Stopped_lurking said:

Give me an example then, and explain why it is outside the scope of science.

Do any of these articles make the case that its use would not be possible to study scientifically? Getting inspiration and tips and tricks and generating hypothesis from the local population is all fine and dandy. I'm sure imperialistic and colonial worldviews have caused distress, pain, even outright murder historically so I'm all for giving the Sami people a place at the table when planning science experiments in Sapmi. If they present a method or a result or natural phenomenon we can study it with scientific methods and try to explain it as well as giving their description a voice.

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But your trying to explain this in scientific material terms which defeats the whole idea of alternative knowledge to the scientific paradigm.

The best way I can relate it to consciousness and phenomenal experiences like belief and material sciences. They belong in different paradigms or the lens by which someone sees fundemental reality. Whether its something transcedent or the causal closure of the phycial is all there is to understanding the world and reality.

Some theories in Quantum Consciousness posit that Mind is fundemental and actually creates the objective world we see. So obvious there are two ways to see the evidence. One measures the physical and the other the Mind or the phenomena beyond the mind.

Already we see a major difference where science could not even measure the transcedent aspect of reality. Therefore if there is a transcedent aspect then this must connect with the objective aspect fundementally. Thus being immersed in the transcedent or spirit gives a deeper knowledge behind what we see. Thus being able to manipulate or transcend the material world.

Its from this basis that I think ancient knowledge could be more advanced because its more aligned with fundemental reality. We can see how modern physics is now toying with the idea that Mind or consciousness is fundemental and could unlock the physical world.

But remember this is spectualtion and an hypothesis. I am not saying this is exactly the case. I don't know. I am just attempting to explain a possibility.

As I said, there are nuances, and a man can hold one opinion we agree with AND one that we think he’s nuts to hold. I think all of the speech that reduces any one man to “just stupid” or “pure evil” to be expressing unintelligent thought, thought that hates acknowledging complications, lazy thought. I imagine most here probably have no conflict with Fuentes’ view on pornography, for example. In that case, admitting he is right about that would be a good start to seeing a whole, if somewhat mistaken human being rather than a caricature to be treated purely as an enemy.
I think Tucker is a bit off the rails on UFOs, for example. I also think he has gone too soft on too many of his interviewees, listening, and not challenging nearly enough. But he is right to a great extent on some aspects of both Russia and Israel, if not sufficiently informed on others. (I could say a LOT more about him and Russia.) The interview with the Iranian president was never going to work, as he seems to not know what taqiyya is, or how that would certainly be used against him in such an interview. Anyone who calls him an ”antisemite” is simply falling for propaganda. That’s what the term was invented for, the term is nonsense in that Semites also includes Arabs and other peoples; it represents a lack of thought about what things are; “anti-Jew” would be shorter, more honest, and more direct, and that’s what I myself say instead of “antisemite”.
Tucker has made it quite clear on many occasions that he is neutral towards Israel, that he only opposes the extent of support that shuts down all questioning of it, and that other sides should be considered. Sometimes he goes too far in THAT direction. I’m not trying to derail the thread, and don’t expect 100% agreement from everyone, but to point out that these people are complicated. I could equally turn the guns, so to speak, on Ben Shapiro, Michael Knowles, Andrew Klavan, etc, and state both where I think them right and where I think them wrong without condemning them on the whole as “bad people”. And if you look at the Left, I think you’ll find that quite a few of them are going to occasionally express ideas we actually agree with, even though we disagree on so many of the big issues. Again, this is not about Tucker as such but about how we refuse to sift through the ideas and fairly weigh each one on its own merits.

Oh, and I do acknowledge that Chesterton here is right, that Fr Josiah probably did vet Fuentes and decided that both his stand on pornography and his reach were worth letting him speak about pornography.

RamiC said:

Do Sheffeild University allow their students to watch the world news?

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Lol


Ive lost friends in real life because they cant handle realizing my ex wife might actually be my half sister.

But lot and his daughters

Its ok its in the bible

Actually there is evidence from research that modern life makes people mentally ill. We have increasing and high rates of youth mental illness. We have high rates of young adult men and women with anxiety and depression.

In some ways society is like a individual who is having a breakdown.

Look at everything that is in the media. Its all bad news and negative. But also in recent decades I think society has created an unreal idea of what makes people happy. You have to have a good job and career, make money, be popular, always show your happy. Individual fullfillment put above all else. Women told not to be married and be free and put off having a child and now they are sad they missed out as this was nature calling.

