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The Liturgist · 2025-12-06T22:39:01-0600

peter2 said:
Mary is the woman that tells Gabriel yes, likely assents this yes is valid for her son too, at least as long as Jesus 's not given the signal for the end of her protection, when she, with Joseph, finally discover him in the temple.

I feel it like Jesus' protection switches then from hers to God's, and she tells "yes" to this change as well.

Which makes me assume she tells yes to the death of Jesus too. Actually, i'm not sure, and thus is it i have a question please :
Hadn't there been this episode of his 12 year od in the Temple, wouldn't have Mary tried and avoid the cross for him ?

And, second question :
what makes me subsequently wonder whether she'd not guessed about resurrection is this trustful yes of her, for her giving birth to the son of God, for her accepting God's protecting takeover of the 12 year old Jesus, and finally this death, is (at least in my opinion) to make sense or consistency with the plan God gives through Gabriel's initial speech.
So, do you think, please, she could have guessed about resurrection, since it seems it was the only option that could make sense for her after the cross ?
(Actually up back to recently, i considered the three days for the finding Jesus in the Temple was linked with the three days for resurrection, but i just saw this as a mean for her to not fall in despair, whereas i question myself now up to what preceeds)

Sorry i wonder whether i shouldn't have post this thread in christian apologetics..

Remember, Jesus Christ is God, the Logos (John 1:1-18), the second person of the Trinity, incarnate of the Virgin Mary, in her immaculate womb putting on our humanity in order to restore and glorify it on the Cross.

That He was God was known to some, clearly, for at the Visitation of the Theotokos, when the Blessed Virgin Mary visited her cousin St. Elizabeth, mother of St. John the Baptist, St. Elizabeth referred to her as “The mother of My Lord.” Likewise we have St. Symeon at the start of Luke chapter 2 seeing the infant Christ and singing “Let thy servant now depart in peace, having seen the salvation of Israel…”

And we know that the Blessed Virgin Mary did work out who her son was, from the Gospel According to John - the Wedding Feast in Cana, where St. Mary said to the servants, and to us, the reader, “do what he commands you to do.” Thus, the people at the wedding feast got the best wine, and we get something even better- salvation in Christ.

Factotum · 2025-12-06T22:36:35-0600

Bradskii said:
... we've now got to the point where people are saying that people dealing in drugs should be summarily killed...

In this case, "People" = terrorists.

I think that changes a lot of things not mentioned in your post where the excerpt came from.

RDKirk · 2025-12-06T22:34:48-0600

Factotum said:
Yes, I agree with that premise.
Can you tell me how you process that when "the law is" consisting of our Dept's of State/Treasury/Justice legally classifying those unpriviled belligerents as terrorists?

Terrorists are classified as "unprivileged belligerents." I quoted what the law says about how they should be handled. The only difference is that they may be bound for trial rather than held as prisoners of war.

What are you asking?

The Liturgist · 2025-12-06T22:30:52-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
To add Paul said traditions can cheat one if they conform to principles of this world and not according to Christ. To the point you made, Christ made clear the case applies when placing traditions over the commandments of God. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13. The Sabbath is a commandment of God that comes with the power of God’s blessings Exo20:11 Isa59:2 and God’s sanctification Gen2:3 Eze20:12, why anyone would want to trade this for the basic principles of the world, I will never understand.

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Thank you for your comment. You’re right that Paul warns against “the tradition of men” in Colossians 2:8—but he also exhorts believers to “stand firm in the traditions” given by the Apostles, whether by word or letter (2 Thess. 2:15). So clearly, not all tradition is equal. There is a distinction between the Tradition of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is followed by Nicene Christians such as the Orthodox and SDA, since we both adhere to the Nicene creed and the 27 book New Testament, and the traditions of men, such as, for example, Christian Science refusing medical treatment and interpolating the Bible with the heretical writings of Mary Baker Eddy.

The key distinction is between man-made traditions that contradict God’s law (as Christ critiques in Matthew 15 and Mark 7), and the Apostolic Tradition, which is rooted in Christ and the Gospel itself.

