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Studyman · 2025-10-15T09:08:55-0500

Dan1988 said:
Can you please show me a single place where I claimed that man is born immortal, I would never make such a silly statement in the first place.

We are debating, as the thread shows, whether mortal human lives (soul/spirit/essence, whatever you consider as "human") are tortured for eternity, along with evil immortal angels, in a fire specifically created for them. I am addressing your statements, like the following. This is not "Flaming", as you have asked me to show you what "You Claim", therefore, I should be withing the rules of this forum to provide an honest reply to your questions.

Dan1988 said:
"The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, awaits Satan and sinners alike. So what you said about people not being cast into the lake of fire to be tormented in fire for all eternity,, is not supported by the Bible. It's just your wishful thinking which is futile and doesn't change the fact that sinners will experience unimaginable torment in fire forever and ever with no hope of any ending."

And in this post.

Dan1988 said:
"Those who are cast into the lake of fire do not cease to exist, no they suffer Eternal Conscience Torment in Hell. So they are separated from "Life", to live is to be in Christ. Death is being separated from God for all eternity, so they experience dying an d death forever while they are fully conscience with all of their feelings intact."

So in each case, you are saying that some, perhaps many mortal humans will be placed in this fire, reserved for immortal angels and therefore, of course, the fire will burn forever and ever because angels are immortal.. But in your statements above, you are saying that this fire won't kill/destroy the mortal humans. That somehow these humans have become "immortal" and will therefore be tortured eternally just like the immortal angels that deceived them.

But where did these humans receive this immortality, you say they must have, come from? It can only come from God, in my view as a believer in God. So they were either born with it, which is what "many" who come in Christ's Name promote in this world God placed me in. Or God grants them the gift of immortality after HE raises them from the dead, and then casts them into the Fire..

I think both philosophies are, as you say, "Silly". Nevertheless, according to your statements, you are at least one of these silly teachings.

I have heard from men in this world that there are many different life's, deaths and genders and so on and so forth. But in my understand of the Holy scriptures, there are only 2 genders.

Male and Female,

And there are only two kinds of death.

A death from which there is a resurrection. (temporary death).

A death from which there is no resurrection, (death everlasting).

Just as there are only two kinds of Life.

A temporary life. (Mortal)

An Eternal life (Immortal)

And in each case, it is God who determines which is which.

What Paul advocates for is trusting in the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And then accepting His Determination and definition of these things, when "ALL" of His Word's are considered.

I believe Paul.

Stopped_lurking · 2025-10-15T09:05:40-0500

stevevw said:
Yes so why is this such a big thing.

Ok but are they wrong.

The median is a non-measure of precision (-1000, -500, 0, 1, 2) and (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2) both have the same median but if I said that they values measured a deviation from a centerline in the same units you would tell me that the precision was better for the second set of numbers.

stevevw said:
Oh I see "we don't know". Yet others are carrying on like they do know. Like this is evidence that everything is definietly wrong and whacko. This is the exact misrepresentation I am talking about.

Until we are certain the best approach is to not draw any big conclusions from the data.

stevevw said:
The science is the measuring. Its done by proper equipment and technicians. It is a seperate stage of merely gathering the data of all the measurements of the vases. Nothing about speculation about what those measures mean. In fact that state is not science but speculation.

Oh yes I forgot about those tests. Yet Max states that they were "crafted with technical sophistication comparable to modern technology".
No one is saying all the vases are precise or that they are perfect. Only that some fall into being precise enough that they match modern day tech.

Abstract
I analyzed 3D scans of 19 Naqada period stone vessels from the Petrie Museum of Egyptian and Sudanese Archaeology using the same algorithm and code as for Matt Beall’s collection. The analysis clearly shows that the examined Predynastic stone vessels were crafted with technical sophistication comparable to modern technology. The remarkable precision of the stone vessels, which starkly contrasts with the capabilities of late Neolithic societies, suggests these artifacts originate from a previously unrecognized, technologically advanced culture capable of rotational accuracy rivaling modern tools.