Manhood being turned into some disorder and all the fighting over identities. Everything seems to be tearing down marriages, families, aborting babies, rejecting bodies and reality itself.

Then we hear the constant grevance of climate change, the world is going to end soon as it floods or drys up. Then theres all the talk of wars and nuclear wars and terrorism. Antisemetism, assassinations of people live on TV. Its a crazy world we are living in right now. So I can understand peoples worry and bewilderment.

I think now is the time to get back to basic. Don't worry about the world or fitting in with it. Its all chaos. Of course get your job and pay your bills. Or for many they are just surviving and no one cares. But God cares and if we trust in Him we will always find the strength no matter what.

If find volunteering good. Most people who do charity are good people and worth knowing. It also gives meaning and worth by helping others. Takes your mind off your own problems and actually helps overcome them.

Something about helping brings help for yourself. Not in a selfish way. I think its the same principle of storing up riches in heaven. A value beyond money and this world which can enrich your spirit. Which builds you up and helps see things differently.

But I think its also important to not buy into the culture and world. Trying to live to their social rules. Its a jungle out there lol.

Yarddog said:

Why do people hate immigrants, whether illegal or not?

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Nothing personal against them, we just don't need them in the country.

ThatRobGuy said:

Are we going to act all shocked as to why they opt to want to have some words with the latter, but don't pay much attention to the former?

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The probably would pay more attention to the brown gentleman in America.

jacks said:

As things get more expensive the terms of loans rises. For example car loans in the 60's were rarely over 3 years. Now car loans can be up to 8 years. We are a consumer economy, have to keep those consumers consuming!

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This actually comes with advancements and regulations. Home loans used to be 7 years. Car loans 3. But as we advance things get more and more costly. I do think the 30 year mortgage helped create more expensive homes. They were inevitably going to go up in price with air-conditioning, electric everything, fuel standards etc etc.

Hous3s at 50 year loans. Very bad plan.

Tropical Wilds said:

So you admit I didn’t do the thing you accused me of,

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Thats right you did not say many right wingers are authoritarian racists.

But you did say:

Tropical Wilds said:

You are arguing nonsense, you simply want to invent a boogeyman to scare yourself, then blame everybody else for your fear. You don’t like BLM, leftists, socialists, communists, so you invent transgressions or round up a few issues to be indicative of a whole or a pattern, sprinkle in your bias against certain groups, become afraid, and then declare your fantasy a real-life problem.

The obvious solution would be to stop scaring yourself by indulging in the propaganda designed to make you fearful in order to have you act against your best interests and examine the facts as they are, not dig your heels in deeper and sob louder.

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Which is the projecting thing I was talking about. If you need to you could re-read my posts and it would be clear. Becauae I went on to say:

"By the way you seen to like to like to put thoughts into others heads. Like when you said.

"You are arguing nonsense, you simply want to invent a boogeyman to scare yourself, then blame everybody else for your fear."

How do you know what I want and who I want to scare? Projecting your own thoughts again?"

Which is a direct quote from the above which you posted. So, the great of my post stands since it is in reference to what you DID say.

Tropical Wilds said:

That’s not putting thoughts into anybody’s head, that’s watching you do it in real time and calling it out.

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Nope you are putting thought into my head that I never expressed. Nice work.

Tropical Wilds said:

You are arguing nonsense, inventing boogeymen, and scaring yourself with your invention, then blaming others for being scared.

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Where did I say I was scared? Quote me. Your projecting again. Cause I havent mentioned a boogeyman. Are you afraid of one?

Tropical Wilds said:

We just watched you claiming I said something I didn’t

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See above.

Tropical Wilds said:

I didn’t (invent a boogeyman), get mad (scare yourself),

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Funny, neither did I yet you claimed I did. Funny I never claimed I was scared either, but that sure didnt stop you from making that claim. Thats why I think you are projecting. Having that stuff swirling around in your head and then projecting on others.

Apple Sky said:

You could say this about anyone.

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I'm saying it about flat earth believers.

keras said:

Plainly; it is the Jews who are blinded.

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The Jews are blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles has been completed. So the time is coming when the Jews will no longer be blinded and will turn to Jesus and all Israel will be saved.

keras said:

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Zephaniah 14-18, Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His Light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

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No, the Gog/Magog attack of Ezekiel 38-39 will be on the current nation of Israel.