Regarding the Sabbath: no one is “trading” it for worldly philosophy. The Orthodox Church honors the Sabbath as sacred—especially on Great and Holy Saturday, when we commemorate Christ resting in the tomb. But we also worship on Sunday, the Day of Resurrection, as did the Apostles (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2)

This is not worldliness. This is the Church doing exactly what Christ commanded: remembering His death and proclaiming His resurrection.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-06T22:29:40-0600

Studyman said:
The Jesus "of the Bible" said to "Take Heed" specifically of the teaching of a "Many" who come in His Name, teaching that HE is the Prophesied Christ, and He also warns about "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but disobey His/His Father's Commandments (He Said said they are One).

Since I was a child, I have heard from the promoters of this world's religions, that God gives men His Holy Spirit first, then we obey whatever of God's Laws that suit our fancy, claiming that it is the Spirit of God that writes on our hearts whatever Laws we choose to honor God in. This is a popular and seductive religious philosophy, as each religious sect of this world promote different Laws, philosophies, doctrines, etc., and we just pick which one we like, and adopt it for ourselves. The Spirit of Christ in Jeremiah warns about this religious system also.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

So because I am instructed by the Apostles of Christ to "test the spirits" and prove all things, I read what the Bible actually teaches.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Peter said this;

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, "We" (The Body of Christ) ought to "obey God" rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are "his witnesses" of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, "whom God hath given" "to them" that obey him.

Imagine my surprise when I read what is actually written. But this is only one verse, so I sought out the Word's of the Christ Himself.

John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus also told me of a future judgment when many men will speak to Jesus face to face. Here are His Words.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied "in thy name"? and "in thy name" have cast out devils? and "in thy name" done many wonderful works? 23 And then "will I profess unto them", I never knew you: "depart from me", ye that work iniquity.

There is a lot more written concerning being learned of the Father, and examples of Faithful men who were given by God, His Holy Spirit, like Zacharias and his wife in Luke 1, and Simeon and Anna in Luke 2.

So I would caution you concerning the adoption of the popular religious philosophy of this world, that God gives men His Holy Spirit first, "Before" they Yield themselves" servants to obey God as Paul speaks to in Romans 6.

Again, when a man reads what is actually written in the God Inspired Holy Scriptures concerning Abraham, a completely different doctrine is shown.

Here is the actual exchange as recorded in the Holy Bible.

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And (Then) I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

And later on, God said this to Abraham;

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and "be thou perfect". 2 And (Then) I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

And later when the Blessing was being shown to Abraham son by God Himself, here is why God said the Blessing was coming.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God didn't say, "Because I gave Abraham My Spirit so he could obey Me", as the "many" promoters of this world's religious system would have me believe.

So I would caution again, about adopting the philosophies and traditions of this world, promoted by the "Many" who come in Christ's Name that HE specifically warned about. Paul said the Holy Scriptures were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I advocate that a man "Live By" Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God, as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs.

Again, it seems prudent to trust God's Word in these matters. And God told us why Abraham was blessed. All we need is belief in God.

I get how seductive this popular religious philosophy of this world is, that Jesus came so you could sin against God and it doesn't matter.. But Jesus Himself said, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish". And Paul said;

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul said we "Yield ourselves" to who we obey. And Sin still leads to death, still after several years after Jesus Ascended.

So again, there is a huge disconnect between what this world's religions have taught you, and what is actually written.

And it isn't like Jesus didn't see this coming, given all the warning about men "who profess to know God, but are disobedient to Him".

It just seems prudent to trust what is written, over the preaching of some random man who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

But what happens when a man considers the Words of Paul after he said this? Shouldn't a man consider all of Paul's Words? Here, let me show you what HE actually said.

Rom. 7: 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul told the Body of Christ:

Rom. 6: 12 "Let not sin therefore reign" in your mortal body, "that ye should obey it" in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members (mind, walk, works) as instruments of righteousness "unto God".

Can you not see the huge disconnect between what you are preaching, and what the Bible actually says? The Bible says we are judged by our works. Isn't this why Paul teaches to "Yield ourselves" to God?

