DaisyDay said:

If everyone has to choose a single citizenship, then they can choose Israeli in accordance with their religious practice.

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No, circumcision goes on independent of country. it is a religious practice. Circumcision was done in Egypt while they were slaves, before Israel was even a nation.

DaisyDay said:

Um, what? Muslim also circumcise and lots of Christians as well....what's that got to do with dual citizenship or the denial of it?

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So what? That does not say anything about where they live either.

ralliann said:

How? their citizenship is a religious practice.

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If everyone has to choose a single citizenship, then they can choose Israeli in accordance with their religious practice.

ralliann said:

We can't demand Jew's to not circumcise their males. Nor to circumcise a proselyte?

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Um, what? Muslim also circumcise and lots of Christians as well....what's that got to do with dual citizenship or the denial of it?

keras said:

There is plenty of verses that prove that the Lords Christian peoples will go to live in all of the Holy Land. The culmination of the whole saga of the Middle East region.

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I did not ask for you to repeat your whole thesis across this thread again - as if I had not read it before in 5 years of you doing this! (It's full of the very errors I have critiqued above.)

I asked you to go back and look at the EXACT verses I quoted in their EXACT context - and you refuse to do so.
Because if you acknowledge those prophecies were about THOSE nations - then what else is?
Because if the promises of returning to Jerusalem were to THAT generation a lifetime AFTER THAT exile - then what else is?

But you are right in that sometimes Isaiah refers to more future focussed, gospel focussed, sometimes eternally focussed realities.
And sometimes he does not! Sometimes he's reminding Israel of what is coming for them - there and then - with Assyria and Babylon. Context is a thing! So by the time we get to Isaiah 13 we've already been warned that Israel is going to be destroyed, and by whom.

Yet Isaiah 13 goes onto say that the instruments of God's judgement against Israel will themselves be judged.

13 A prophecy against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:
2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded those I prepared for battle;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath—
those who rejoice in my triumph.
4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The Lord Almighty is mustering
an army for war.
5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens—
the Lord and the weapons of his wrath—
to destroy the whole country.
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every heart will melt with fear.
8 Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.
9 See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
12 I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
14 Like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep without a shepherd,
they will all return to their own people,
they will flee to their native land.
15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.
17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants,
nor will they look with compassion on children.
19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the pride and glory of the Babylonians,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 She will never be inhabited
or lived in through all generations;
there no nomads will pitch their tents,
there no shepherds will rest their flocks.
21 But desert creatures will lie there,
jackals will fill her houses;
there the owls will dwell,
and there the wild goats will leap about.
22 Hyenas will inhabit her strongholds,
jackals her luxurious palaces.
Her time is at hand,
and her days will not be prolonged.


Babylon's destruction = Day of the Lord.
Babylon's destruction = rise of the Medes.
Bablyon's destruction = sun and moon and stars not giving their light.
Babylon's destruction = as thorough as God's DIRECT judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah - but through the Medes. (Persians.)

So given how clear this is, how do you know your other "Dark Sun" passages are about Isaiah's unimaginably far, far future - when here he is clearly writing about the Assyrians (in previous chapters) and Babylonians and Persians?

More on that context

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Why is no one freaking out about our Muslim Administrator of the Centers of Medicare and Medicaid Services?

jonojim1337 said:

So what?

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Historical context. The mosaic law was given 430 years after Abraham.

“Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as one would in referring to many, but rather as in referring to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

As Ye might say, "MAGA doesn't care about deaf people."

