And what are these people doing in his room?

Hey aren’t you forgetting something



And who is this guy sitting in his chair?

BCP1928 said:

Because maybe some people believe that there are more important things going on, more important issues for Christians to concern themselves with than trying to regulate the sex lives of the non-Christian citizens of a secular republic.

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All I said was that I would not vote for them - that isn't regulating anything other than my personal vote.

mark46 said:

I well understand why we Christians are opposed to abortion and homosexuality. Why should this me be a person who hates the sinner?
And some have come far from the medieval and Puritan idea of loving someone by burning them at the stake.

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All I said was that I would not vote for them - and why.

rjs330 said:

If you pay attention to my posts I really don't do that. I will respond if someone else starts the conversation, but I don't use it myself as a starter. I have said many many timea that we shouldn't use scripture as a political document for our personal political belief on how government has to be run or what laws should be made. The reason for that is because we have a tendency only to want to use part of scripture for political reasons and reject other scriptures for the same reason.

We should either accept all of scripture as the guide or none of it.

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That is your opinion about Scripture and you are welcome to it. Other Christians' mileage may vary. They have opinions, too, just as good as yours.

"Sound financial plan" means investing on winners.

Social justice also means investing on the losers.

Investing on the poor means you're not getting your money back. Giving without expecting anything in return. A total loss. Not just someone who is poor but also someone who have very little potential like someone who isn't smart. A losing investment.

Many Christians just can't wrap their head around such thing. Perhaps comfort, prestige, and the power to buy and sell is far too addictive to let go.

rjs330 said:

It's no a matter of deserving. Its a matter of wisdom. Perhaps the person needs financial counseling instead of just giving them money. Maybe they need someone to help them find a job as well as getting some money. Maybe they can get some money from us and supply some themselves. There is a lot that goes into it.

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That doesn't answer the question. If you disagree with the deacons about what to do with the money, do you withhold your contribution?

5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. b 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

I think it’s clear from the writings of Paul that the Sabbath, the day on which God rested from all his work (”It is finished”), is the life in Christ that we receive, so that we no longer live for ourselves.

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

11So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

T

Belk said:

Did he give a specific definition of Christian or name you as the arbiter? If not then this is irrelevant to the fallacy.

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Those who love me keep my commandments, and you will know them by their fruit

RamiC said:

Man's" systems are surely "man's" regardless of country, religion or culture? The "outside influence" you are reffering to is also from "man".

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And man is notorious for self-interest.

BPPLEE said:

Jesus pointed out that there would be people who claim to be his followers who are not.
He said that many would say they prophesied in his name and cast out demons in his name and he would say depart from me, I never knew you.
He also said those who love me keep my commandments.
Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing

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Did he give a specific definition of Christian or name you as the arbiter? If not then this is irrelevant to the fallacy.

Always in His Presence said:

Neither political party is a turly 'religious' or Christian in nature - they are not designed to be and this is not a Christian Nation -

But it will be a cold day on the surface of the sun before I could vote for a party who supports the murder of the unborn and acceptance of perversions.

From a strictly Christian perspective.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

​

How someone can claim to be a Christian, yet endorse and support what is abhorrent to Him is beyond me. ou cannot serve two masters.

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Because maybe some people believe that there are more important things going on, more important issues for Christians to concern themselves with than trying to regulate the sex lives of the non-Christian citizens of a secular republic.

Belk said:

It's amazing how you point out the case in which it is not a fallacy, then fall into the fallacy.

If someone says "No true pacifist can advocate for war." that would be a true statement since it is a direct contradiction. There is no definition of Christian that stays they are "someone who does not commit atrocities". That is an extra category you are adding to the definition which is what the fallacy entails. Supplementing the definition with your opinion.

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Jesus pointed out that there would be people who claim to be his followers who are not.
He said that many would say they prophesied in his name and cast out demons in his name and he would say depart from me, I never knew you.
He also said those who love me keep my commandments.
Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing

timothyu said:

Understood. But consider that the monarchy heading that church can be eliminated by democratic means through parliament, removing any edge it may have at present. And parliament can be controlled by the majority, regardless of which religion or culture they may represent. The old assumption that the founders of nations will continue to control, is out the window simply because a pre-Babel like occurrence is happening again.

Consider the US of A as an example. Over 60+ years ago there was a surge of Muslims there by way of the black movement. Yet this was not disrupting as these converts still were part of the fabric of the nation that they grew up in. They were home grown. Not so today as outside influence has brought their old ways, refusing to leave them back at home where they came from. And the system is being used by crying persecution in order to gain a foot hold. Man's systems only work when unthreatened by outside influence. We've taken a serious step backwards thanks to the utopian idea of living as one. Ain't gonna happen. Ask the American Indians. God scattered the people into nations for a reason.

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I too see from that angle concerning Babel, though for the risk of being seen as insane, I keep it to myself.

But I steer clear of politics, it would be like walking into a minefield.

Abraham was the most generous person to ever walk the face of the earth, if anyone is a child of Abraham, then they will do as Abraham.

You know, the apple does not fall far from the tree.

Always in His Presence said:

Neither political party is a turly 'religious' or Christian in nature - they are not designed to be and this is not a Christian Nation -

But it will be a cold day on the surface of the sun before I could vote for a party who supports the murder of the unborn and acceptance of perversions.