Stopped_lurking said:

You have previously alluded to aboriginals using ancient knowledge today, but when questioned about it you didn't give any inkling on what they actually do. What do they do, and if it influences reality, why couldn't we measure it?

Even if we disagree about the cause, why can't we measure the effect?

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I was rejecting the idea that we have to prove Indigenous knowledge. We know there is such a thing. Its called knowledge and its different to material sciences. So it exists and the Indigenous peoples tell us so. Its like defending their language as a real thing from the past.

Aboriginals are one of the most interesting and complex cultures. Steeped in the Dreamtime which is sort of the equivelant of the Creation story.

Only in recent times are we discovering their knowledge. They now lead most of the environments programs caring for the land. That includes working science and tech with Indigneous knowledge. Or redirecting science and tech into Indigenous applications.

I mean they were not a building culture so theres no vases or megaliths. The giant natural rocks and other natural sites are the megaliths. Their culture is much more ancient . I mean the Boomerang is pretty cool. So is the Didgeridoo.

They are good at sustainable living, sustainable crops. Blending in crops to thive with their natural environment without disturbing the land. Unlike modern tech that destroys nature despite its advanced tech. Which shows that Indigenous knowledge is a deeper knowledge that knows nature and how it works. Where actually material science is dumb in that sense.

The use of fire is another practice that helps regrowth, hunting, and maintaining the land. They manage to control the bush pretty good and then we come along and stop all the knowledge and wonder why we get mega bush fires that wipe out growth the size of a small nation destroying homes and people.

There are many ways. Too many to name.

Western science and traditional knowledge: Despite their variations, different forms of knowledge can learn from each other
For example, some authors (Freeman, 1992; Iaccarino, 2003) have suggested that traditional knowledge systems can be helpful in dealing with complex systems: “The understanding of complex systems remains a major challenge for the future, and no scientist today can claim that we have at hand the appropriate methods with which to achieve this. Thus, we cannot discuss the future of science without taking into account the philosophical problems generated by the study of complexity.

Modern, or Western, science may not be best suited to fulfil this task, as its view of the world is too constrained by its characteristic empirical and analytical approach that, in the past, made it so successful. We should therefore remember the contributions of other civilizations to the understanding of nature. […] Such traditional or indigenous knowledge is now increasingly being used not only with the aim of finding new drugs, but also to derive new concepts that may help us to reconcile empiricism and science” (Iaccarino, 2003).

Western science and traditional knowledge: Despite their variations, different forms of knowledge can learn from each other - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Science Must Embrace Traditional and Indigenous Knowledge to Solve Our Biodiversity Crisis

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259033222030350X

It’s taken thousands of years, but Western science is finally catching up to Traditional Knowledge

Belk said:

Taken to court how, exactly? The only possible action I've been able to find is a tort claim which would not result in a4th amendment ruling against the officer.

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Im sure you can take them to court for unlawful search and siezure.

There is one take on Habbukuk at this link. It would seem he was a minor, minor prophet, but he was prepared to speak his mind to God.

He was upset with all the evil that was going on and wanted to know what God was going to do about it.

The kicker is, both times Habakkuk appears, it’s nearly the same passage: different verses from Chapter 1 of the Book of Habakkuk paired with the same verses from Chapter 2. It’s unfair, considering this prophet only gets two shots at speaking to us. Maybe we’re not missing much. Habakkuk’s prophecies are only three chapters long, which means you can become an expert on his writings pretty quickly. Not so with Isaiah, whose thought encompasses 66 chapters. By comparison, Habakkuk’s a fellow who gets to the point.

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There is a Wikipedia article here.

LIFE

Almost nothing is known about Habakkuk, aside from what is stated within the book of the Bible bearing his name, or those inferences that may be drawn from that book.[3] No biographical details are provided other than his title "the prophet".[4]

For almost every other prophet, more information is given, such as the name of the prophet's hometown, his occupation, or information concerning his parentage or tribe.[13] For Habakkuk, however, there is no reliable account of any of these.[14] Although his home is not identified, scholars conclude that Habakkuk lived in Jerusalem at the time he wrote his prophecy.[15] Further analysis has provided an approximate date for his prophecy and possibilities concerning his activities and background.

