NOT giving in to wrong desires requires knowing they are wrong desires and why. So now knowledge comes into play, not subjectively but objectively true information. And it's true that knowledge makes us more responsible in the sense we know better. But wouldn't it be better said that we make our own decisions to NOT DO what is wrong because we Love others? Wouldn't it be better to thank God for the brotherly love that causes us to act responsibly without deliberating <-- Here is where the will/way/want is not manifested by the ability to choose otherwise, but through brotherly Love <--God's Way.
Would you say one's conscience gives them subjective knowledge?
How does one gain objective knowledge?
First off, when Paul says Adam was not deceived, I don't think Paul is meaning to point out that Adam knew what he was doing because Adam knew God told him not to eat because he would surely die. I say that because Paul would have known that the woman also knew that too, because she said, "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die".
What we think isn't relevant.
Paul made a contrast between one person being deceived, and the other not.
That points out that one person - Adam - made a choice to do what was wrong, without being misled.
When someone is not misled into doing something wrong, but they do it, is it deliberate -
done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects; intentional, and willful -
done in a manner which was intended?
The choice to do what is wrong without being misled
Choosing to do what is wrong while fully aware of its moral implications—knowing it is wrong and still proceeding—is a deliberate act of moral failure. This choice is often described as a conscious violation of one's own ethical standards or principles, and it reflects a decision made despite knowing the correct course of action. In ethical frameworks, such a decision may be analyzed through the lens of consequences, rules, or character. For instance, someone might refrain from lying because they believe it leads to bad outcomes , or because they follow a rule that demands honesty , or because they identify as an honest person. Choosing to act wrongly in spite of these considerations indicates a prioritization of personal interest, emotion, or bias over moral duty.
The decision to do wrong is not merely a mistake or a lapse in judgment; it is a choice made with full knowledge of the right alternative. This awareness can intensify the moral weight of the action, as it involves a willful disregard for truth, fairness, or the well-being of others.
So some theologians tend to take it out of context and think Paul is saying Adam deliberately, willfully disobeyed of his own initiative (which is a different sentiment than Adam knew God told him not to eat or he would surely die), in other words they suggest that Paul is inferring rebellion by saying Adam was not deceived.
Can you provide a reference where some theologians take this out of context.
I have already shown how that mischaracterization of Paul's intended sentiments ends in a contradiction of reasoning. Here it is-> It would mean that Paul is saying that the woman, who was deceived/tricked into disobeying God, should follow the lead of the man who knowingly and deliberately rebelled against God. That would be like saying we should follow those leaders who knowingly and willfully rebel against God.
Tricked into disobeying God?
How was Eve tricked?
Deceived does not necessarily mean tricked.
For example,, one who deceives their own mind, does not trick their mind.
They just convince themselves of something they believe... or want to believe.
Deceiving one's own mind refers to the psychological process of self-deception, where an individual convinces themselves of a belief they know or believe to be false, often to avoid discomfort, maintain self-esteem, or rationalize behavior.
It wasn't like Eve didn't know what God told her. She knew.
When Satan said, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?” Insinuating that God was wickedly withholding something good from them.
Eve responded... “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
Satan's approach was deceptive... a cunning way to sow suspicion and doubt.
Eve believed the lie. She believed what was false, to be true. The Bible doesn't say she was tricked into believing.
A person can chew over doubts and fatten suspicion, by entertaining a thought.
However, it was Satan's intent to mislead her, so I am not going to make this a subject of argument, as it's "small potatoes" and would detract from the main point... which is, that Adam was not misled into believing the lie.
That's what it means to be deceived.
Deceive - To cause to believe what is not true; mislead
Given that the Genesis account does not depict the serpent talking to Adam, Paul is probably simply inferring that the woman was the one deceived by the serpent, not the man. It is remarkable that nowhere else in scripture that I know of, is it mentioned or implied that Adam was not deceived or not misled in some way by the woman and that he willfully rebelled against God.
Probably?
Remarkable? Why... because you think something you believe is
probably true?
On the other hand, it's possible that Adam knew what he was doing and was NOT deceived, because he could have wanted to die with Eve rather than live without her which would not mean he had a rebellious spirit against God.
Could have?
Let's be clear... If you think you are not speculating, please check the dictionary for the word
speculate.
Then let's end this conversation, if speculation is all you think we have to go on, because it's no use using the scriptures if nothing can be established from them.
It's possible he could have decided to die with Eve rather than live without her. Assuming he wouldn't choose to eat and die had she not eaten in the first place, the circumstances would qualify as an antecedent event, wherein he might have felt forced to volunteer to die with her,
Possible?
Assuming?
Might have?
Okay, moving on.
This is an adjective not a noun. It's talking about a voluntarily action i.e. "acting on one's own accord" I'm not saying such willful sinful actions can't occur like in
Hebrews 6:4-6 and
10:26. I would note that these scriptures are speaking more rhetorical, as warnings. I won't call such a will that wants to be ruled by sin a free will, because I want to show free as objectively positive in God's Way. The bible also shows actions that occur NOT of one's own accord. Primarily through believing things that are untrue and reasoning upon them as if they were true.
You just said
This is an adjective not a noun. It's talking about a voluntarily action i.e. "acting on one's own accord" I'm not saying such willful sinful actions can't occur
Then you, in the same breath, turn around and say
I won't call such a will that wants to be ruled by sin a free will
"Such a will" is a noun, which I don't see mentioned in
Hebrews 6:4-6
Unless you are referring to "sinning willfully" mentioned in Hebrews 10:26, which is describing having the ability to willingly sin or not - that is choosing of one's own accord, or one's own free will, either to refrain from practicing sin, or practicing sin... is actually free will.
It's not describing a will. It's not a noun. It's describing a voluntary action, which is exactly an adjective. Which is exactly what I started with.
The Greek word
hekousios - meaning free will, is the neuter of a derivative from
hekon; voluntariness -- willingly,
which is (an adjective, a primitive term) – properly, willing; "unforced, of one's own will, voluntary" (J. Thayer), i.e. acting on one's own accord. The root (hek-) emphasizes intentional, deliberate action (choice), i.e. "of free-will" (J. Thayer).
If a person can refrain from sinning willfully or give into sinning willfully - one or the other, that person has free will.
Why do you not accept that?