A Rapture Study on Pre Wrath

Kokavkrystallos · Apr 22, 2024

Soul_Tsunami said:
Here is an interesting discussion Woolvard vs. Gundry

Taking the testimony of the Gospels as a whole, it may be concluded that the rapture is not found at all in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, although the second coming of Christ is clearly spoken of and the events which precede it are described. In John 14 Christ introduces for the first time the subject of His coming for His own and His taking them to the Father’s house. The somewhat desperate attempt of posttribulationists to spiritualize this passage and eliminate it as referring to the rapture is in itself a confession that the rapture is presented in John 14 as an event distinctive from the second coming. That Christ did not expound the details of the rapture here is understandable, for the disciples had many other spiritual and theological problems at the time. The full explanation awaited the revelation which would be given through Paul and which formed a central theme of the epistles he wrote to the Thessalonians.

Emerging in Gundry’s discussion of the rapture in the gospels are the same problems which surface in other posttributational approaches. Gundry does not apply the literal interpretation of prophecy in any consistent way, even though he claims to be a literalist, and it becomes very obvious that he is selecting only the facts that suit his argument, avoiding contradiction. This leads to an imperfect theological induction. When all the facts are taken into consideration, Gundry’s conclusions are shown to be questionable.

Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come

Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation

Matthew 24:30-31, and that parallel in Mark - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He comes in the clouds of heaven, and, there is a great sound of a trumpet, and He gathers His elect.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is the "go to" rapture passage and we see it correlates to Matthew: He comes in clouds, there's the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet. The "we" refers to the elect, who here it says are caught up.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 17, 2024

Kokavkrystallos said:
Matthew 24:30-31, and that parallel in Mark - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He comes in the clouds of heaven, and, there is a great sound of a trumpet, and He gathers His elect.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is the "go to" rapture passage and we see it correlates to Matthew: He comes in clouds, there's the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet. The "we" refers to the elect, who here it says are caught up.

You are combining 2A (2nd Advent) (Matt 24:30-31) and rapture verses (1 Th 4:16-17). The 2A and rapture are two separate events, that are about seven years apart.

All of Rev 4 - Rev 22 are in the future. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture. Again, Rev 4 - 22 are all in the future.

Kokavkrystallos · May 17, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are combining 2A (2nd Advent) (Matt 24:30-31) and rapture verses (1 Th 4:16-17). The 2A and rapture are two separate events, that are about seven years apart.

All of Rev 4 - Rev 22 are in the future. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture. Again, Rev 4 - 22 are all in the future.

Revelation 4:1 is John as an individual being called by a voice from heaven to receive the visions of what will happen thereafter:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

I will show THEE things.... (personal, to John)

People mistakenly think this is the rapture because of the voice like a trumpet. But that's a long stretch from 1 Thessalonians 4 that says the Lord Himself shall shout, the voice of the Archangel and the trump of God will accompany this.

In context we must look at Revelation 4:2 which is a continuation of 4:1, "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

I was in the spirit....

John himself individually is taken to heaven, because from that perspective he can best comprehend the events that follow. John is also taken in the spirit to the wilderness in Revelation 17:3 so he can see things from that perspective, which is on earth.

Ultimately, watch and pray for ye know not when the time is, as is written in Mark 13.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 17, 2024

Kokavkrystallos said:
Revelation 4:1 is John as an individual being called by a voice from heaven to receive the visions of what will happen thereafter:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

I will show THEE things.... (personal, to John)

People mistakenly think this is the rapture because of the voice like a trumpet. But that's a long stretch from 1 Thessalonians 4 that says the Lord Himself shall shout, the voice of the Archangel and the trump of God will accompany this.

In context we must look at Revelation 4:2 which is a continuation of 4:1, "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

I was in the spirit....

John himself individually is taken to heaven, because from that perspective he can best comprehend the events that follow. John is also taken in the spirit to the wilderness in Revelation 17:3 so he can see things from that perspective, which is on earth.

Ultimately, watch and pray for ye know not when the time is, as is written in Mark 13.

You are editing Rev 4:1 to omit keywords.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Jesus gave John a command: “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

The same basic command will be given to the 2W (Two Witnesses) when they are raptured to Heaven: Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Rev 4 - Rev 22 will take place in the future. The exception is Rev 3:10. That’s another pre-Trip rapture verse. Let’s go over that together, sometime.

Given that Rev 4 is in the future, verse 1 is definitely going to be the pre-Trib rapture.

One more verse: 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

What are the most likely words that will be stated by Jesus in His “cry of command,” upon the rapture?