Again, that's a great marketing strategy for a religious business or sect, to get lots of contributing members. But the Bible doesn't teach this philosophy at all.

So you still love to transgress God's Commandments, but are free to sin now and not be judged for it? Again, that is a very seductive philosophy. But when a person actually reads what is written:

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If I were you, I would place your trust in the actual Scriptures, ""for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". It would be awful to become like those "Christians" in Matthew 7 who called Jesus Lord, Lord, and taught in His Name.

As I have previously stated, there is only one true gospel and only One true Church. God said "that it's not possible to deceive His elect. And I am an elect Saint of God, so I will never be deceived by the doctrine of demons, or a false version of the gospel.
When God opens the eyes of His elect, we are then given the gift of faith, which enables us to place our trust in Him, and His Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.

So you need not be concerned about me being deceived, nor should you be concerned about my not keeping the Father's commandments. God never expected me to keep any of His commandments, because He knows it's impossible to keep any of them.
This is where the Lord Jesus steps in and keeps all the commandments and keeps the whole of the law, on my behalf. He took all of my past, present and future sins upon Himself and He suffered the punishment which I deserved. In return He imputed His righteousness' upon me.

So, it's not me obeying Gods commandments, (since it's impossible), it's the indwelling Holy Spirit who leads me in obedience and truth. Gods elect don't become perfect, in this life. But we are being sanctified and gradually transformed, to become more and more Christlike as time goes by. God began the work of salvation and He is the one who sustains us throughout our journey and He brings us home safely. It has nothing to do with our ability to save ourself as your version of the gospel teaches.

You won't find a single verse in the bible, that supports your version of the gospel. None of those verses you listed, support your "saved by works" version of the gospel.

Factotum · 2025-12-06T22:29:39-0600

RDKirk said:
Those pirates, drug runners, et cetera, are considered "unprivileged belligerents." ... The law is what the law is, and this is what the law is:

Yes, I agree with that premise.
Can you tell me how you process that when "the law is" consisting of our Dept's of State/Treasury/Justice legally classifying those unpriviled belligerents as terrorists?

RDKirk · 2025-12-06T22:27:47-0600

stevevw said:
Actually Cotton is backing Admiral Mitch Bradley a decorated officer who was in charge and stated it was a justified strike as they were still in the game.

Sure he is. They're both Trump's guys.

PloverWing · 2025-12-06T22:18:32-0600

comana said:
Many are also born dual citizens so which should they denounce?

This is the context in which I've encountered dual citizenship -- people born as dual citizens. A number of my college friends, for example, were children of American missionaries serving overseas, so they were citizens both of the US (because of their parents) and of the country in which they were born.

Bradskii · 2025-12-06T22:17:45-0600

Factotum said:
I need the most available vital info in order to fairly answer fatuous questions, sir.

oh yeah
btw

In that example, will your drug trafficking perp be "walking down the street" to go deliver enough Schedule 1 drugs to kill multitudes of Americans?

I read a book a few weeks ago called One Second After. It's about what happens in the US, primarily in one small town, when some unamed enemy sets off a number of Electro Magnetic Pulse weapons over the country. All electrics are fried. So next to no transport, lighting, power, comms...almost everything is dead.

It is chilling how convincing the collapse in 'civilised' behaviour is portrayed and the rule of law goes out of the window. New rules are the norm. Brutal laws. Severe punishments. People who were upstanding members of the community revert to being judge, jury and executioner.

In one case a couple of relatively young guys are caught stealing and dealing drugs. Their 'trial' lasts a few minutes. The sentence is carried out when they are dragged out to the local basketball court and shot in the head in front of cheering God fearin' town folk.

I was honestly chilled reading that at the time at how society can revert to carrying out such barbaric acts so quickly. It's positively medieval.

You're already there, my friend.

NxNW · 2025-12-06T22:11:57-0600

stevevw said:
We only have to look at this recent period with the rise of political assassinations and violence. These are the symptoms of those lies and rhetoric that cultivates hate and division.

I'm glad you agree that the recent Republican violence is unacceptable.

stevevw said:
The Lefts relentless almost deranged fixation on Trump is glaring.

