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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

I'm well aware of that. The point this exchange derived from was that homosexual experimentation causes psychological damage, and that's far from demonstrable.

Sexual orientation isn't a choice, as you've noted, and even if someone chooses to experiment with a different orientation, the likelihood is they'll find it doesn't work for them, and they'll eventually settle on the one that's right for them. There is no evidence that this kind of activity necessarily results in psychological damage. Perhaps it might in certain specific cases, due to other issues, but for the vast majority of people, they're attracted to who they're attracted to, and they can't make themselves attracted to someone they're not. Which, as I noted, is why conversion therapy doesn't work.

-- A2SG, and I personally believe that anyone who has an opinion about someone else's sexual orientation should keep it to themselves.....
I don’t disagree at all.
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The Biblical Basis of 10 Catholic Distinctives

The Baptists have already won this argument a long time ago by one simple trick: THEY REDEFINE THE HISTORICAL DEFINITION OF "HOUSEHOLD" from all those living under the same roof regardless of age to only adults unless the Biblical text says there are children present. Do not believe this.

So how do we interpret Scripture here? We ask the diagnostic question(s): 1) Do the words and grammar of Scripture determine theological content and belief? 2) Or does your theological belief determine what words should mean in Scripture?

Clearly and plainly, Baptists use interpretative principle #2 when defining the word "household" due to their anti-paedo beliefs. By fiat, Baptists just declare a household can not have children living in them UNLESS THE TEXT SAYS CHILDREN ARE PRESENT! Pure eisegesis but this interpretation emotionally satisfies the Baptist belief in credobaptism. This is interpretive cheating.

Household baptisms scripturally are born from Peter's words....this promise is to you and your children (Acts 2:39). Baptists seem to ignore this passage of Scripture. A household is basically everyone leaving under the same roof regardless of age. A Baptist interpret a household as everyone leaving under the same roof except those under the Age of Accountability. How bogus!

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of a household 1) those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family 2)a social unit composed of those living together in the same dwelling. And certainly the legal definition of a household: A household is composed of one or more people who occupy a housing unit. Tax filer + spouse + tax dependents = household. But of course the credo's discount this also.

The Scriptural definition of a household includes both children and servants .
  • I Tim 3:12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children (τέκνων) and his household (οἴκων) well.
  • I Tim 3:4 [A shepherd] must be one who manages his own household (οἴκου) well, keeping his children (τέκνα) under control with all dignity.
One passage of Scripture which gives the credos harsh criticism is I Tim. 5:8.
  • "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
  • Paul is clearly talking to believers here because only a believer can become worse than an unbeliever.
  • Is Paul saying here because children are not specifically mentioned in this passage, Christian parents are exempt from providing for their smallest and youngest children?
  • Nonsense. As is the same with credo's redefining words of Scripture to match their theological bias and a futile attempt to EXPLAIN AWAY paedobaptism altogether from Scripture.
Well? It did develop over time, but there is plenty of evidence of children being baptized as early as the 2nd century.

Baptism replaced circumcision, which was done on 8 day old male Jewish babies, but in this case, baptism is for ALL.

Baptism saves. It DOES something and is a means of grace. It’s ALWAYS been connected with the forgiveness of sins.

It’s not ONLY symbolic.
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JD Vance responds to Pope Leo's comments about immigration policy

It's hard to take a man surrounded by a giant stone wall seriously when he's asking us to open our borders. It's hard to take people who lock their house doors in gated, elitist communities seriously when they ask us to allow immigrants, illegal and otherwise, to flood our towns. Open borders brings sex trafficking, child abuse, murders, rapes, drug addiction and overdose deaths, a strain on resources (such as housing and medical), and countless other issues. I don't think the Pope's message was intentionally obtuse so much as it was not knowing the right way to serve all people in the best way possible. It's an impossibly difficult thing from a faith perspective, but a rather straightforward and easy thing politically (shut it down, figure out your own country).
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Pro's and con's of using AI in political debate.

I don’t really care what ai knows. I care what people think. That’s why I come to discussion boards. AI doesn’t have any better insight into your opinion than I can try to guess on my own.
Fair enough.

OCCASIONALLY, folks want something different than to know what others think. SOMETIMES, folks want information or analysis.

