A glimpse at our Eastern & Western Christian Churches

Your first statement is clearly not true. I have copied the 4 provisions of the letter agreement below. There is no "...full access to the sacraments...." 6. applies only if there are both bishops present for a funeral, baptism, or matrimony, and merely says who presides. 7. prohibits mixed bishops concelebrating Divine Liturgy, while 8. extends that to priests.

The tricky one is 9. where a priest from one can celebrate services including Divine Liturgy and matrimony, for the other, if there is no priest of the other. I have some questions, but clearly yes there is literally communion between them. I still relate this as an accommodation between two churches in a hostile land. If there is a requirement that there is a church building - a physical church - with no priest, but with a community, that is even more support that this is an accommodation.

I do not know what happens in practice, but the letter is written so as to bar "...the laity can attend either church (meaning for communion)...". The letter gives only one situation where that is allowed.

Letter provisions:
6. If bishops of the two Churches participate at a holy baptism or funeral service, the one belonging to the Church of the baptized or deceased will preside. In case of a holy matrimony service, the bishop of the bridegroom's Church will preside.
7. The above mentioned is not applicable to the concelebration in the Divine Liturgy.
8. What applies to bishops equally applies to the priests of both Churches.
9. In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divine Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.

Let me first reiterate that in correcting the above, I am not seeking to continue the debate about whether or not the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox are or are not in a state of limited inter-communion, with you, as I believe that you and I will never be able to agree on that. However, I do believe you have mischaracterized the agreement and what it allows and does not allow, based on a misreading. I will therefore post the numbered provisions and clarify these points, while having a different overall interpretation concerning what they mean in the aggregate for the two ancient Orthodox Patriarchates of Antioch:

Firstly, before we begin, it must be stressed that all provisions apply to each church, mutually. Nothing in the letter contradicts the idea that what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

Now, here are the numbered Articles of the Agreement:

  1. We affirm the total and mutual respect of the spirituality, heritage and Holy Fathers of both Churches. The integrity of both the Byzantine and Syriac liturgies is to be preserved.
  2. The heritage of the Fathers in both Churches and their traditions as a whole should be integrated into Christian education curricula and theological studies. Exchanges of professors and students are to be enhanced.
  3. Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.
  4. Meetings between the two Churches, at the level of their Synods, according to the will of the two Churches, will be held whenever the need arises.
  5. Every Church will remain the reference and authority for its faithful, pertaining to matters of personal status (marriage, divorce, adoption, etc.).
  6. If bishops of the two Churches participate at a holy baptism or funeral service, the one belonging to the Church of the baptized or deceased will preside. In case of a holy matrimony service, the bishop of the bridegroom's Church will preside.
  7. The above mentioned is not applicable to the concelebration in the Divine Liturgy.
  8. What applies to bishops equally applies to the priests of both Churches.
  9. In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divine Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.
  10. If two priests of the two Churches happen to be in a locality where there is only one Church, they take turns in making use of its facilities.
  11. If a bishop from one Church and a priest from the sister Church happen to concelebrate a service, the first will preside even when it is the priest's parish.
  12. Ordinations into the holy orders are performed by the authorities of each Church for its own members. It would be advisable to invite the faithful of the sister Church to attend.
  13. Godfathers, godmothers (in baptism) and witnesses in holy matrimony can be chosen from the members of the sister Church.
  14. Both Churches will exchange visits and will co-operate in the various areas of social, cultural and educational work.
    We ask God's help to continue strengthening our relations with the sister Church, and with other Churches, so that we all become one community under one Shepherd.

Firstly, the argument that concelebration is prohibited is not supported by the text. Article 7 does not prohibit concelebration between bishops of either churches, it merely clarifies that whereas Article 6 requires that in Baptisms and Funerals concelebrated by bishops of both churches will have the bishop from the church whose member is being baptized or who has reposed preside, no such restriction exists on concelebrations of the Divine Liturgy.

Article 11 furthermore allows a bishop from one church to concelebrate with a priest from another, the bishop will preside over the service. This proceeds bishops “presiding from the throne” as inactive participants, but rather requires that the bishop personally lead the worship, rather than the priest, even if it is in the parish of that priest.

Article 10 ensures that if a priest from each church is available and the two can share a church, the liturgy will still be celebrated according to both liturgical rites; this is in accord with the preface and also Article 1, since it was specifically the goal of this agreement was “All this has called upon our Holy Synod of Antioch to bear witness to the progress of our Church in the See of Antioch towards unity that preserves for each Church its authentic Oriental heritage whereby the one Antiochian Church benefits from its sister Church and is enriched in its traditions, literature and holy rituals.” Obviously, this would not happen if churches did not celebrate both the Byzantine Rite and the West Syriac RIte liturgies when they had the resources, in the form of priests from each church, to do so. It would be a disaster if in such a case, the clergy decided to only celebrate one rite or the other, perhaps because one of the priests was elderly, or one of the congregations was larger, indeed, without this rule it seems likely that parishes in Lebanon and Syria would tend to be dominated by the Byzantine Rite, while those in Turkey and Iraq would be dominated by the West Syriac Rite. And that would be unfortunate. Specifically, Damascus, Beirut and Latakia would likely become Byzantine Rite cities, and Tikrit, Mosul and Baghdad would become West Syriac Rite cities.