Precision of the Naqada Period Stone Vessels

Abstract I analyzed 3D scans of 19 Naqada period stone vessels from the Petrie Museum of Egyptian and Sudanese Archaeology using the same algorithm and code as for Matt Beall’s collection. Th…

maximus.energy

There is almost no overlap between the green dots and the yellow ones. The precise class in the REVISED analysis of Matt Bealls vases are better or equal to the modern replicas.

NB! Green in the plot below is in the precise class of Matt Bealls vases, not the Petrie vases! Precision and Classification of Predynastic Egyptian Stone Vessels: REVISED In the revised analysis V18 is also mostly out od the discussion.

stevevw said:
Why would they publish fullstop at this stage. They obviously need more tests. But why a metrology journal.

They don't have to! Getting published in any journal at this point would be good.

stevevw said:
It would more likely by The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology and The British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan, as well as publications that focus on specific aspects like the Arts of Making in Ancient Egypt series. The metrology would be a part of that but not dictate which journal. The aim is not to prove the metrology but that the vases are precise. The metrology is just the method of that aim. .

What is the industry standard.

ISO 1101 or ASME Y14.5, using terms defined in either two standards in a non-normal way should be avoided (as it can be seen as misleading). In this case calculating the RMSD instead of using an existing definition of circularity.

stevevw said:
Yes ultimately if you want to make a strong case you have to eliminate as much as possible any issues that will come up in peer review. Thats what testing is about. Until you prove your case or not. Only two tests at museums so far. So more needs testing.

But the metrology is proposing nothing. Its just measurements and doing as much as you can and by similar methods to compare and by other methods to cover most methods. Especially the best methods like CT scanning that get down to almost perfect measures.

Without good provenance the results are almost worthless, at best they can inspire them to make more measurements of objects with better provenance.

stevevw said:
Then once you have all the data you start trying to see patterns or methods of how the vases were made. One basic signature is the very good symmetry and circularity. A case of ddetermining whether the vase is turned or not. Its like reverse engineering the vase. That is all forensic science not speculation or assumptions. The numbers will tell the story.

Perhaps, but then they need to start publishing in peer-reviewed journals.

Kathleen30 · 2025-10-15T09:04:37-0500

Apple Sky said:
I believe this one, when I hear of the earth being billions of years old I just stop reading or switch it off. Such nonsense!

Apple Id agree you on that. Once your stretching over the 10 thousand mark and into the billions of years. One can pretty well make up anything they like. It’s no longer historical reality anymore

Ophiolite · 2025-10-15T08:58:22-0500

Servus said:
The Green Industry made $2 Trillion in 2024 for a total of $8 Trillion so far. Which anyone can look up to see for themselves. But of course by 2026 it will be even more. It's hard to get an exact current figure, considering how much money it's sucking in. Meaning that the Green Industry has just as much financial power to manipulate politicians and research as Koch and Exxon et al. Which is something worth taking into consideration.

Eventually as a matter of progress, the Green Industry will replace a lot of stuff anyways. But of course those making the most money from the Green Industry want as much money as possible ASAP.

The Green Industry has a negative impact on the environment as well. Namely when it comes to EV batteries. Explore the negative impacts of the Green Industry for better insights.

Two points:

You seem to have sidestepped acknowledgement of the extent and impact of global warming, other than a limp "The Green Industry has a negative impact on the environment as well."

What evidence do you have that the potential for Green Industry to influence politicians equally with the oil lobbies is being put into practice. And what evidence do you have that they are doing so with distorted arguments, as has been demonstrated for those on the other side?

FredVB · 2025-10-15T08:56:22-0500

Jeffrey Bowden said:
This is one of my favorite verses:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

“Those who dwell on the earth” are provably unbelievers. One of the best examples of that is:

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 6:10 (above), who are those crying out? They are new converts in the Trib. They are a product of the 144k who evangelize and save a multitude, in the Trib. In Rev 7, their tremendous achievement is celebrated.

Rev 6:11 makes clear that there will be two groups of martyrs that will make up the GM (great multitude), found in Rev 7:9-17.