Beyond the Bible, considerable conjecture has been put forward over the centuries in the form of Christian and Rabbinic tradition, but such accounts are dismissed by modern scholars as speculative and apocryphal.[5][6]

The Septuagint translation of Daniel in the Codex Chisianus refers to him as "the son of Jesus of the tribe of Levi".[16]

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Starbucks? TEA? Sounds like a liberal false flag stunt.

Micah 4:11-13 But now many nations are massed against you. They say: Let Zion suffer, let us gloat over the Holy Land.
They do not know the Lord’s thoughts or understand His purposes, for He has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.
Arise and thresh, you descendants of Zion; I will make your weapons strong and many peoples will be destroyed. Their land and property is to be consecrated to the Lord of the whole earth.

Micah 5:1 For now; gather behind your walls, seek shelter from the siege.
Israel’s ruler will be struck on the cheek by a rod.
Will Benyamin Netanyahu be wounded and incapacitated? This is a very likely scenario, as he has already survived many attempts of assassination.
A ‘rod’, would be the best description Micah could use for a snipers rifle.

The loss of the Jewish State of Israel’s good leaders, is Prophesied in Isaiah 3:1-5 and the panic that ensues in Isaiah 22:1-5
Iran and all the Islamic haters of Judah , will take advantage of this situation: Isaiah 22:6-9….Elam, Aram and Kir, will prepare to attack and the heart of Judah’s defences are laid open.

Then, the Lord will arise and destroy them all. Ezekiel 7:14. Zechariah 1:14-18, Isaiah 63:1-8, Revelation 6:12-17

Reluctant Theologian said:

Information/facts that are not mentioned in the Bible may not be necessarily untrue. The early church has circulating info and sometimes literature/books with extra-Biblical stories - of course the reliability and authenticity of those are at a very different level than the Biblical texts (and may even be completely fabricated), but there is no reason to dismiss by definition ALL extra-Biblical accounts/stories/books. These were part of early Christian society and its written or oral tradition. We assume all kind of historical events based on extra-Biblical information ..

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I would say that there is no reason either to dismiss or to believe extra-biblical details about people or events mentioned in the bible. Particularly with the biblical account of the Incarnation, we find all sorts of "details" added, and accepted as an essential part of the "Christmas story." The donkey, an innkeeper, the wise men visiting Jesus at the same time as the shepherds, and much more. Some of these things actually contradict what we find in the bible, and others, we just do not know.

Chesterton said:

I thought they are all programmed to "do no harm" so to speak. Are you talking about some kind of private AI's or something?

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The safety protocols in place are not 100% reliable.

And once I debated chatgpt if there are situations, killing people is good. It might decide that killing humans is good if it saves other humans, especially good humans but only as last resort. That was roughly the reply.

Hentenza said:

An hour is a short time for those that are not detained but it is a long time for someone detained, particularly if you are hand cuffed. Im sure you would not want to spend an hour detained.

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Well now else are rhey going to verify my identity. By trust? There is a reason why officers are allowed leeway in the amount of time it takes.

Hentenza said:

ICE should have direct access to the same system that the border patrol uses. It is part of homeland security. The system contains access to the immigration data base and a portable finger print pad. Also, at least in Texas, real ids are extremely hard to forge. It can happen but is extremely rare. ICE should not default to an id being fake anyway given that, in the example in the OP, they entered a private work place where there is no probable cause that a criminal enterprise was happening.

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How do you know they don't. It still takes time to do it. Its not like television.

Hentenza said:

they entered a private work place where there is no probable cause that a criminal enterprise was happening.

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No one said there was a criminal enterprise. But there were illegals. I guess they were right.

Hentenza said:

If they suspected illegal activity then they should have gotten a warrant through probable cause.

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They didn't need one. Why does everyone keep bringing that up?

Hentenza said:

Did LE get a warrant based on probable cause like most have to do?

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ICE didnt need one in the circumstances. And even if they got one that wouldnt have stopped them from picking up the guy. Buy the way how do we know they didn't have one for the raid? They always get one when its required.

FreeinChrist said:

But they weren't.

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Yeah they were.

FreeinChrist said:

That is back to "looking brown, must be illegal."

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Thats not happening.

FreeinChrist said:

Without someone saying something, how do you know where they are known to be".

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People are saying things. And they arw investigating.

FreeinChrist said:

It is unfortunate that Trump didn't want that bill reforming immigration to pass which would have helped a great deal.