SabbathBlessings said:

Yet we are told the test about knowing Him

The Test of Knowing Him​

1 John2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

I think people are taking a lot of prerogatives that only belong to God to decided if we should keep or not keep His commandments or edit the Words that were written by God as if we know better than He. There is a reason God placed the 4th commandment in with the other 9 commandments as well as placing His seal in the 4th commandment Exo20:11 and maybe it doesn't make sense to the majority, but that doesn't change it is the Testimony of God Exo31:18 His written and spoken will. Adam and Even didn’t think it mattered to eat from one tree, it’s just a tree, but it got them kicked out of the garden. People take this same approach to the Holy day of the Lord Isa58::13 , it caused almost a whole nation not to enter their promise land Eze20:15-16 we are told not to follow in that same path of disobedience Heb4:11. God says He does not change and we have to get through this James2:11-12 Ecc12:13-14 2Cor5:10 before we can enter into our Promise Land Rev22:14

I think a lot of people take the approach what is the least I need to do to get into heaven, so I can live how I want and receive His blessings. God only blessed and sanctified one day Exo20:11 Gen2:3 and blesses and sanctifies us when we obey Him Isa56:2 Eze20:12, no Scripture say that the blessings that belong to the day God gave it to is transferred over to a day that we find more convenient for us because its what the majority are doing, no one was ever the majority who were following God in Scripture, it was always a remnant and still is Rev12:17KJV , He said it won’t be in the majority in last days either Mat7:13-14 , sadly one is missing the the bigger picture regarding this commandment, God just wants to spend time with us and what day better to do so that comes with His power of blessings and sanctification that only God can give Isa59:2 Eze20:12, and its more about the power behind who is asking to keep it and who is saying the opposite of God. God said Remember Exo20:8-11 another voice told us to forget. Which voice will we listen to. Whoever we obey is who we serve or worship Rom6:16 Mark-:3-14 Mark7:7-13

Regarding Ellen White and Steps to Christ she very much speaks about the Law, I had ChatGpt summarize it using only Steps to Christ

---

1. The Law Reveals Sin and Our Need of Christ​

Chapter: “Repentance”

White explains that people do not truly see their sin until they understand God’s Law:


She echoes Romans 3:20; 7:7, showing that the Law functions as a mirror, not a savior.

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2. The Law Is Perfect and Unchangeable​

Chapter: “Faith and Acceptance”

White is explicit that faith in Christ does not cancel obedience:


She rejects the idea that grace abolishes the Law, aligning with Matthew 5:17 and Romans 3:31.

---

3. Obedience Is the Fruit of Salvation, Not the Cause​

Chapter: “The Test of Discipleship”

This is one of the clearest discussions of God’s Law:


She directly connects love, faith, and obedience, reflecting John 14:15 and 1 John 2:3–4.

---

4. The Law Cannot Save—but It Still Binds​

Chapter: “Growing Up Into Christ”

White explains sanctification in relation to the Law:


Christ alone provides forgiveness and power to obey—consistent with Galatians 3:24.

---

5. Christ’s Life Is the Living Expression of the Law​

Throughout the book, White presents Christ as the embodiment of the Law:


This reflects Psalm 40:8 and Hebrews 10:7.

---

Summary (Very Important)​

In Steps to Christ, Ellen G. White teaches that:

• ✔ God’s Law is holy, just, and good
• ✔ The Law reveals sin
• ✔ The Law cannot save
• ✔ Salvation is by grace through faith
• ✔ Obedience is the evidence of genuine conversion
• ✘ Grace does not abolish the Law

---

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Are you depending on your “obedience” to save you? If so, do believe you have obeyed enough to merit God’s salvation?

The AI summery of Steps To Christ is not a substitute for reading it. If you are not saved by your obedience to the law how can you be lost by your disobedience?

I think you under the misconception that righteousness by faith does away with the law. That is not the case. It establishes the law.

Hentenza said:

It is. But the law was given to Moses at Sinai not to Abraham. God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision.

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So what?

linux.poet said:

No, that is a non-sequitur because the authority of Caesar no longer exists. The Roman Empire has long since collapsed and is no longer a functional political entity. The few remaining denarii are in private collections or museums. It is absurd to consider rendering non-functioning currency to a nonexistent government.

Romans 13 and the principle expressed in Luke apply to all governments a Christian might find themselves under. That is the point behind such passages.

