essentialsaltes said:

What if you (or your boss) has access to Obama's time machine?

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Sure are putting a lot of mileage on that old thing.

-- A2SG, Hitler, get in the cupboard.....

We who have trusted in Jesus Christ to be Lord and Savior of our lives, by God-persuaded faith in him, which is not of our own doing, but of God, we have been crucified with Christ in death to sin and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life in him, no longer to live as slaves to sin, but as slaves to God and to his righteousness. Now our lives belong to Jesus, and he is to be our Lord (Owner-Master), and our lives are to be dedicated to his service. And we are to be those who are walking in obedience to his commands.

Gospel:[Matthew 7:13-14,21-23; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-30; Acts 26:18; Romans 2:5-10; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-22; Galatians 5:16-24; Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-6; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 3:1-19; Hebrews 12:1-2; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 1:1-10; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 2:1-29; Revelation 3:1-22]

And we who are ministers of the gospel, in taking the message of the gospel to the people of the world, are to be those who echo with Paul that “we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God” (v.2). Yet, there are so many people today who claim to know our Lord, and who are in positions of Christian ministry, who absolutely are walking in craftiness and are adulterating the word of God. And that is a very sad reality within the gatherings of the church today.

Now, we are all human. All of us who are following Jesus Christ with our lives are but clay in the hands of the Potter (God), being molded and shaped into his image. None of us can do what we do in the name of God in our own flesh, and then have it be of God. We are totally reliant upon the Lord to teach us, to shape us, and to make us into the people of God he wants us to be to be used for his purposes and for his glory in ministering to the body of Christ and in taking the message of the gospel to the people of the world.

And especially since so much of “the church” is of the will of man, and not of the will of God, and because so many have gone the way of the world in order to win the world to their worldly gatherings, if you are someone whose life is sold out to Jesus, to follow his teachings, to obey his commands, and to teach what he taught and what his New Testament apostles taught as the truth of the gospel, in the correct biblical context, then you may well be faced with persecution and rejection, even from those within “the church.”

For who were Jesus’ greatest opponents and persecutors? They were the rulers and leaders and people of influence within the temple of God. And they were his own people, even his own family. And they were those who professed faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – Father, Son Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit – although they mostly did not believe that Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah of Israel. And so many of them made it their aim to persecute Jesus, and eventually they had him put to death.

And Jesus himself promised us that if we become his disciples, which is what it means to believe in him, that we will be hated and persecuted as he was hated and persecuted, and by many of the same kinds of people who profess faith in the same God as we worship. But no matter how much we must suffer for the sake of the name of Jesus, and for the sake of the gospel, we must not let it defeat us. Yes, it hurts! I feel that every day. But this is part of God’s plan for us to humble us, and to make us into his holy people.

[Matthew 5:10-12; Matthew 10:16-25,34-39; Matthew 24:9-14; Luke 6:22-23; Luke 12:49-53; Luke 21:12-17; John 15:18-21; Ephesians 6:10-20; Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 11:1-3; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 13:1-18; Revelation 14:1-13]

As the Deer

By Martin J. Nystrom
Based off Psalm 42:1

As the deer panteth for the water
So my soul longeth after You
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship You

You alone are my strength, my shield
To You alone may my spirit yield
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship You

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This Treasure in Earthen Vessels
An Original Work / November 4, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Hans Blaster said:

Why are their solutions such blatant violation of the Constitution?

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Who's gonna stop him after he uses Trump's favorite word?

(Still to be resolved, how Trump's favorite word applies to people moving from state to state.)

JM said:

When I first entered the Lutheran Church I asked my Pastor if we should kneel during the Elevation of the Host, at the Elevation of the Chalice, and at the Pax Domini:, he replied no. My new Pastor has instructions in the bulletin to kneel. I'm a happy man.

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God bless him!! If I recall rightly, the rubrics state that it is appropriate to kneel at the end of the Sanctus through to the end of the Pax Domini.

When our congregation grew in the 30s and 40s, it was renovated to accommodate more people. The front entrance was changed to a side entrance, a new organ was built in the gallery creating a choir loft, kneelers were removed so pews could be pushed together; additional pews were added at the back, a chancel was added allowing more pews to be installed at the front. We could lose the extra pews and install kneelers today, and still accommodate "big" services.

