of his hire' - His Harley is God's blessing' - when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Pastors are paid to pastor.

This seems a far cry from ministries being supported by the congregation as there is no relationship between the quality of the spiritual ministry and the support received. It is a set contract, rather than an expression of love from the heart of the flock.

Personally I don't see the biblical justification for such a role being a professional. Rather the opposite.
The pattern I see in the NT writings is that it is proper/prudent to pay/support the kingdom workers working in/among/commissioned by your fellowship, but at the same time it's also best to refrain from demanding/suggesting others pay me/my church.

Although I hope every pastor preaches in line with God's will and the Bible, I would never equate the pastor's words with God's words. Only for a prophet I could do so as a prophets are supposed to literally speak God's words without mixing in anything of their own.

Paying a wage to others besides a professional pastor may create extra complications: where to draw the line between (large nr of) volunteers and the (few) paid admin staff? For tasks that need a full/day-time presence it's challenging as apart from retirees or wives with a bread-winning husband, people need to make ends meet.
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Illegal Immigration

(When you do magic hand waving, try to remember which hand holds the secret or you'll give the trick away.)
Flawed study. Not enough studies and no systematic reviews.
Remember my request for evidence?
Remember my refusal to do that anymore?
I'm talking about how you feel, and how you write.
What would you want the country to do?
Why do you vote the way you do?
I think we should have immigration laws and we should expect people to abide by them.
But I still maintain that justifying Trump's dog-whistling to Proud Boys

Off topic.
and with them our relationship between God's people (the church) and the relevant authorities of the day (the state).

because while we are not under the theocratic rule of the OT - we are under its moral obligations.
We are as individuals. Scripture is written to us as individuals and not to tell the secular state how they should run their country. Unless you are wanting the state to outlaw all sexual sin, gossip, lying and such. Or do you just think we should only push for part of scriptural morality and not all of it?
That group outside your borders that you do not like
Who said I dont like them? Since when does wanting people to follow the law equal not liking them?
To Americans it could very well be the kind hearted immigrant family who DID in fact just flee their country because of the drug gangs extortion demands now moving to stealing their teenage daughters.
Sure and rhey should go through the process. You ate ignoring the fact that the vast majority don't meet the criteria.
Yes you should! Both conscience and law require that you apply the international convention of human rights and well being of refugees diligently and carefully.
I agree.
Those who respect reality LET their minds be changed by data!
You should know that data can be manipulated. And how data is collected is also important. And data changes. I prefer to look at all rhe things. A prime example is the data that often surrounded transgenderism.
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Federal Election Commission down to 2 Commissioners; 4 needed for Quorum; FEC can’t enforce campaign finance laws, formalize investigations

"political actors who are inclined to be aggressive in their interpretations of law are not going to get any pushback."
Feature, not a bug.

-- A2SG, aiding and abetting, the new SOP.....
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Border Patrol calls for help, Chicago PD does not respond

That’s why I said they didn’t start with gas chambers. Right now we’re in the scapegoat phase. Blame a group for our problems and try to get the public to turn against them as a whole. It’ll take a bit before people are more comfortable with more drastic solutions. You can say we’re not there yet but plenty of people who’ve lived it are seeing the parallels.
The article you posted said that the Jews who were “deported “ were rounded up and killed.
You’re using the slippery slope fallacy (that liberals love to point out)
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Eschatalogical views and the question of history

Thanks again. You see him as Amillennial?
I saw that in this statement in the review about Konig:

"The second of these
chapters includes among other things discussion of Jesus' dominion
over the powers (vanquished, but not finally), the millennium (taken
as the equivalent of the present Kingdom of God), the relation between
Christ and the Spirit (functional identity), the future of Israel (none),
and Antichrist (always present)."


When the Millennium is takene as the equivalent of the present Kingdom of God, that indicates to me he is an Amillennialist. Amills view the current age as a symbolic "Millennium," in which Satan is bound (with respect to our Salvatiton) and the Kingdom is somehow mysteriously present. The sense of a current "dominion over the powers" in the present age also sounds like Amillennialism.

The fact he sees "none" of the "future of Israel" indicates he may be a Reform Theologian who denies Futurism and engages in "Replacement Theology," seeing in the international Church the fulfillment of a metaphorical "Israel." His sense that the Antichrist is not future, but "always present" also suggests he is opposed to Futurism. If he focuses primarily on Christ during his earthly ministry, then his focus may indeed be more on the 1st century than on historical prophetic fulfillment, and that would be Preterism rather than the kind of historicism that characterized some of Reform Theology.

Keep in mind I know nothing of the man. I'm just guessing, based on the review you sent me.
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