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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

How much of your income are you willing to have taken for taxpayer funded healthcare.

Yes, I am generalizing, because I believe a complete overhaul of the entire health care system is necessary to help address the particular issues you cite.
That's going to require a complete overhaul of the current American way of life.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

So even though Genesis 17:14 literally says you will be cut off if you are not physically circumcised, you do not agree because you think salvation was always by faith without works?

Alright then.
I guess you can make the argument that excluded from his/her community meant excluded from salvation but then you would be arguing that salvation is by works and that is not biblical. Scriptures are clear that Abraham was saved by his faith not by his works.

The Abrahamic covenant is a foreshadow of the law which would come 430 years later. The requirement of every male being circumcised continued. Paul explains below that one that is not circumcised but keeps the law should be regarded as circumcised and his praised is not from his people but from God.

“For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭25‬-‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
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Another look at the moon landing.

I have never watched that video. It is one of the multitude that Apple Sky has mentioned in her attempts to prove that the moon landings didn't happen.
Dave it’s a most interesting video it concerns a NASA reel accidentally no doubt given to a researcher by mistake which shows clearly the astronauts faking that they are some 130 thousand miles out in deep space when they are still in earths orbit. Why even fake such shots if you are supposedly on the way to the moon. Plenty of time to film the occasion when you be in deep space. As to Apple she does have the right to express her thoughts. The video is called ( A funny thing happened on the way to the moon ) . Not a strange thing happened on the way to the moon as me wrote prior . You do find the evidence at the 32nd minute mark if you choose not to watch the full video. Yours Kathleen.
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How much of your income are you willing to have taken for taxpayer funded healthcare.

Let's not forget that preventative healthcare includes basic things like vaccination (the polio vaccine costs nothing compared to a lifetime of treating someone crippled by polio, for example), early screening for cancer, and other forms of basic screening programmes (many of them aligned with good antenatal care). As I understand it, Americans without health insurance (or adequate health insurance) might not have good access to any of those things.
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Then what do you use to measure the precision at the micron level to ensure it is on line or within the tolerances.
An appropriate measuring device. Maybe you should learn about them and determine which ones might have been available to ancient Egyptian craftsmen.
No its impossible for all humans. If you want to suggest that ancients had some magical sensory perception that allowed them to see beyond normal human vision. That thats ok but its just as far fetched as ancients having sophisticated lathing like modern tech in a time that did not even have the potters wheel.

What did you use to ensure the +/- 0.0001 precision. Which itself seems silly without machining with a set cutter. You have to cut or grind then measure. Cut and grind and rub then measure. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat ect ect ect until you reach that percision.
Now you're beginning to catch on.
Whereas a set lathe with a fixed and stable cutter could achieve the precision by setting the cutters to the right precision without all that hassel. Besides like I said what are you using to measure this micron precision. Do you have special magnifying glasses lol.

Because usually near perfect symmetry is set on the lathe beforehand and then cuts the precise line or depths evenly to take a layer off the vase.

Why are you denying the ancients had some sort of knowledge and tech that allowed them to make magnificant precision works like we do today.
Because they didn't have it, they had to do without.
YOu are yourself denying their craft by suggesting they use tools like measures and grinders and not their bear hands.
That's a bare-face lie and you know it.
I am just extending that same logic and saying if simple tools help the craft do a better job than bear hands and naked eyes. Then better more tech tools will help even better in achieving a higher standard.

Yes thats all I am saying lol. You are agreeing and yet you want to get morally outraged at me for denting ancient craftsman. When you agree with this simple reality and logic. IT doesn't take away from the craft no more than modern art using circular saws, engineering and other tech takes away from art. There is art and there is tech. These are diferent.

Your supporting my point by saying that if we measure as we go we achieve more precision. What is allowing the measuring. A tool, a piece of tech and not the naked eyes or feel. Its not the freehand art but an injection of technical knowhow.
All part of the craft of using hand tools, then and now.
The same logic applies to more advanced tech. If a simple measuring tool helps achieve better precision. Then a more advanced tool such as a lathe that is designed to cut the measure you want in the first place. Rather than measuring as you go.

