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SuperCow · 2025-12-16T10:02:30-0600

Mark Quayle said:
Mark Quayle said:
Even YOU believe God is the creator of all that is. If he is that Creator, and if there is sin, then he caused that there be sin.

Finally admit it?? I've been claiming it outright for years. I'll say it again, and happily —God caused that there be sin. Do you think God did not have Redemption in mind when he created the universe?

Notice how you relate this to the question of omnipotence. You are right to do so. Omnipotent means that ALL things descended logically from his causation, whether directly, or through means. There is no such thing as 'accident', with God.

If you are correct, then there is no other causation than first cause, but the Bible does not say this. The creation account alone specifies at least 6 distinct interventions by God, or 6 different causes. These causes are probably broken down in reality into multiple smaller interventions by God. Humans at this point don't exist until the 7th cause. God didn't just create a big bang (the true first cause in our universe), he caused the energy and shaped it as he went. That is clear by a reading of Genesis 1.

Man is given many choices in the Bible. None of them imply that he wanted man to choose the wrong thing. Here's what your ideology means.

Genesis 2:16,17 - God warns Adam that he must not eat from the tree, or he will die.
(God intended Adam and Eve to die.)

Genesis 4:6, 7 - God warns Cain not to be angry and submit to sin.
(God intended Cain to murder Abel)

Genesis 6:5, 7 - Humans were wicked and violent. They must be destroyed.
(God intended man to be violent but destroys them for being so. At least God feels regret in the meantime in verse 6, anthropomorphic language or not.)

Genesis 11 - Humans rebel again against God and build a tower.
(God intends them to rebel, but punishes them anyway, and they scatter abroad as he originally intended.)

Genesis 19 - Sodom and Gomorrah are wicked and are going to be destroyed. Lot's family is warned to leave.
(God intends for Sodom and Gomorrah to be wicked so that he can destroy them dramatically along with Lot's wife who was also destined to become a pillar of salt, maybe to provide an opening for Lot's daughters to have Lot's children.)

Note that if any of the above humans had chosen righteous paths, it would not have broken any prophecies to this point. (Adam and Even sinned before the first prophecy.)

I will admit at this point that there is a 430-year period where the story is predestined, which follows the prophecies to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; however, it also follows that God is actively intervening throughout. (Joseph's dreams resulting in his brother's jealousy, Potiphar, Pharaoh's dreams, Moses, and the text explicitly saying that Pharaoh's heart was hardened during the 10 plagues.)

Now, in this period, we have your scriptural quote:

Mark Quayle said:
Like I've shown before, Joseph told his brothers, and I quote (my emphasis), "As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good..." Genesis 50:20

Now I asked for a quote that suggested that God caused or wants sin and/or evil in the world. This scripture is not it. What it says specifically is that man (Joseph's brothers) intended evil, and God intended good.

Mark Quayle said:
"The first causer" of a chain of causation is not the immediate causer. God caused that there BE sin. He did not sin. He did it for his own sake, for his glory and for our sake,

This is again illogical. God caused that there be sin, but he did not sin. The chain of causality suggests that if God did not sin by causing evil, then man does not sin either by being evil. If I give a gun to a small child who doesn't know any better or even know what it is and he points it at someone and pulls the trigger, then who is more guilty? Me or the child?

Mark Quayle said:
—But, do you want a big one? Acts 2:23 (and, again, my emphasis) : "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

This says that God planned the redemption, not sin. This says nothing about God wanting evil or sin. Furthermore, he calls those who killed Jesus wicked.

Whether I sin or not in the end has no impact on God's promises. Even Jesus said this about his disciples:

Luke 19:40 - "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

God does not need us. He wants us to come to him willingly which we cannot do without free will on our part.

Kathleen30 · 2025-12-16T10:02:30-0600

Jerry N. said:
I’ve been busy with other things, but I wanted to reply anyway. First of all, I believe that the Bible is inspired by God. However, different books have different levels of inspiration. Some are just eye-witness accounts inspired to the point that the authors wrote truthfully. Joshua, Kings and Chronicles are books of this sort. There was no reason for God to explain His miracles, but He did want the events recorded accurately. Many writings are from the human perspective in relation to what God did for them. That is the point, not explaining the workings of the creation.

