Again, you throw up a strawman argument about claiming I am suggesting, some people are sinless, which I never even suggested.
Never said you did. What you do miss is that sin is not a people only situation. There are other operators involved that are not people.
A lot is made of the fact Paul switched to the present tense in these verses, but was there a reason that the Roman reader to pick up on this switch and better understand what Paul was saying? We are reading other peoples mail to Romans in Rome during the first century, so what would be the best way to communicate a huge victory over sin to them?
The "Victory" was not counting sins against people.
But the war remains ongoing in case you missed that part
When Mark describes in his Gospel is Christ’s great battle with a climatic victory being Christ rising, he wrote it in the “historic present tense”. Supporting the idea Mark was in Rome at the time.
Beside the point, whatever point you're trying to make
As to tense, there is no doubt that Paul had evil present withIN him, causing his mind to sin in thought ala Mark 7:21-23
What Paul is describing in Romans 7: 14-24 is a great battle and final climatic victory over sin in the “historic present tense”.
Yet Paul's flesh still served the "law of sin," vs. 25, so maybe not get the victory cart in front of the horse?
Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever, but what “purpose” does it have in the believer life?
Why differentiate? Our sin is no different than that of any person. Paul claimed to be "chief of same" present tense, 1 Tim. 1:9
When Deity dwelled unquenched in a human (Christ) it did not sin, so does deity dwell within Christians, so the problem is really the quenching of the Spirit?
I'd suggest that there was one huge colossal difference involved, being only ONE was without sin. No one else has that claim. It is held only by God in Christ.
On every major street corner in Rome were monuments to some great Roman victory, some parts of these monuments are in museums today and below each is given an exciting climatic description of the battle in the “historic present tense”. This was the same description carried by messengers sent out by the general over the Roman Empire, after a great victory.
I'd suggest your figures don't figure. We all deal with adversaries unseen. So if your quest is to make some other claim, be clear about it. The devil still exists and sin still exists and death still exists. So your "victory claim" is not yet completed and won't be until the end of the devil and his messengers.
Similar to this Roman section on (the war and victory over sin) is Mark’s whole Gospel of Christ’s war against satan’s follows of this world”.
As far as Ro. 7: 14-24
The Gospel of Mark was mimicking the messages that were sent out by the Roman generals after winning a great battle. These messages went with messengers to dramatically present the battle with the victory at the end, to the cheers of the crowd. They were always in the present tense and we have some copies that were written in stone under the battle monuments that were spread throughout Rome. The Gospel of Mark is written in the style of these Victory Messages sent by the Roman General to the Roman Empire and Mark’s is very much a victory message. Do you think, Paul in keep with the Roman culture of the day, would have written His victorious battle over sin in the present tense to the Romans in Rome?
Mimicking Roman generals? Unlikely. Nice imagination stab, but a rather hollow analogy considering that mankind had been at war for thousands of years before "Roman generals" besides the ongoing unseen war with our adverse spiritual adversaries that are impetus behind all war and killing.
It is called the “historic present tense”, by scholars and would fit what Paul was saying to the Romans.
This topic and the use of Romans 7: 14-24 come up a lot and a lot has been written on it.
The context helps and you need to address these questions:
IF your claim is that Paul was sinless because of Christ, you'd be quite entirely off the page.
Paul wrote of his situation in the present tense application and it still applies the same way to everyone to this day.
1. When did Paul learn about “coveting”?
That the law promoted sin, which Paul termed "no longer I" to input illegal thoughts into his mind, and thereby he determined that evil was present withIN him.
2. When did this problem start for Paul?
We are all born as blinded sinners, timing in or out of the womb notwithstanding. I'd suggest at the moment of our creation, Psalm 51:5
3. Does Paul continue in the misery and what would relief this misery?
Paul spent his entire life in grief, Romans 9:2
4. Is “just being forgiven” a good solution to the problem?
There is only one solution and that hasn't transpired yet.
5. When did Paul obtain the solution?
You're trying to isolate Paul from having to deal internally with the tempter. I'd suggest you're barking up the wrong tree with that angle because it was never a question of just Paul or just people to start with.
Where is our adversary in YOUR picture? You basically don't have a adversary or you trumpet your victory while still being a sinner. Sorry, doesn't work or compute.
The answer to the problem of sinning while here on earth is solved with Romans chapter 8 and the indwelling holy Spirit.
Christ condemned sin in sinful flesh. That hasn't changed. YET sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19 which again brings us back to the basic point.
We are all being temped by sin, but True Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit to overcome those temptations. Ro. 3:9
Look, you really are beating around the bush on this subject. We ALL have evil thoughts that defile us. Now even in your theology world you're not avoiding that fact. The only part you're missing is the other party that is behind it all.
And THAT was the entire point of the opening post concerning Adam, Eve and the sin of the DEVIL in them both.
2 Cor. 12:7 talks about the help he receives from satan’s thorn in the flesh Paul was given, but that is not satan himself living in Paul.
Paul was exceptionally clear it was a messenger of Satan aka as a DEVIL, not "thee" devil, but "they" are all from the same seed, the same family, the same kingdom. The devil has children too aka seeds, tares, thorns, goats, etc.
Gal. 4: 14 “and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.”
Nice spin on turning "temptation" into ILLNESS. I guess you could spin it that way but the messenger of Satan is not an illness. Might cause illness, but no. Temptations defile all of us and Paul's temptations were spelled out quite clearly in Romans 7:7-13, lustful thoughts.
We all get sick sometimes while on earth, but that can help us.
boy, you just really don't care to drag the devils into these pictures do you?
WHY is that? No wonder to me.
1 Cor. 10: 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
We can use our failures of the past as part of our witness, since we are no longer the same person.
You're fixated on a people only positions. No use in scripture understandings at all because you're missing a very critical piece. You know, the one you can't even bring into the pictures.
All mature adults have sinned in the past, but the indwelling Spirit does not sin, but we can quench the Spirit and sin.
Brilliant conclusion except for the fact that we all have evil thoughts that defile us and that sin is of the devil.
The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
The point again being is that one of the parties in the "lump of me" is as Paul said, "NO LONGER I."
There "will be" permanent retribution to THOSE PARTIES on the horizon.
This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).
Your diatribes just miss the obvious and revolve only around people. It's actually quite funny that you can't bring the devil, our very real ADVERSARY into any of these pictures.
Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?
Again you miss a very basic point "because" you can't bring the other party into the picture. The "eldest" is a representative of a blinded slave of Satan, ala Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2
I'm sure you can see "this fact" is the condition of the "first born."
The 2nd person, the born again person SEES their condition and resists our enemy, our adversary, our prior CAPTOR.
So was it Esau that was hated? Never. It was always the enemy who is hated and that is not PEOPLE, yet is with people. Paul again isolates this exact fact, the spirit of slumber or stupor, that God put upon not only all of Israel, but upon all people. The born again person SEES this fact.
The "war" between "Ishmael" and "Isaac" is a war fought within US, the believers. Clueless people remain slaves.
If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?
Has nothing to do with only people. I think we've isolated your one sided sight long enough quite frankly.
I basically reject your one sided views as void of the obvious BUT unseen factor in operations from cover to cover in the scriptures. A fact that your positions simply have no answer for.
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