Same logic just extending and advancing the use of that tech to match the signatres in the vases. Most people have already acknowledge a lathe must have been used.

So why not the next logical step that the more precise the vase is the more better the lathing is. The more advanced the lathing is. To the point where tests show its on par and even better than modern CNC machining.

Lol your doing the same. I am just using the same logic.
No, I don't see any logic. What I do see is a dishonest attempt to win an argument by constantly shifting your assertions about what constitutes "tech."
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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

I agree, we cannot possibly be saved unless we’re drawn. Our difference lies in whether or not a person can refuse to be drawn, or can turn and walk back away after being drawn.
No they can't refuse regeneration, it occurred while they were dead.
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Limited atonement !

As I just posted in the Limited Vs. Unlimited Thread -

The simple reality is that all Christians believe in limited atonement unless they believe in universal salvation for all mankind, in which case, they would not be welcome on this board.

...
Not really ... the atonement is unlimited, the price was paid for all, but the effect on the individuals is limited. It's like all the doors to the jail are open (because of the atonement), yet some prisoners still chooses to stay in jail, so the doors being unlocked don't help them.
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The Brokenness of Christianity

Two Jewish scholars were having a very heated argument. They were actually very aggressive. Then one said that it was time to say the Shema. They stopped the argument and respectfully recited the Shema together. Unity among Christians comes with common focus on the task at hand. If Christians are feeding the poor, helping the sick, and living the gospel, the differences in doctrines are put in their proper place. Discussing doctrine can be good, but unity is in doing the work of the body of Christ.
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The End Time Puzzle

In the 8th century BC, under war in heaven of Venus (the ancient Greek goddess „Athene Pallas“), the planet Mars („Ares“) approached the Earth. Then people clearly saw both satellites – the „horses“ pulling the war chariot of Mars: - „Phobos“ („Fear“, or „Rout“) and „Deimos“ („Horror“); and the Moon (the ancient Greek goddess of discord – „Eris“, or „Discord“), which fatally approached Mars. Sparks of heavenly fire, like soldiers, came out of the body of one of the „horses“ of Mars, entered the city and completely burned the site of ancient Troy to ashes. That under the imagery of this „strong angel“ (see Revelation 10: 1,2 NASB) who steps on the Sea and on the Earth, hides the Moon, displaced from its usual orbit, blood-red and brightly shining, like the sun, as if it were written in the work „Iliad“ by Homer: - „… for they had not all like speech or one language, but their tongues were mingled, and they were a folk summoned from many lands. These were urged on by Ares, and the Greeks by flashing-eyed Athene, and Terror, and Rout, and Discord that rageth incessantly, sister and comrade of man-slaying Ares; she at the first rears her crest but little, yet thereafter planteth her head in heaven, while her feet tread on earth.“ (see the book „The Iliad“, Homer, English Translation by Augustus Taber Murray, Publisher: Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, USA, 1924, Book 4, Lines 438-444)
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The End Time Puzzle

I have read Velikovsky, he has some very interesting facts to tell.
But the forthcoming end times event of the Sixth Seal, will not be a comet bypass. The 1st to the 4th trumpet will be. Revelation 8:2-12

Prophecy is quite specific about what the Lord will use to commence all the end times. It will be an explosion of the suns surface, a Coronal Mass Ejection of unprecedented magnitude; Isaiah 30:26a Which will literally fulfil all the vividly stated Prophesies about that terrible Day.
The thing about a CME, is that it quickly passes, leaving the world to recover and the rest of the Prophesies to take place, up to the glorious Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:14 & 19:11
- Thank You, keras, for this clarification!
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How much of your income are you willing to have taken for taxpayer funded healthcare.