November 2, 2025
Job 19:25 KJV

25For I knowthatmy redeemer liveth, andthathe shall stand at the latterdayupon the earth

My Interpetation:

Praise God to Believe in what God says about you and the New Testament makes me into Jesus Character amd traits to have what God says I will have and with victory

essentialsaltes said:

The education deficit is certainly having an effect.
View attachment 372681

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The comments on that tweet were hilarious.

eleos1954 said:

the Holy Spirit helps overcome sin by convicting believers of sin, guiding them with wisdom, and transforming their desires to align with God's will.

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I agree with you that the Holy Spirit helps to guide us and transform our desires to align with God's, but it does not convict us of sin. It may be through the transforming our desires to align with God's that we start to feel guilty in regards to our sin, but that is not the Holy Spirit convicting us.

All sin was forgiven at the cross. All mankind has received this forgiveness whether they are a believer or not. God tearing the temple curtain was a visual display of this fact. No one guilty of sin was allowed beyond that curtain, not even the high priest. Only after he had been cleansed of his sins could he then enter through the curtain into the presence of God. Tearing that curtain from top to bottom was God's way of showing the world that everyone has been cleansed of their sins and can now freely come into the presence of God for salvation.

So in John 16:8-9 when Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit convicting the world of their sins, He isn't referring to their sins as in behavior. There is no more sin at this point to be convicted of. It has all been forgiven. Remember, the Holy Spirit doesn't come until after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension has occurred. The only thing left at this point to convict the world of is their unbelief, which we see in verse 9.

Ed Parenteau said:

I agree with some and disagree with some.
Can you explain how salvation came before the cross? Otherwise, how would anyone be resurrected and go to heaven unless they've been saved. But Hebrews tells us that salvation hadn't yet been consummated at the time of its being written.
or, Christ being the first to rise from the dead? If His resurrection is about His physical resurrection, we know others were physically resurrected before Him.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

Acts 26:23
Hethat the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,

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Those verses are not talking preeminence. He as a human being is preeminent above all people. He is God's firstborn, the only begotten.
He owns the earth and everything in it. It is not talking first as in the first one.
fyi. I am not saying he is not God. He has always been Jehovah the word. But God became a man and as a man he is first above all men. Lord of all. That is what those verses are referencing. Look at the interlinear and the Greek words. You'll see that.

NYC just dug it's grave now lie in it!

Sad for his family and friends.

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Good video regarding dinosaurs.

I have now accomplished the laborious narrative of the decline and fall of the Roman empire, from the fortunate age of Trajan and the Antonines, to its total extinction in the West, about five centuries after the Christian era. At that unhappy period, the Saxons fiercely struggled with the natives for the possession of Britain: Gaul and Spain were divided between the powerful monarchies of the Franks and Visigoths, and the dependent kingdoms of the Suevi and Burgundians: Africa was exposed to the cruel persecution of the Vandals, and the savage insults of the Moors: Rome and Italy, as far as the banks of the Danube, were afflicted by an army of Barbarian mercenaries, whose lawless tyranny was succeeded by the reign of Theodoric the Ostrogoth. All the subjects of the empire, who, by the use of the Latin language, more particularly deserved the name and privileges of Romans, were oppressed by the disgrace and calamities of foreign conquest; and the victorious nations of Germany established a new system of manners and government in the western countries of Europe. The majesty of Rome was faintly represented by the princes of Constantinople, the feeble and imaginary successors of Augustus. Yet they continued to reign over the East, from the Danube to the Nile and Tigris; the Gothic and Vandal kingdoms of Italy and Africa were subverted by the arms of Justinian; and the history of the Greek emperors may still afford a long series of instructive lessons, and interesting revolutions. (The History of the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 4, Chap. 38, pgs. 116 & 17 of the Everyman's Library edition)

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From the writings of Gibbons thus far, it seems apparent that the history of Christianity and the fall of the Roman Empire were more than just concurrent events. They were distinct interactive agents of cause and effect upon each other. A sort of New Covenant era repetition of Old Covenant Israel’s successes and consequent failures, due exactly to those successes or victories over their enemies if you will. The divinely inspired religion of Christianity basically conquered pagan Rome. The effect of this success though, was akin to that of ancient Israel’s successes, in dropping their guard and slipping into pagan influenced apostasies over and again. The apostate decline and fall of Christianity within the Roman Empire, coinciding with the decline and fall of the Empire itself, being repeatedly conquered by the barbarians from the north. The exact punishments which Israel suffered time and again due to their apostasies of illicit relationships and dependents upon the pagan kingdoms around them, which included Israel’s participation in the pagan beliefs and practices of these very same nations.