The martyrs in Rev 6:10 are the first group of martyrs from seals 2 and 4. There’s devastating carnage in both. The second group (cited as “fellow servants” in Rev 6:11), are found in Rev 20:4. In the last sentence of Rev 20:4, all of these martyrs are resurrected. They appear next in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

It’s definitive that no believers will enter the Trib.

I was not talking about the great tribulation. The beast of prophecy that is often called Antichrist gains the following from all the earth, God's judgements come then with all the unrepented ungodliness there is then. So the collapse comes first, Mystery Babylon is the type for that. Then it is possible for that one who is the beast in prophecy to gain the following of all the world with the promises being made, ungodliness is the cost for it.
Revelation 11:18

FredVB · 2025-10-15T08:56:02-0500

What though is apocrypha that we would know to be separate from what is included in the Bible? I am sure that having anything about an angel from God coming to someone and lying or suggesting to lie so as to deceive would indicate writing to be separate from what is included in the Bible.

But what of the first book of Enoch, what is in it disqualifying it? Early believers observed what is read from it, it is mentioned in the new testament, and quoted a few times. Jesus asked the Sadducees if they had not read the scriptures, they should know that after the resurrection we can be like the angels in heaven who are not ever given in marriage, Matthew 22:30. What passages in the scriptures was Jesus referring to, where is it?

LoricaLady · 2025-10-15T08:51:13-0500

More than 30 pastors, ministers and Christian leaders have been detained, or placed under house arrest in the latest crackdown on churches in China.

Release Internationalpartners report simultaneous raids across seven provinces this month, targeting dozens of unregistered congregations. Those arrested include Pastor Jin Mingri, founder of the influential Zion Church network.

‘Today, we are witnessing the most extensive and coordinated wave of persecution against urban independent house churches in China in over four decades,’ our partners said, adding that the government’s actions are ‘a stark reminder that the Chinese Communist Party remains determined to eradicate any form of independent civil faith community that does not submit to state control.’

Pray for those recently arrested: for their health and well-being and for perseverance in their faith.

Pray for the families and friends of those currently being detained: for God’s grace and comfort in their lives at this time.
Pray for the continued impact of the gospel in China: that God will bring many more Chinese citizens to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

retired firefighter · 2025-10-15T08:46:04-0500

rockytopva said:
Are Pentecostal Holiness Pentecostal?
Are Church of God Pentecostal?
Are Congregational Holiness Pentecostal?

A grim reality I have run across over the years is that just because a doctrine states people as spiritual does not mean they are actually spiritual.

your comment is right on , just because one attend church ,some may have not accepted Christ as their savior, the same goes with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. maybe preachers should do more teaching on the basics on the Holy Ghost, the Gifts of the Holy Ghost and lastly the opportunity to come to the alter, for the laying on of hands with prayer from the elders for simply the Baptism for all who seek

camille70 · 2025-10-15T08:39:29-0500

Teacher claims ICE agents used tear gas near Chicago elementary school

Login to view embedded media

retired firefighter · 2025-10-15T08:39:06-0500

FenderTL5 said:
Yes, but I had verses 6 -11 in mind:
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

what church do you attend ? Pentecostal i assume

stevevw · 2025-10-15T08:38:34-0500

Stopped_lurking said:
They both use RMSD, but Karoly uses the median and Max uses the mean.

Yes so why is this such a big thing.

Stopped_lurking said:
They also differ in how they calculate their metrics, Karoly uses the geometric mean (g1*g2*...*gn)^(1/n) of the different median values whilst Max adds different error sources together RMSD + diff(centerpoint) + std(centerpoint) where he optimizes the z-axis to minimize diff(centerpoint). So their quality metrics are not directly comparable.

Ok but are they wrong.

Stopped_lurking said:
It can mean that, we won't know until the differences are ironed out.

Oh I see "we don't know". Yet others are carrying on like they do know. Like this is evidence that everything is definietly wrong and whacko. This is the exact misrepresentation I am talking about.

Stopped_lurking said:
Yes, the scientific study of measurement.

Even if we take that measure at face value, the implications are the science at hand.

The science is the measuring. Its done by proper equipment and technicians. It is a seperate stage of merely gathering the data of all the measurements of the vases. Nothing about speculation about what those measures mean. In fact that state is not science but speculation.