You have generalized what I only claimed as particulars. If the preventative care required (for obesity, smoking, poor diet or drug abuse) is to change one's bad behaviors then there no reason for the collective to pay for a PCP to tell the patient to change behaviors.
If health care were to be provided to everyone through some sort of single payer plan, similar to any of those run by many other countries, all medical issues would be covered, including preventative care. Emphasizing that could easily lead to a decrease in other more expensive chronic conditions, making for a less expensive system overall.

Yes, I am generalizing, because I believe a complete overhaul of the entire health care system is necessary to help address the particular issues you cite.

Exactly what health care procedures do you claim as necessary to alter the unhealthy lifestyles under examination? Does science have a prescription "discipline" or "amp up will power" pill?
I think an increased emphasis on health care being a necessity, rather than an expense that could overwhelm a family's finances, could lead to increased education gained through better and easier access to health care.

Certainly, it's an idea that has a better chance at helping with these issues than the current model, which hasn't.

No. They can stop their unhealthy lifestyles all by themselves.
Sure. But having easy access to health care would help them do that.

Putting up hurdles, such as the need to find a reliable way to afford health insurance, hasn't done that very well, has it?

-- A2SG, all for removing unnecessary hurdles....
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For all eternity - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before God to Worship"

I see in Exodus 31:13-15 that Sabbath is for all generations, and that Sabbath is holy. This declaration is not conditional on what any are doing.

Most certainly you shall keep my Sabbaths; for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Yahweh.

Sabbath is holy to you. Sabbath is holy to Yahweh. Jesus spoke of Sabbath saying man was not made for Sabbath, but Sabbath is made for man. It is the day of rest for all, humans and their animals. God wanted a day of rest for all, on the same day of the week together.

I think you put your finger on the problem, from my perspective. It is not so much the fact that the Sabbath is holy, but what people do (or don't do) on the Sabbath. Some folks have made a shibboleth of the Sabbath, insisting that engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities are required. However, the Sabbath was designated specifically as a day of rest and not of activity.

That is not what was being shown, though. The passage says the Sabbath is holy, your perspective is that it is not so much the fact that the Sabbath is holy. I see the conflict between those things. It would just be one of the other. Why should the passage of what Yahweh God said be disregarded for this perspective? But I am talking about the day of rest, rather than congregating, though I have no objection to the congregating. At this point though because of my vulnerability I avoid going to crowded circumstances, and this will be the case whether it Sunday or Saturday.
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Trump sends troops to the 'warzone' of Portland...

They're not doing their jobs,
No, they are literally doing their job. Trump is asking them to do their job. Did you somehow believe that ICE isnt supposed to pick up illegals?
But the only thing we can be required to give to those officers and agents is obdedience.
Yes, never said otherwise.
Respect has to be earned. It shows poor moral character to give it away for free.
They have earned the respect doing their job. What people.are doing is showing disrespect BECAUSE they are doing their job. It shows very poor character to disrespect someone who is doing their job. The agents have earned the respect by doing what they are supposed to be doing. Just because you and others dont want them to do their job or don't like that they are doing certain aspects of their job, doesn't mean you should disrespect them. Its bad character.
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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Lotta really dubious stuff in the Revelation, IMO. Kinda hard to reconcile our Lord sd we see him in the Gospels and epistles with the radically different person we see in the Apocolypse. The Savior of the World vs. the Exterminator of Humanity, Quite a jarring contrast.

Yo still have the same problem that all damnationists have with ECT; the assumption that everyone lives forever by default, Nowhere does Scripture say any such thing, Your lot find yourselves in the curious position of believing that God gives the damed the "gift" of eternal life so as to be able to torture them forever. We're told quite explicitly that the wages of sin is death, but central assumption of damnationism is that the damned Iive eternally in torment. One or both of those assertions must be untrue.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, Creator and Sustained of everything that exists. Jesus created the lake of fire for the Devil and His Demons, but we see sinners joining them there as well.

