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eclipsenow · 2025-11-13T19:11:13-0600

contratodo said:
And he will open his mouth in blaspheme against God, to blaspheme God's name, and His tabernacle (God's tabernacle is outside of the sky) and them that dwell in heaven (outside of the sky)
Revelation 13:6. Is telling us that the beast will speak blaspheme about what is outside of the sky.

He cast down some of the host of the stars and trampled on them....
He cast down the truth to the ground.
Daniel 8:10,12

Prophetically we therefore see truth related to the stars being cast down.

You appear to be reading apocalyptic symbols that are laid in with theological importance as geographies. In other words, as having a postcode. You cannot possibly read this book until you can speak the language. Just as one must learn ancient Greek in inner theological school, to understand revelation one has to understand how the ancient world used these apocalyptic symbols, which requires reading some of the other apocalyptic symbolism of the time. Or you could just wrote Dr Paul Barnett.

eclipsenow · 2025-11-13T19:06:01-0600

contratodo said:
And there are seven kings, five are fallen and one is, and one is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short while. And the beast that was and is not even he is the eighth and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. Revelation 17:10-11

In your view who are those five kings, and who is the one that was at the time of the writing of Revelation?

Did you know that five popes had come and gone, not including Peter, by the time John was writing Revelation?

When did Jesus ascend and sit at the right hand of the Father? Acts 1:9-11, Revelation 5:5 says Jesus prevailed to open the scroll that is at the right hand of the Father. Therefore the opening of the scroll began at that time when Jesus ascended and sat down, that is why the Bible is telling us He is at the right hand, connecting Hebrews 12:2 with Revelation 5 beautifully.

He opened the first seal around 30 ~ 50 ad. And what happened? Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad. Then again in 1090 it was surrounded by enemies and occupied, and again, and again, the ai will let you know that Jerusalem has been captured at least 41 times since Christ. Daniel tells us it would happen 70 times, "70 captivities are determined upon thy people......" Captivities, not weeks. "And after seven captivities and 62 weeks shall Messiah suffer the death penalty but not for Himself.". Daniel 9:1-2,24,26 plainly 490 years and 62 weeks. Some scribe took liberty and changed it all to weeks, but the context makes clear it is about captivity, Daniel was told that the captivity he was in would happen seventy times.

In 1948, May 15th 1948, armies once again surrounded Jerusalem, this time with tanks and such. Until 1967 half of Jerusalem was desolated and uninhabited. Then began a military 'defense' ( to be blunt it is a captivity, a military occupation, all the sincere in Israel have been in captivity since 1967, checkpoints at crossroads being one of the main agents of it ) that continues to this day, 2037 will mark 70 years.

And the office of the Pope is still with us, it was here during the writing of Revelation, laws that the popes have made are still in place today, January, Sunday, that we call the year 2000 is if the popes as well.

I tell you plainly dear one, for the times are upon us, one day a person in that office will seam to die, and then..... An alien mother ship will come beam him up, it will be big world wide news. The ship may linger for a while or what have you, and then... It beams him back down, alive! Ohhh ahhh, all the world will marvel, whose names are not in the book of life, when they see him. Half his face cyborg, ( the blinded by science card ) and speaking much about what is outside of the sky, supposed beings from other planets, humanoid aliens. Wow everyone will say, 'finally the Bible is explained, it's all about beings on other planets...' But dear one, it's all a grand deception, just as the Bible says Revelation 13:6

As we examine Scripture carefully and note what has happened as is happening, it is clear that Revelation is ongoing, it started when Christ ascended and will end when He returns.

Yeah - 1948.
Right.
Nothing to do with OT prophecies at all.

Try the book "Apocalypse now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett.

Here's a PhD in history and degrees in theology and a lifetime of work in both fields. It's a simple and short and brilliant commentary that also functions as a personal devotional reading if put to that purpose.

sjastro · 2025-11-13T19:02:23-0600

stevevw said:
Listen to all these experts who themselves provide no peer review. Talk about Woo. Double standards and bias proving my point that this was a lynch job from the start.