He is a convicted fraud and rapist, after all.

stevevw said:
I don't trust one word they say and I don't care what they say. They have disqualified themselves and have no moral ground to stand on.

Compared to Trump the convicted fraud and rapist?

Have you asked Stormy Daniels about this?

Factotum · 2025-12-06T22:11:12-0600

Bradskii said:
Well, lucky you. You're actually on a Christian site, so someone may be along shortly to help you with that.

Yes sir, you did come along shortly to help. Thank you!

NxNW · 2025-12-06T22:06:53-0600

civilwarbuff said:
Write to your Senator and CongressCritter: Demand that Trump stop killing innocent drug transporters.
Support your local narcotics dealers. After all, they are just trying to make a living and they have families to support too!!!

After all, Trump is pardoning drug dealers these days.

Multifavs · 2025-12-06T22:05:17-0600

My crow and dove are ready for Christmas! ^_^

pastorwaris · 2025-12-06T21:58:00-0600

Pastor Kamran Michael was brutally killed yesterday in Pakistan in front of his daughter. The attacker shot him multiple times to make sure he died, simply to stop him from proclaiming the Good News of Jesus. I just spoke with his mother-in-law on the phone to offer condolences, and it was heartbreaking to hear more details.

Pastor Kamran was the father of two daughters and one son. These young children all love the Lord. A few months ago, he was shot in the leg in Islamabad, where he served his church and congregation. Extremists had been pursuing him and threatening him everywhere he went. He moved from Islamabad to Gujranwala, but they were still not satisfied. They wanted to stop his passion for preaching the Gospel.

This is heartbreaking. The man of God, Pastor Kamran Michael, has given his life for his faith in Jesus. This martyr for Christ has finished his race. Please keep his children, his wife, and all the grieving family in your prayers.

Pastor Waris

Tom D · 2025-12-06T21:57:42-0600

Johamn had everything: good income, status, and a life of extravagance. A celebrated pharmacist turned businessman, he lived in a world
where nothing came cheap. He scoffed at meals below $20, considering them an insult to his refined palate.

One night, to celebrate securing a new contract, Johann and his business partner Hans resolved to find a truly fitting restaurant in Vienna——
one that could satisfy Johann’s uncompromising standards. But his sophisticated palates and exacting demands soon turned the quest into a prolonged ordeal, dragging them across the city. At one point, Hans muttered, “You’re not choosing a wife, Johann. It’s only dinner.” Johann ignored him, busy inspecting every menu he came across.

After four relentless hours of scrutinizing menus and dismissing venues, they finally settled on a lavish establishment that seemed worthy of their standards. Several ornate dishes were ordered, but the triumph was short-lived. One bite into the first plate and Johann’s face soured; he launched into complaints before the manager, demanding to leave. The manager, unmoved, insisted on payment. Johann paid for all the dishes ordered—grudgingly—and stormed out.

Undeterred, the hunt resumed.

Another hour of wandering through Vienna’s glittering streets brought them to yet another upscale location, one that promised refinement beyond reproach. With aged whiskey poured and expensive cigars lit, Johann and Hans prepared to celebrate triumphantly. Yet scarcely 19 minutes had passed when a waiter approached with blunt finality: the restaurant was closing. Their indulgence ended not in satisfaction, but in dismissal, as they were ushered out into the night.

"Why kick us out?" Johann stared at the waiter in disbelief.
"We are closing---it's 1 o'clock already!" The waiter replied.

They staggered out into the city streets, their judgment clouded by the alcohol and disappointment. They didn’t notice the black van parked nearby until it was too late.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The van screeched forward, headlights blinding. Before Johann could react, rough hands yanked him back. A hood was shoved over his head, muffling Hans’s protests as they struggled. Their kidnappers moved swiftly, bundling Johann into the van while leaving Hans behind. Johann’s world blurred into darkness.

Johann’s new reality began in a dim room in the beautiful rural town of Bad Goisern on Lake Halstatt. His two kidnappers' goal was to demand a ransom of 2 million. The two kidnappers were Robert and Rune—known to their friends as Rob and Run. They sat slouched in the dim room, their cigarettes dangling lazily from their fingers...