Stopped_lurking said:
No Max has measured actual vases from the Petrie museum Precision of the Naqada Period Stone Vessels himself. And they are less precise than modern replicas as a group.

Oh yes I forgot about those tests. Yet Max states that they were "crafted with technical sophistication comparable to modern technology".
No one is saying all the vases are precise or that they are perfect. Only that some fall into being precise enough that they match modern day tech.

Abstract
I analyzed 3D scans of 19 Naqada period stone vessels from the Petrie Museum of Egyptian and Sudanese Archaeology using the same algorithm and code as for Matt Beall’s collection. The analysis clearly shows that the examined Predynastic stone vessels were crafted with technical sophistication comparable to modern technology. The remarkable precision of the stone vessels, which starkly contrasts with the capabilities of late Neolithic societies, suggests these artifacts originate from a previously unrecognized, technologically advanced culture capable of rotational accuracy rivaling modern tools.

Precision of the Naqada Period Stone Vessels

Abstract I analyzed 3D scans of 19 Naqada period stone vessels from the Petrie Museum of Egyptian and Sudanese Archaeology using the same algorithm and code as for Matt Beall’s collection. Th…

maximus.energy

Stopped_lurking said:
Sure, many people are good at using the measurement tools of their trade. However, this is not doing the science of metrology. If these testers actually were the first in scanning complex geometries they could actually publish in metrology journals, but I think they are too late to that party.

Why would they publish fullstop at this stage. They obviously need more tests. But why a metrology journal.

It would more likely by The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology and The British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan, as well as publications that focus on specific aspects like the Arts of Making in Ancient Egypt series. The metrology would be a part of that but not dictate which journal. The aim is not to prove the metrology but that the vases are precise. The metrology is just the method of that aim. .

Stopped_lurking said:
Not specific science, but they should follow what is industry "best practices" or face questions about why not. There are no obvious reason for them to define circularity different from ISO 1101 for example. I understand why RMSE (RMSD) can feel like a good measure but it is not industry standard or the golden standard.

What is the industry standard.

Stopped_lurking said:
I wouldn't even want to use the ones in museum collections if they can't be traced back to a specific dig. Try to certify a biomedical laboratory by saying "we used this standard we found at the back of freezer".

Yes ultimately if you want to make a strong case you have to eliminate as much as possible any issues that will come up in peer review. Thats what testing is about. Until you prove your case or not. Only two tests at museums so far. So more needs testing.

Stopped_lurking said:
So be it then, find new vases and measure them.

That was why I brought up the likelihood ratio or the Bayes factor, they allow us to put a number to competing hypotheses. But more importantly it forces those involved to be specific about their assumptions, now it is conjecture and handwaving.

But the metrology is proposing nothing. Its just measurements and doing as much as you can and by similar methods to compare and by other methods to cover most methods. Especially the best methods like CT scanning that get down to almost perfect measures.

Then once you have all the data you start trying to see patterns or methods of how the vases were made. One basic signature is the very good symmetry and circularity. A case of ddetermining whether the vase is turned or not. Its like reverse engineering the vase. That is all forensic science not speculation or assumptions. The numbers will tell the story.

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:35:54-0500

fairy ring

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:35:06-0500

Yum (even though I am not a dog I do appreciate a well-boiled marrow bone)

?

Bob Crowley · 2025-10-15T08:33:30-0500

Wolseley said:
I have to go in this morning for either two root canals, or one root canal and one extraction. I am not a fan of dental work, thanks to the very first dentist I ever saw in 1965---a sadist whom I believe to this very day was an escaped Nazi. In any event, I am not looking forward to this, and if you could all pray that everything goes well today, I would be grateful.

Glad to see all is OK, and that the SS Sturmbahnfuhers were at another location.

I suppose I've been pretty lucky with dentists, but I remember a few less pleasant incidents. When I was about 13, a couple of years after your 1965 incident, I went to the dental hospital for an extraction. It was where they trained dentists and I think it was free, which is why I was there.

On the way in I passed another kid standing in front of the washbasins bawling his eyes out and spitting blood all over the place.
The dentist said sotto voice "I think you're a bit tougher than him...". But it wasn't an encouraging spectacle. Obviously they never read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence Patients".

They've moved a long way since then though, and the costs have gone up with it.

There is still a dental hospital and maybe the kids are still there bawling their eyes out ... :prayer:

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:33:16-0500

Peter Parker

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:31:58-0500

quartz

Jerry N. · 2025-10-15T08:31:03-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
Good advice. A good chiropractor is one that puts his hands on you and does the manipulations. Chiro means hand practior means movement or manipulation which is based on manual which also means hand.
The chiropractor can move your spine to take pressure off the nerves. You still need strengthening exercises to stabilize the bones and keep them from moving back. If you don’t strengthen your back, the bones keep moving and you get “addicted” to the chiropractor

To me, a bad chiropractor is one that does not manipulate your spine hooks you up to machines and does a lot of clicking to convince you it’s working but it’s just draining your wallet

Chronic pain is a full time job, not just for the doctor, but for the patient as well. It takes work to fix. The work can be frustrating but has to be done

Another overlooked aspect of chronic pain is the role the brain plays. Patients don’t like to hear this because they get offended. They will resist and say my pain is real, it’s not in my head. You think I am crazy. No I don’t. I know you are suffering
Think of your brain as a muscle. What you think about will make that part of your brain stronger. If all you think about is woe is me, I am in pain. You will become sad and in pain all the time, you will hate doctors and medications and say nothing works. If all a person thinks about is pain, the brain gives you pain.
Instead, develop a hobby, read a book, get out in the sun, talk to others, get your mind off the pain and you will see it becomes more manageable.
Scripture even tells you to do this, which convinces me of the truth of God’s existence and the truth of the Catholic faith. We cannot earn salvation but when we are born again, we are called to follow in Jesus’ footsteps, deny ourselves and mortify the deeds of the flesh.

Philippians 4

6 Be nothing solicitous; but in every thing, by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your petitions be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. 8 For the rest, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever modest, whatsoever just, whatsoever holy, whatsoever lovely, whatsoever of good fame, if there be any virtue, if any praise of discipline, think on these things. 9 The things which you have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, these do ye, and the God of peace shall be with you.

If all we think about is sin and our inability to overcome it, then we are stuck in sin. If we take our minds off of ourselves and our sin and focus on Christ and His righteousness, He has promised to give us the power to overcome sin. We just have to believe Him

Apocolypse (Revelation) 21

6 And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the end. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely. 7 He that shall overcome shall possess these things, and I will be his God; and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Paul tells us to not listen to people that say sin is too strong and penance is no good. Prayer focuses our mind on God and penance helps to learn horror of sin. How we think is how we are. It’s true for chronic pain and it is true to our Christian faith. That is why I am Catholic, because the faith trains me in righteousness and does not allow me to give up on my sin. I can overcome by the grace of God.

Romans

1 I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world; but be reformed in the newness of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, and the acceptable, and the perfect will of God.

God gives us power to follow Him when we ask. As it says in John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

Paul warns us to beware those that deny this power.

2 Timothy 3

: 5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid

In chronic pain, we have to avoid the doom and gloom thinking or else we will be sad and in pain the whole time. If we focus our minds on other things, the pain will get smaller. You may realize oh I was having so much fun, I forgot I was in pain

Jesus calls us to come and walk on the water. We can focus on ourselves and the wind and the waves and we will sink. The wind and the waves are our sin and temptation. If we hang around people that tell us our sin is too strong for us, guess what? Instead of overcoming, we will be overcome by sin.

Life is full of scoffers and nay sayers, both in chronic pain and in Christianity. The Catholic Church gives so many graces in the sacraments and follows the biblical command to train in righteousness, I cannot listen to the scoffers any longer. God loves all His children and He offers His salvation to everyone.

We overcome chronic pain by practice, and we overcome sin in the same way. If you don’t want to believe me, there is nothing I can do for you as a doctor or a Christian.

Sorry for the tangential thoughts, but my 15 yrs of treating chronic pain has taught me so much about my faith

Forgive me and peace be with you

There is nothing to forgive. It was a very uplifting post.

I went to a Russian chiropractor several years ago. I am average size for my generation. He was a giant. My eye level was at his chest, and he was at least three times my weight without fat. He twisted my body into positions I didn’t think possible. It didn’t hurt much, but I didn’t enjoy the experience. My pain went away for about six months, but I decided that the gentle therapists at the local clinic were a better option. They slowly manipulated my spine every day for a week. The manipulation of my spine helped a lot, but the electrical therapy was also useful. The pain also went away for about six months.

BCP1928 · 2025-10-15T08:29:39-0500

stevevw said:
These are legends and legands are based on something true. Do you not believe the ancient people themselves. Are you not being imperial lol.

Another logical fallacy. Go back and check. I am pretty sure I said "like CNC machine" or "on par with CNC machining". Once again you have taken my words and created a stawman.

No this is the orthodox narrative. Fact the precision vases are found with the Naqada people such as in burial pits (3600-3200BC). Fact they are also found under predynastic Matabas (pre 3000BC). Fact they are found under the Stepped pyramid Djoser (c. 2592–c. 2566 bce) where he gathered them from earlier periods already made.

Fact the potters wheel and Bore stick did not come to Egypt until 2600BC. This is the orthodox timeline. I am only pointing out that these vases are out of place when it comes to the orthodox timeline. You are the one injecting Atlantis into the equation like you want it to be true more than the researchers lol.

Actually no. The investigation into working out how they may have achieved the level of precision or other works is the followup part to first establishing that this is advanced tech signatures. I mean skeptics are complaining about whether there is advanced tech and knowledge to begin with. So I think first its establishing this fact.

Thats done with the testing and metrology. The more the better to establish for certain there was a level of tech beyond what we would consider for that period. You know the narrative, first there were primitive neolithic flint cultures who had basic shelters and hunted and all that lol. The consensus is certain timelines for certain levels of tech and development.

Only in recent times the consensus was sophisticated cognition happened 50K ago. Now this is pushed back to 200 or 300K. So it makes sense that we also push back the timeline for tech and knowledge. This comes from the out of place works we see all over the world.

What's your source for all of that? The Boy's Own Book of Ancient Civilizations ca. 1950?

stevevw said:
Your creating a false representation when you say that this advanced tech and knowledge has to be like todays methods. We don't know. All I am saying is that the signatures look like modern methods. It may be like I mentioned theres some other kind of knowledge that can manipulate nature, the physics of stones and soften them.

I didn't say that it had to be like today's methods, though that seems the most probable. You're the one who wants it to be something that the Naqada people couldn't have developed themselves because you want it to be magic technology from Shangri-La.

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:27:25-0500

licking

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:26:37-0500

bootmaker

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:25:32-0500

quinoa

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:23:36-0500

Globe and Eagle March

globe and eagle march - Search Videos

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Studyman · 2025-10-15T08:23:34-0500

Mercy Shown said:
Not sure what you mean here, but animal sacrifices for sin go way back before the Torah became The Law.

The Hebrew word for "LAW" is "תּוֹרָה", "towrah". This means that you just said;

"Not sure what you mean here, but animal sacrifices for sin go way back before God's Law became God's Law."

That doesn't make much sense.

Mercy Shown said:
️ 1. Genesis 3:21 – God clothing Adam and Eve

Meaning:
This is not explicitly called a sacrifice, but the implication is that an animal was slain to cover their shame and nakedness — a symbolic picture of atonement and covering for sin (compare “atonement” = kaphar, “to cover”).
However, this is God’s act, not a commanded sacrifice by humans.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Nevertheless, there was No Commandment of God for man to kill animals "because of their transgressions". This command wasn't "ADDED" to God's LAWS until 430 years after Abraham, at least this is what Paul and the Holy Prophets teach.

Mercy Shown said:
2. Genesis 4:3–5 – Cain and Abel’s offerings
Meaning:
This is the first recorded animal offering by a human.
While the text doesn’t explicitly say it was for sin, Hebrews 11:4 gives commentary:

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying "of his gifts": and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Yes, it wasn't an offering Commanded by God "because of their Transgressions", which is the entire premise of your reply. It was a free will offering to God out of respect and honor towards God.