You wrote, “All heliocentricism does is place humanity at the ass end of the universe as just another meaningless speck amongst a vast array of galaxies.” I see this in the opposite light. God gave special attention to “this meaningless speck” and sent His Son to save us. That is the way God is. My wife works with a microscope and shows me the amazing complexity of the microscopic world. The wonder of creation is not dependent on size or location.

Jerry you’ve been kept busy wit other things. Yes it often happens. Me on the holiday time but still some busy. But can stay up some late due to holidays. Yu write about different levels of inspiration. It be a some new understanding to me . I always thought the entire Bible was equally inspired by the God where does it say that the bible be at different levels of inspiration?. That’s what I would evaluate. Yu ok with us and the earth being demoted to the ass end of the universe by the ideology of what men claim as true science today. Ok. I guess we be on different sides of the road Jerry . My Bible say his creation was much beautiful the apple of his eye and not just a mere speck at the ass end of the universe as an after thought : ) . Jerry Wishing yu a blessed day . Yours Kathleen

Perpetual Student · 2025-12-16T10:01:28-0600

NxNW said:
Trump shot at by Republican
Kirk shot by a product of Republican environment
Melissa Hortman shot by Republican
Mark Hortman shot by Republican
John Hoffman shot by Republican
Yvette Hoffman shot by Republican

Always in His Presence said:
Trump shot by far left
Charlie Kirk - shot by far left
Judge Kavanaugh - far left assassin arrested
Steve Scalise - shot by far left

Instead of listing who has shot more than the other side, you guys should above all calm down.

MarcusGregor · 2025-12-16T10:01:20-0600

Oompa Loompa said:
Yes. Guns saving lives is of no interest.

Correct. It's not interesting unless you have some kind of obsession with guns. Do we have a thread every time a well-designed car saves a life? Such is the country we live in.

essentialsaltes · 2025-12-16T09:58:32-0600

d taylor said:
-

Interesting how people who do not care a lick about you and people who, you will never be allowed into their world. Can cause such polarization among people arguing over what they say and do. When you have no say in or control over the world they live in, which is not your world and most likely will never be (unless you win the 100 billion$ lottery). Then they may take notice of you not because of you, but because of the money you now have.

Hasn't there been enough about Trump already in this thread?

Let's try to remember the Reiners and their work and how they worked to provide early assistance to all California families with kids under 5.

First 5 offers services such as health care, child care and other programs to the families of California. First 5 have about eight main goals that they strive to address. These goals are school readiness, making sure that all kids have a good transition into elementary school, quality child care in the early years so that each child receives the proper care from child care facilities, emphasis on nutrition and exercise to encourage healthy life styles, health coverage for children to ensure their vaccinations and other health needs are met starting young, dental care so that children maintain a healthy smile and even avoid things such as speech impairments, providing quality pre-schools for good brain stimulation, care for children with special needs, and even the migrant farm workers children.

Studyman · 2025-12-16T09:56:58-0600

Hentenza said:
Citation please.

Not that you have ever addressed or even acknowledged most of the Scriptures I have posted, but so as not to return evil for evil, I will grant your request.

Ex. 4: 10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. 11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? 12 Now therefore go, "and I will be with thy mouth", and teach thee "what thou shalt say".

Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Ex. 31: 18 And he (God) gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

John 1: 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. ( Jn. 10: 30 I and my Father are one. , Jn. 17:8 For I have given unto them the words "which thou gavest me"; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.) 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And why did the religions of this world at that time, not know Him, according to the Jesus "of the Bible's own Words"?

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye "believe not" his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Thus the reason for the Christ "of the Bible's", Own Words I posted for you in Luke 16. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If you are not persuaded by these Words, who was chosen to record and carry God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments throughout the nations, it is clear why, according to Christ's Own Words.