This whole thread has been turned into one big logical fallacy of ad hominems one after the other lol.

Don't let hypocrisy get in the way, referring to me as some random individual on a social media site not fit to challenge your so called experts is ad hominem attack.
The problem is your gross ignorance in failing to comprehend your so called experts are not experts at all if flaws can be found by random individuals as myself.
Your idiotic obsession with moulded limestone concrete casing stones was suggested by me being refuted with a simple high school chemistry HCl drop test described in post #1184. When taken further by the true experts in their fields of petrology, palaeontology and archaeology the use of moulded casing stones is beyond doubt complete utter nonsense.

On the subject of softening granite why did the builders of Menkaure's pyramid who was the fifth pharaoh of the 4th dynasty start off with the first 16 courses with granite casing stones but complete the remaining courses in Tura limestone resulting in 25% granite and 75% limestone casing stones?

granite-casing-blocks-menkaure-s-pyramid-back-pyramid-pyramid-menkaure-smallest-three-main-pyramids-365208208.jpg

The answer is ridiculously simple, there was no granite softening technology as using dressed granite casing stones was extremely time consuming to make using abrasion cutting, pounding and smoothing. The evidence suggests Menkaure died before his pyramid and mortuary temple were completed resulting in the builders finishing the pyramid with softer limestone.

Hentenza · 2025-11-13T18:57:13-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
Something to consider about Jesus

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Jesus is God. Jesus is the One who created heaven and earth- Exo20:11. Jesus is the One speaking at Mt Sinai. Jesus is the One who told us how to keep the Sabbath.

Jesus never became the Sabbath, or became Lord of the Sabbath He IS Lord of the Sabbath, and has always been -He has given it as a blessing for all mankind starting at Creation Mark2:27 Exo20:8-11. Resting with God on His Sabbath and Holy Day.

In my opinion, I do not think we should speak for God on something He took ownership of, that is His and He created and tells us why. He also tells us He does not change.

This is what the Lord said about the Sabbath

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

The Sabbath is something man does, not just something God does, so we therefore can disregard His clear instruction of how we are to keep the Sabbath. Jesus said Mark 3:4 Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent

Jesus never got rid of His law, He said so plainly in Isa 42:21 Mat5:17-30 and we can still do evil on the Sabbath by defiling it.

He told us clearly what man should be doing on the Sabbath. This is written by God Himself- I know of know one greater than He- why Jesus said plainly not a jot or tittle can pass from His law because He is owner of it, not us.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

Jesus said this:

Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am [a]gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Which this is what He was referring to, rest from our sins,

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.

Jesus who is Lord of the Sabbath said come to Me and I will give you rest and still kept the Sabbath going to church reading the Word of God Luke4:16 as did His disciples Jew, Gentiles and almost the whole cities, just as He predicted Isa56:6-7 Acts 13:42, 44, Acts18:4

The rest we enter into Christ no one is in rebellion to Him or His commandments (Rom8:7-8) including the 4th commandment. What Hebrews is warning about why those who in their trial of the wilderness did not enter His rest, because they liked their sins more than their love for Jesus to come to Him, do His will and turn (repent) forsaking their sins Pro28:13

Heb4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter (why did they not enter?) because of disobedience,

What were they disobedient of in the trial of the wilderness?

Eze20: 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands,16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.

The Sabbath is connected to the very first commandment (and is the Power behind all of them) - to thou shalt not have other gods before Me, the Sabbath commandment tells us which God that is, the God of all heaven and earth and everything in it. Exo20:11 Why the Ten Commandments are all interconnected breaking one we break them all- James2:11

Heb4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

I believe God means what He says about keeping the Sabbath day holy. He never treated this commandment any different than the other commandments, they are all written by God, all under His mercy seat, not a jot or tittle can pass, we cannot edit God's own Testimony written by God Himself Exo31:18 God warned us His times and laws would be changed, which is the Sabbath and we see a clear history of this change being made and those who claimed to change the Sabbath centuries ago, said they did so based on their own sense of power over the word of God. The end time battle comes over our worship which is who we obey. Rom6:16 Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 Rev14:11-12

Jesus never gave Himself a commandment, the commandments are for us to keep, the Sabbath is something man does. Those who enter His rest Also ceased from their works as God did, on the seventh day. Heb4:10 Heb4:4 Exo20:11

If we stick with the Bible and what God says, He will lead us on the narrow path back to Him. Jesus said many would come to deceive us before He returns. If we live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat4:4 and abide in Him, He will safeguard us. Pro3:5-6 Pro30:5-6

One of the last verses in the Bible before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city

The same c&p with the same verses that have been refuted over and over. Jesus is indeed God. Jesus did indeed create everything. Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus is perfectly capable and powerful to complete one covenant and give us another. He is perfectly capable and powerful to fulfill the law including the 10 commandments. He is perfectly capable and powerful to fulfill the 4th commandment on Himself ( not the Strawman of becoming the sabbath that you stated in your post) and declare Himself Lord of the Sabbath. Our rest now is in Jesus not in one day.

Chesterton · 2025-11-13T18:50:45-0600

Do you like animals? Do you also like dance crazes? Have I got some songs for you.

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prodromos · 2025-11-13T18:46:48-0600

Apple Sky said:
It is round but it is like a dish shaped disc, it is not spherical.

View attachment 373118

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The elephant in the room is what is casting the shadow on the moon. Oh, and that the premise of the video is that light is being reflected off the moon (how else can you cast a shadow on the moon) so it rejects one of flat earthers claims that that the moon is its own light source. Another own goal from flat earthers.
He also claims earth shine isn't a thing when it absolutely is. You only need to take a long exposure photo of a half moon to see the dark half is lit up by dim light reflected off the earth. It's one false claim after another which seems par for the course for flat earthers. You gotta lie to flerf.

jonojim1337 · 2025-11-13T18:45:55-0600

I have a lot of misaligned joints and crack them all the time. However, I know how to do it with the right amount of force and angle to get a ”damp” crack that stimulates synovial fluid production.

Seeing the commercials chiropractors make themselves is just painful. They seem to be giving way more force and angle than what the patients need. You can hear their joints weren’t ready for that manoeuvre.

NxNW · 2025-11-13T18:38:01-0600

RestoreTheJoy said:
A "thousand criminals" did not attack anyone. There were a small bunch who did, all arrested for violent acts.

The mob was shouting their intent to kill Mike Pence. "Pence got out before they murdered him" isn't a great counterargument.

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-13T18:35:45-0600

concretecamper said:
So i see you did and didn't like the answer.

Have a great night.

You assume too much and seem to be thoroughly convinced of what you believe, so. Good night.

com7fy8 · 2025-11-13T18:35:41-0600

bob121 said:
one-sentence moment when the bread and wine stopped feeling ordinary and you thought,

While I was a Catholic, I had the moment >

"I'm not sure the Eucharist is really the body of Jesus; and if it isn't, I can't take it."

Oompa Loompa · 2025-11-13T18:22:39-0600

Belk said:
No. Try addressing real issues, not the ones you make up to easily defeat.

If the issue is people being fooled with a $2000 check, I predict that hardly anyone will change their opinion about Trump and the people who hate him the most will gladly take the cash only to turn around and trash him for it.

Landon Caeli · 2025-11-13T18:16:38-0600

comana said:
This doesn’t prevent qualified immigrants from getting CDLs, the only change is the expiration date will align with the visa expiration date.

But it will prevent employers from hiring truckers who they "think" are legally allowed to drive trucks in this country, but aren't.