Whether John was raptured or not, Rev 4:1 will happen in the future, exactly as laid out.

Kokavkrystallos · May 17, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are editing Rev 4:1 to omit keywords.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Jesus gave John a command: “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

The same basic command will be given to the 2W (Two Witnesses) when they are raptured to Heaven: Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Rev 4 - Rev 22 will take place in the future. The exception is Rev 3:10. That’s another pre-Trip rapture verse. Let’s go over that together, sometime.

Given that Rev 4 is in the future, verse 1 is definitely going to be the pre-Trib rapture.

One more verse: 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

What are the most likely words that will be stated by Jesus in His “cry of command,” upon the rapture?

Whether John was raptured or not, Rev 4:1 will happen in the future, exactly as laid out.

I totally agree 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. It's clear as can be. But it never gives a time. 1 Thess. 5:9 does not mean wrath is the entire tribulation. It is speaking of wrath as described in John 3:36. It's also clear that the wrath of God only occurs at the end of this tribulation period.

This also describes the wrath at the end of the tribulation:
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:13-17)

Now we go to Revelation 16:1 and see when the wrath begins to be poured out, "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

The earth has already been reaped of its harvest before that in chapter 14. After Jesus comes on the cloud and takes His own, then in verse 19, "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Jesus can come any time prior to this. If pre trib, hey, great. If not, then be prepared, and don't be among those who start saying "my Lord delayeth His coming" - and do not lose sight, and grow weary, for He will return for His elect as promised, but watch and pray for ye know not when the time is. Do I look up even now? Sure. Do I pray "Come, Lord Jesus"? Absolutely, daily that is in my prayers. That's how the disciples approached things when they were still alive, as if He might come even in their day.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 17, 2024

Kokavkrystallos said:
I totally agree 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. It's clear as can be. But it never gives a time. 1 Thess. 5:9 does not mean wrath is the entire tribulation. It is speaking of wrath as described in John 3:36. It's also clear that the wrath of God only occurs at the end of this tribulation period.

This also describes the wrath at the end of the tribulation:
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:13-17)

Now we go to Revelation 16:1 and see when the wrath begins to be poured out, "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

The earth has already been reaped of its harvest before that in chapter 14. After Jesus comes on the cloud and takes His own, then in verse 19, "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Jesus can come any time prior to this. If pre trib, hey, great. If not, then be prepared, and don't be among those who start saying "my Lord delayeth His coming" - and do not lose sight, and grow weary, for He will return for His elect as promised, but watch and pray for ye know not when the time is. Do I look up even now? Sure. Do I pray "Come, Lord Jesus"? Absolutely, daily that is in my prayers. That's how the disciples approached things when they were still alive, as if He might come even in their day.

I think I can help.

When it comes to God’s wrath, most people can’t define it. I couldn’t either for many years. The Holy Spirit led me to the verse below. It answers, at least in part, what God’s wrath is.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

God’s wrath can be in the form of wars. In the Trib, everything is oversized, substantially more vicious, etc., as the wars will be. Rev 6:4 promises wars all over the world, simultaneously. That verse is part of the 2nd seal. That verse is below:

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

In the Trib, God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal.

Paul’s first rapture verse was 1 Th 1:10:

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Paul wrote that we will be raptured before the wrath in the Trib. God’s wrath certifiably begins in the 2nd seal, in Rev 6:4, since wars in the Trib are a form of God’s wrath.

Kokavkrystallos · May 18, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
I think I can help.

When it comes to God’s wrath, most people can’t define it. I couldn’t either for many years. The Holy Spirit led me to the verse below. It answers, at least in part, what God’s wrath is.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

God’s wrath can be in the form of wars. In the Trib, everything is oversized, substantially more vicious, etc., as the wars will be. Rev 6:4 promises wars all over the world, simultaneously. That verse is part of the 2nd seal. That verse is below:

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

In the Trib, God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal.

Paul’s first rapture verse was 1 Th 1:10:

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Paul wrote that we will be raptured before the wrath in the Trib. God’s wrath certifiably begins in the 2nd seal, in Rev 6:4, since wars in the Trib are a form of God’s wrath.

Wars are a form of wrath, but not the filled up wrath of God, which are most definitely the vials, and the great winepress of the wrath of God.
We also see "day of the LORD" occasionally mentioned in conjunction with war in the O.T. but then there is THE Day of the LORD which is that which cometh as a thief in the night and the heavens and earth shake, not just in one location, but the entire world & universe.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 18, 2024

N

Kokavkrystallos said:
Wars are a form of wrath, but not the filled up wrath of God, which are most definitely the vials, and the great winepress of the wrath of God.
We also see "day of the LORD" occasionally mentioned in conjunction with war in the O.T. but then there is THE Day of the LORD which is that which cometh as a thief in the night and the heavens and earth shake, not just in one location, but the entire world & universe.

