How does it confirm what you are saying?
Did you not say "If God made the Earth, and then He made something else that He called "Earth", that's confusing"?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the what you called mud is the same earth that God created at Genesis 1:1.
When that "mud" rose above the surface of the water, it was the same earth that is taking form - mountains, valleys, etc.
It's like having clay in your hand and shaping it into something. It's still clay.
Am I misunderstanding what you think Gen 1:1 is calling "earth"? Are you saying it is the same thing that later became the dry ground? Most people think that it refers to the whole planet we call "Earth" in Vs 1.
God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of the waters He called “seas” Genesis 1:10
The dry land always existed, but because it was covered with water, it was wet. When it pushed up above the water's surface, it dried,
God called it earth.
The same earth that existed at the beginning.
I think that's not clear from the scripture, though it is a possible interpretation. Would you say the same thing about "Heaven"? IOW, did "Heaven" exist within the water? If not, then what is Vs 1 talking about when it says "Heaven"?
Is that what you said?
Correct.
Wait a minute! Are you saying there were other objects besides earth. What other objects existed?
Is light an object? If not light, then are you asking about other spheres, such as the sun, moon, stars or something like them that came before? All I get from the scripture at that point is that light existed. If I compare that with modern physics, specifically the big bang theory (BBT), there was a period of time called the photon epoch which might correspond to what God did to create light, before there were other (large) objects, although there was something that preceded the light called "waters" and "the deep". In BBT, there is something that precedes the light also. I'm looking at
Big Bang Timeline- The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe while writing. It talks about a "photon epoch"
No. The reason God said let there be light, was because the earth was shrouded in darkness.
Genesis 1:2-5
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep
There was no light for God to separate.
Only after light reached the earth, did God call the light "day", and the darkness "night".
Which is a supposition. Maybe true, maybe not. It requires your view to be true, but other views can still be valid without tossing the verse aside. Such as that the light was made to appear without any mist or atmospheric blockage.
Light from the sun penetrated the dissipating ash and debris that is hanging above earth's atmosphere.
The light is called Day, and the darkness is called Night... Obviously we have night and day on earth.
We don't ignore context, is true, but neither do we ignore chronology.
Also true.
For example, we do not ignore a statement, run further down, form an idea, then arrange the reading to suit our idea.
I don't think it is wrong to apply the whole chapter's context in our understanding of the first few verses.
There is chronological order, in the reading of Genesis Chapter one.
It begins with... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
That might not be the first event in the chronology. It might instead be an introduction to the chronology, just as Gen 2:1 is not another creation of heaven and earth, and cannot be considered part of the chronology, but just a summation (a short repeat) of the previous contents.
Your claim however, is this:
You made two claims.
- Light was made first, before there was "Earth", and before there was "Heaven(s)"
Yes
- I'm trying to read the passage for what it is trying to say, without putting my own ideas
Yes
However, both these claims do not prove to be true, because you just quoted Genesis 1:1, which says very clearly " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
How long did "the beginning" last" And when were "earth" and "heaven" created? I think I'm still within the window of the 6 days.
If you are "trying to read the passage for what it is trying to say, without putting my own ideas", then you must accept that the heavens and earth existed, first.
Not if the text said that they began to exist only after light.
The only way you can dismiss that, is by "putting my own ideas", which is to claim that earth in Genesis 1:1 is not earth,
Or, as stated before, that it was an introductory statement about the narrative that followed.
but like the other poster here is saying, it's not talking about an already created earth.
So, which is it you want me to go with?
Are you saying that the contexts of "the heavens" never relate to the things in the heavens?
Surely "the heavens" didn't mean "and everything the heavens will contain later on" when it was first defined. Are you saying the "the heavens" existed before "the heavens" were created??
Great!
Do you accept that heavens, in some contexts in scripture, do refer to all the things in the heavens combined?
Yes, at least sometimes. But when the narrative says the heavens were created by separating water above from water below, i don't understand how they existed prior to that.
What thing holds the earth water and sky and space?
Can you repeat that in different words?
Could you answer the other questions, please.
What is space, and how did that blackness impress David?
Psalm 8:3
Space is where God placed the stars, planets, galaxies, etc. David was looking at stars in the heavens
When you read the phrase such as mentioned at
Isaiah 57:16 and
Jeremiah 32:19, since you do not just see empty space and mud, what do you see?
[Isa 57:16 NKJV] For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls [which] I have made. --I don't see how this relates to our discussion.
[Jer 32:19 NKJV] '[You are] great in counsel and mighty in work, for Your eyes [are] open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings. --nor this.
Please elaborate. I'm missing your point.
I'll repeat the verses again:
[
Gen 1:1 KJV] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[
Gen 2:1 KJV] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
The last one is not part of the narrative telling how and in what order God created, yet it is part of the section of scripture containing that narrative. That sentence could be termed a summation of what came before.
The first verse is similar--it isn't part of how and when God created, but is a statement of what the text that follows contains...an introduction, we would call it if writing an english paper. Or perhaps a title. Maybe you didn't understand what I was getting at with the story about making a lamp. I started with a statement about what I was about to describe the creation of (a lamp). The initial statement was not part of the story about how I was making a lamp, it was an introduction to the story about how I was making a lamp.
The assumption that the earth exists before the narrative says the earth exists makes the definition of "earth" confusing, because it is not what the verses define it. The verses of the text define "earth" as "dry land", not a planet where you can only see water. Therefore, if water is all you can see in Vs 2, it must not be the same thing as "earth" as
defined in Gen 1:10. If Heaven is vs 1 is not something that came to exist only after the waters were separated from the waters, then there must be 2 things, in your view, that "Heaven" refers to. One in vs 1 and another in vs 8 and following. Whereas, if the introduction is telling us what the narrative is about, rather than being part of the narrative, we soon see the objects/foci of the narrative come into being in Gen 1:6-10.
Did you read
Genesis 1:1,
9,
14,
15,
17,
20?
What is the expanse?
What is the expanse of the heavens?
I think they are the same thing--Space, extending down to the surface of the earth (dirt). The "face of the expanse" (still part of the expanse) is the sky where birds fly. "The Heavens" is the name God gave the expanse (firmament).
True. I'm interested in what you Derf, get from it.
Therefore, it does not refer to space, where the heavenly hosts... that is planets and stars would exist?
It does. But remember that the statement begins the narrative in which the heavens and the earth are
created. It explains what the words mean as the things the words refer to come into being. If dry land existed prior to dry land existing, then the story of creation is confusing, don't you think? Remember that the narrative defines the words it uses for these things. If you then define them a different way, you need to explain where your definitions come from, and why they don't match the definitions in the narrative.
Ah. I see. So, you believe there is no space above the firmament. That's all a myth in science.
Isn't it? Or do scientists actually know what is outside the universe??
Can yo please point out where, or which layer the sun, moon, and stars reside in this diagram?
None of them. Can you tell me where the waters above the expanse reside?
Also, are you saying there is no space (heavens) above, which God created?
No. But when God made the firmament (expanse) there were a couple parts to it in the narrative. There is the firmament where stars and galaxies are, and there is the "face of the firmament", which is where birds fly.
[Gen 1:20 NKJV] Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."