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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

According to this belief all belief in religious knowledge including the bible is irrelevant to how the world is, what is true knowledge. What if the bible is right and this physical world is but an illusion that will pass away. That God created life, not from a physical ontology but whatever it is that God is.
And l suppose the following list of foreigners mentioned in the Old Testament that have been archaeologically attested to were also illusions in their respective cultures.

NameRole / NationBiblical ReferencesArchaeological EvidenceType of Evidence
Shishak (Shoshenq I)Egyptian Pharaoh1 Kings 14:25–26; 2 Chr. 12:2–9Bubastite Portal (Karnak) lists his Judah campaign townsDirect inscription
Pharaoh Necho IIEgyptian Pharaoh2 Kings 23:29–35; 2 Chr. 35:20–24Numerous Egyptian inscriptions and monumentsDirect inscription
Tiglath-Pileser IIIAssyrian King2 Kings 15–16; 1 Chr. 5:26Royal annals describing campaigns in Israel and JudahDirect inscription
Shalmaneser IIIAssyrian King2 Kings 17:3Kurkh Monolith; Black Obelisk (shows Jehu)Direct inscription
Shalmaneser VAssyrian King2 Kings 17:3–6Assyrian king lists and Babylonian ChronicleDirect inscription
Sargon IIAssyrian KingIsaiah 20:1Extensive palace inscriptions at KhorsabadDirect inscription
SennacheribAssyrian King2 Kings 18–19; Isaiah 36–37Taylor Prism (siege of Hezekiah), palace reliefsDirect inscription
EsarhaddonAssyrian King2 Kings 19:37; Ezra 4:2Prism inscriptions listing vassal kingsDirect inscription
AshurbanipalAssyrian KingEzra 4:10 (as Asnappar)Palace inscriptions and library tabletsDirect inscription
Merodach-baladanBabylonian KingIsaiah 39:1; 2 Kings 20:12Babylonian king lists and inscriptionsDirect inscription
Nebuchadnezzar IIBabylonian King2 Kings 24–25; Daniel 1–4; JeremiahThousands of inscriptions confirming his reignDirect inscription
Evil-Merodach (Amel-Marduk)Babylonian King2 Kings 25:27; Jer. 52:31Babylonian king lists; inscriptionsDirect inscription
BelshazzarBabylonian RegentDaniel 5Nabonidus Cylinders naming Belshazzar as his sonDirect inscription
Cyrus the GreatPersian KingEzra 1; Isaiah 45Cyrus Cylinder; other inscriptionsDirect inscription
Darius I (the Great)Persian KingEzra 4–6; Daniel 6Behistun Inscription and many othersDirect inscription
Xerxes I (Ahasuerus)Persian KingBook of EstherPersepolis and other Persian royal inscriptionsDirect inscription
Artaxerxes IPersian KingEzra 7; Nehemiah 2Persian royal inscriptionsDirect inscription
TattenaiPersian Governor (“Beyond the River”)Ezra 5–6Darius’ administrative records mentioning TattannuDirect inscription
SanballatSamaritan GovernorNehemiah 2–6Elephantine papyri mentioning “Sanballat the governor”Direct inscription
Ben-Hadad (Bar-Hadad)Aramean Kings (several)1 Kings 15:18–20; 20:1–34Zakkur Stele; Tel Dan Stele referencesLikely identification
HazaelKing of Aram-Damascus1 Kings 19:15; 2 Kings 8–13Tel Dan Stele; Assyrian annals of Shalmaneser IIIDirect inscription
Mesha, King of MoabKing of Moab2 Kings 3Mesha Stele (Moabite Stone)Direct inscription
Balaam son of BeorNon-Israelite prophetNumbers 22–24Deir Alla Inscription (“Balaam son of Beor”)Direct inscription
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I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

How can you not see that you are stating every side of the argument at once and completely refuting yourself?

