Lemmings

This is from the Old Testament, but I believe that we can see some parallels here from what was going on then to what is happening in our day and time. And I am going to speak of what I have witnessed in my own nation, the USA. For I have watched, from childhood to adulthood, the slow and gradual spiritual and moral decline of the church. And I have lived in 10 different cities in 5 different US states over the course of my 75 years of life, and I have been involved in Christian ministry most of my life in the church.

I grew up under the Christian & Missionary Alliance church denomination, but where the C&MA (now just called The Alliance) was not available, we also participated with other church denominations such as Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist, and/or non-denominational. Now, church denominations are not the church, but that is where we gathered with the church, the body of Christ, for the teaching of the Word, for Christian fellowship, for communion, for prayer, and for Christian ministry.

These gatherings of the church, some or most of them, anyway, used to be very spiritually focused on teaching the Scriptures, in emphasizing holy living and walks of faith in obedience to the Lord Jesus. Sharing the truth of the gospel with the people of the world was of upmost importance, as was being biblically literate. We used to gather twice on Sundays and every Wednesday evening, and throughout the week we had small group Bible studies in people’s homes. Following Jesus in obedience was being taught.

But in the 1950’s “the church” (overall) was talked into incorporating (merging, uniting, combining) with the state (the ungodly) and turning their gatherings into businesses to be marketed to the people of the world, just like any other business, both of which God forbids in the Scriptures. And so many of them began attending marketing seminars and reading marketing literature on how to grow their churches and on how to draw in large crowds of people from the world into their gatherings. And things went downhill.

[Matthew 21:12-13; John 2:13-17; Acts 5:27-32; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Philippians 3:18-19; Revelation 2-3; Revelation 13:5-8; Revelation 18:1-5]

Then, in order to attract people from the world to their gatherings they became more worldly, and marketing tricks and schemes began to take precedence over truth and righteousness. Compromises to the truth of the gospel, in order to appease human flesh and to not offend the ungodly, began to become common place. Pastors were turning into entertainers, and a small group of musicians were now “the worship team” leading the people to all sing in unison (no more hymn books) to often spiritually weak songs.

And I am giving an overall picture here, so not all of this will apply to every church congregation or gathering, but this is the big picture. The church in the USA, overall, has gone the way of the world to attract the world, and the truth of the gospel has taken a huge hit, and the purpose of the church has also taken a huge hit in a downward spiral. And so many people now who call themselves Christians are not living much differently from the people who make no professions of faith in the Lord Jesus. And God is grieved!

Now the Scriptures (Old Testament and New Testament) warn us of a day when God will judge his people (see Revelation 2-3) for their rebellion against him and his word, for diluting his gospel, and for living worldly and ungodly lives focused on self and on self-pleasure, and not on walks of obedience to our Lord and to his commands in surrender to his will, in self-denial and in dying to sin. And I personally believe that we are now beginning to see some of those judgments on my nation, the USA.


For Our Nation

Professionally recorded in Nashville, TN
Via Gerry Peters, music producer and arranger
An Original Work / September 11, 2012
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Bombs are bursting. Night is falling.
Jesus Christ is gently calling
You to follow Him in all ways.
Trust Him with your life today.
Make Him your Lord and your Savior.
Turn from your sin. Follow Jesus.
He will forgive you of your sin;
Cleanse your heart, made new within.

Men betraying: Our trust fraying.
On our knees to God we’re praying,
Seeking God to give us answers
That are only found in Him.
God is sovereign over all things.
Nothing from His mind escaping.
He has all things under His command,
And will work all for good.

Jesus Christ is gently calling
You to follow Him in all ways.

Men deceiving: We’re believing
In our Lord, and interceding
For our nation and its people
To obey their God today.
He is our hope for our future.
For our wounds He offers suture.
He is all we need for this life.
Trust Him with your life today.

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They Have Turned Their Back to God
An Original Work / July 11, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

FireDragon76 said:

Don't give it too much relevance. Tiktok and social media can amplify unusual beliefs or attitudes in ways that aren't helpful, or actually reflective of the real world. Furthermore, some people subconsciously or conscious are using Tiktok to get attention. Attention, positive or negative, gets monetized on these platforms.