From a strictly Christian perspective.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

​

How someone can claim to be a Christian, yet endorse and support what is abhorrent to Him is beyond me. ou cannot serve two masters.

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Some are very concerned about the sexual conduct of others as their top priority. This has been true for many centuries.

Others look to themselves and try to best do what Jesus would have done.
================
In looking to the bible, some focus on the rules and regulations of Romans. Others focus on the Sermon on the Mount.
========
I well understand why we Christians are opposed to abortion and homosexuality. Why should this me be a person who hates the sinner?
And some have come far from the medieval and Puritan idea of loving someone by burning them at the stake.

stevevw said:

Yes but its not in this material realm. Christians believe in Heaven right. Heaven is not this fallen material world. The new earth and bodies will not be the same as our current fallen physical bodies.

If we never get sick or die then that is a completely different realm, a spirtual or transcedent realm or whatever you want to call it. But its clearly not the same. And we know it through our consciousness of God and the afterlife. We give up our physical body to gain this heavenly body.

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But we will still have a body, not a conscious mind without a body.

stevevw said:

Actually to anyone who uses methological naturalism to defeat belief in God or other transcedent realities like the soul or afterlife. If they demand physical evidence and claim that this belief is false ontologically. Then yes they are declaring a belief and not science.

If you think this doesn't happen then just take a look at this forum lol. Or the old creation v evolution debate. It always comes down to "show me the physical evidence or its all false". Thus using one persons belief to beat down another persons belief.

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Atheism v. theism is never the issue. Those discussions are about the Bible and creationists interpretation of it. Period. The evidence demanded is for the biblical account, not the existence of God.

stevevw said:

Its just that the materialist will always win within the parameters of objective sciences and materialism. Which is much easier to show than beliefs. Or at least using methological naturalism.

Actually I don't think a proper scientists would argue such things. They know where to draw the line. Its usually on forums like this where it becomes more philosophical that the lines get blurred.

I mean look at the OP heading "scientist believe life formed on its own" lol. Hum is belief scientific. I don't think so. So even the OP is framed philosophically. Scientist believe just like religious people believe in God. Except they believe its some how self creating and does not need a God or outside influence from an agent.

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That headline was created by a biblical creationist. It's a misrepresentation of science not written by a scientist. It is not what scientists believe.

stevevw said:

IMO I don't think we can seperate the scientist from the metaphysics. Because the subject and observer is part of the equation. You canpt take them out no matter what.

Science was designed to be a 3rd party method. Seperate the scientist from the phenomena being observed. But I don't think thats possible on a number of levels. So metaphysical beliefs come into the equation and its hard to untangle them. Or even know whether they are influeeencing things.

This is evident in the fact that even within the sciences there are different paradigms. Where one domain sees physical consitioning and processes. The other sees mind and agency as the fundemental driver. Nevermind the completely different paradigm worlds of spiritual/transcedent and materialism and determinism lol.

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I have no idea what you are talking about. It makes no sense either from a theological or a scientific point of view.

Always in His Presence said:

Neither political party is a turly 'religious' or Christian in nature - they are not designed to be and this is not a Christian Nation -

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Agreed.

We are to look to the teachings and actions of Jesus and decide how best to help the weakest among us:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

BCP1928 said:

How so? Or is that a right you reserve to yourself?

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If you pay attention to my posts I really don't do that. I will respond if someone else starts the conversation, but I don't use it myself as a starter. I have said many many timea that we shouldn't use scripture as a political document for our personal political belief on how government has to be run or what laws should be made. The reason for that is because we have a tendency only to want to use part of scripture for political reasons and reject other scriptures for the same reason.

We should either accept all of scripture as the guide or none of it.

15“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in d Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

RamiC said:

As I have pointed out already, Christianity is now a minority thing here, and while it is not up to much at the present time, we have an established church in the UK. We never did the "separation of powers". Sharia courts are not taking over, they have always been legal, but are not legally binding.

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Understood. But consider that the monarchy heading that church can be eliminated by democratic means through parliament, removing any edge it may have at present. And parliament can be controlled by the majority, regardless of which religion or culture they may represent. The old assumption that the founders of nations will continue to control, is out the window simply because a pre-Babel like occurrence is happening again.

Consider the US of A as an example. Over 60+ years ago there was a surge of Muslims there by way of the black movement. Yet this was not disrupting as these converts still were part of the fabric of the nation that they grew up in. They were home grown. Not so today as outside influence has brought their old ways, refusing to leave them back at home where they came from. And the system is being used by crying persecution in order to gain a foot hold. Man's systems only work when unthreatened by outside influence. We've taken a serious step backwards thanks to the utopian idea of living as one. Ain't gonna happen. Ask the American Indians. God scattered the people into nations for a reason.

Factotum said:

This was all strategic by the Trump DOJ, in order to beat the statute of limitations deadline on charging Comey. Kalligan beat it by 36 hours I heard.
Now that Kalligan is disqualified, the Court gives them several weeks to replace her and reinstate the charges.

It was very clever, by Bondi.

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Yes, that must be why all those professional lawyers are praising this 300d chess move by the Trump DOJ instead of pointing out how it is the result of extreme incompetence.



/s

And now, for your enjoyment, an xkcd cartoon: