Hey bling
I'm not sure what your point of contention is here. Elaborate on it if you have one. Right now I'm only guessing. Yes, all those verses say water baptism. Do you agree that Jesus did and still does baptize with the Holy Spirit in response to a genuine faith, which "places us" in Him, a spiritual "immersion" that makes us one with Him, the Body, the true Church? You'll notice that anything that I wrote that is between "quotation marks" are used in place of the word baptism, because they mean the same thing. Example....
This takes some explanation.
I see in scripture several different “portions” of the Holy Spirit. John talks about Jesus coming
Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Baptism of fire is what?
Luke 12: 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!
“Baptism of fire” seems to refer to the severe persecution which lots of Christians get to endure, but not every individual Christians will go through a baptism of fire, so will all Christians go through a baptism of the Holy Spirit John is referring to?
Numbers 11: 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will
take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and
put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone.
There are tons of scripture referring to the Holy Spirit, like in Numbers 11 the Spirit can be portioned out.
John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and
will be in you.
John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Jesus could breathe on the disciples and they received some portion of the Spirit, but the indwelling portion which is always with them (yet can be quenched) had not yet come.
Acts 8: 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 8 seems to be saying the Samaritans were immersed water baptized, but had not received the outwardly visible miraculous powers of the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them, so water baptism was around separate from Holy Spirit baptism. This is also seen in Acts 19: 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Acts 19:6 is not a continuation of Acts 19:5 with some translators putting an period or a conjunction between them showing separation. Acts 19:6 is no a description of the baptism, but you might want further study on this.
Acts 10: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues
and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Acts 11: 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
Peter is water Baptizing and the Spirit seems to be Spiritually baptizing these gentiles first. Notice Peter has to go back to Pentecost to get a similar “Baptism of the Spirit” example so it was not regularly happening.
A book could be written on Christian water baptism and the Holy Spirit baptism, which seem to be two different actions.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Christian water baptism included the Spirit as Paul points out in Acts 19: 1-7. As shown in Acts 8 there was definitely Christian water baptism and only with the apostles laying on of their hands was Holy Spirit baptism given.
My translation: For by one Spirit we were all "placed into" into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
another....
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Not everyone receives a baptism of fire or the Holy Spirit, but all true believers do receive the much more important indwelling Holy Spirit.
Are you seeing obvious miraculous Holy Spirit miracles being performed today that can be scientifically verified (something the Baptism of the Holy Spirit produced in the first century)?
My interpretation: I indeed "immerse" you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will "immerse" you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Sorry, it sounded to me like you're playing both sides of the fence. So many today are wrongly taught that water baptism is what initiates the Spiritual baptism. If you're being water baptized, you already have faith, and are already spiritually baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit before you hit that water. Agree?
I do not limit God/Spirit’s actions, so when a person obtains the power of the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit is up to Deity and does not have to precede water baptism.
Sorry bling, I disagree. I believe that the water represents God's judgment. That's what the flood was. "In Christ", our Arc, we are protected from that Judgment just like Noah and family were. It's a perfect picture of our Spirit baptism. Not the removal of filth from the flesh is just like saying not water baptism. Just so there was no misunderstanding.
Where the Samaritans in Acts 8, Christian water baptized without being given any miraculous Holy Spirit powers?
Hey bling, the circumcision's comment was just a point of possible interest that I threw in there.
OT water baptism was simply identifying with a persons teachings publicly. That's all it is. A public testimony. That idea carried over to the NT. It pictured outwardly what had already happened inwardly as a result of faith. It identified us with Christ Jesus publicly. Some were baptized only into the name of Jesus because the Holy Spirit and the Father were already understood to be a part of them. The point of contention with the public testimony of these OT believers would have been the name Jesus. Others, found it better to publicly identify with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, since they were never believers in the OT.
OT believers were baptized into the name of the teacher they were under. Remember Paul confronting the Corinthians for arguing about being baptized by Paul or Apollos? It all came from that. The one true baptism is the one BY Jesus with the Holy Spirit. It's a spiritual baptism initiated by faith. Water baptism comes after that fact as a public testimony. Paul even finished by saying that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel". That would be a very, very odd thing to say if water baptism had anything to do with anything beyond a public testimony.
1 Corinthians 1:12-17 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
bling, I've seen this with Catholicism before, they are not really doing what they are doing, and not really saying what they are saying. You're language just sounded very familiar to the kind of language that they so often use, hence the "playing both sides of the fence" comment. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Dave
David, you are misunderstanding.
Paul did not want the people he converted and/or physically baptized by him, to boastfully say “I am a Paul follower.”
Paul did not want to physically baptize anyone for the same reasons Jesus did not baptize others.
Was Jesus physically water baptized as an example for us?
Jesus commands His disciples: “19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. We are to baptize them, but if the Holy Spirit is actually baptizing them, how can we follow that command?
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