Jesus is obviously not the Saviour of the whole world, He only came to save those the Father gave Him. We know this, because Jesus will cast the majority of mankind into hell.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jesus didn't come to bring peace the world, why would He come to make peace with the Prince of this world (Satan). No He came as a sword, to pit son against father and daughter against mother. He came to divide the world, the result is we only have two kinds of people in the world, "the children of the Devil and Gods children. There's no "in between neutral" people in this war.

There is a raging war for your soul going on all over the world, never mind nuclear weapons, which can kill your body then have no further power over you, but fear God who can cast both body and soul into hell fire.

We can't wish hell away, just because it's too awful to accept, we can't force God to change His ways.
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Trump sends troops to the 'warzone' of Portland...

Actually its both that bothers us. Its the disrespect that often leads to violence.

In my view its wrong to disrespect the officers and agents who are just doing their jobs. Wrong doesn’t mean illegal. Those are two different things.

But it does say something about the moral character of those who are doing that. It shows poor character.
They're not doing their jobs, their doing Trump's. But the only thing we can be required to give to those officers and agents is obdedience. Respect has to be earned. It shows poor moral character to give it away for free.
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Why vegetarian? - please move or remove if not appropriate

Creation's Design: A Vegetarian Diet

In the beginning Adam and Eve ate a plant-based diet and had access to the tree of life.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Even after the fall Adam and Eve had a plant-based diet, but from the field as they were no longer in Eden.

Genesis 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God Allows Meat

Noah's family were given permission to eat meat after the flood. Most likely because there was no plant life to eat.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

God Sets Guidelines for Meat Eating

God commands men not to eat unclean meat.

Leviticus 11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
(Read Leviticus 11 for the specifics.)

Back to Creation: A Vegetarian Diet

A return to a plant-based diet and the tree of life.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
God allows man to eat clean meat, but it is not the diet we were created to eat.

Health Issues and Disease

Your body tells you all you need to know. It gives you warning signs that your diet may not be the best for you. Chronic pain and inflammation. Brain fog, bad memory, the inability to focus. Heartburn and indigestion, and distress. The feeling of being weighed down all of the time.

In recent years there have been studies (here's one) that have shown that meat eating increases the risk of colon cancer by 30%. And now we're seeing colon cancer starting to appear in children (source).

My Own Experience

Our church has a program called NEWSTART. Nutrition, exercise, water, sunlight, temperance, air, rest, trust (in the Lord).

The one that most overlook is temperance, which is moderation or self-restraint. In my own life I had multiple food and drink addictions. I was eating and drinking in excess to make myself feel better, but it was only making me feel worse. I wasn't practicing portion control. I was eating all of the wrong foods. Meat was my primary food, and I was eating it in large quantities. I was drinking large amounts of caffeine. I was drinking alcohol.

Once I broke free of my addictions and started eating a mostly vegetarian diet, I noticed my chronic pain went away. I lost weight. I feel better now than I have in a long time, since I was a teenager. I have clarity of mind and focus. I used to have heartburn all of the time when I ate a lot of meat. I haven't had heartburn since.

It's gross to mention, but I have to because it's relevant. My bowels were in turmoil because of my diet. Once I settled into a vegetarian diet my digestive system normalized. The bad smells in the stool were gone too (which I attribute to meat).

If your body is trying to tell you something, you might want to try a vegetarian diet. I can tell you from personal experience that you feel much better when you go vegetarian.

Conclusion

My own conclusion:

If we were created to eat a plant-based diet, and we are going to return to a plant-based diet, then it makes sense that we are to eat a plant-based diet. The concession that God gave Noah, and the clean/unclean guidelines do allow us to eat meat, but I think it is evident that meat should be in moderation, or as little as possible. My own experience has shown this to be true, after going from a destructive indulgent diet to vegetarianism.

I do think that people don't realize the implications of how much of an effect diet has on mental and physical health. As Christians we are called to do better, but how can we do better if we're living a life of intemperance and indulgence?