Delvianna · 2025-11-13T18:16:14-0600

PloverWing said:
Some of this is going to be natural climate. Much of Iran is naturally fairly arid (or so Wikipedia tells me ). In the comparison, I don't know whether you mean Georgia the state or Georgia the country. The US Atlantic coast typically gets lots of rainfall in most places. I know less about Georgia the country, but I think its climate is also naturally less desert-y than Iran.

A better comparison might be a place like Arizona, much of which is naturally arid.

People can live in arid places if there's a source of water and they use the water carefully, but if there's a drought, they're more vulnerable than wet coastal areas are. Droughts can be a judgment from God, hypothetically, but I'm more inclined to attribute them to natural causes. I don't think Arizona is especially sinful, for example.

Fair point! Okay, so Arizona got 7.49 so far this year. But with this in mind, wouldn't God bless a nation with more rain even if it was a desert if they were following him? Like for example, the nation of Chile is 70-89% Christian and their desert Atacama, is known as the worlds driest desert but this year, it bloomed. (link)

jonojim1337 · 2025-11-13T18:12:47-0600

The archtypical Pharisee is everywhere around us. It’s interesting that Christ did spend a good part of his ministry exposing these people, explaining their doom. And just like Abraham said, if they do not believe the words of Moses, neither will they believe if one rises from the dead.

They’re good at trying one’s patience and faith. Is that the only reason why they’re here?

Delvianna · 2025-11-13T18:08:21-0600

Hentenza said:
I hear you. That’s what I meant in the last part of my post. I was an advisor with CF back when we came out with the statement of faith. I was part of the advisory team that developed it. There was a lot of thought put into it and there was a lot of input from the membership then. CF was a bit different then and was very busy. We even had forums for non Trinitarian churches like the JWs, Mormons, and Christadelphians. Gnostics could even post in that forum. Now we have a watered down version of what it was. With that said, the statement of faith was not intended to define who was a Christian and who was not but merely to determine where they could post. Now is used to determine who can actually post in the Christian sections of the forum.

As far the doctrinal differences, I like to use 2 Timothy to make my point.

“But evil people and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness

bible.com

Evil and impostors will deceive. There are two types of people some evil and some impostors. Some of these are deceiving and some have been deceived. The evil ones we can just rebuke in Jesus name and move on but the ones that have been deceived is a group that we can teach and correct. I remember many Mormons and JWs back then that converted to Trinitarian denominations after realizing the foley of their doctrine.

The basics of the gospel, like Christ dying in the cross for our sins, is based on sound scripture teaching which Paul and the apostles taught. 2 Timothy was written in the mid to late 60’s while Paul was in prison in Rome so he was privy to the arguments against Christianity by groups like the gnostics, Roman philosophers, and other secular philosophies of the time, hence he was warning Timothy and the church to be on the look out. So we are still looking for the same things these days and groups like the Mormons and JWs fit the bill.

Other than the obvious though some denominations judge others that believe in the Jesus of the gospels by what I call non salvific doctrines. Doctrines that have no effect on our salvation. Doctrines like universalism and soul sleep for example do not question the Jesus of the gospel but some will question their Christianity and in CF can only be posted in the controversial theology forum. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ so as long as they can define the Christ of the gospel then I am not going to question their Christianity. So the body of Christ in my opinion are those Christians that believe in the Jesus of the gospel.

Sorry for the winded post.

Thanks for your response and well thought out reply! I appreciate the explanations and I can agree with this!

narnia59 · 2025-11-13T18:08:02-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Did you read it in context?

1 Cor 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

That would be at the judgement

Heb 9: 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Agree, that passage is referring to our judgment. After death. And exactly what do you think is happening in that passage when it refers to the truth that our works will be revealed by fire and tested by fire. And if those works are burned up we will suffer loss but will be saved through fire?

Always in His Presence said:
2 Cor 5:21 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If we have been made the righteousness of God through the sacrifice of Christ are we not sanctified.