Prov. 3: 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Mercy Shown said:
This suggests Abel’s sacrifice was accepted because of faith in God’s provision for sin — a substitutionary offering, prefiguring later sin offerings.
Still, no law or priesthood existed here; it’s voluntary worship, not an atonement system.

There was no Commandment from God that they should kill goats, "because of their Transgressions". The AI teaching here doesn't mention that Cain gave a free will offering to God, same as Abel, but it wasn't the best of his increase. I think you have missed the entire point of the Scripture in your attempt to defend and justify the religious philosophy that God's entire Law wasn't "ADDED" until AFTER Transgressions.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present your bodies" a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Isn't this the real difference between Cain and Abel?

Mercy Shown said:
3. Genesis 8:20–21 – Noah’s burnt offerings after the Flood

Meaning:
Burnt offerings (olah) were acts of devotion and thanksgiving.
Verse 21 says, “The Lord smelled a sweet savour,” and in response, promised never again to curse the ground.
This shows divine acceptance, but again, it’s not explicitly a sin offering for atonement — more a dedication or thanksgiving offering.

Yes, a free will offering to God for His Mercy and promises. And to Ratify a covenant God made with Noah, just as Moses in the Ex. 24 verse you referenced that I posted for our discussion and in the hope that you might answer questions asked of you, concerning the teaching you are furthering. There is no mention of a Commandment of God to kill animals, "because of his transgressions". You are making my point for me.

Mercy Shown said:
️ 4. Genesis 15:9–10 – Abram’s covenant sacrifice

Mercy Shown said:
Meaning:
These animals were cut in two as part of the covenant ceremony between God and Abram.
This was not for sin, but to ratify God’s covenant promise to give Abram descendants and land.

I think you should read the entire story. And yes, it wasn't about killing animals for the remission of Abraham's sin.

Mercy Shown said:
5. Genesis 22:13 – Abraham and Isaac
Meaning:
This was a substitutionary sacrifice — the ram died in place of Isaac.
It foreshadows substitutionary atonement (Christ, the true Lamb of God), but it was not a sin offering under law — it was an act of obedience and faith.

Yes, it was not about Abraham sacrificing Isaac "because of his transgressions". The command by God to kill animals "because of transgressions" was not "ADDED" to God's Laws, Statutes, Commandments and Judgments Abraham obeyed, until 430 years after Abraham.

Again, you are making the point Paul was making. The "LAW" that was ADDED, "Because of Transgressions", wasn't added until after the Golden Calf.

Mercy Shown said:
️ 6. Exodus 10:25 – Moses before the Exodus

Meaning:
Before Sinai, Moses acknowledges that sacrifices were part of Hebrew worship, but still, no system for sin atonement or priesthood yet existed.
These were likely peace or burnt offerings, expressing devotion to God, not Levitical sin offerings.

Yes, God's Laws existed which defined sin, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) lived by them, and free will offerings to God were offered as expressions of Love and respect for their King. But Israel lost sight of them, and sent Moses to show them once again.

But the "LAW" concerning burnt offering and sacrifices "because of transgressions", (Sin) wasn't "ADDED until after Israel broke God's Covenant, and Moses went up the 2nd Time to secure another Covenant.

This is the "LAW" Paul was speaking to, that the required Jews to come to "them" for atonement, and not to Jesus. Paul is telling them that the very reason this "ADDED" Law was given, was to lead them to their True High Priest, the Lamb of God.

The deceiver would have you and I believe that "ALL" of God's Laws defining sin, righteousness, holiness, judgments etc.,, given to Moses, were not given until after Transgressions. But this deception is stupid, given that their is NO Transgression, without LAW.

Mercy Shown said:
7. Job 1:5; 42:8 – Job’s burnt offerings
Meaning:
These are the clearest examples before Moses of animal sacrifices being used in relation to sin.
But notice:

There’s still no written command or priesthood; Job acts as his family’s priest.

God accepts the offerings (Job 42:9).