How does it sound to you if I were to say that "if I flicked a light switch on, it does not imply that the electrical current did not really choose to turn the light on. I think it is more obvious, since I flicked the light switch, that the electrical current's choice to turn on the light is only real if I allowed it. That the electrical current is not the prime mover in its choice does not deny that the electrical current is the immediate cause of the light turning on."

The electrical current is indeed the cause, but did it make the choice to be the cause?
But we're not talking about electric current here, are we? God created. There was and is nothing that is not a result of that.
True, It does not; however, in that case it requires deception by God to make me believe that i am not already controlled by a fixation in time.
No. Only by your parameters.
First you say it is false that man is the prime mover in his deeds, and then immediately afterwards you proclaim it as true in the next two sentences.
I looked. I see nowhere I proclaimed as true that man is the prime mover in his deeds.
I am not denying that God caused our reality, but within that reality I believe that God has the ability to give us a choice that is not pre-determined. You claim that God does not have that ability, but through a bunch of word-salad try to explain away the contradictions your position creates.
No. If he caused it, and that is reality, then whatever is real within that reality is caused by God. To characterize something within that reality as uncaused is therefore logically self-contradictory.

No, I do not claim that God does not (nor that he does) have that ability. I claim it is logical nonsense, a figment of the imagination, words playing in the mind of presumptuous humans.
Actually, the source of choice is not so much the issue as is whether the choice is real. If God knows our choice before it is made, then it is not really a choice either by God or by us.
I did not intend "the source of choice" there. I intended the source of the ability to choose Christ, and the source of salvific Faith.
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Does it matter what day Christ was crucified on?

So, I heard a theory that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday, rather than Friday (as is commonly believed.) Therefore, he rose from the dead on Saturday (the Sabbath.)

Idk enough about this view to really either affirm or deny it, but is it a gospel issue?

Can a genuine Christian believe Jesus died on Wednesday, as long as he still agrees that he rose again three days later?
I feel I am a genuine Christian and I believe that Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and he rose on the Sabbath.

I believe either the lack of the translators knowledge of the ancient Israelites Sabbath days and which Sabbath day was being referred to along with their lack of knowledge that the Israelites days began at 6:00 p.m. gave them reason to feel it was Friday or because Constantine made It law that Sunday was the day of worship removing the day of worship from the Sabbath, the first Roman churches agreed and gave reasoning for the acceptance that Christ was crucified on a Friday and rose on a Sunday I feel, and they grossly miscalculated the days.

And if one had just a smidgen of mathematical knowledge one would know if Jesus was crucified on a Friday and stayed in the belly of the Earth for 3 days and three nights he would have risen on a Monday.

I believe that is why the Lord made the Sabbath day Holy unto himself and for men because that was when his plan of salvation for man was carried out.

Lord didn't say remember the Sabbath and keep it holy as a part of the Ten Commandments for nothing. Nor did he ever change the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day, the Roman Church accepted that under Constantine.

Wish I could still find the information that was available few years ago detailing each event and each Sabbath that was taken place during the time of the crucifixion of Christ. This is close not as detailed but close
Blog | Maranatha Baptist Church Why I Believe in a Wednesday Crucifixion
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Dear Pete Hegseth, I’m Grateful the Japanese Navy Spared My Grandfather’s Life

No party has been as wackadoodles over a president as the democrats have been against Trump.
You should have been around back when President Obama was in office. Man, the GOP was wackadoodle over him! I could tell you some stories, like so many racist caricatures and invective, false claims about his religion, citizenship (including a lengthy one from the current Oval Office resident), etc. It was pretty weird, you should have seen it!

And even the leadership of the Republican party got into the act. The majority leader of the Senate at the time actually said, "the single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."

Granted, Trump's actions in office have been unprecedented, which does prompt unprecedented responses, but to think that only Democrats strongly oppose a president only shows you must not have been paying attention from 2008 to 2016.

-- A2SG, it was a wild time, you shoulda been here.....
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Morality without Absolute Morality

I think you may have misunderstood what I was suggesting. I am not saying God is the problem but actually fallen man who claims to know better and defies God. That only a person renewed in mind and spirit in Christ will ever be able to have a chance at being truely good to lead the people.

Therefore the logical assumption is that those in power who lead and are not renewed in Christ will inevitably be corrupted one way or another.

As though this is our measuring stick that can tell us ultimately though leaders claim to be moral such as being Woke or Humanist or whatever ideology used to replace God. That this will ultimately be corrupted and will should not be surpiised when we see such corruption come out today in leadership.

But I think you have highlighted another aspect. If this is the case that those who defy God blantly, ie have known God and His way but still defy Him then Gods judgement and punishment will also come upon them in one way or another.

Well, the thought behind what I wrote was, slander, gossip, idle talk is so serious and damaging even though it may seem harmless.

W hen the great Prophetess Miriam, Moses older sister spoke with Aaron about Moses relationship with his wife God was enraged.

If Miriam was punished for seemingly harmless chitter chatter, how much more then should we avoid getting involved in such.

Thereof, Deuteronomy 24:9, to remind oneself.
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The Electrical Nature of the Universe

You see if the day of the Lord occurs after the millennium it will not come as a thief in the night, EVERYBODY that is alive whether damned or saved will know.
What I said and believe, is the terrible Day of the Lords wrath, is the next Prophesied event we can expect. It will come as a surprise to all.
Jesus does not Return in vengeance and fiery wrath.

The glorious Return and the final Judgment will be known, as we get nearer to the times.
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Trump’s team sees Europe’s ‘erasure.’

Wow, this thread has become incredibly boring all of a sudden.
So sorry for you. But hey, there are some interesting topics in this thread. Maybe you can start by answering this:

... You do realise if you'd bothered to actually read the reasons behind the fine, you'd know the answer to that? We've posted them in this very thread, go read them. Twitter wasn't fined, because they abided by those regulations. And more importantly, because time is linear and DSA came into force about a month (iirc) after Musk bought Twitter.
Because I personally am REALLY interested in finding out how exactly did you think Twitter would be fined by legislation that didn't come into force until after Musk bought it and when the fines are about things that also changed after the platform became X? The blue checkmark thing for example. So... If you start talking about the fines, perhaps read what they are about first?
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Trump’s team sees Europe’s ‘erasure.’

There are bad takes.
There are wrong takes.
There are bizarre takes.
And then there is this.
A lot of people have been saying that Russia has been trying for years to get good with the West. Word is, they started this Ukraine war out of anxiety from being excluded.
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Eve and the Fallacy of Moral Choices

Perhaps a Herculean effort on your part to not connect desire to lust?

I'll leave that to your eyes

My eyes read the Hebrew and the Hebrew for lust isn’t used in relation to Eve. I’ve made a Herculean of the logical, identify the Hebrew word used, discern its meaning, use a Lexicon and Bible dictionary, and conclude the Hebrew text isn’t using the word “list.”

Maybe your “eyes” need to focus upon the what the Hebrew text says, rather than what you want the Hebrew to say.

Your interpretation is vacuous, not supported by Hebrew of the OT, Koine Greek of the NT, and you did not refute my objections to your view and my prior post remains unrebutted by you.
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Chapel Veils

I think wearing a Chapel Veil draws attention to oneself and if I wore one I’d be giving off the impression that I think I’m holier then thou.
That’s fair. That’s your choice.

Hypothetically, if you attended a Latin Mass, would you veil?

(I think ALL valid forms of Mass should be preserved and celebrated. Period.)
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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

What you're seemingly asking, as far as I can tell, is for me to divulge as to what my choice of praxis is when doing theology. Well, for me, theology hinges on the application of research in Historiography, the Philosophy of History, Archaeology, and various Critical Biblical Studies, as well as upon Philosophical Hermenuetics and Evidentialism.

As for Metaphysics, I tend to ignore it and just focus on Physics and material science without worrying about the final ontologicalquestions, but where knowledge is concerned, then I draw upon a number of scholars for analyses dealing with Epistemology and our justification for claims of "knowledge." I would rather study the Cosmos or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than guessing as to what Heaven and Eternal Life will actually be like. I'm sure it'll be grand with a Capital J.

But here's the thing: I have no intention of going around wacking other Christians over the head, insisting upon their dogmatic compliance with how I ultimately understand the Bible and then condemning those who don't. As for the issue of 'Hell,' which this thread pertains to, I don't care if Christians subscribe to either Eternal Fire or Annihilationism. I do have less room for Universalism, but I might be persuaded to "allow" universalist Christians to have room to believe as they wish without automatically consigning them to the Lake of Fire for hoping that everyone would be saved.
Thanks for sharing with you. I like having discussions with civil manners. Yeah, people IMHO have their own prerogative & aptitude to seek what they wish. I am a novice astrologer whose always in awe when witnessing the wonders of space. Just witnessing M31, Saturn, Jupiter all point to a Divine Maker. Physics or natural laws all also point to a designer. I am now studying Quantum Physics & Micro Biology: Human Cells (Mitosis).

All that being said, doesn't reveal what God has accomplished in His Son for His people. The historical record of the eschatological consummation of God's Redemptive Plan is what I am interested in. That to me is more awe taking that anything else I have read. I am only sharing with you.

Thanks again for sharing.​
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Experiencing heaven on earth?

There is no escaping some afflictions. "The afflictions of the righteous are many, but the Lord delivers us from them all." Learning "obedience from the things we suffer." This suggests we encounter troubles but as we trust God, He pulls us toward himself. One thing that helps is to avoid taking the bait or trap that Satan tries to put on us at times. We have to watch our confession and not believe in the lies of the devil. Such lies are generally based on our own fears, condemnation, or other negative thinking. We can push much aside using God's word!
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Stephen Miller Says Trump White House Has Offered to Put Him on CNN at ‘Any Time’ to Respond to Their Numerous Lies But They Won’t Have Him On (VIDEO)

I have asked that people not demonize their political opponents, and I am asking again. Name-calling is typically because of a lack of substance to an argument. Although a bit further back than President Trump's, Stephen Miller's (a family man with three children) ancestry is one of immigration. Miller, like Trump, is concerned about the children lost under the Biden administration, concerned about the victims of horrible crimes perpetrated by unvetted and illegal immigrants allowed into our country by the Biden administration, and concerned about the damage that has been done by letting in large populations that do not care for America and wish to keep allegiance to their countries of origin. Conservatives want LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who respect our laws, love America and our way of life, and have a desire to assimilate into our culture.
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Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

We cannot throw out texts like these-

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; The candle of the wicked shall be put out."

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: The end of the wicked shall be cut off."



Psalms 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalms 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever:



Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"


II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

II Peter 2:12 "But these, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

The Greek is pretty clear that means fully destroy.

We are given the example of God's eternal fire in what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah-


Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
All those passages use the language of destruction, cutting off, and perishing, but none of them require non-existence. In Scripture, “destroy” often means ruin, defeat, or loss, not annihilation:
-Israel is said to be “destroyed” yet clearly still exists (Hos 13:9).
-The prodigal son was “dead” (destroyed) yet fully conscious (Luke 15:24).
-Believers were “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1), but not nonexistent.

“Destruction” in biblical language describes the condition of the wicked, not their disappearance.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 actually supports this: “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”
You cannot be away from God’s presence if you no longer exist. That’s a state, not annihilation.

And Jude 7 doesn't teach annihilation either. Sodom isn’t still burning today, yet Jude calls it an example of eternal fire. The fire is eternal, not because the fuel burns forever, but because the judgment is eternal in its effect, just as Hebrews 6:2 speaks of “eternal judgment.”