And yes, many of us like to point to references that show why we say something. I look to AI several times a day; to Google, ALEXA and my car's navigation system, as well as other places.
==================
OPTION ONE
I could choose not to post an AI analysis from Google that uses hundreds of sites before consolidating and giving an analysis.

OPTION TWO
I could choose only to refer folks to single sources.

OPTION THREE
I could choose only to give my own opinions without giving sources supporting my conclusions.
==========
Personally, I am capable of evaluating an analysis of a poster. Personally, I don't give much credence to I saw this one speaker or study on the internet as supporting evidence, unless I know the source. And yes, the consolidated conclusions are more likely to be better support than a single source.
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"Don't Give up the Ship"

Why would anyone expect the president to be as smart as the White House lawyers in crafting Executive Branch documentation?
I don't think an understanding of his positions limits and what kind of things constitute illegal orders is a high bar to set, if even a one. Just feels like you don't expect anything of him.
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Pentagon investigating Sen. Mark Kelly over 'refuse illegal orders' video

It's a case of "show politics"

Mark Kelly made his statement "for show", the administration is going to go after him "for show"

I don't expect anything significant to come of it.
Probably more likely that Kelly and the others made their statement in preparation for what they think is coming, which is future military operations--perhaps in Venezuela. Those Democrats made their statement about not having to follow "illegal orders". Then what do you think these same Democrats would once military operations got started? They'd be standing on the House and Senate floors crowing about how Trump is conducting an "illegal operation" using the military. They would keep saying things like that to go along with their previous assertion about how military members don't have obey illegal orders, thus encouraging mutiny within our own military. I don't doubt this is exactly what they want. It's not like they haven't stooped to such low levels before.
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Questions and Answers

I guess you won't agree, even when I point out the logical form of your reasoning, that you are saying works are necessary for salvation?
Of course I won't agree because I didn't say that and don't believe that.

Is Ephesians 2:8-10 not clear enough for you? Paul very clearly taught that we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works. Good works are what God prepares for us AFTER we are saved by grace through faith. Is there anything you don't understand about that? Is there anything I said there that would lead you to believe I'm saying works are necessary for salvation? If you think so, then your reading comprehension skills need a lot of work. If works were necessary for salvation, then the thief on the cross wasn't saved. Yet, he clearly was saved.
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Jesus never said anything, even after he rose from the dead, that the Law is now optional for any of them (Matthew 28:20).

So if obedience to the Law was required to enter the kingdom before the cross, it continue to be required after the cross.
You continue to just ignore the fact that scripture teaches that the old covenant law was made obsolete (was no longer in effect) by the blood of Christ, which also established the new covenant, as written in Hebrews 8-10. Nothing you say can change that.
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Nightmare caregiving situation/death issue

So my 93 year old grandmother is dying too. This woman is my dad's father, is an unbeliever, and she's not a nice lady to put it mildly. Wonder where my dad got his abusive behavior from?

My dad's going to have to bring her home to live with us because she needs 24/7 care and there's no way else for her to get it without paying an astronomical fortune of money. His siblings have all abandoned her because of how nasty she is. Only he will take care of her.

Meanwhile he's going to have to rely on his siblings to sell her house in Ohio and sell her things. One sibling has already tried to get more than his fair share of the inheritance. He is also an unbeliever.

I guess, pray for an alternative care situation to be found or that she dies, or whatever else you feel like praying for. You'll probably think of something more intelligent than me. I'm not sure how I'm going to survive both working a job and dodging her all of the time.

Corrie ten Boom: Restoration Through Forgiveness

That is wonderful to hear - what a special connection to Corrie ten Boom’s story. Her faithfulness in the midst of such trials continues to inspire so many of us. I love that you aspire to grow in faith as she did; her testimony reminds us that God’s grace can strengthen us to be faithful wherever He has placed us.
The house in Haarlem is left in its original state and is still a museum: Home | Corrie ten Boom House

Her testimony is humbling - I'm only underway and in a position of humility given past failures - but maybe that's exactly where Yeshua wants us to be.
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what did the Bible teach you about death?

It taught me not to fear death, that death is not the ending but will be a beginning of an eternity in paradise.