This shows a principle of substitutionary atonement known by the patriarchs, but not yet codified in the Mosaic Law.

Remember, we are arguing about what "LAW" was ADDED "because of Transgressions" that the Pharisees were still promoting to the Galatians.

A Law that was to Lead them to their Prophesied, True High Priest. A "Law" that wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham.

This World's religious system, and by extension you, because you promote the same philosophy, is that this "LAW" was the entire Law of God, made known to the world through Moses, His Chosen Servant, through the Law and Prophets. And you specifically stated the LAW can not be "parsed", meaning that if I Love the Lord my God with all my heart, I must also kill a goat "because of my transgressions" or I am not obeying God. I tried to show you how the "Priesthood", unlike God's Judgments and Commandments, was temporary from it's conception. And was Prophesied to end. While God's Laws defining sin, righteousness, clean, holy and just, are eternal.

Hentenza · 2025-10-15T08:22:08-0500

ViaCrucis said:
1) I think it's about time that the Democratic Party is retired. There are Democrats I respect, and I will on the whole vote Democrat because I think the Democratic platform, at least on paper, is more moral than the Republican platform. But I have precisely zero ounces of affection toward the Democratic Party. I would prefer a more robust, explicitly progressive party that is both clear--and honest--in its platforming about social justice and civil liberties. The Democratic Party, as it exists, is largely a center-right party that occasionally gives token nods to people on the left; and only appears liberal and progressive when compared to the Republican Party.

2) Where I think the Democratic Party is largely a ridiculous mess of mixed messaging, token support, and only still exists because it's been around for so long nobody knows what to do about it; the other Big Alternative--the Republican Party--as best as I can tell has degenerated to little more than a group of sniveling sycophants who are incapable of doing anything but licking Donald Trump's shoes. Either because they are afraid of the MAGA monster he--and they--created; or because MAGA is a useful tool they think they can control (they can't); or because some actually believe it. Perhaps a mix of all three.

I don't vote Democrat because I like the Democratic Party. I vote Democrat because I'm stuck with a political system where my choice is between unseasoned raw tofu or literal poison. So I guess I'm going with compromise and bland, because it's better than literal poison. The Democrats lack any spine to actually defend the American people from the power-hungry maniacs who want to rob and exploit us, but they'll at least make token efforts to not let it get too bad; on the contrary the Republicans seem highly invested in making everything worse for every American.

So at the end of the day all I can do is try to operate with a conscience informed by the Christian values I was raised to have: Love others, especially the least of these, and desire that my neighbor flourish. I may not get to vote for what I want, but at least I'm not voting to see my neighbors actively hurt because I think people who speak a different language or who look different than me are subhuman.

-CryptoLutheran

And yet the voters voted for the party that you call “literal poison” and Donald Trump. Progressive agendas and policies have been proven completely wrong and voters associate the Democratic Party to progressive ideas. A perfect example would be the soft on crime agenda of progressive DA’s and also the open borders stand. You stand in the minority preaching destructive progressive agendas. These will never win an election. Good luck.

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T08:18:46-0500

Paulwat said:
Virtual

Virtual is not a thing.

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️ 1. Genesis 3:21 – God clothing Adam and Eve​

2. Genesis 4:3–5 – Cain and Abel’s offerings​

3. Genesis 8:20–21 – Noah’s burnt offerings after the Flood​

️ 4. Genesis 15:9–10 – Abram’s covenant sacrifice​

5. Genesis 22:13 – Abraham and Isaac​

️ 6. Exodus 10:25 – Moses before the Exodus​

7. Job 1:5; 42:8 – Job’s burnt offerings​

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️ 1. Genesis 3:21 – God clothing Adam and Eve

2. Genesis 4:3–5 – Cain and Abel’s offerings

3. Genesis 8:20–21 – Noah’s burnt offerings after the Flood

️ 4. Genesis 15:9–10 – Abram’s covenant sacrifice

5. Genesis 22:13 – Abraham and Isaac

️ 6. Exodus 10:25 – Moses before the Exodus

7. Job 1:5; 42:8 – Job’s burnt offerings