Perpetual Student · 2025-12-16T09:55:15-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
Awww...but Rush died...it's in such bad taste to say anything bad about him, because dying (literally something that will happen to all of us) means everyone else has to pretend to like you and soften their rhetoric for a month or two </sarcasm>

Back to reality
Rob Reiner injected himself into politics the same way Rush Limbaugh and Charlie Kirk did, and as I showed above, wasn't opposed to the "stick the boot in while the body's still warm" approach if it was a person he didn't like.

Had it been someone like a Keanu Reeves (someone who's known for being non-controversial, nice guy, charitable, and keeping his politics to himself and going out of his way to stay out of all that sort of mess), and a politician went on a tirade about him, that'd be a different story.

Do I understand you well that everybody who says or writes something negative about Trump is fair game by now? Can you point me to any word where YTrump blames the murderer? Any sentence where is considers killing someone for voicing his opinion is wrong and illegal?
Au contraire, mon chère. He lays the blame with Bob Reiner (he drove people crazy).
A malevolent reading could even see in Trump's tweet a call for more murders.
I will not sit with my back to the door anymore.

Jerry N. · 2025-12-16T09:53:53-0600

Servus said:
Right, you'll reject any such video regardless of who posted it.

I have been wondering about your nice Christmas hat. Either your photoshop skills are very impressive or you did it a different way. How did you do it?

BCP1928 · 2025-12-16T09:52:44-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
I'm not saying that.

To suggest so would be an example reductio ad absurdum.

I'm suggesting that translators/interpreters (of any kind) can skew an underlying sentiment or meaning.

There's a reason why the phrase "lost in translation" was coined and has become a household saying.

That's especially true for statements being made that are heavy on the "play on words" or English phonetics and/or "Rhyming" or "catchy illiteration". (which happens to be a huge part of some peoples' repertoires)

Just as a simple example.

"I used to be a banker, but I lost interest."

"What do you call a bear with no teeth? A gummy bear"

Try to translate that to another language and still have it make sense.

If it's any language where the words for "Interest" (being interested in something) and "Interest" (a rate charged for money lending services) are different, that "play on words" officially makes no sense.

How do ASL translators avoid difficulties like that?

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-12-16T09:49:47-0600

Bradskii said:
What a truly bizarre thread. Someone on the right pointing out that atrocities by far right wing extremists are nearly as minimal this year, after over 30 years of being grossly over represented, as those by the far left.

Notwithstanding that the types of acts that are being investigated by the linked paper are rejected as being unconscionable by all reasonable people on both sides of the political fence.

So what's the purpose. Are you implying 'Hey, we are doing almost as little as you'? Or 'We aren't as bad these days as we used to be'.

Who on earth is in this forum that is represented by the 'we'? Are you including yourself? Are you trying to divide people into different sides that would align with far right or far left extremism?

If I supported the political right, I'd be embarrassed to share this article since the statistics reveal more political violence from that side over the past 30 years.

The original poster frequently shares content without fully reading or understanding it. He often react to headlines by starting new threads, and become upset when others point out that the article is incorrect or misleading. In this instance, it appears he did not read thoroughly enough to see that the article actually indicates his own side has been involved in political violence 50 times more over the past thirty years than the side he is criticizing.

Political violence is a serious issue in America and should be condemned regardless of which group perpetrates it. However, this chart—previously unfamiliar to me—demonstrates that the political right has committed more acts of violence than the political left. The narratives suggesting that BLM causes widespread disruption appear minimal when compared to the data presented above. It seems that right-wing media have repeatedly misrepresented BLM and Antifa as being more violent than the right.

fhansen · 2025-12-16T09:45:01-0600

DamianWarS said:
Christ is a model but this needs to be qualified as to how far that model extends. I suspect what you mean is Christ is a model so far as it pertains to the things you value in your faith. For example, Christ was circumcised physically; therefore, as a model, should we not be circumcised physically? Christ died for our sins; therefore as a model, should we too die for the sins of others? Christ radically challenged the de facto interpretation of the law of the day, so as a model, should we not radically challenge the de facto interpretation of the law too? How far does this modelship go? Simply calling Christ a model is not a mic drop as it's a loaded statement and used only to prop up whatever it is you're trying to prop up.

You're still over-complicating the matter. Christ shows us that obedience is possible, that man was never created to sin and that there's a way, one Way, to overcome the sin that otherwise earns us death.

DamianWarS said:
As it pretains to Sabbath law, Christ shows us as a model of Sabbath that it is better to do good (Mat 12:12). So rather than plan to have a ritual rest on the Sabbath day, it is better to plan to do good (even if that involves work) but no one whats to admit that logic and would rather keep their sabbath day as the 4th has instructed them to, rather than actively seek goodness as Christ has modeled.

Ye, it's good to do good on the Sabbath. And so?? One of those goods, for our own benefit as the Sabbath was made for man, is to regulary take that time dedicated to the devotion and partaking of God.

DamianWarS said:
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." The law can certainly show us moral action, but it should not function as our guide to a moral foundation and if it does we will end up missing the point.

And how faithful are we being, or what good would our faith be, if we were persistently and unrepentantly engaged in breaking the commandments? Here's a great quote that happens to be from a former pope:

"This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith."

DamianWarS said:
I may not kill, not steal or not lie to my neighbour, all law-keeping things, but I also may actively hate him and have a motivation towards him that is incompatible with Christian living, all while saying the law is my tutor so I am justified.

??? The law as a tutor only points to our lack of justice, our lack of love, IOW, in such cases!

DamianWarS said:
I suspect the thing that keeps you fixated on the law is the 4th commandment so you have to maintain this false dichotomy of law to prop up the 10 and smuggle them into the NC.

There's no smuggling them in to the NC. They simply stand as truth regarding certain basic matters of justice, even though they cannot accomplish that justice/righteousness in us by merely observing them. Again, they're innocuous for one who would be "perfected in love", but we prove that we still benefit from their tutorship to the extent the we sin, wherever we fail to love, IOW. They help convict us that our hearts and minds are not in the right place.

DamianWarS said:
Is not Christ the Lord of the Sabbath, meaning he has authority over it? The 10 communicates these values in Christ but in ignorance and unrevealed. Why would you hold on to those value?

What does that even mean? If we were actively breaking the commandments we only prove that we don't even know Christ, let alone love Him and neighbor.

JosephZ · 2025-12-16T09:44:53-0600

prodromos said:
They are Pakistani, which is 96% Moslem.

One of the Islamist extremists was an Indian national, the elder of the two, and his son was an Australian national.

FreeinChrist · 2025-12-16T09:42:26-0600

ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a clean up of bickering and problem posts.

Please remember the flaming rule.

Jerry N. · 2025-12-16T09:39:22-0600

Apple Sky said:
Oh no whats this then ?

View attachment 374581

That photo has been debunked, because there are no sources given or historical information.

Perpetual Student · 2025-12-16T09:39:00-0600

A very sad thing happened last night in Hollywood. Rob Reiner, a tortured and struggling, but once very talented movie director and comedy star, has passed away, together with his wife, Michele, reportedly due to the anger he caused others through his massive, unyielding, and incurable affliction with a mind crippling disease known as TRUMP DERANGEMENT SYNDROME, sometimes referred to as TDS. He was known to have driven people CRAZY by his raging obsession of President Donald J. Trump, with his obvious paranoia reaching new heights as the Trump Administration surpassed all goals and expectations of greatness, and with the Golden Age of America upon us, perhaps like never before. May Rob and Michele rest in peace! Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

This is unbelievable.
Read very carefully what Trump writes:
"due to the anger he caused others through his massive, unyielding, and incurable affliction with a mind crippling disease known as TRUMP DERANGEMENT SYNDROME, "
Is there anywhere any word of condemnation for the murders? Is there anywhere any word of condemnation of the murderer? No, it was Reiner who caused the anger according to Trump.
"He was known to have driven people CRAZY ": poor poor murderer driven crazy by the raging Reiner. Shouldn't we all start a GoFundme for the devastated murderer? After all, it was Reiner who drove him crazy.