I've seen alot of purple haired types at my local coffee shop, with more nose rings than my shower curtain, but, I've never met one of these "therians".

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According to the info I read, Therians in general don't have an appearance that distinguishes them as such.

rjs330 said:

I was wondering if you did.

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No you didn’t. You know I’m a massive big brain.

Fervent said:

The title reminds me of that old joke question...did you stop beating your wife?

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I’ve never liked that supposed conundrum; the correct answer is ‘no’.

bbbbbbb said:

Genesis 9:8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”

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The first/natural waters destroyed the natural man. Per plan. The natural man has always been fated for (eventual) termination.

The fate of the 2nd man awaits is not realized until we put off the so called "mortal coil" and are "made spirits." 1 Cor. 15:42-56

Isaiah 54:
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

So yes, some read Jesus' Words of "as in the days of Noah" and they see DOOM and GLOOM. And it will be DOOM and GLOOM for the devil and his messengers.

But NOT for people. That is another matter altogether

David Lamb said:

The wording of your link says that the car was the cargo ("dummy payload") on board a space rocket:

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Correct

JohnClay said:

You seem to be saying that the Jews before the Sadducees did believe in Heaven and Hell but I don't think the Bible supports that.

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Why would you think I am saying that John?
Perhaps I am not understanding what you are trying to find out.
I thought you wanted to know why the Sadducees didn't believe in the afterlife... or resurrection.

You said:

I was wondering why they didn't believe in the afterlife.

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How did heaven and hell get into the picture?
There is nothing in the Bible suggesting that the Sadducees didn't believe in heaven or hell. Nor that they did.
The Bible says they didn't believe in resurrection, nor angels nor spirit. Acts 23:6-8

According to secular sources, the Sadducees were known for their strict adherence to the written Torah and rejected the oral traditions of the Pharisees.
One source states Josephus, says:
The Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers”.

What I said to you, is the reason for this is the Sadducees are made up of some of the Jews who were in captivity to Babylon. This sect, would have deviated from the Jewish teachings, because the Torah, the Prophets and Writings contain teachings on the resurrection, angels, and spirit.
According to Nehemiah, a lot of the leading Jews - priests among them, married foreign women, and their children did not know the Jewish culture... obviously because the foreign mothers educated their children in their culture.
So, that is one explanation, as well as the fact that some of the returning Jews opposed God's teachings for greedy and selfish gain.

Is that what you read?

JohnClay said:

My point was that the novel about Titan seemed to get a lot of things right, similar to your Persia, etc, example. Yet people would just believe it is a coincidence.

My quote is about apparent supernatural phenomena and God. It isn't really related to the flat earth. I've asked some atheists about the Persia/Babylon prophecies and I'll see what they say.

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The Bible says that God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and Sulphur.
Archaeological evidence suggests that a catastrophic event led to the destruction of ancient cities in the region. This event is believed to have caused intense heat, fire, and the release of sulfur.

What do you think atheist will say about that?
What every skeptic of the Bible will say...
"It possibly involving a meteor impact or a natural disaster, some cosmic airburst, such as an exploding meteor or comet, could have caused widespread destruction, including a high-temperature thermal pulse and a hypervelocity blast wave that devastated the area, and the Jews got confused and attributed it to some deity, and then wrote some story, and it got put in their book."
LOL

JohnClay said:

BTW what do you think about my upside down Bible and Connect 4 stories? Do you think they were coincidences and had nothing to do with some kind of God? I think their likelihood is extremely low.

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I didn't read about them.
Perhaps you can give a brief summary.
I can tell you though, that most things do have something to do with some kind of God, and are not coincidental.
There are two forces at work and both have interests in our lives - the God of darkness, and the God of light.

I accept the evidence that supports the truthfulness of the Bible.
So, I believe every word, as I have good reason to do so. I'm not skeptical about God and the Bible.
What it says has all proved true.

Did you know the Bible actually prophesied what we are seeing today, which is baffling officials about what to do about the world's crisis?
It's all there in the Bible... like reading today's news... yesterday.


What do you think about the increasing global crisis... their causes and impact?

FireDragon76 said:

What do you mean by "God remains the same"? this could suggest some kind of platonic metaphysics that I don't think captures the relational, dynamic nature of the Trinitarian God.