Ellen White wrote a lot about diet. Here is one quote:
Grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables constitute the diet chosen for us by our Creator. These foods, prepared in as simple and natural a manner as possible, are the most healthful and nourishing. They impart a strength, a power of endurance, and a vigor of intellect, that are not afforded by a more complex and stimulating diet.
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NSPM-7


National Security Presidential Memorandum 7 is designed to address what the article calls "ideological markers" which supposedly indicate support of violence. Included in the order are things deemed "anti-Americanism" and "anti-capitalism".

Also included are things deemed "anti-Christianity". How far would that go?

If a public debate were held between a Christian and a non-Christian and the latter received applause, cheers and maybe even laughter from non-Christians in the audience, could they all be accused of "intimidation" of the Christians?

If Jews for Jesus gathered at a public venue and members of Jews for Judaism showed up to counter with arguments of their own, could the Torah-observant Jews be accused of attacking Christianity?

If victims of psychological or emotional abuse called out the abusers, could they be accused by those abusers of "hostility towards those who hold traditional American views on family, religion, and morality"?

Where does this order draw the line to protect free and open religious discourse?
It's important to understand how this memorandum defines " political violence ". It is much broader than the physical:

AI Generated:

The memorandum defines "organized political violence" not as a single act, but as a culmination of sophisticated, organized campaigns that utilize targeted intimidation, threats, and violent acts with the explicit political purpose of silencing opposing speech, limiting political activity, changing policy outcomes, and preventing the functioning of a democratic society. The scope of acts categorized as these politically motivated terrorist activities is broad, including both traditional physical crimes like rioting, looting, trespass, assault, and destruction of property, as well as non-physical forms of intimidation such as organized doxing campaigns, swatting, and threats of violence. These campaigns are stated to be animated by recurrent motivations, including anti-Americanism, anti-capitalism, and support for the overthrow of the U.S. Government.

I dont know but, many parts of this memorandum eerily sounds like it is describing this administration. Just sayin....
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The USA's 250th birthday to be celebrated with Octagon UFC/MMA fight, possibly on the White House South Lawn

The topics I've seen on social media have ranged from
"how low class it is that he'd disgrace the white house south lawn with a low brow UFC bout"
to
"look how snobby and over-the-top that ballroom is that he's going to be building on the south lawn"

Where's the happy middle ground? Obviously it exists somewhere between MMA and swanky Ballroom dancing...


You mentioned the concept of "standards"...

I think that's a valid point. And I'm not even denying that there could be tit-for-tat politics behind some of it.

Would it be fair to say that between 2015 and present, Democrats have taken some actions that either directly or indirectly conveyed the notion of "we don't care about your standards" to conservative and non-college educated people?

Especially with the backdrop of them engaging in defenses and promotions of things that wouldn't even meet the so-called "fancy standards" if not being done by someone they deemed to be in an "allied group".

What I mean by that is
Telling conservatives "sorry, but your outdated religious traditions, traditional values, and your decorum demands are outdated and irrelevant... we should be holding ourselves to a more elevated, modern-thinking standard... now if you'll excuse us, we have to get Joe over to his high-profile interview with the rapper that sang about how she's a "certified freak, seven days a week" with a "wet <private part>" that'll "make that pull-out game weak"
Maybe you're right. Perhaps two men beating the crap out of one another in a cage is a righteous expression of Christian virtue after all.
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Can we talk about ADHD... and such ?

Inability to concentrate, and flourish in their God given talents.
There is medicine to help those with ADHD to live fairly normal lives. My nephew has ADHD and is an Engineer with several degrees. That takes concentration.

Living a faithful Godly life doesn't take a lot of concentration. It takes surrendering to the Holy Spirit and letting that Spirit guide you.
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Greta Thunberg alleges torture in Israeli detention after Gaza flotilla arrest

She has selective mutism and was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Apparently, she only speaks when it's important? Her words, not mine.

I think I might have selective mutism too. I can only talk in 4-people-or-less situations. 5 or more is too noisy and distracting.
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