Jer 4:5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities. 6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. 8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. 9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. 10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. 11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. 13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? 15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. 16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. 17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD. 18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.

Jer 6:22 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth. 23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

Jer 13:19 The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive. 20 Lift up your eyes, and behold them that come from the north: where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?

Ezk 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

And so after many apostasies Israel and the temple were finally given into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon from the north.

I had a crazy dream this morning.

We're waiting for train at a train station.
When a train arrived, it was one which looks like what you'd find in an amusement park, one for kiddies----
the seats were SO TINY and LOW. I said: Looks like the trains now are managed by Dept of Education - early childhood division.

By the way, all my shared stories & satires have been moved to another forum. Within a few hours, I got very warm & encouraging reactions.
One reader even says: "I love this story so much...." She is a writer herself !

Delvianna said:

I don't think its a case of just knowing they exist, but the teaching that it's promoting actually doing it. Like, you have your family saying it's a sin, but the teacher is saying it's okay to do and then encourages it. And since parents are not allowed to opt out, that's a problem within itself and gets into the realm of indoctrination where the state is in control over what they want to teach when it comes to morality issues, and you have no say in the matter. Why are kids being taught this at all in general? What happened to focusing on math, science, history and other lessons? Schools should leave morality and sexuality to the parents.

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I'll agree that teachers have a challenging job talking about this topic.

One reason that morality has to come into education, at least a little, is that you have a bunch of students in the same classroom, and they need to be able to function together without hurting each other too badly. The student who's gay, or whose parents are a married gay couple, or who is trans, needs to be able to feel safe enough in school that they can concentrate on their studies. So that's where some of the anti-bullying lessons come in. Most of education is subject matter -- math, science, language, etc. -- but some of education is teaching students how to behave courteously in a group of people, even when that group includes people you disagree with.

On May 26, 2023, the Lord led me to write a short (29 page) book on the subject of church abuse. Yesterday I shared the introduction into the book’s content, and in the video portion of that I shared some of my background. And I will tell you here that I am almost 76 years of age, a teacher of the Scriptures for over 50 years, and called of God 21 years ago to write down what he is teaching me each day from his word and to post these writings on the internet, and that is what I have been doing the past 21 years.

In summary, what is being called “church” today is largely not the universal body of believers in Jesus Christ, but it is a conglomerate of institutions of human making which are incorporated (merged, joined, partnered) with the state (the government) and with the world. They are businesses of human origin which are being led by marketing goals and plans for how to “grow your churches,” i.e. businesses. And so they have altered the gospel and compromised with the world in order to attract the world to their gatherings.

The Church Under Fire

Chapter Two

Be Aware

May 26, 2023


Now I am going to relate this story to our lives and world and church today. For what was going on here was deceptive. It was trickery. It was a trap. For they wanted to kill Paul in order to shut him up, and possibly also in hopes that the movement he was leading would then disperse. It is kind of like what they did with Jesus, hoping that by killing him it would silence not only his voice, but that his followers would disperse and that they would not have to deal with them anymore.

But I want you to be aware that this kind of trickery is going on within the gatherings of the institutional market-driven churches of today, and it is being done by some pastors and other church leaders as a method of controlling people and situations to go the way they want them to go. And even many pastors are being trained in deception and trickery as a way to make things happen the way that suits their marketing goals and purposes.

And my husband and I were church planters twice, so we went through some of this training. And at one of our training sessions we were taught that we are to use (take advantage of) “needy people” in order to get our church plants up and running. But once our church plants were well on their way, we were instructed to get rid of the needy people, for they would weigh us down. Wow! The people in our tiny congregation were needy people. For we were ministering to the hurting, and the rejected, and the neglected.

Also my husband and I had a ministry to college students and to college-age adults out of our home for 7.5 years, from early 1999 to mid-2006. And there were times when we tried to connect this ministry to a local institutional church, because we thought that was the right thing to do. And so from 2002-2003 we partnered with a local IC (institutional church). We provided the college ministry for their congregation, and they provided us with a facility where we could meet. And at first it went well.