And that a gruesome end doesn't mean that God wasn't with us. God doesn't promise us a peaceful death in a hospital bed surrounded by loved ones, we could be eaten by a shark for all we know, or get into a bad car accident.

What happens if someone dies before they became a believer, is it their fault?

God's omnipotence, sovereignty and omnibenevolence can allow humans to make some autonomous free will choices out of a Love for humans which can allow them to become like God Himself with Godly type Love.
God is wise enough and powerful enough to be the first cause in the creation of a free will human, who can be the first cause to a very limited number of mental choices which do not negatively impact others.
You're the one limiting God's power to making only robotic type beings.
"Robotic" is a poor designator for the result of Creation's pervasive cause-and-effect.

If you can explain how God causes self-contradictory things to happen, be my guest. Don't just assert that it is so. We do not produce anything 'ex-nihilo'. Nothing happens in a void, expect by First Cause himself.
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Pray societies around world are guided by The Holy Spirit to sincerely debate what aspects of gene-editing human babies are Biblical or Unbiblical

Gracious Heavenly Father and Lord Jesus,
Lord, please protect these unborn children from procedures that could harm them, and help parents to walk in the light of truth.
In Christ's Name,
Amen
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Celebrate Thanksgiving with Thanksgiving Bible/Torah verses

Here's an idea for this coming Thursday's Thanksgiving time.

You're around the table, either for lunch or dinner. Your guests are there, and who knows what they will want to talk about. But YOU are the host. You get to pick the "table topic." When everyone has had their share of roast turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, mashed potatoes, and corn, before serving the dessert, have them read and share their take on "10 Bible verses" connected with "giving thanks." What do these verses tell you? How do you personally relate to these verses?

If you have 10 guests, each guest gets a verse. If there are 5 guests, each one gets 2 verses. Do the math, divide up the verses, and let that be the "Table Talk" before dessert.

1 Thessalonians 5:18; Psalm 100:4; Psalm 9:1; Psalm 7:17 1 Chronicles 16:34; Philippians 4:6; Colossians 3:15; 4:2; James 1:17;

2 Corinthians 4:15; 1 Corinthians 15:57

Midrash "Toldot" (generations) Gen 25:19-28;9 "Jacob and Esau"

PARASHAH: TOLDOT (generations) GEN 25:19-28:9


This study starts out with the generations of Abraham and Sarah. After years of waiting and praying, they finally had Yitzchak. The legacy continues, the promise of YHVH is revealed once more, but not without testing of faith. Yitzchak and Riv'kah also had to wait, about 20 years, yet they prayed and entreated the LORD to have a child. “The prayer of the righteous prevails.” The following is from the Talmud (B. Yevamot 64: a): “Why were our ancestors barren? Because the Holy One (blessed be He) longs to bless the prayers of the righteous.”

Since Yitzchak and Riv’kah (Isaac and Rebecca) were righteous, and part of the covenant promise, YHVH (in HIS timing) answered their prayer. Does that mean that ALL prayer is answered? Yes, it is, but not always the way we want Adonai to answer it. The answer comes in three forms: Yes, No, and “later on.” The sick are prayed over, and many are healed; others are prayed for, and YHVH takes them home. It doesn't mean to stop praying or pray once; God likes “continuous prayer.” The birth of Jacob and Esau came as a surprise, “twins inside,” and the battle ensued. Yet the LORD speaks to Riv'kah, saying:

“Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people will be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger.”

When we look at this today, we see prophecy revealed plainly as day. From “Ya'akov”(Jacob), we get “Am Yisrael (The Nation of Israel) and from “Esav” we get the name “Edom” which is almost the same as “Adam” except for the “o” or in Hebrew the letter “Vav” (v) If we look at the paleo-Hebrew, one could get the symbolism of “Esau” who was made of “Blood and spirit” was connected (Vav) to “chaos” Esav was a “man of the earth, disinterested in spiritual things, he was materialistic, he related more to the “red” earth than the things of God. From “Esav/Edom” we get Haman (the Agagite), and from Haman, the nation of “Rome” came into being. All nations hated Rome, as Rome was a conquering empire and took control of many lands. Many nations hate Israel, as Israel is the "anointed" of God, and the recipient of HIS blessings. (jealousy?)