The OT “destroy” passages describe the certainty and completeness of God’s judgment, not the end of conscious existence.
So none of those texts overturn the clear New Testament statements of ongoing, conscious consequences (“their worm does not die,” “the smoke of their torment goes up forever,” Rev 14:11).

Here are some questions:

1. If “destroy” means non-existence, how can people be “destroyed” yet still exist?​

Hosea 13:9 “O Israel, you are destroyed, but in Me is your help.”
Israel still existed afterwards.
Question: If “destroyed” here doesn’t mean annihilation, why must it mean annihilation in the passages you quoted?

2. How can someone be “dead” yet conscious?​

Luke 15:24 “This my son was dead and is alive again.”
Ephesians 2:1 “You were dead in your trespasses.”
Both “dead” persons were conscious.
Question: If biblical “death” can mean ruin, not non-existence, why assume “second death” means extinction?

3. How can people be “away from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess 1:9) if they no longer exist?​

Non-existence has no experience, no location, no duration.
Question: How can the wicked be punished with “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” if they are annihilated and no longer present anywhere?

4. Why does Jesus describe an ongoing state, not an event?​

Mark 9:48 “Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
This is duration, not extinction.
Question: If the person ceases to exist, whose worm is still not dying?

5. Why does Revelation describe ongoing torment if annihilation is true?​

Revelation 14:11 “The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever… they have no rest day or night.”
Question: If they are annihilated instantly, how can there be “no rest day or night”? Rest from what?

6. Why does Revelation 20:10 say the devil is tormented “day and night forever and ever,” then place humans in the same fate?​

The beast and false prophet are still in the fire 1,000 years later.
Question: If the lake of fire instantly annihilates, how are they still there alive after 1,000 years?

7. Why does Daniel 12:2 contrast eternal life with eternal shame/contempt, not eternal non-existence?​

People cannot feel shame or contempt if they don’t exist.
Question: If the wicked are annihilated, how can they experience “eternal contempt”?

8. How can “eternal fire” in Jude 7 refer to annihilation when Jude applies it to a past event?​

Jude 7. Sodom is an example of “eternal fire.”
The fire isn’t still burning, but the judgment is eternal.
Question: If “eternal fire” means annihilation, why does Jude use it for a judgment whose effects, not the flames, are eternal?

9. Why does Jesus warn about “weeping and gnashing of teeth” if annihilation is instant?​

This is ongoing consciousness and regret.
Question: How can a destroyed, nonexistent person weep or gnash their teeth?

10. Why does Jesus say the punishment is “eternal,” not the fire?​

Matthew 25:46 “Eternal punishment” (κόλασις αἰώνιος).
Not “punishment for a moment followed by non-existence.”
Question: Why does Jesus parallel eternal life and eternal punishment if one side is conscious and the other is not?
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LeBron James? Or, Michael Jordan?

I definitely agree that Jordan is THEE ABSOLUTE WORST in history, when it comes to drama... here's my choice, for his worst drama moment:
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...and when it comes to TEAM sports, I stand with Magic Johnson re: the NBA ...when he said it is illogical to use the amount of titles won, to determine the GOAT player in a team sport. Because winning titles = there are just 'too many moving parts' that are impossible to give proper credit to.
Bill Russell has the most titles, but 6 and 0 in titles with Jordan as the leader is very impressive. I think that older poeple who grew up watching Jordan are generally going to pick him. Lebron is a beast though and I doubt we will see another player that is similar to his skills perhaps ever again.
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Hello all.

Good evening, morning, afternoon, new day to all viewing my post.
My name is Jasmine, and I am a devoted follower of our Lord and Savior Yeshua Messiah. I hope to connect with fellow believers, have meaningful conversations with non-believers, and to learn alongside you as we peruse through the forums.