But not all is bad in Trump's tweet. After all he finishes with "May Rob and Michele rest in peace", which is a step forward compared to a Christmas message from some years ago where is ended with "MAY THEY ROT IN HELL":

https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1739422193648304520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1739422193648304520%7Ctwgr%5E126394835fe5dccff207fef74b7b41f9ea939263%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffpost.com%2Fentry%2Fdonald-trump-rot-in-hell-truth-social-christmas_n_658a5753e4b03e698a141df3

America, this is your president.

David Lamb · 2025-12-16T09:35:18-0600

Apple Sky said:
Yes, but once again, I've never rejcted a video b/c of who posted it.

So you would watch a NASA video?

BCP1928 · 2025-12-16T09:34:13-0600

rjs330 said:
I am not twisting scripture. I am merely quoting it. I am pointing out that our mandate cannot be cherry picked to suit whatever political cause you want. That goes for everyone. The legitimacy of scripture is diluted when we decide we are going to pick and choose which ones we want to follow. Its diluted even more when we pick and choose which ones we want the government to enforce. We shouldn't do that. That is nothing more than you deciding what kind of Theocracy you want.

Jesus commands are for YOU. You should help the poor. You should help the needy. He does not command governments to. If anyone is twisting scriptures it is those who try and use it for political purposes to force others to care for illegal immigrants whether they want to or not.

Incorrect. You and far too many Christian liberals are the ones who are intertwining religious obligation and civil law. Can you please quote Christ or any apostle who says the religious obligations of followers of Christ ought to be codified and enforced by law?

So how do you justify wanting to make laws against sinful sex?

rjs330 said:
Neither Christ nor the apostles said anything about social justice. That is nothing more than liberal political nonsense. And it does violence to the actual mandates of scripture. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart. Are you for forcing that upon civil law?

He commanded YOU to do it. It was not a mandate for governmental law. You give out of your own pocket, not someone else's.

Except that scripture also commands other things as well. As I pointed out. Its a violation to pick and choose which ones you want to follow. And its also a violation of scripture to cherry pick which ones you want the government to enforce.

You are commanded to help the needy and to love God by obeying all his commandments. That is for you to do.

If you were trying to give water to the thirsty and the government told you, you can't then you should disobey the government.

Mercy does NOT negate consequences for illegal acts. If someone murdered your loved one you may show them mercy by forgiving them. But that doesn’t mean the government is now obligated to release them.

Justice and mercy are what we should be seeking. And if you are demanding mercy then you should also be demanding justice. Illegals should be rounded up for disobeying the law. They should be treated humanely, given food, water, medical treatment, and their needs should be covered. Then they should face the consequences of their illegal acts and be deported.

8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

15 “ ‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Kathleen30 · 2025-12-16T09:30:59-0600

prodromos said:
A broad claim without evidence. You claim "most Christian nations". How many Christian nations were there? Please cite evidence that backs up your claim for each one so we can assess the accuracy of your claim. I can tell you right now that your claim is false regarding the Orthodox Church, which tells me you are full of it.

Prodromos what in Gods name are yu talking about . A broad claim without evidence yu say . Prodromos perhaps yu have not heard of Claudus Ptolemy 2nd century BC Greek Astronomer. It was his system the geocentric system that the world embraced and not only western civilisation but Islamic thought embraced it as well. This is just common knowledge. Whilst the first challenges may have begun with Copernicus in the 16th the Ptolemaic system wasn’t toppled until the late 19th and early 20th century. The battle went back and forth a good 300-400 yrs. And what’s with saying I’m full of it. You make it personal and not factual. Why such vindictiveness from you ? Prodromos i not understand what got into yu to say that. I never say it of yu

BCP1928 · 2025-12-16T09:27:44-0600

rjs330 said:
Its all from Christ. He is God and God inspired Paul to write those words. Therefore that is what Christ wanted Paul to write. He did not ask Paul to write things that he did not approve of.

That's your interpretation of it. Why should anybody else care?

A2SG · 2025-12-16T09:25:40-0600

Factotum said:
...do wrongly deem the judge as acting without bias or favoritism.

Kindly provide evidence of this bias or favoritism you assert.

-- A2SG, be nice to actually see any....

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