You are discounting the “dreadful judgements” in Ezekiel 14:21 that kill all of the people and animals targeted by these dreadful judgements.

Fantastic phenomena in the mountains and skies are nothing compared to the wrath that dreadfully kills.

In Rev 6:4, the 2nd seal, wars all over the planet break out. Brutal and widespread slaughter occur everywhere.

In Rev 6:8, the 4th seal, slaughter by war, famine, disease and wild beasts occur, killing 25% of the world’s population.

The early seals are God’s wrath that brutally kill more than 25% of the world’s population. I’m not saying they level mountain ranges and turn the moon blood-red. Those are scare tactics to get people to see that Almighty God is real and is all-powerful. Unbelievers will be seeing phenomena that can’t be explained other than coming from God. Hence, many will repent and turn to God.

I need to bring up Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

A careful read will reveal two distinct groups that Jesus cites. “You” will be seen to only refer to believers. “Those” will be seen to only refer to unbelievers — those folks who are left behind upon the rapture.

Only “those” are on earth during the Trib.

That “those” are unbelievers, Rev 6:10 proves there are no believers on earth as of the 4th seal. Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

1 Th 1:10 is about all believers being raptured before the dreadful punishments in the 2nd seal.

Dan Perez · May 18, 2024

Kokavkrystallos said:
Matthew 24:30-31, and that parallel in Mark - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He comes in the clouds of heaven, and, there is a great sound of a trumpet, and He gathers His elect.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is the "go to" rapture passage and we see it correlates to Matthew: He comes in clouds, there's the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet. The "we" refers to the elect, who here it says are caught up.

And most will not believe it , THAT there is no Greek word for RAPTURE in the Bible , and anyone can check the Greek text and by checking VINE'S and STRONG'S CONCORDANCE .

But Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA for the B O C IN 2 Thess 2:1

And in 2 Thess 2:3 Where the Greek word is APOSTASIA , means a DEPARTURE

And in 1 Thess 4; 17 where we are CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

And there is one more in Gal 1:4 where the word RESCUE // EXAIRO

dan p

Jeffrey Bowden · May 18, 2024

Dan Perez said:
And most will not believe it , THAT there is no Greek word for RAPTURE in the Bible , and anyone can check the Greek text and by checking VINE'S and STRONG'S CONCORDANCE .

But Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA for the B O C IN 2 Thess 2:1

And in 2 Thess 2:3 Where the Greek word is APOSTASIA , means a DEPARTURE

And in 1 Thess 4; 17 where we are CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

And there is one more in Gal 1:4 where the word RESCUE // EXAIRO

dan p

Thank you, Dan.

In 1 Th 1:10, where “delivers us” is used, that means “snatched away” according to Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology:

"The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

BobRyan · May 18, 2024

Soul_Tsunami said:
Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
Christ’s coming for His church is often designated as the Rapture. This is based on the statement of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where those who are resurrected, or translated, are “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” The idea of being “caught up” is embraced in the word rapture, or snatched up, and this is what will occur at the time of Christ’s coming for His church.

amen

Soul_Tsunami said:
The Rapture, however, stands in sharp contrast to what will occur at the Second Coming.

(1) Christ’s coming at the Rapture is to take saints from the earth to the Father’s house in heaven,

amen

They spend 1000 years in heaven with Christ
And at the same event 2 Thess 1:5-8 says all the unsaved are destroyed.

Leaving only a Jer 4:23-26 desolate Earth with "no humans" as the text says. only destroyed cities, destroyed by God Himself

Soul_Tsunami said:
in contrast to the Second Coming, when the saints will come from heaven to earth and remain in the sphere of earth

true that happens after the 1000 years of Rev 20.

Soul_Tsunami said:
(2) At the Rapture those who are “in Christ,” believers during the present age, will be resurrected from the dead, and living Christians will be translated

true

Soul_Tsunami said:
, in contrast to the Second Coming, when no one will be translated.

true

Soul_Tsunami said:
(3) At the Rapture only the church is caught up to heaven

true the church in all ages from Adam to Revelation.

Soul_Tsunami said:
in contrast to the Second Coming, when Old Testament saints and tribulation saints will be resurrected but remain in the earth.

no saints resurrected after the 1000 years - only the lost will be here waiting to be resurrected in "the second resurrection"

Soul_Tsunami said:
(9) The purpose of the Rapture is to take saints from earth to heaven,

true.