Israel was under the yoke of Rome, YET today, we look at Israel, it has the strongest and one of the most advanced and modern Military in the world. And it was indeed an honor to serve under the IDF ten years ago, and I would gladly do it again.

Jacob and Esau, twin brothers, but two separate nations, two brothers, yet worlds apart, one spiritual, interested in the things of God, the other, interested in the things of the world. Esau and Jacob represent the world of today. We have the “lost” “unrepentant man,” and we have the “born again believers,” which include ALL who have accepted Yeshua the Messiah as LORD and Savior, doesn't matter if we are a Sabbath observing messianic believer, or a Sunday church going believer, we are ALL part of God's family.

Yet we see that Jacob exhibited “carnal behavior” he wanted things “his way” yet when God sent Jacob to uncle Laban's “school of hard Knocks” he came out different... (but that is in the next Torah/Bible study). Jacob symbolizes “all believers,” both carnal and spirit-filled. We ALL have growing and maturing to go through on this side of heaven.

I would like to examine three names: Adam, Esau, and Jacob/Israel. How are we like these names? Adam and Edom are spelled almost the same. Adam was the first man made in the “image of Elohim.” he was made from the earth, “Edom means “red” perhaps the earth with which Elohim made Adam was a reddish color. Esau was a carnal man, and gave in to his hunger and ate of Jacob’s “red” lentil stew. Adam was made perfect in all ways, yet sin broke fellowship between him and God, thus, sin was passed down to all generations. Esau and Jacob, one could say were like “twins”. Yet one sought after spiritual things and the other, after carnal things. Jacob and Esau symbolize the spiritual man and carnal man, yet we can decide which “man” we want to follow and emulate

Esau despised his birthright for lentil stew. We can see the same today, many people will prefer a life of sin, money, fast cars, drugs, fame, you name it, and reject the gift of God, “Salvation” (YESHUAH), and then “perish” for all eternity. That's kind of like “exchanging” Eternal life with God for a “temporary life” of comfort and ease, riches, etc. Just doesn't make sense, does it?

We can also see this in believers. In believers, we have the “Esau” nature and the “Jacob” nature. The “Esau” nature is our carnal sin nature, which responds to the flesh, but the “Jacob” nature is our “spirit-filled” nature, which is attracted to the things of the spirit, the things of God. It is our choice which “nature” governs our lives.

The time of blessing comes, Isaac is old and blind, and there has been a family “division.” Isaac loved” Esau (because of his wild game) yet Rebecca “loved” Jacob. Does that mean that Isaac didn't love Jacob and Rebecca didn't love Esau? No, only means that there were “family favorites” which is a big NO, if we are to live in peace with our children today, even between “students and teachers” no favorites, please!

We see in Chapter 27 that Jacob passes for Esau, and Esau gets the shorter end of the stick. Taking advantage of poor Isaac's blindness, yet there is a saying “The chickens come home to roost” and “What goes around, comes around.” We will see LATER what happens, Jacob is the younger, and pretends to be the older. When Jacob gets married, he thinks he's getting the younger daughter, but gets the older daughter. Jacob deceives Isaac in his “darkness” (blindness), and Jacob gets deceived, being in the “darkness” (night time, dark tent), and maybe he had too much to drink to know who got in bed with him.

Esau doesn't change; he marries a “Hittite” woman and then gets another wife from his uncle Ishmael, all to “get back” (maybe) at Isaac for giving away his birthright, but didn't he already sell it? Hello?

So, the question is: “Jacob or Esau,” who do we resemble most? It might be a thought-provoking question, but it is a question we must ask ourselves. We may be born-again believers, yet if our thoughts are earthly, and God’s Word doesn’t fill our minds daily. If our daily life is more carnal than spirit-filled, and our words are less than kosher, then we would have to be honest with ourselves and say, “We are Esau!” Yet it doesn’t have to be that way.

If we say, “I take after Jacob!” then does God’s Word, his Spirit, guide us? Remember that his name was changed to “Israel” (Yashar-El), “Straight to God.” Do our thoughts go “straight to God?” Are we living our own lives, or are we living the “God-in-us” lives? Is it really our life or God’s life that is within us?

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