But Then…

I was doing some volunteer work at the church office one day when the pastor called me into his office to talk. He asked me, “Would you say that your praise band would draw in large crowds of people from the world?” I knew exactly where he was going with this, and I also knew that this was contrary to our partnership agreement. For we told him our goal in ministry, at that time, was to provide a place for young people where they could feel included, and where they could feel valued and needed and wanted.

What he said he wanted to do was to replace our band with another band, and he wanted me to talk about that with our ministry team. So, I did. And we decided to all meet with him, and we did. And when we met with him, I asked him to tell the group what he told me. But all he would say was, “I would never do that.” So I asked him, if he would never do that, then why did he ask me to ask our ministry team about doing that. But his answer remained, “I would never do that.”

So, what he was doing was a non-denial denial. He neither admitted to saying it nor did he deny saying it. He just said he would never do that. So, afterwards he and I talked more, but he still would not answer my question as to why he said what he did if he never intended to do that. And then their “Session” (of the Presbyterian Church) called me to a meeting. But they made it a prerequisite that I must admit I lied about the pastor before I could come to their meeting. But I didn’t lie. I am not the one who was being deceptive. And I had been totally submissive.

So I asked the Session if they would remove that requirement and they refused. So, I could not attend their meeting, because I would not lie. And so they put me on church discipline, which is totally against the Scriptures and the whole purpose for church discipline. But what they did, and a lawyer was one of the ones involved in this, would be like if someone accused you of a crime, but before they would give you a fair trial to determine guilt or innocence, you would be required to admit guilt. If you could (or would) not admit guilt, then to jail you went, no trial at all.

Do you see how absolutely evil what they did was? That lawyer knew better than that, and so did that pastor. I think the Session did not really know what was going on, in my opinion, but they were just acting on the word of the pastor and of the lawyer. But they had to know that what they were doing was wrong. For you don’t make someone admit guilt before you even give them a chance to be heard. That is criminal! But so many of these ICs are being taught to use deception and trickery in order to get people to do what they want them to do, and/or in order to get rid of the undesirables.

Bottom line, we pulled our ministry out of that IC, and we took it back to our home, which is where I believe the Lord wanted it to be anyway. And the reason the Lord is having me share this with you is so you will be aware of the kinds of trickery and deception and manipulations which are going on in many of these ICs which are market-driven and which are trying to draw in large crowds of people from the world. Since I was not on board with what they were up to, they found a way to silence me. But they lost access to our ministry to college students as a result. So, keep your eyes and ears open.

P.S. January 29, 2025: This (above) took place 22 years ago. Recently I had the occasion to ask this same pastor if I came to his church if he would welcome me. At first he "beat around the bush," so I asked him again, and there was no response. So, the answer to me was "No!" I would not be welcome if I came to his church.

Link to the whole book:

The Church Under Fire Book (edited).pdf

Video Recording of the Above:

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The Church Under Fire Pt 2
An Original Work / November 4, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Anyone interested in Dilexi Te?

Valletta said:

​

Author: Father John Flynn, LC

A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH
Anti-Christian Censorship and New Media
Report Highlights Defects
By Father John Flynn, LC
ROME, 2 OCT. 2011 (ZENIT)
A report commissioned by the Virginia-based National Religious Broadcasters has revealed substantial problems in the way new media communications platforms treat religion.
Titled "True Liberty in a New Media Age: An Examination of the Threat of Anti-Christian Censorship and Other Viewpoint Discrimination on New Media Platforms," the report looked at many of the leading companies such as Google, Apple, Facebook and Twitter.
NRB is a non-partisan, international association of Christian communicators according to a description of its mission on its Web site.
While it is true that the new means of communications made possible by the Internet have opened up many possibilities for the exchange of ideas and opinions, at the same time the report expressed concern that a small number of large companies have a lot of control of this industry.
Anti-Christian Censorship and New Media | EWTN

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Interesting that you should bring this form of censorship up, which is a real problem that has been going on for a while, as the date of your article suggests. This would be a good time I suppose to take a look at a Vatican document on Internet Ethics, and related articles over the years regarding the Vatican and social media companies as those addressed above, in relation to censorship. Perhaps we will start tomorrow if time allows.

Thanks, thats a great list of resources.

I couldn't find Three Reformers : Luther, Calvin, Erasmus listed by Jacques Maritain though?? He has a book called Three Reformers, but its Luther, Descartes, Rousseau.

Also makes nice witnessing tools.