RileyG · 2025-12-06T21:52:35-0600

He was baptized Episcopalian as an infant even though neither of his parents are Episcopal.

May God bless him in his love!

RileyG · 2025-12-06T21:51:18-0600

Delvianna said:
Good for him! Stick to your guns no matter what happens! He shouldn't have to apologize for what he said. Was it a lot? Sure... but children are involved. I can understand the outrage. Forcing him to apologize, is forcing him to go back on his religious beliefs and for a country that is supposed to be freedom of religion, that's pretty anti-religious. The Pastor didn't cause harm, he just said stuff people didn't like and peacefully protested.

Agreed. Children don’t need to be exposed to adult material. Drag queens belong in private gay bars- not a children story’s hour.

fhansen · 2025-12-06T21:40:45-0600

joechristianwarrior said:
Yeah, that seems like a reasonable explanation. The 'brain-washing' of capitalist values starts young, and doesn't stop when we grow old. We really do need to be "born again" to start to change our perspective.

Yes, and it's not just capitalist values. Coveteousness is as old as the Fall of man. It comes down to this bottom line: do we love, first of all, as God both models and calls us to and as only union with Him can accomplish in us, or do we carry on the family tradition of self above all else which requires-which is intrinsic to-remaining apart from Him and wallowing in our greed, our sin, and the pride that drives it.

BPPLEE · 2025-12-06T21:40:34-0600

The Barbarian said:
The election. Biden beat Trump convincingly. Yes, Trump whined and threw tantrums, even incited an insurrection to stop the certification of the election. But Biden beat him.

And imagine the howls of MAGA if Joe Biden had kept falling asleep in meetings as Trump has. Dozy Don is clearly not as sharp as Biden was during his presidency.

Login to view embedded media
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Executive summary
Video and photos from a Dec. 2, 2025 White House Cabinet meeting show President Donald Trump with his eyes closed several times and at least once fully closed while officials spoke; multiple outlets describe him as “fighting sleep” or “appearing to doze,” while the White House press secretary said he was “listening attentively and running the entire” meeting [1] [2]. News organizations counted repeated moments of drooping or closed eyes during the roughly three‑hour meeting; some outlets quantified the behavior (for example, reporting “nearly six minutes” of eyes shut in aggregate) while others simply described multiple episodes [3] [4].

https://factually.co/fact-checks/politics/did-trump-fall-asleep-in-cabinet-meeting-d5699b

Obviously, Donald Trump has declined significantly since Joe Biden beat him in a presidential election. But it was obvious even before the last election...

Trump was brutally mocked as “Dozy Don” by California Gov. Gavin Newsom in October after he appeared to drift off at an event discussing the threat his administration said is posed by Antifa activists, in revenge for the president’s regular jibes against “Sleepy Joe” throughout his presidency.

Trump previously appeared to drift off during his criminal trial in Manhattan in May 2024 when the strain of fighting four indictments while campaigning for the White House seemed to get the better of him.

Fox News doctor tries to spin sleepy Donald Trump by comparing him to Thomas Edison

President drowsed for an estimated six minutes during Tuesday’s cabinet meeting

www.independent.co.uk

Too bad that you only see this in Trump and dismiss all the videos of Biden’s gaffes and wondering around lost

durangodawood · 2025-12-06T21:40:16-0600

Servus said:
Millions of babies killed:

View attachment 374097

Two drug smugglers killed:

View attachment 374098

^^^Failure to deal with the moral problem presented by the current topic.

The Barbarian · 2025-12-06T21:39:54-0600

BPPLEE said:
I fell asleep watching that.

But you're not the president of the United States. It matters.

Factotum · 2025-12-06T21:39:45-0600

Bradskii said:
...What exactly is the type of country you want to live in?

I need the most available vital info in order to fairly answer fatuous questions, sir.

oh yeah
btw

In that example, will your drug trafficking perp be "walking down the street" to go deliver enough Schedule 1 drugs to kill multitudes of Americans?

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