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Well thats what the Demicrats said. Im a bit skeptical that the group that belonged to a president who's let so many illegals in instead of keeping them out actually had keeping them.out in mind. No I didn't trust them at all.

rjs330 said:

Just like I said. When they need a warrant they are obtaining one.

Yes, if they are in areas where illegals are known to be. And of course sanctuary cities would he hot beds of illegals. If you raid a place with illegals then anyone matching the profiles of the illegals are going to be looked at.

This is rhe consequences of allowing 20 million illegals lose in the country.

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That does not always appear to be the case.

Recent ICE actions in Chicago have been associated with controversy regarding the use of warrants, with a recent raid sparking a lawsuit and federal investigation
. A federal judge ruled that ICE violated a 2022 settlement that limits warrantless arrests, leading to the extension of that settlement and new rules for agents. The ruling followed a raid on an apartment building where ICE agents arrested dozens of people, some without warrants, after using a helicopter and other force.

“Blank warrant” issue: The judge also took issue with ICE agents using blank forms to fill out warrants at the scene of an arrest, ruling that this was an attempt to circumvent the probable cause requirement.

80's classic that I have somehow only just now become fond of.

Login to view embedded media
@Multifavs , I hope i do not presume too much about your personality when i say this sounds like it might be your kind of love song. Give it a listen!


Side note: Actor Andrew McCarthy was cool. I actually am not familiar with anything he was in past the 80's, though, strangely.

FreeinChrist said:

agree that much of the media is not honest - but I view it that the right leaning media is the problem.
They are helping to create a "them" who are different from "us".

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No its the left leaning media who is the problem. Not being honest about stuff.

The conservative media hasnt helped create anything. It absolutely is a them, the illegals, and us who are legal.

ICE is the one who has been attacked by the left leaning media simply for doing their job.

FreeinChrist said:

And I have to wonder, if a group of masked men, without labeling as ICE or police, jump out of a van and grabs me or my daughter, should I resist what looks like a criminal action or meekly go along?

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If that happens then fight. Because ICE doesn't do that. That again is a left wing misrepresentation that is meant to scare people.

FreeinChrist said:

ICE officers are going to be masked and look like thugs, and do not provide ID like a badge, why shouldn't I doubt who they are?
More recent photos of agents show they are al least having the word "police" somewhere on their clothing, but many didn't
have any id for months.

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If you watch rhem on video they all carry badges and wear marking labeling them as ICE. So they don't look like thugs. Once again scare mongering by the media.

Chesterton said:

Personally, I respect an atheist even less for using an emergence argument. It has something in common with the multiverse, in that it's a complete fabrication with zero evidence. I've never accepted the word "emergence" being used in a scientific or philosophical context. It's a vacuous placeholder word used to gloss over the fact that we don't know the details about certain processes. Saying that something emerged is not saying anything worth saying.

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But properties do emerge?

probinson said:

As I've said twice now, the analogy is inane. It has no real point.

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And yet, it did. Apparently you missed it, and continue to.

-- A2SG, oh well, I tried....

BCP1928 said:

An Oxford Don and lay theologian by hobby.

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Listen to you like your a expert determining who is lay and who is not. Like your above them all to tell lol. Show me how Peterson is a hobby theologian. I bet you can't. Because its a blantant horrible brush to tar anyone who has at least academic credibility and spent much time on studying the bible and applying psychology with theology.

It is a simple fact that Peterson is at the academic level in theology and psychology. Well past a hobbyist who is part time and an amateur.

But then thats all we have got in this thread. Constant belittling of anyone I suggest. All tared with the same brush because it was already decided that this is all rubbish and conspiracy. I can go back and show you. Even Petrie was made into a stupid old man who did not know what he was talking about.

This is only proving my point that this is not about science facts but belief.

BCP1928 said:

Well regarded in ecclesiastical circles as I understand it, but the point is, he rejects Steve's position on science

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No he doesn't. You literally made a strawman. Show me how Lennox says science can include God in its methodology. Good luck.

In fact his main point is that science and maths points to a creator God and not material naturalism. Thus supporting my point that fundementally this is spiritual. That reality is immersed in the spiritual and phenomenal experiences like belief in God or gods.

Because its natural. Thus those in the past who were immersed in the spiritual were actually closer and aligned to Gods natural laws and gained a deeper knowledge of how they worked. They did not attenuate the spiritual with material sciences that assumed naturalism was itself the creator. But laws of the creator that went beyond the material. Thus a deeper knowledge.