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jonojim1337 · 2025-12-06T17:51:47-0600

9Rock9 said:
So, I want to explore political philosophy and how it relates to Christianity.

Ideally, our faith should inform our politics, but not the other way around. Yet, this unfortunately not the case in reality. I don't intend to turn this into a finger pointing game between the left and the right, I just want to explore options here.

Should the government enact policies that reflect Christian policies?

One could argue yes, since a Christian government could provide a moral foundation for an otherwise secular society and arguably improves everyone's lives. On the other hand, one can say that the government would just bastardize Christianity and use it as a weapon for social control.

What about libertarianism? The Bible says to help the poor and needy. Yet, does that mean we should petition the government to do it, or is charity a personal responsibility for us as Christians, and thus we should not outsource it to the state?

Should there be a government? There are verses that seem to advocate for submitting to earthly authorities. Then again, many of these earthly authorities have, and sometimes still do, put innocent people to death. It can also be argued that the government has a monopoly on force and violence.

What are your thoughts?

I'm personally undecided, but that's why I made this thread. I want to see what others think to help me find out where I stand.

Christian politics is, that 12,000 from each tribe of Israel will rule together with Christ. You can take that as a literal or figurative number, but the point is they are from one bloodline. This is non-negotiable. If you want to find out what bloodline it is, I guess you have to do some more reading and praying.

Hentenza · 2025-12-06T17:51:40-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
Considering Paul has a salvation warning 2Peter3:16

This is not a salvation warning nor does it take away from the truth of Paul’s writings. Remember that all of Paul’s epistles are inspired scripture. Maybe you are advocating to remove them from scripture because they are inconvenient to you?

The rest of your c&p I have addressed multiple times already.

bling · 2025-12-06T17:48:29-0600

ARBITER01 said:
John's water immersion was an immersion of repentance, meaning it was symbolic of the Spiritual immersion/born from above experience we could receive from Jesus once he was seated to the right of The Father and granted The Holy Spirit.

Where are you finding in scripture: "John's water immersion was an immersion of repentance, meaning it was symbolic of the Spiritual immersion/born"? John's baptism was a covenant action to show a commitment to accepting God's forgiveness and turning your life around.

ARBITER01 said:
Water in reference to immersion is always symbolic of The Holy Spirit. It's just another step in following Jesus and His example He gave us.

How do you show: Immersion in water is always symbolic of the Holy Spirit, since the Jew immersed ceremonially in many ways?

Hentenza · 2025-12-06T17:46:45-0600

FenderTL5 said:
It does not say:

What do you think being counted among wrong doers mean?

Hentenza · 2025-12-06T17:43:51-0600

Lost4words said:
His instruction to buy a sword was not a call to violence or rebellion, but a sober reminder that they were entering a dangerous and uncertain time

It was not a call to violence and no where did I argued that. They were indeed entering an uncertain and dangerous time which parallels the reason why we carry a firearm for protection these days.

Oompa Loompa · 2025-12-06T17:42:15-0600

Say it aint so said:
My grandfather Frank Gustaferro got the word at his uncle Carlo’s Bakery in Hoboken, New Jersey. His orders said that he was to report to the SS John Barry departing in a few days. The ship, secretly carrying millions of silver coins to support wartime operations in Saudi Arabia, was torpedoed by the German submarine U-859 on August 28, 1944. Two crewmen died in the blast. The rest, including my grandfather, ended up in the water — temporarily blinded from oil, injured, terrified, clinging to whatever wreckage they could find. They heard Japanese aircraft overhead as they floated in the Indian Ocean. My grandfather braced for the strafing run he assumed was coming. It never came. Even in the brutal logic of total war, there were limits. A line existed — a line older than the Geneva Conventions, older than the United Nations, older even than the modern idea of “war crimes” itself. You did not kill shipwrecked men in the water. You did not kill survivors who were out of the fight. You did not shoot the wounded clinging to debris. My grandfather survived because even America’s enemies in 1944 understood that basic rule of humanity.....

...The Imperial Japanese military, for all its many and well-documented atrocities, still had pilots and sailors who chose not to fire on American sailors who posed no threat. There are cases of American Navy sailors being spared by Japanese pilots and ship crews, as documented in James D. Hornfischer’s The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.

The international conflict law prohibiting such attacks, known as hors de combat, doesn’t care whether the people in the water were alleged drug smugglers, enemy fighters, or simply unlucky. America is built on the premise that “all men are created equal” — even those we fight. Humanity is the line that prevents war from collapsing into a massacre.....ROLLING STONE

We as the United States of America can do better. We need to do better.

Poor poor narco terrorists drug smugglers. If only they had the same level of outrage for the kids they kill every year with their cargo.

iluvatar5150 · 2025-12-06T17:41:50-0600

BPPLEE said:
It is remarkable that a man who couldn’t draw a crowd and campaigned from his basement for the most part got more votes than Obama

Why is it remarkable? We’d had 8 years of population growth in that time. More people == more votes.

DaisyDay · 2025-12-06T17:41:45-0600

Oompa Loompa said:
Okay. Then we should get rid of dual citizenship.

People are saying that it's in the offing. Will the Jews be forced to choose or will they be given an exception?

iluvatar5150 · 2025-12-06T17:39:31-0600

rjs330 said:
Sure there are those that do. However, in many Islamic countries death is codified in law. And in America where Christianity is still dominant for now, there is no such thing. Let the Islamists take over and there will be.

That homosexuality is not a capital offense in the US is not because of Christianity’s dominance, but in spite of it. When have American Christians ever been protective of the rights of gays? When have evangelicals ever been opposed to the death penalty?

For the last 35+ years, all I’ve heard from evangelicals is how homosexuality is an abomination and how affording it any rights is tantamount to destroying the family. You don’t get to pat yourself on the back for being restrained by libs.

bling · 2025-12-06T17:38:17-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There's a perfectly good and obvious reason why terms in the KJV with regards to a lot a scripture using terms such as "these" and "they" rather than people.

The reason is contained right there in the parable and exampled by Jesus and the Apostles that shows the devil and his messengers operate in and through people.

So, you will term people as just some people but the term some isn't in the parable

ALL people have the Word stolen from our hearts. ALL. That theft is perpetual. None have perfect and full understandings. None. There are no exceptions. Never have been other than God Himself in the flesh

Another strawman argument: I never suggested anyone other than Christ is perfect.

Do at least some Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit and if so does demons, devil or some other evil beings also dwell in these people?

I am still waiting on you to find on NT translation done by a group of scholars which has Mark 4:13-20 using people. Also look at Jesus explanation of the same parable in Matt:13: 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

You have to look at the context for both the soils and different individuals, they are not all the same people.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
We're not discussing possession

Are they not in the person causing sin?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Temptation equates to evil lawless thoughts which defile everyone. Again no exceptions. Never have been exceptions

You say: “Temptation equates to evil lawless thoughts which defile everyone. Again no exceptions.” Jesus was tempted so did He have evil thoughts?

Dreyma · 2025-12-06T17:36:56-0600

I'm currently teaching The Crucible to my eleventh graders. One of the characters, a slave named Tituba, is from Barbados. I didn't know where that was located, so I Googled it. Barbados is an island in the Caribbean Sea / West Indies:

comana · 2025-12-06T17:35:50-0600

Oompa Loompa said:
Okay. Then we should get rid of dual citizenship.

Why? What harm does it cause.

GoldenBoy89 · 2025-12-06T17:34:46-0600

durangodawood said:
Did you hear him? The sneering contempt. It was chilling actually, hearing our head of state talk about whole nationality like that.

I will never treat this behavior as normal. Anyone that stands behind him saying these things is frankly, just as garbage as what they are complaining about. People who think this way make us all look bad.

GoldenBoy89 · 2025-12-06T17:30:53-0600

BPPLEE said:
It is remarkable that a man who couldn’t draw a crowd and campaigned from his basement for the most part got more votes than Obama

Just shows how bad his opponent came across.

I also think public interest and awareness of politics sharply increased in the 4 years Trump was president his first term and especially so during that first year of Covid lockdowns and protests across the country. Couple that with an eased process to vote by mail and much greater awareness that’s an option I think all contributed to such a high turnout that year. Last year we were slightly more back to normal in terms of turnout and without any candidates really driving people out to the polls we got an extremely close race with Trump only slightly edging out over Harris. Two very unpopular choices to most voters. No crazy conspiracies necessary.

FenderTL5 · 2025-12-06T17:30:47-0600

Hentenza said:
It does.

It does not say:

Hentenza said:
Because they will be counted among the lawless.

Oompa Loompa · 2025-12-06T17:30:26-0600

DaisyDay said:
They are, in a way; as part of the nationalization swearing in, new citizens have to swear loyalty to the country and its constitution.

Okay. Then we should get rid of dual citizenship.

Hentenza · 2025-12-06T17:27:33-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
Paul is not speaking of the weekly Sabbath

He was a speaking of the sabbath. You can’t just change a definition because it is inconvenient to you.

Strong’s Definitions
σάββατον sábbaton, sab'-bat-on; of Hebrew origin (H7676); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:—sabbath (day), week.

DaisyDay · 2025-12-06T17:26:56-0600

Oompa Loompa said:
I think immigrants should be asked, "If war broke out between the United States and your home country, which side would you support?" It the answer isn't immediately "The United States," they should leave.

They are, in a way; as part of the nationalization swearing in, new citizens have to swear loyalty to the country and its constitution.

Tigger Boy · 2025-12-06T17:26:41-0600

CoreyD said:
I appreciate you telling me that, thanks.

Thanks for trying.
That was a great effort, and you did well - far better than Copilot, because you saw that these are not examples that will stand up, but actual people. This is why intelligent minds are better than AI.
You are correct. That is exactly what these texts are saying. Quite simply

The next step is to find out if this judgment is a day where people will line up before a throne, and sentence be read, after which, wrongdoers are punished.
I think you already recognize that cannot be the case, since the Queen of Sheba is spoken of in a positive way, as well as the Ninevites. In fact, even those in Sodom and Gomorrah, where that city and all in it were destroyed for gross sin, are all said to stand up "with this generation, and condemn it".

So then, how long is the judgment day?
Please read Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:4-6
Here, we see that Jesus judges with those chosen to rule with him for the thousand years, when the Devil is bound, so that he does not mislead the nations until the thousand years are ended. Revelation 20:1-4

Judgement day is a period of 1,000 years where all who return... actual people who lived in the land of Sodom and Gomorrah, Nineveh, Tyre and Sidon, .... the entire globe of unrighteous people, will be raised to, what Jesus calls, a resurrection of judgment. John 5:28, 29
What does this involve?

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another [i]book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds.

Of course, physically dead people cannot stand, so this scripture evidently refers to spiritually dead.
So, we can conclude that these are the same unrighteous people, that are raised to a resurrection of judgment.
The verse says these dead ones are judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
The Bible does not say what these books are, but they are judged according to their deeds.
Since the judgment is 1,000 years their deeds would correspond with that period, and those books.

The next verse tells us they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds, and if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life [the other book that was opened], he was thrown into the lake of fire... which means the second death. Revelation 20:13-15
That means, obviously, their deeds during the 1,000 years did not lead to righteousness.

So, after the 1,000 years, when Satan is loosed, and goes out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, he gathers together a great number of them that is like the sand of the seashore. Revelation 20:7, 8
Their final outcome is the second death.
However, they were given an opportunity to learn righteousness and practice it.

The answer then, to your query regarding God's mercy for people in the Old Testament. Yes. Not only is it reasonable, it's scriptural, that God remembers unrighteous people who died before having the opportunity to put faith in Jesus Christ, and will resurrect these ones to life, so that they can learn the truth, and live by righteous deeds... if they so desire. Acts 24:15
Those spiritually dead ones who practice righteousness, will come to life spiritually, after the 1,000 years. Revelation 20:5

Corey, my understanding of the thousand year judgement of Rev. 20, is a literal thousand years in which the living saints at the time of Christ return and those resurrected in the first resurrection (believers of all ages past) will set with Christ in heaven during this sentencing portion of Christ’s judgment of the lost. The saints will examine each lost individuals book of deeds to determine the amount of restitution that each sinner must atone for in Hell before they experience the second death.

The earth is void during this time, as all the lost are slain by the sword (command) that comes out of the mouth of the, Faithful and True [Christ] Rev. 19. The lost of all ages are resurrected in the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years, Revelation 20:5. Satin and his angels too, are released from the spirit realm again and gather the lost to destroy New Jerusalem, the camp of God’s people, the city He loves, (Rev. 20:7-9) which has come down from heaven.

Jesus commands a halt to Satan and the fallen before their assault on the city, for the Great White Throne Judgement is to take place. Here at this time all who have ever had life will be in attendance. The saints inside of New Jerusalem and the lost outside. The saints will have just witnessed that even when the wicked see New Jerusalem in it’s splendid glory before their very eyes, they still will not repent and honor God, but were willing to follow Satin and destroy God and His people. Their actions prove God was correct in judging them as unrepentant.

At this time also God wants the lost to understand why He could not save them, thus each individual is show their book of deeds that had been recorded during their lifetime, out of which Christ Judge them. After this reveal, every knee will bow before Christ our creator. The wicked because His justice was true, and the saints because of His mercy to save them by faith, knowing their unworthiness.

Then follows the fires of hell falling from heaven which devours the wicked, according to the restitution that each must pay before eternal death (the wages of sin) claims their life. Thus sin is no more, and Christ creates the new heaven and earth, and the saints witness it all, and receive it as their inheritance, because of their faith in Christ.

Dan Perez · 2025-12-06T17:26:38-0600

Dave... said:
Yes, they are in Heaven.

Before the cross John 3:13-15. That Psalm passage in post #21 was the wrong one. I fixed it. It said Psalm 16:19, but I meant Psalm 16:10-11. That was to show that what was called Sheol in the OT, is called Hades in the NT.

And John. 3:13 SAY that no one has ASCENDED. IN. HEAVEN ,( BUT // ME. , IS A DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE. ). means

NEVERRRRR has ascended to HEAVEN. but he that came down. FROM HEAVEN !!

So where does anyone go after DEATH ??

And I do have answer and shown just where the lost go after . death and. where those saved go after dying !!

dan p

Coolerranch · 2025-12-06T17:24:29-0600

*Takes a sip of magic tea* May God bless you even if it may seem as though satan has gotten an advantage or is worth believing. For God will send someone to help you whether it be the Holy Spirit, or angels, or a person to remind you that you're being helped by these beings.

Hentenza · 2025-12-06T17:23:52-0600

FenderTL5 said:
That's not what it says.

It does.

Hentenza · 2025-12-06T17:23:07-0600

d taylor said:
-

Well it is the age of satan and believers can be deceived into believing in lies.

The Hebrews are an example of this on may occasions worshiping false idols, that pagan groups introduced into their lives. Also Number 13,14 is a great example of the Hebrews believing in the lies of their own spies. Instead of the word/promise of God that He, (God) would be with them and that they can take the land God is giving them. So believers believing in lies is nothing new.

Space is not a lie but part of God’s magnificent creation. That space is real and is an absolute truth and that God created it is also an absolute truth. By saying that one is a lie is to call the second a lie also.

FenderTL5 · 2025-12-06T17:22:15-0600

Hentenza said:
Because they will be counted among the lawless. Rev. 1 also touches on this topic

That's not what it says.

d taylor · 2025-12-06T17:18:10-0600

Michie said:
Many believe in both.

-

Well it is the age of satan and believers can be deceived into believing in lies.

The Hebrews are an example of this on may occasions worshiping false idols, that pagan groups introduced into their lives. Also Number 13,14 is a great example of the Hebrews believing in the lies of their own spies. Instead of the word/promise of God that He, (God) would be with them and that they can take the land God is giving them. So believers believing in lies is nothing new.

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