Article 9 on the other hand ensures that when only one priest is available, that he is able to serve the faithful from both churches, in whatever rite he has been trained in. And this has doubtless been of substantial benefit, particularly for Antiochian Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox traveling in areas where one church has little or no presence. For example, Syrian, Lebanese and Turkish expats working in parts of Iraq where the dominant Christian churches are the Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East and Chaldean Catholic, would still have full access to the sacraments. And likewise, Syrians traveling in parts of Lebanon and Syria, for example, Maaloula, where there are only Antiochian Orthodox churches, would still have full access to the sacraments.* But it does not contain any language that would prohibit the faithful of either church from receiving the sacraments from either church elsewhere.

Finally, there is no provision prohibiting members of either church from receiving sacraments at the parish of another, insofar as articles 1, 2 and 3 recognize each church as fully valid and legitimate, require that the heritage of each church and their respective Fathers and history be integrated into the educational programs of both churches, so an Antiochian will learn about Syriac Orthodox fathers and vice versa, and under Article 3, conversions between the churches are prohibited, and furthermore, article 13 allows members from either church to serve as godparents, or as witnesses at marriages.

Article 9 merely requires that priests in localities where their church is the only one serve members of both churches and maintain independent records (perhaps AOCNA priests were reticent about having to deal with this, and combined with a fear of backlash from other churches in North America, and the risk of this interfering with efforts to resolve the problem of multiple overlapping jurisdictions, this is why AOCNA apparently, at least according to some sources, does not participate in this agreement, but as an autonomous church, it would be a violation of its autonomy to force it into doing so.

The same principle of autonomy is what allows the Church of Sinai, an autonomous church under the Patriarch of Jerusalem, to allow Coptic Orthodox pilgrims to partake of the Eucharist at that important holy site, which is something that within the tense atmosphere of rivalry between the Greek, Armenian and Latin groups that control jointly several places of pilgrimage in the Holy Land, such as the Holy Sepulchre, according to the sometimes absurd strictures of the Muslim-imposed Status Quo Agreement, which features such spectacles as the legendary “immovable ladder”, would unfortunately be impossible for the time being (indeed even in the event of EO-OO reunion, it might not be possible to fully implement this reunion at the Holy Sepulchre due to the Status Quo agreement due to various issues of church politics).

Now, to reiterate, none of this seeks to challenge your views about the relationship between the two churches, on which we agree to disagree. Rather, I am seeking to address what I believe was a misinterpretation of the effect of the numbered articles of the Ecumenical Agreement on your part. I should note I also disagree with a view I seem to recall you expressing at one point, that the provisions expressed in the non-numbered paragraphs are not relevant to the meaning of the article.

*To use a secular example, It’s a bit like the code-sharing agreements between major airlines, for example, between American Airlines, British Airways, Qantas, and Alaska Airlines, or between Air Canada, United Air Lines, Lufthansa, and Air New Zealand, or between Delta, Air France, KLM and Virgin Atlantic, that allow passengers to seamlessly travel between destinations on each airline’s network. Or in prior decades, the through-train services such as the California Zephyr, which connected Chicago to San Francisco via the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, the Denver and Rio Grande Western and the Western Pacific, or the City of Los Angeles, which connected Los Angeles to Chicago via the Southern Pacific, Union Pacific and the Chicago & Northwestern Rwy.
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Favorite Animated Movies and Shows

Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, Laputa: Castle in the Sky, and Princess Mononoke are all great.

Anyone in the community who loves animated movies and TV Shows? Leave your favorites down below! Tangled is one of my personal favorites, but the nostalgic Batman the Animated Series and Scooby Doo and the forever iconic Veggietales are at the top of my list to (just to name a few)!
I really liked Roger Rabbit, Toy Story and Wallace and Grommet. All the the old cartoons.
Anyone in the community who loves animated movies and TV Shows? Leave your favorites down below! Tangled is one of my personal favorites, but the nostalgic Batman the Animated Series and Scooby Doo and the forever iconic Veggietales are at the top of my list to (just to name a few)!
I really liked Roger Rabbit, Toy Story and Wallace and Grommet. In my childhood I enjoyed Warner Bros cartoons.

I have a Canadian short (I think under 1o min.) https://yout might get a chuckle.