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That’s just wrong and the authority of Caesar does not rely on the number of denari in circulation.

eleos1954 said:

Angels were not given the capability to procreate ... if they were what stopped or is stopping them from doing it now? No such thing as a angel/human hybrid.

Genesis 6

1Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

It states here they were MEN (mankind) men/man not angels.

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The giants were mighty men not the fallen angels that became flesh, and bred with women. 1 Enoch written before Noahs flood is the gold standard if it goes against 1 Enoch like Cave of tresures, and Augustine did it is wrong.

jonojim1337 said:

Mosaic law applies to the Israelites under the old covenant

It’s just the terms of the contract.

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It is. But the law was given to Moses at Sinai not to Abraham. God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision.

You've got Revelation 6 all wrong.
Nerfing this to a mere CME is appalling!
Read. In. CONTEXT!

What is happening here? What is the question - the concern of the passage?

Revelation 6


The concern is justice.
It's not just Babylon, or Rome, or some modern nation (in the never ending futurist game of "pin-the-tail on the anti-Christ.")
It's universal.
It's judging the 'inhabitants of the whole earth.'



This is the same Apocalyptic Symbolism for the challenging of worldly kingdoms and authorities - but escalated to a whole new scale - with stars falling, the heavens receding, and mountains and islands being moved!



Note that they are NOT saying "Oh no - look what the sun has done!"
They're saying, "Oh no - GOD is here!"

Your Sci-Fi reading of this THEOLOGICAL passage may as well cut half the verses out of it, given the way your Hollywood reading nerfs it so much!

eclipsenow said:

Revelation is a waltz, not a timeline.

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This idea is disproven by the many references to time periods in Revelation.

eclipsenow said:

It's a sermon on suffering that repeatedly reminds us the Lord will return one day and sort all this out, not a future timetable to decode like some B-Grade Dan Brown novel.

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Revelation is the best information we have about our future. It is a sequence of events, interspersed with flashbacks. The truths of our future.
I would say that Dan Brown uses the Revelation format to peddle his fictional books.

Hentenza said:

No they were given under the Mosaic law. Abraham did not receive the 10 commandments.

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Mosaic law applies to the Israelites under the old covenant

It’s just the terms of the contract.

eclipsenow said:

It depends on the verses we are looking at.

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There is plenty of verses that prove that the Lords Christian peoples will go to live in all of the Holy Land. The culmination of the whole saga of the Middle East region.

At the great gathering into the promised Land, as described to us by the prophets, the Lord’s righteous people: every faithful Christian, will march proudly to music as they enter their heritage. Ephesians 1:10-14 Their Redeemer and Deliverer is waiting to show them His favour, He will guide and protect them, in the same manner as He did with their ancestors during the Exodus from Egypt. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 The Land will blossom and flourish, Isaiah 35:1-10 and they will live there in peace and security, excepting for a 3½ year period of world control by the Anti- Christ ‘beast’. Rev 13:5
After that will come the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. Matthew 24:30-31

Isaiah 30:18 Yet the Lord is waiting to show you His favour, He yearns to have pity on you. Happy are those who wait on Him!

Ezekiel 20:34-38 By My strong arm and outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from among the peoples and gather you from the lands where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into a desert place and bring you into judgement, as I did with your ancestors out of Egypt. I shall pass you under the rod of judgement and count you as you enter Israel. Those who revolt and rebel against Me will not enter the Land.

‘outpoured wrath’ refers to the next prophesied event – the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath and vengeance, that destroys His enemies and cleanses the Land by fire. The Christian Israelites will then march into and take over all that area promised, so long ago to Abraham.

Ezekiel 36:8 You: Land of Israel – grow your trees and yield your fruit, for the homecoming of My people, Israel, is near.

Micah 4:6 On that Day, I shall gather those who are lost, I shall assemble the dispersed.

Micah 2:12 I will assemble you, the whole House of Jacob. [now every faithful Christian] I will gather you together with those remaining in Israel and herd them like sheep in a fold.