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In this context, I simply mean that God is God regardless of human opinions about God. What is true of Him persists regardless of how we understand Him.

FireDragon76 said:

The story of the Syrophoenician woman and Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well are good examples of the dynamic I am speaking of. God isn't a unity without distinctions, but a communion of Persons, each involved in perichoeretic movement. Perichoresis means "to make space for others", a kind of "dance", which suggests movement and dynamism, not Platonic stasis.

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Yes, I also oppose the Platonic idea of God's impassivity. That is not what I was getting at with my contention that God is objective.

jmldn2 said:

1. May I express that I once was a "church going christian" for years and years and years.
2. I need no excuse to say I no longer attend a brick and mortar building called a "church." That does not mean I am "taking the easy way." Nothing about the Christian life is "easy."
3. As for work, I was a nursery worker in church, Sunday School Teacher, member of many Bible Studies, took my children every Sunday, Wednesday and brought them up in knowledge of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Jesus is concerned with our Hearts/Souls and not how regularly we "work."
4. The "narrow door" is not the church building but believing in the the Lord Jesus Christ, giving Him our total trust and living as best we can by following His Way. The Pharisees and other "workers, strict followers of the Law" thought they had it down pat too.
5. I did not stop going to that building because of "frustration, etc" but I stopped going to that building whenever my step daughter (my husband's only daughter) committed suicide and NOT ONE PASTOR, LAY PERSON, came to our door to give my husband one bit of help.

The "church" is not that building, whether or not it is a big building, little building but the "church" is the Body of Christ believers.

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I am sorry to hear about your step-daughter. The fault in the lack of help was not the building's, but the membership of the church. Please don't imagine that all churches are the same. All the local churches of which I have been a member in my 50-plus years as a Christian had members who showed great care for one another. But I stress that none of this has anything to do with whether a particular church has its own brick and mortar building, or meets for worship in a hired hall, a private home, or even in the open air.

BobRyan said:

N. T. Wright is a partial Preterist so in his view a lot of Bible focus sort of stops at 70 AD - destruction of Jerusalem (I think some Preterists call that the second coming but Wright does not apparently).

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I considered myself a partial preterist and I never thought that. Rather it is John's baptists preaching of the wrath that was coming to those under the law, which began in 70 ad. Faith in Christ was the a way of escape...

BobRyan said:

I think that a straight forward reading of the Bible supports pre-millennial positions make more sense than the preterism.

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Paul speaks here of Gentiles vs Jew's. Jew's are judged by the law, And thee wrath and curse they were under was coming...
Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

BobRyan said:

Paul was an evangelist focused on outreach to gentiles - and there is no way that letters to gentiles were going to focus on non-Christian Jews in Jerusalem as the main point.

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Gentiles were being persuaded to become Jew's for a reason? Paul was addressing this....

BobRyan said:

Phil 3 focus - is pretty obvious to a gentile believer -
18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is the focus for every funeral according to Paul - and is not talking about non-Christian Jews dying in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

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Wrath and cursing are prophesied in the law to Jew's under the law. It was coming.


The whole law

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

This generation here.........

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And here : The apostles to the Jew's

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Have you read the law????

God punishing Israel with the curse and his wrath (of long continuance)


De 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

Deut 25:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: {whom he … : or, who had not given to them any portion } {given: Heb. divided }
27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

The Gospel to the Gentiles is an escape from Gods wrath as well......
De 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deut 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

Partial Preterism?
I don't know what you would call this. I call it fulfillment of the prophetic utterances of the law being fulfilled.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Sailng trophies rocked our nation

DBASF

I suppose mine might be considered unique, in that I find the whole discussion extremely tiring and would rather just find out when it happens. My sole concern is to make sure that I eat the lamb with my walking stick in hand and my sandals on my feet.

Though I do fall into the post-mil camp, but just because I agree that the eschaton was inaugurated with the resurrection and every day since is about the inbreaking of the kingdom of God.

essentialsaltes said:

Let me quote it again for you.

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I dont believe thats how class action suits are supposed to work.

Several conservatives, including Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas, warned against courts using class-action litigation to essentially supplant the kind of nationwide injunction the court had just shot down.

“Lax enforcement of the requirements” for certifying a class, Alito wrote in an opinion joined by Thomas, “would create a potentially significant loophole to today’s decision.”

Federal courts, he added, “should thus be vigilant against such potential abuses of these tools.”

Whether Laplante’s decision is an “abuse” or exactly what the Supreme Court had in mind will likely wind up back before the justices in short order.

A class action begins when lead plaintiffs file a complaint in court on behalf of a larger group. This document outlines the facts, names the defendant, defines the proposed class, and details the legal claims. This filing pauses the statute of limitations, or the legal deadline for filing a claim, for all potential class members.

Following the initial filing, the plaintiffs’ attorneys file a motion for class certification. The defendant has the opportunity to oppose this motion, leading to a hearing where both sides present arguments. The judge then issues an order either granting or denying certification.

If the class is certified, a formal notice is sent to all potential class members explaining the lawsuit and their rights. The case then proceeds through discovery, where both sides exchange evidence, and moves toward either a settlement or a trial.

Bob Crowley said:

It obviously depends on the context.

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I've related this before but when I was still a new Christian and getting to know the pastor, he told me about an episode in his own church. This would be 40 or so years ago now.

There was a young parishioner who was riding his motorbike dangerously, stupidly. I know the pastor rode a motor bike himself in his own younger years.

So with due pastoral responsibility he warned the young bloke about his riding. He said it was obvious to everyone. I don't think I ever met this young fellow as I suspect it was about the same time I joined the church.

But the pastor said he felt a bit guilty about the way he warned him. He said he found that what he said happened and I can vouch that several of his predictions have occurred. I'm still waiting for a couple more.

What he said was "If you don't smarten up and start riding more carefully, you won't last two weeks!" He told me he buried the bike rider two weeks later to the day from warning him. He didn't last two weeks. Like he said, he found his words tended to happen.

He said he wished he'd used different terminology. He was correct in giving a pastoral warning, but unintentionally and prophetically predicted the result.

That's one case I can think of where a pastor regretted the exact wording.

That's not to say the pastor caused the chap's death. That was his own responsibility and the chances are he would have taken no notice either way.

It's a bit like the bloke sitting by the pool of Siloam for 38 years. He went around spreading word about his healing. Christ caught up with him and said ... “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you. The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well."

There's an inference here that the chap may have "sinned" more and a worse thing came upon him, but Scripture is silent on the issue. Yet I think it's inferred. Otherwise why would the writer put it in there?

Christ healed him as part of His pastoral care, but he also warned him in His pastoral role.

You would think that sleeping in my Aunt Angela's room would bring me some kind of peace or comfort, but all it did was leave me feeling heartbroken because I knew that in the morning she would not be there to give me a hug.

When a reporter demanded to know why the summer camps along the Guadalupe River weren’t evacuated before its waters reached their deadly peak on July 4, Rob Kelly, the highest-ranking local official, had a simple answer: “No one knew this kind of flood was coming.”

Why not? Kerr County, Texas, had lots of history to go on — as Kelly went on to explain: “We have floods all the time. This is the most dangerous river valley in the United States.” The National Weather Service had even brought in extra staff that night. Most important, the service had issued three increasingly dire warnings early that morning — at 1:14 a.m., 4:03 a.m. and 6:06 a.m.

What Kelly didn’t mention, but which has since become well known, is that the Weather Service employee whose job it was to make sure those warnings got traction — Paul Yura, the long-serving meteorologist in charge of “warning coordination” — had recently taken an unplanned early retirement amid cuts pushed by the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. He was not replaced.

Pommer said:

What? I didn’t know that Al Capone was a bank robber!?

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Capone famously did hang out in St. Paul when things got hot, but I think I should have said it was Karpis and Barker who robbed the Northwestern National Bank. That bank was hit MANY times. It was a way too easy target. The MO was to hit the bank on the east bank of the Mississippi still in Minneapolis and drive east into St. Paul about a mile away through my old neighborhood to St. Paul. St. Paul was a refuge when things got too hot for the gangstas in Chicago, and they didn't allow Minneapolis police in St. Paul.

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The Day Baby Sophia Taught Our Silent Parrot to Talk!​

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