Not shown anywhere in Scripture/

We are in the process of being sanctified. Otherwise, why is God disciplining us so we can share in his holiness (Hebrews 12:10)? Why are we told to strive for the holiness without which we will not see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14)?

Why does St. Paul, when speaking about the possibility of his sharing in Christ's resurrection tell us that "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own" (Philippians 3:11-12)?

Why does Paul tell the Corinthians that "beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1)?

None of that makes any sense if sanctifcation occurs completely and perfectly at the initial moment of salvation.

So once Christ dwells within us, he begins to sanctify us. We can cooperate and move towards perfection steadily, or we can resist, backslide, and drag our feet. If we follow the latter course we are more likely to experience the chastisement by God spoken about in Hebrews 12. But only once this sanctification process is complete are we ready for heaven. A place where we no longer sin because we no longer have any attachment to sin. We truly become one of the "just men made perfect" as Scripture calls those in heaven.

Delvianna · 2025-11-13T18:06:38-0600

PloverWing said:
Ah, I think this language may get used differently in your church than in mine. For me, you haven't "divided" anything until you walk out the door and say "I'm not going to belong to your church any more." If we're still in the same building and we're still arguing, we haven't divided yet.

Is this phrase "dividing the body of Christ" often used in your church community to shut down arguments?

I remember there being a sermon at some point about this and the point was essentially, arguing in general was "division" (in the context of debating scripture). Man, I can't remember where that sermon was but I vaguely remember something about it.

rockytopva · 2025-11-13T18:05:19-0600

I don't know who does the live stream videos best... Nice little 15 minute summary here...

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Say it aint so · 2025-11-13T18:05:02-0600

Judge appears skeptical of Lindsey Halligan’s appointment as interim US attorney

At a James Comey / Leticia Jame motion hearing at federal court today, the Judge in anticipating of receiving the Grand Jury transcript that Lindsey Halligan neglected to provide the first time it was requested, came up at today's motion. The Judge noted despite the second request the transcript is still not there. In response the DOJ with Halilgan at the helm responded, one doesn't exist. And the reason why it didn't exist was because there was no court reporter there. I kid you not. In their motion defense the DOJ lawyer argued that DOJ Pam Bondi had reviewed the transcript in a signed statement.

""Justice Department attorney Henry Whitaker urged Currie to treat questions about Halligan’s appointment as, at most, a “paperwork error” and emphasized that Bondi had reviewed the grand jury materials and agreed to retroactively “ratify” Halligan’s actions, even if her initial appointment is deemed invalid.

But Currie said the missing component of the grand jury transcript called into question the sufficiency of Bondi’s review.

“It became obvious to me that the attorney general could not have reviewed those portions of the transcript presented by Ms. Halligan,” Currie said. The judge also questioned why Bondi signed a statement saying she had reviewed Halligan’s actions before the grand jury when transcripts of some of that presentation “did not exist.”

“She couldn’t have,” Currie said.""

I mean either someone or all of them are lying to the judge. Under any other presidency or congress these folks would have been hauled into congress to answer questions of incompetancy and/or fired. But this is the Trump admin where incompetance takes a back seat to loyalty.

Neogaia777 · 2025-11-13T18:04:38-0600

Chesterton said:
I noticed. Otherwise you would have made an argument rather than just bald assertions.

We can't know everything, but we can know what knowing everything would have to entail or mean to some degree, and then use that knowledge to challenge or modify some of our current beliefs, which are/have been wrong a lot classically or historically, etc.

God Bless.

Dan Perez · 2025-11-13T17:57:57-0600

# 1 ONE GROUP. are those under the LAW. and the LAW of Moses does count for today as Christ BLOOD

has NOT YET BEEN CRUCISFIED on the Cross. !!