Jeremiah 3:22 Come back, you apostate people and I shall heal you. Here we are, our God, we are coming back to You.

Jeremiah 31:8-9 See how I bring My people from the ends of the earth, a vast company – they come home, weeping and repentant. I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.

Isaiah 43:19 I am about to do something new, can you see it? I will make a path for My people.

Isaiah 58:11 The Lord will guide you, He will satisfy your needs in the desert and give strength.

Isaiah 62:10 Pass through the gates, clear a road for My people and mark their way.

Isaiah 42:16 Without fail, I shall lead the blind and guide My people along paths unknown to them.

Psalms 68:7-9 The Lord, leading His people, marching through the desert- the earth shakes and rain pours down. Isaiah 44:3

Isaiah 30:29 For you there will be joyful singing, as you march into Israel, the Holy Land of God.

Isaiah 40:26-31 Lift your eyes to the heavens, consider your Creator, He leads His people out – each summoned by name, none are missing. He gives strength to the exhausted and those who look to Him will not faint, they march as on eagles wings.

Obadiah 19:21 My people will possess the Negev, Samaria, Northern and southern Jordan and all the coastlands of the Mediterranean.

Isaiah 49:8-11 The Lord says: In the time of My favour, on the Day of Deliverance, I will come to your aid, you are My people destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land. Go free now and in the Land you will find food and water in plenty. It will not be too hot when the One who loves them will guide them along highways. My people, coming from all parts of the world, will shout for joy as they enter their Land. For God has comforted His people in their distress. Reference REB. Some verses abridged.

truthuprootsevil said:

Constantine changed the day of rest / worship from the seventh day to the 1st day.

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No. The early church worshipped on Sunday not Saturday as it was the day our Lord was resurrected. There is plenty of patriarchal evidence as early as the first century.

HARK! said:

I've said my piece. You've said yours. Unless you have any credible evidence to add to the discussion; I'll leave discernment, on what has been presented, up to the readers.

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Let the record show that HARK failed to show how two numbers can fail to be part of the ten- year average for the 30s as reported on the chart.

jonojim1337 said:

The ten commandments were given to the Israelites under the covenant of Abraham.

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No they were given under the Mosaic law. Abraham did not receive the 10 commandments.

Strong in Him said:

All could be said to be celestial signs.

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More pretentious tripe.
When many Prophesies say the sun will be darkened on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath, a perfectly feasible occurrence; then why deny it?

Strong in Him said:

did we miss something?

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I was referring to the 24th Day of Kislev, mentioned 3 times by Haggai. Which was the 14th December 2025.
It is a significant day in history and yet to happen. Seems we have got away with it once again.

1Tonne said:

Scripture describes this as a conscious, ongoing judgment, not mere annihilation.

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It seems you do. I grew up on a farm and have yet to see tares survive a fire. If scripture would have meant writhing while toasted in an oven, it would have said so. What the adversarial spirit has corrupted and remained unrepentant shall be destroyed.

I expanded the chart to include the two witnesses activities down at the bottom. If you study this chart, you will have great overview of what is going to take place during the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Postvieww said:

We are not yet living as a world in Christs kingdom. It was God himself that separated the nations and created the frame work for different cultures. It is nonsense to try define this presently fallen world by trying to use kingdom principles that Christ himself has not yet implemented on this entire planet.

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Is it non-sense to follow the kingdom principles as articulated by Jesus?

A few false images that have worked their way into the church.

civilwarbuff said:

Sounds as if the D's are willing to partner up with criminals in order to win elections. Isn't that something that can be prosecuted under RICO statutes?

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Is that your answer to my question?

mindlight said:

I am not an atheist and shallow and broken spirituality is the root cause of Europe's problems. We are materially rich but hollow shells because of the crisis of faith that has emptied out the heart of Europe and denuded it of all power.

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Which problems are these? I live in the UK and I don’t see anything different. Exactly what problems are you referring to?