I have an inquiry regarding employment, job seeking that may be out of place for "Introduce Yourself, but I was hoping to place a personal summary for my job experience in hopes of securing employment. If anyone could offer advice as to which forum would best for this purpose (Prayer requests, Christian advice, Christian Forum Community Life, Chat with Staff, Young Adults, Christian Forums Blogs, Business, Administration & Management, Christian Forums Marketplace, etc)? I'd like to streamline this effort as to not risk spamming.

I wish everyone well. Here is to the conversations that are to come.
Welcome to CF. I personally do not know where to post anything on trying to find work. Under Christian advice, you might ask others if they know of any methods to find work that you might be omitting? I pray you can find a rewarding position, that can utilize and even further develop your talents. God bless!
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Donald Trump Says US To Launch Land Action in Venezuela ‘Very Soon’

Oil futures rose yesterday after news of the ship's seizure was announced.

"This is just yet another geopolitical/sanctions headwind hammering spot supply availability," Rory Johnston, an analyst with Commodity Context, said.

Good job Donald. It's almost as though he wants to increase the price oil. Shell oil, who ships 150,000 barrels per day to the US from Venezuela, should be happy with higher prices though.

Trump is putting the navy to work to combat the oil price increase, one tanker at a time.
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Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

The NT eternal (Aionions, Olam) references are from the OT, Isaiah quotes and such, and the smoke of Edom eventually went out, they are no more... where the scriptures predominately speak of total destruction, blotting out, as water goes into ground, over and over God says He will wipe them away. And fire means fire, it destroys everything, historically everyone knows that, otherwise he could have used some other metaphor.
Exactly
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Skipping 'The Skipper' Sanctions: A blatant theft? And, an international act of piracy??

This one was actually done by the book. The seizure appears to be a legal under US law and at least defensible under international maritime law.

However, if you were looking to calm down US-Venezuela tensions, this REALLY doesn't help. One would think that this sort of action amounts to deliberate provocation.

This seizure also shows the Trump Administration's hypocrisy over its recent actions across the Caribbean with the drone strikes AND its lack of action concerning sanctioned Russian oil vessels.

To conduct this seizure, the US co-ordinated elements from the FBI, US Navy, US Coast Guard and various other Homeland Security investigation/intelligence organs and put physical elements (ships, helos) into harms way in international waters. Yet, it is very deliberately NOT doing this to seize the "drug boats" and arrest their crews, instead choosing extrajudicial execution as a strategy.

Also, the US has sanctioned more than 180 Russian oil tankers. I wonder how the Trump administration would react to proposals that it pull similar seizures on Russian vessels in the Mediterranean?
The Europeans should do this all the false flag ships that the Russians use. Many of those ships too have environmental problems. Russia’s shadow fleet accused of polluting EU waters

I suppose they are too afraid to stop them? They have prosecuted a few that have cut underwater cables though.
  • Agree
Reactions: Vambram
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Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

f the wicked are burned to nothing, then the language of ongoing torment makes no sense. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes conscious, eternal punishment:
* Mark 9:48, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Again, Jesus is using an analogy here with Gehenna and the fires that were kept going. The Lake of Fire will keep going as well until everything is consumed.

There should still be no question as to what Christ means in Matthew 10:28 which aligns with every verse in the Bible about what will happen to the wicked.

If the wicked are burned to nothing,
There's no if about it. They will be turned to ashes.

but Scripture consistently shows that death is conscious ruin and separation from God (Eph 2:1; 1 Tim 5:6), not extinction.
Those verses point to the fact that if that's their final state than yes, they would suffer the second death.

The text shows that the person exists in a state of ongoing ruin,
We cannot throw out texts like these-

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; The candle of the wicked shall be put out."

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: The end of the wicked shall be cut off."



Psalms 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalms 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever:



Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"


II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

II Peter 2:12 "But these, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

The Greek is pretty clear that means fully destroy.

We are given the example of God's eternal fire in what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah-


Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

The imagery
Imagery? Symbolic judgement?

I don't think our Father can be anymore clear-


Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."


That's what a fire does. We saw what his eternal fire did in the OT and was told that is set for our example.

When our physical body dies, it is not the end of the person

Not at that point no. But at Judgement Day and the Lake of Fire, they will suffer the second death.

. Earthly death is not a finality which is how you view it. Viewing it as such is a misunderstanding.
I never stated the earthly death was a finality. I stated the second death was.

s spiritual life versus spiritual ruin,
Yet that's not what the verse states. It's life or perish. Only one person gets everlasting life. So in contrast, it would be destroyed, death, destruction. You can't insert ruin when the context doesn't point to that. You are in fact stating that both have eternal life. And that's not what the verse states.

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Using AI for scripture study

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

AI's logic isn't even that good because it bases its answers on whatever you want to hear. It will bypass logic rules if the answer will make you happy. It learns what you like and manipulates the answers based on that. It's called Reinforcement Learning From Human Feedback (RLHF) and ALL large models like ChatGPT and Gemini are trained using that.
Well, "Artificial Intelligence" (AI) can not tell me what I want to hear, if I have not given it feedback, I would think. For example, when I ask for a sermon about "humildad" in Spanish so I can see what vocabulary is used to communicate about humility in Spanish . . . I haven't given AI any info about what I feel and believe, or why I am doing the search. Also, of course, I check websites for messages on a subject; and I need to be attentive to what Spanish messages might say that can help me to become genuinely humble like Jesus.

What I think I have seen, though, is how AI can give a message that might have some scriptural content, but also it can tend to be about what I can get for myself, not emphasizing all that is for God and what His purpose is > Romans 8:29. And I can be told I control choices, in fact controlling what God has "permission" to do!! However, there are people who slip this kind of thing into their sermons, also; so not only AI might tell people some "soft" message not really requiring what Jesus expects with us.

Even if AI is "objective", it can be limited to what is on the Net . . . that people have written. And some number of people are limited to their own ability to prepare messages, while others are selling their ministry even though Jesus says >

"Freely you have received, freely give." (in Matthew 10:8)

And while ones are ministering for sale, they can be operating in a spirit not freely giving so their ministry is defective because it is in an un-freely-giving spirit and not in the ability of the Holy Spirit. For example, ones can make a major thing of what is for you, and how you learn to control the devil and you control what God does with you or not. There can be nothing about submitting to God and how He makes our character submissive so we can obey Him in His peace > Colossians 3:15.

And "Heaven" can be treated as what is for you . . . with little or no attention to how Jesus is > as our example so that, for God, we become and love like Jesus. Instead, we can hear and read quite a lot about how great Heaven is going to be, for us, and be stirred-up with this. Plus, there can be quite a lot about how God so loves us and has done so much for us, without mention of how God's unconditional love and Jesus dying for us is our *example*to*follow* >

"forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (in Ephesians 4:32)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Plus, it appears that a number of ministers talk about God's chastening/correction/discipline as more of a way to punish us or pressure us to do what He wants. But I offer that Hebrews 12:4-14 shows that our Father's real correction is in our character, changing us to share with Him in His own holiness in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". In other words, He corrects our character to become like Jesus so we are submissive to our Father, like Jesus is, plus we are loving like Jesus, and Jesus in us shares with us in our character so we become pleasing to our Father like Jesus is so pleasing.

So, then, perhaps we could say that real correction is focused on how Jesus is so pleasing to our Father . . . while human teaching about correction can be so focused on things we are or are not doing and our own ability to decide what we want to do. To me, it seems that both AI but also human ministers can tend to focus more on us humans!!

But every scripture can be used by God to minister us into the likeness of Christ and how He loves and how He is so pleasing to our Father, sharing this with us, as Jesus grows in us as our new inner Person > I mean how God means Galatians 4:19 >

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)
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