#. 2 Those who are in the BODY of CHRIST

# 3 THOSE that are UNBELIEVERS'

# 4 THOSE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT

dan p

Chesterton · 2025-11-13T17:56:04-0600

Neogaia777 said:
...I'm not really wanting to get into an argument here about it.

I noticed. Otherwise you would have made an argument rather than just bald assertions.

Chesterton · 2025-11-13T17:52:34-0600

prodromos said:
I wouldn't have a problem

Looks like you're the shot-caller in this joint.

Thank you, brother! I'll get started when I can.

GloryToHisName · 2025-11-13T17:50:58-0600

I’ve been studying Daniel 9:24–27 closely and created a detailed clause-by-clause chart of the prophecy, including Hebrew words, chiastic layers, and proposed historical and eschatological fulfillment. My translation emphasizes that the 70 weeks are “divided out” (נֶחְתַּךְ), and verse 25 mentions “the second sixty” (בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁים), suggesting a second 70-week cycle beyond the first 70 fulfilled historically (457 BC – 33 AD).

══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Verse | Phrase / Clause | Hebrew Key Words | Chiastic Layer | Fulfillment / Date Marker
──────|----------------|-----------------|----------------|-------------------------
9:24 | There are divided out seventy weeks | נֶחְתַּךְ | A – Divine Purpose | Dual cycle: first 70 (457–33 BC), second 70 (1542–2032 CE)
9:24 | For your holy city | קָדְשְׁךָ | A | First 70: Jerusalem rebuilt 457–408 BC
9:24 | And your people's rebellion | עַמְּךָ | A | Second 70: Israel aligns with man of sin, 1967–2032 CE
9:24 | For the restraining of lawlessness | לְכַלֵּא חַטָּאת | A | Second 70: restraining the man of lawlessness (2 Thess 2), 2025–2028.5 CE
9:24 | Marked out for the coming punishment of purging | עָוֹן | A | Second 70: end of tribulation / Day of the Lord, ~2032 CE
9:24 | For the sealing of the vision and the prophet | וּלְחָתֵם חָזוֹן | A | Second 70: vision fully realized in eschatological age, ~2032 CE
9:24 | Unto the age of righteousness; anointed holy of holies | צֶדֶק, וְלִמְשֹׁחַ קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים | A | Second 70: age of righteousness begins, ~2032 CE
──────|----------------|-----------------|----------------|-------------------------
9:25 | From the word that went forth | מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר | B – Starting Points | First 70: 457 BC decree; Second 70: 1542 CE Suleiman rebuilds
9:25 | For the restoration and building of Jerusalem | לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִם | B | First 70: 457–408 BC walls rebuilt; Second 70: 1542 CE walls rebuilt
9:25 | For a ruler and an anointed one for Jerusalem | נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ | B | First 70: Ezra & Nehemiah; Second 70: typological “anointed ruler” / covenant leadership, 1967–2032 CE
9:25 | It shall take seven sevens to be built | שִׁבְעָה שִׁבְעִים | B | First 70: 49 years, 457–408 BC
9:25 | Returned at the second sixty | בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁים | B | Second 70: 1967 CE, second 60th week, pivotal chiastic marker
9:25 | Anguish and diligence in streets | — | B | Both 70s: First 70 = post-rebuilding trials; Second 70 = tribulation, 2025–2032 CE
──────|----------------|-----------------|----------------|-------------------------
9:26 | Two and sixty weeks after | שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם | C – Pivot | First 70: Messiah cut off, 26–33 AD
9:26 | None of the Messiah will be cut off | וְאֵין לוֹ | C | First 70: preserved remnant of faithful Jews, 26–33 AD
9:26 | People of the ruler shall come like a flood | עַם-נָגִיד יָבוֹא בַּשֶּׁטֶף | C | Second 70: eschatological armies / enemies, 1967–2025 CE
9:26 | City and sanctuary destroyed | הָעִיר וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ יִשָּׁחְתּוּ | C | First 70: 70 AD temple destruction; Second 70: final judgment & abomination destruction, ~2032 CE
──────|----------------|-----------------|----------------|-------------------------
9:27 | He shall cause many of the covenant to prevail | וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים | D – Central Climax | Second 70: 2025 CE start of final 7-year week
9:27 | For the week and a half of one | וְחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ | D | Second 70: mid-week, 3½ yrs into final week, 2028.5 CE
9:27 | Upon offering and sacrifice he shall bring to end abominations | מִנְחָה וְזֶבַח … שִׁקּוּצִים | D | Second 70: eschatological cleansing of temple / people, 2025–2032 CE
9:27 | Until the one who makes desolate pours out what is decreed for consummation | שֹׁמֵם | D | Second 70: consummation / Day of the Lord, ~2032 CE
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Notes:
- Chiastic pattern: A–B–C–D–C’–B’–A’
- Hebrew keywords highlighted for structural clarity
- Second 60th week = 1967 CE pivotal marker
- Restraining lawlessness = 2 Thess 2 reference; final week = revealing of man of sin

Questions for the community:

1. Does the Hebrew wording and syntax provide linguistic support for two distinct 70-week cycles, rather than a single 490-year timeline?

2. Can the chiastic pattern (A–B–C–D–C’–B’–A’) be reasonably defended from a grammatical and syntactical standpoint?

3. Are there any objections from the Hebrew text itself (singular/plural forms, verb agreements, semantic scope) that might favor a single-cycle interpretation?

I’d love insights from scholars or practitioners experienced in Biblical Hebrew, Daniel studies, or eschatological prophecy analysis.

---
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
DANIEL 9:24–27 DUAL 70-WEEK CHIASM
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
CHIASTIC LAYER: A B C D

FIRST 70 WEEKS — HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
457 BC 408 BC 26 AD 33 AD 70 AD
|---------------|---------------|---------------|---------------|
Word goes 7 weeks Messiah Messiah cut Temple
forth: decree (49 yrs) appears off (וְאֵין לוֹ) destroyed
to rebuild Built walls (נָגִיד/ People of City & Sanctuary
Jerusalem /city מָשִׁיחַ) the ruler destroyed
(מִן-מֹצָא completed rejected (הָעִיר וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ)
דָבָר, בִּירוּשָׁלִם) Messiah)
נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ)

Verse refs: 9:24–26

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
SECOND 70 WEEKS — MODERN / ESCHATOLOGICAL FULFILLMENT
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
1542 CE 1967 CE 2025 CE 2028.5 CE 2032 CE
|---------------|---------------|---------------|---------------|
Word goes Second 60th Start final Midpoint of Consummation
forth: Suleiman week marker 7-year week week, half- / Day of Lord
rebuilt walls (בַּשְּׁנַיִם Many of the week (וַחֲצִי ends / holy
of Jerusalem שִׁשִּׁים) covenant הַשָּׁבוּעַ) place anointed
(מִן-מֹצָא prevail (וְהִגְבִּיר)
דָבָר)

Abominations cease (שִׁקּוּצִים)
Until the one who makes desolate pours out decree (שֹׁמֵם)

Verse refs: 9:24–27
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
CHIASTIC STRUCTURE KEY:

A — Holy City / People’s Rebellion (v.24)
B — Starting points / restoration (v.25)
C — Messiah cut off / people of ruler (v.26)
D — Many of covenant prevail / final week & half-week / cleansing (v.27)
C’ — Mirror of C: eschatological “people of ruler” & destruction
B’ — Mirror of B: second 60th week / Jerusalem returned
A’ — Mirror of A: consummation / sealing up / age of righteousness
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════

Dan Perez · 2025-11-13T17:49:31-0600

Abraham1st said:
All the promises of God were written in the book of Moses to the children of Israel, God fulfilled those promises to the world, so all the world requires those books for their fulfilment, including the book to the Hebrews.

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