Login to view embedded media
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Ammillennialism and Pretribulationism both fly against the Early Church

The Sabbath being prepared for that year was on a Thursday, so the body could not be prepared after 6pm that Wednesday. It was Passover Sabbath. Passover was never on Friday.

Jesus was more than likely not in the tomb after 6pm on Saturday, so was never in the tomb on Sunday at all. But the stone was not rolled away until 6am.

Jesus was in the tomb, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, starting on the evening of Wednesday after 6pm. 3 evenings, and 3 mornings.
the Sabbath is Saturday, always. It is given as a law that the 7th day is the Sabbath.
so the preparation day before the Sabbath, is Friday.
that is why they have "good Friday" though I suppose they're off, in that the crucifixion was Thursday but His burial was Friday evening (what we'd consider Thursday Evening)

But I suppose all of this is good exercise in showing that the Jews reckoned time differently than we do.
they start days at sundown rather than midnight, and count the day they're on rather than count the day after. When we say after 3 days we mean after 72 hours. When they say after 3 days, they mean after 48 hours and during that next 24 hours, just after the 3rd day has started rather than after it has finished.

and for instance, Hosea 6
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
raising up in the 3rd day.
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I have evolved, don't think or believe as I did years ago RE Christianity, etc..

Ok, thanks for this, even though I already knew (or have read anyhow) something like 90% of it.

I DO now understand more fully (after reading this post) the Sede position, which you put in far more clear terms than the author of that material did.

What I can't figure out (one thing) is: If "the First See is judged by no one," isn't it "judging" the first See to say that the pope occupying it is a heretic? THAT is what I fail to understand from going over this material more than a couple times. Again, these people need to learn how to put things in layman's terms. Or maybe they don't want laypersons understanding it all? I have had THAT thought more times than I can count..

There was something else I didn't get, but it seems until I get the answer to the above (bolded), well... it's not going to work. I mean, the article you gave me seems to talk in circles a lot and the "in other words" are worse than the original words.. at least in one place..

I'll try to think of the other thing I need clarity on...

The article is a bit complicated, but that's because the underlying philosophy is complicated. If one wants to cut to the short of it, the practical conclusion is that a pope isn't deposed until such time as the church renders a judgment, even under the paradigm that the pope loses his office automatically upon becoming a heretic. The basic point of the article is to note how even the theologians who indicated they believed a heretical pope automatically lost his office (which sedevacantists often point to) still believed that a church declaration was required, and thus they do not provide support for the sedevacantist position that Catholics can without such a judgment decide for themselves the pope isn't the real pope anymore. However, the thought process underlying that position is complicated, which is why it gets confusing. But the practical conclusion is simply that, even if you don't quite understand the thought process of the theologians in question, they still affirmed the requirement of actual formal church action, which doesn't work with sedevacantism.

I would also say that what even if the bolded is a problem, it's one sedevacantism doesn't solve at all; the fact the judging is being transferred from the actual church authorities to the laity doesn't obviate the problem and in fact would rather seem to exacerbate it.
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Moon light - the word of God vs falsely so called science

On the subject of day and night, according to Genesis 1:4-5 on day 1 of creation.

On day 4 of creation according to Genesis 1:14-16.



Can someone explain how God had already divided the day into light and darkness on day 1 but the Sun (and Moon), the sources of light were created on day 4?
Genesis is far more problematical than whether moonlight is reflected sunlight or not, it violates cause and effect.

I can not explain how God divided light, just like i can not explain how Jesus walked on water.

Not sure if this is the post you were speaking about
Read my previous post and

The earth God created in Genesis 1:1 became dark, God cut out the light after satan sinned (Ezekiel 28:13-19).
So God in restoring the earth created in Genesis 1:1, God started out with restoring the light. Why would God want to work in darkness until day four.


while you are at it explain why in Genesis 1 plants were created on day 3 and humans on day 6 whereas in Genesis 2 the implication is humans were created before plants.

Genesis 1 is what this verse Genesis 2:4 is referencing. Not the rest of Genesis 2.
This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

After verses 2:1-7 starting at Genesis 2:8 begins a description of the garden of Eden. Which has nothing to do with the creation account in Genesis 1. This garden could have been made a week, a month, etc.. after God restoration/creation account in Genesis 1
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A Rapture Study on Pre Wrath

I totally agree 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. It's clear as can be. But it never gives a time. 1 Thess. 5:9 does not mean wrath is the entire tribulation. It is speaking of wrath as described in John 3:36. It's also clear that the wrath of God only occurs at the end of this tribulation period.

This also describes the wrath at the end of the tribulation:
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:13-17)

Now we go to Revelation 16:1 and see when the wrath begins to be poured out, "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

The earth has already been reaped of its harvest before that in chapter 14. After Jesus comes on the cloud and takes His own, then in verse 19, "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Jesus can come any time prior to this. If pre trib, hey, great. If not, then be prepared, and don't be among those who start saying "my Lord delayeth His coming" - and do not lose sight, and grow weary, for He will return for His elect as promised, but watch and pray for ye know not when the time is. Do I look up even now? Sure. Do I pray "Come, Lord Jesus"? Absolutely, daily that is in my prayers. That's how the disciples approached things when they were still alive, as if He might come even in their day.
I think I can help.

When it comes to God’s wrath, most people can’t define it. I couldn’t either for many years. The Holy Spirit led me to the verse below. It answers, at least in part, what God’s wrath is.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

God’s wrath can be in the form of wars. Except, in the Trib, everything is oversized, substantially more vicious, etc., as the wars will be. Rev 6:4 promises wars all over the world, simultaneously. That verse is part of the 2nd seal. That verse is below:

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

In the Trib, God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal.

Paul’s first rapture verse is 1 Th 1:10:

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Paul wrote that we will be raptured before the wrath in the Trib. God’s wrath certifiably begins in the 2nd seal, in Rev 6:4, since wars in the Trib, are a form of God’s wrath.
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Angelology and Pneumatology Tied?

No - by definition they are not

Angelology - angelology—the study of angels, Satan, and demons, and the ongoing battle between them.

Pneumatology - study of the person of the Holy Spirit, and the works of the Holy Spirit

They have no connection whatsoever unless you change the meaning of the terms
What about the infilling of holy angels with the Spirit of God, and to prophesy, and give people commissioning grace or strengthening, or apply healing...?
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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

“I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, TO try THOSE who dwell upon the earth.”

Rev 6:10 proves those who dwell on the earth are UNBELIEVERS:
1 Peter 4:12-13 proves you wrong.
Dear friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has [will] come to test you. ........ it gives you a share in Christs sufferings.....

Many other verses say we must endure trials and testing to be proved worthy of a place in the Kingdom.
The false idea of an instant rapture before any kind of test, is plainly wrong and contradicts scripture.
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I am not truly saved and I'm scared to tell my parents

So, I have been 'saved' three times, but I realized that I didn't mean it any of those times.

The first time I was 'saved,' I was little, so of course, I didn't mean it.
The second time, I didn't mean it either.
The third time, I just said it because I was scared of going to hell. If I tell my parents or any of my family members, they'll get upset with me. I know they will.

(By the way, sorry if this is a bit confusing. I have OCD, so...)

You have been saved three times.

With that thinking, you will continue to go through life being saved.

Where you are going wrong is, you need to not so much think about being saved. But instead you need to look at what God is offering you and every other person alive today.

Which is God's free gift of Eternal Life, that is the very Life of God. To receive this free gift, the only condition God requires from a person is to believe in Jesus. Which is believing that Jesus is who He says He is. The resurrection and the life, the promised Messiah/Son of God.

If at some point in your life you believe this about Jesus, you become a permanent born again child of God.
As This verse in John states you cross over from death to life.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
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Political gossip, slander and suspicions

-
If you fail to understand this age, is the age of satan and satan has possession of all of the kingdoms of the world.

Political division will continue and probably get worse. Until satan's man (king of the north, man of sin, beast from the sea) comes on the scene. Then satan will then give this person the kingdoms of the world in return for worship.

The earth will have a one world government at this time and this time will be of great distress for the earth and the people of the earth.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The only future time where politics and the problems associated with man rule government. Will cease will be when God brings in The Kingdom of God ruled by Jesus and the nation of Israel. Then the earth will know peace and political division will be silenced.

Until one more time satan will be released from his prison the revolt will be quickly destroyed and satan thrown into the lake of fire.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I don't expect politics to change but Christians are supposed to evolve
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God's Punishment/Judgment - EO View

I trust God will be merciful and just ( Romans 9:15). So if I accidentally run down an unfortunate person with my car, hit & run, I will be damned. The victim will be largely forgiven. If the victim is also guilty of grievous sin, like me, & unrepentant then that person will be damned like me. Like if that person embezzled money from a nursing home or something like that ( again, if the person was unrepentant of their grievous sin not as opposed to something petty like having stolen an apple from a grocery store). We can ponder so far & just leave it to God while hoping for mercy for ourselves & our neighbor ( see Matthew 7:1-12).
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Dating apps have filter flaws

I explicitly put over and over that I do not want someone who drinks alcohol in any capacity nor do I want children. Every match I get are women who want one or both and it just gets old. I have walked away from apps and websites and the church is no better, when I even go.

Your filter would probably result to zero match.

So the app, to avoid discouraging you, gave you something. The makers of the app probably weighed in the option of showing a zero vs something (not perfectly matching the filter) and latter option gave better results so there you go. It's probably not a flaw but by design.
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