Yeah, I can picture Leslie Neilson acting out that scene lol.

They're still doing court appearances via zoom?

I know why courts were forced to do that via covid, but it seems like there's quite a few reasons why they'd want participants to actually be in the courtroom now.

Taking someone into custody for contempt, inappropriate decorum, or confessing to a crime in the courtroom is pretty much a non-option when it's conducted virtually.

Sometimes I have those thoughts, but I think if I stay, it forces the Overton window to not lean quite so badly.

Dikaioumenoi said:

Not entirely sure what you're meaning to say here. ἑλκύω denotes a decisive movement from one position to another. That is its semantic core. Whether the subject succeeds in the act is a question of the subject's ability, not the meaning of ἑλκύω, which is consistent with what you quoted.

Think again about the analogy I used: If I say "I am unable to lift a 1,000 pound boulder," my inability to do that doesn't define what "lift" means. "Lift" still means "to raise from the ground," not "to try to raise from the ground." One can try to lift (or ἑλκύω), and fail (e.g. John 21:6), but that does not change the definition of the word.

So you can say that the Father tries ἑλκύω but fails, if you really want to -- that's a meaningful use of the term -- but it doesn't mean what you might think it means. If the Father tries ἑλκύω but fails, that doesn't speak to the recipient's resistance of an offer; it speaks to the Father's failure to make it possible for them to even receive it. The opening clause of John 6:44 states that no one is able to come to Christ. The exception to that is if the Father draws (ἑλκύω) them. So what does the drawing of the Father do (if successful)? It moves them from the position of "unable" to "able." Thus, if you suggest that the Father can try ἑλκύω but fail, that means it is not even possible for the individual to come to Christ, because they have not been moved into that state of "able."

The point I was trying to make in response to fhansen is that this whole debate about the meaning of ἑλκύω is at best irrelevant, and at worst self-sabotaging for their view. Even if we were to accept "appeal/lure/woo" or something of the sort as a possible meaning for ἑλκύω, it can't be translated that way in John 6:44, because notice what the drawing modifies in the syntax of the verse: δύναται ("is able"). The Father's drawing in this context isn't merely an act of persuading people to come to Him; it is an act of making it possible for them to do so. That requires an understanding of the term that is decisive and effectual in its accomplishment, or we end up without any guarantee that salvation is possible.

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We don't argue against the fact that He makes it possible. We argue that our resistance can still thwart His purpose with it from actually happening. Your whole arguement to begin with was that the word, by itself, necessitates movement:

Dikaioumenoi said:

This is too soft a definition of ἑλκύω. The lexical range of ἑλκύω is primarily in the realm of "drag" or "haul" (see John 21:6, 11; Acts 16:19; James 2:6). It's a term that expresses decisive action resulting in movement, not gentle persuasion. Even when used metaphorically, as in John 6:44 and 12:32, the same strength of meaning carries through, because the drawing accomplishes its intent. In John 6:44, it accomplishes (at the very least) an enablement to believe; in John 12:32, it accomplishes the worldwide extension of the gospel's appeal. These efforts do not fail. They describe an effectual change of position -- from unable to able to believe (6:44), and from restricted to universal scope in gospel proclamation (12:32). That's the semantic force of ἑλκύω, "draw."

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NBB said:

The bible could mean not literal 6 days, maybe they were like times not days.
In any case God created everything but for me old earth could still be biblical, and makes more sense.
Things like, light of stars could have not reached us, if the world was 6000 years.
Those layers of 'mud' geologist investigate etc, that makes sense formed with a lot of time.

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The thing about starlight is that if it reached earth in the time earth ticked off 4 days, it could have taken millions or billions of relative years in that amount of time on earth.

On the mud layers, it doesn't make sense to me that millions of years were required to lay down layers on earth, especially when some fossils ("polystrate") transcend layers. Since there are such things, the long ages required for each layer makes little sense.

Dinosaur soft tissue is another topic that doesn't make sense with millions of years of the dinosaurs being buried and surviving as soft tissue.

None of that is on the topic of the biblicity of one or the other. But when the bible talks about "ancient" times, it seems to refer mostly to something within it's own timeline, and commensurate with 6000 or so years.

mark46 said:

Is it news that Trump lies whenever he talks about numbers, including the level of inflation?

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Well, since he shut down the department that reports songs of these numbers, maybe he's got plausible deniability?