Soul_Tsunami said:
(10) At the Rapture there is no judgment of the world, whereas Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that Gentiles will be judged in regard to entering the millennial kingdom. Also, Jews will experience a similar judgment (Ezek. 20:33-38).

The same rapture event "our gathering together to him" 2 Thess 2:1-4 is the event where all the lost are slain 2 Thess 1:5-8

Soul_Tsunami said:
(11) If all the saints had been raptured at the time of the Second Coming and met Christ in the air

Which is what we see in Matt 24:29-33

Soul_Tsunami said:
, the judgment of the Gentiles in Matthew 25:31-46 would be unnecessary, because there would have already been a separation of the saints from those not saved while Christ was coming from heaven to earth (1 Thess. 4:16-17).

Christ does not come at all until the Dan 7 judgment is completed and while that judgment in heaven is going on - the saints are persecuted according to the text of Dan 7. Persecution of the saints ends as 2 Thess 1:5-8 says - by Christ appearing in power and glory and destroying the wicked. Then comes the 1000 year millennium in heaven.

Soul_Tsunami said:
The fact that this judgment takes place after the Second Coming, when they are still intermingled, is proof that the Rapture did not take place as a part of the Second Coming.

Matt 24 says it does take place at Christ's coming.
Matt 25 speaks of the coming of Christ in Rev 20 -- the saints are with Him in the New Jerusalem "on His right" -- in the position of favor.
The wicked are there because of the 2nd resurrection and they have surrounded "the camp of the saints" as Rev 20.

The are separated since He already took the saints and since now the wicked are all outside , and the saints are all inside the city.

Soul_Tsunami said:
(15) The world probably will not see Christ at the time of the Rapture as the church will be taken out

Everyone sees Christ at the rapture Rev 1:7 every eye will see him
Matt 24 - 29-33 all humans see him coming in great power and glory - then He sends forth His elect to gather His saints from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Peter 1:13 the entire focus of the NT church is on "The grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" - which is what all the NT texts refer to -- speaking of His coming.

BobRyan · May 18, 2024

Dan Perez said:
But Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA for the B O C IN 2 Thess 2:1

And in 2 Thess 2:3 Where the Greek word is APOSTASIA , means a DEPARTURE

And in 1 Thess 4; 17 where we are CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

And there is one more in Gal 1:4 where the word RESCUE // EXAIRO

dan p

amen

And as we see in Matt 17 that body of Christ includes Moses and Elijah standing with Christ on the mt of Transfiguration because as Paul says in Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel,,, and adds that "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 so the rapture is for the saints of all ages.

Dan Perez · May 18, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Thank you, Dan.

In 1 Th 1:10, where “delivers us” is used, that means “snatched away” according to Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology:

"The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

And this is a great verse to prove PRE-TRIB COMING BY Christ to take GRACE believers to HEAVEN .

The Greek word DELIVERED // RY0MAI , is in the

Greek Present tense , and is in the MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE S and is a PARICIPLE and in the ACCUSATIVE CASE and is SINGULAR .

WRATH // ORGE , in the GENITIVE CASE , and in the SINGULAR .

TO COME // ERCHOMAI , in the Present tense , MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE a PARTICPLE in the Genitive CASE , in the SINGULAR

dan p

SavedByGrace3 · May 21, 2024

I wonder if someone could expound upon Romans 13, where God

Romans 13:1-5 KJV
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

It sounds like God set up these rulers to execute wrath upon those who do evil... including believers. Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

Kokavkrystallos · May 21, 2024

SavedByGrace3 said:
I wonder if someone could expound upon Romans 13, where God

Romans 13:1-5 KJV
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

It sounds like God set up these rulers to execute wrath upon those who do evil... including believers. Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

Well, if a believer does evil, that is, breaks the law, yes - absolutely. A Christian must be held to a higher standard than the world in such regards. In other words, the sinner doesn't care too much about laws and authority. The believer should be keeping the laws of the land, except where they would conflict with the law of God.

Dan Perez · May 21, 2024

SavedByGrace3 said:
I wonder if someone could expound upon Romans 13, where God

Romans 13:1-5 KJV
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

It sounds like God set up these rulers to execute wrath upon those who do evil... including believers. Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

I could do that , but any one can do it by googling BLUE LETTER BIBLE r BIBLE HUB and it will say what the Tenses , Cases , Moods and Voices mean >

dan p

A Rapture Study on Pre Wrath

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Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming​

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Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming