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Jeff Saunders · 2025-07-06T12:18:15-0500

Maria Billingsley said:
First of all, Augustine is not the authority on the final view of hell. This is purely his
"opinion " . Additionally, there is no absolute clear teachings found in scripture. What we do find are three possible views of hell and of course the eternal torment is extremely uncomfortable for all of us. That being said, why focus on this issue and use it as a possible way to prove we have a hypocritical God?

Thanks for sharing!

Be blessed.

Because God is not hypocritical if you believe the teachings of scripture that say he will reconcile all to himself, but if you believe that he either eternally tortures or annihilates those who do not understand him he would be hypocritical.
The latter is not love no matter how you try to justify it.

Fervent · 2025-07-06T12:16:40-0500

trophy33 said:
In that case we can change Scriptures at our will in time if it is useful for Christians. Or even rewrite it?

Nope, because we have fairly secure texts for the canonical versions. The differences in canon across the churches is on inclusion of additional books like 3 & 4 Maccabees. In fact, your objection seems rather bizarre for someone championing text criticism that places scholars as the judges of what should and shouldn't be in the Bible especially given the subjective nature of most text critical criteria.

Clare73 · 2025-07-06T12:15:57-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
IF Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all people and IF sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19,

"World" (all people) has two meanings in the NT:
1) all without exception (all mankind),
2) all without distinction (both Jew and Gentile).

In the context of the rest of the NT, the meaning of 2 Co 5:19 is the second one; i.e., all who believe, both Jew and Gentile.

Landon Caeli · 2025-07-06T12:13:36-0500

Larniavc said:
I ALWAYS carry my Bat Fludd Repellant EVERYWHERE I go (even to the toilet). Frankly anyone who doesn't deserves everything they get get.

Love your custom title! :oldthumbsup:

Maria Billingsley · 2025-07-06T12:11:56-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
God has said,1 Cor 12:5-8 love keeps no record of wrongs, Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father says-Matt 4:44 Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,love tolerates all things,has faith in all things,hopes in all things, endures all things,Love never fails -Jam 2:8 Love your neighbor as yourself-2 Cor 5:19 not counting peoples trespasses against them.
I in scripture this is what we are told to do to others and what God is like and doing.
According to Western Augustin Christianity, once your leave your temporary mortal body, if you miss understand what God has done or you outright reject humans ideas of God, He will burn you eternally or annihilate you.
How is this view of God not make him into a God who says do as I say not as I do?
Please no answers of Gods ways are higher than ours, that's a copout.

First of all, Augustine is not the authority on the final view of hell. This is purely his
"opinion " . Additionally, there is no absolute clear teachings found in scripture. What we do find are three possible views of hell and of course the eternal torment is extremely uncomfortable for all of us. That being said, why focus on this issue and use it as a possible way to prove we have a hypocritical God?

Thanks for sharing!

Be blessed.

Studyman · 2025-07-06T12:10:15-0500

Clare73 said:
Non responsive to the question. . .duplicitous. . .no basis for discussion.

That is fascinating. You would rather close your eyes, plug your ears, and promote a lie, than answer honest questions about what Paul is actually teaching.

How duplicitous.

Fervent · 2025-07-06T12:07:32-0500

trophy33 said:
The "perfect" was about my effort, not about the Orthodox effort.

I understand, though I put quotes around perfect and autographs because those are distinctly modern ideas.

trophy33 said:
I am not sure if I understand your point, but if you are saying that Orthodox Christians are not interested in the original text, but in the church text (they do not care too much if it is original or not), then I agree. This is not attractive to me, though. I have more "scientific" mind in this regard.

It's a matter of belief about what gives the text its authority, rather than simple disinterest. The Orthodox see the authority of the text coming not from some magical theory of original inspiration and impeccableness, but because of its role in the church and the canonical versions of the text. As a consequence, what was in the originals is only of marginal interest to Orthodox because the authoritative versions of the texts are the ones that managed to achieve canonical status. Though the Orthodox tend to have a broader view of canon as well, which is why they accept a variety of canons depending on which Orthodox church we're speaking of.

FreeinChrist · 2025-07-06T12:06:23-0500

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for staff review. As a reminder, the flaming rule includes:

Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

Hentenza · 2025-07-06T12:04:54-0500

BCP1928 said:
Perhaps you should offer him or her one and discuss it. If you want a person to work for you you have to make it worth his while.

Why is it that we are responsible for their choices? When is their life their own?

Hentenza · 2025-07-06T12:03:13-0500

trophy33 said:
Working poverty is worse. You have neither money nor time.

So lazy is the answer for you then.

HBP · 2025-07-06T12:00:44-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
IF Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all people and IF sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19, THEN committing people to eternal torture or death for the "SIN" of unbelief was NOT covered by the atonement.

And THEN we have the involvement of the devil, Satan, in all unbelief, per Acts 26:28, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, so there is another entity class involved other than the "captives" of Satan, who is the "CAPTOR."

Did Jesus come to set a handful of captives free? Or all captives?

I'd say if just a few, then not much of a Savior, but rather a minor case savior, only able to get the job done for those who "helped themselves" in making Him valid. Otherwise it was all for naught

The term I always use for the sort of bumper-sticker theology popular here is "cartoonish." It seems to me it posits a God who is too small and petty to be real. When the bumper-sticker believers refer to the glory, magnificence, etc., etc., of their God it always sounds like whistling past the graveyard because the theology doesn't describe a God who is glorious and magnificent at all. I understand there are many Christians who need this sort of theology and the faux certainty it provides, but they are missing almost all the depth of more mature Christianity.

Fervent · 2025-07-06T12:00:43-0500

BCP1928 said:
And you would be arguing about it with people who are against it--the very same people you are arguing with here and for exactly the same reason.

I'm sure, people in positions of privilege rarely give up those privileges without a fight.

Lukaris · 2025-07-06T12:00:34-0500

I believe the information posted in this thread is valuable and informative. I believe Christian faith has faced challenges all along. Consider the fragmentation that the late 2nd century bishop: St. Irenaeus confronted in his era before faith was embraced by the emperors.

Against Heresies (Irenaeus) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A key probable difference, tragically lost, is that St. Irenaeus did this non violently.

Fervent · 2025-07-06T11:58:57-0500

trophy33 said:
When I was looking for the "perfect" text of the Greek New Testament like a decade ago, I studied also the Orthodox versions. They have nothing similar to protestant textual criticism. They use traditional church versions or the protestant versions.

Something closest to critical text would be probably Robinson-Pierpont edition of the Byzantine family (I had this printed when I preferred the Majority text before I switched to the Minority text), but this was their own effort.

This is somewhat unsurprising, because the Orthodox aren't interested in a "perfect" text nor do they place their trust in the "autographs" or original inspiration in the manner that Protestants do. For the Orthodox, it is canonization that matters and it is the traditional versions that achieved canonical status. So why upset the apple cart by trying to recover the originals?

ViaCrucis · 2025-07-06T11:58:15-0500

ARBITER01 said:
In a Spirit-filled Pentecostal church, yes.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians 5:22-26

-CryptoLutheran

essentialsaltes · 2025-07-06T11:56:32-0500

The National Weather Service warned of “life-threatening flooding” along the river in a series of alerts in the early morning hours. But questions remain about how many people they reached, whether critical vacancies at the forecast offices could have affected warning dissemination, and if so-called warning fatigue had been growing among residents in a region described as one of the most dangerous in the country for flash flooding.

The two Texas NWS offices most closely involved in forecasting and warning about the flooding on the Guadalupe River — Austin-San Antonio and San Angelo — are missing some key staff members, but still issued a slew of watches and warnings about the flood danger.

The question is whether the warnings reached who they needed to reach.

Tom Fahy, the legislative director for the NWS employees’ union, told CNN that while he believes the offices had “adequate staffing and resources,” the Austin-San Antonio office is missing a warning coordination meteorologist — a role that serves as a crucial, direct link between forecasters and emergency managers.

The first warning for “life-threatening flash flooding” for Kerrville came at 1:14 a.m., and was marked specifically to trigger the Emergency Alert System. It would have sounded the alarm on cell phones in the warned area, assuming those phones had service, and their users hadn’t turned off EAS weather alerts.

The NOAA official defended the National Weather Service forecasts, and said the disaster ultimately resulted from too much rain in too short of time in one of the most vulnerable spots in the country for flash flooding, and in the overnight hours — the worst time of day to get warnings to people in harm’s way.

The [Trump 2026 request] budget seeks to eliminate all of NOAA’s weather and climate research labs along with institutes jointly run with universities around the country. The entire research division of NOAA would be eliminated under the proposal, which is subject to congressional approval.

One of the NOAA labs slated to be shut down is the National Severe Storms Lab in Norman, Oklahoma, which works to improve flash flood forecasting among other hazards from severe thunderstorms.

Fervent · 2025-07-06T11:56:32-0500

chevyontheriver said:
There IS a stratification as to function. After all, we are not all eyes or noses, but together we constitute a whole body. The stratification you should be objecting to is a stratification of holiness. We are all called to holiness, even perfection. Not many of us get very far on that.

There is a stratification in function, but that stratification doesn't require a specific polity.

chevyontheriver said:
There are examples of holiness from all sorts of people. There were before Vatican II, but more now.

I agree, and Lumen Gentium was a dramatic shift in ecclesial understanding that addressed a lot of my more serious issues, but there still remains a separation that I find myself uncomfortable with.

chevyontheriver said:
The Avignon thing was mere stupidity. And a saint, St. Catherine of Siena, called the pope home. The multiple claimants to be pope was mere politics. We have even a few people today, right now, claiming to be popes.

Sure, but the fact that the papacy has been subject to ordinary political controversies puts a damper on notions of unbroken Apostolic succession.

chevyontheriver said:
Maybe if you look at it as the community with her appointed leader in continuity. I knew a guy who thought apostolic succession meant that the dying pope had to appoint his successor to keep succession going. Nope. There is a period of time where the see is vacant. And then it gets filled. Now it's by cardinals voting, those cardinals being pastors of the various parishes of the Roman diocese. Before, sometimes it was by acclamation. Always it was by the diocese picking it's next pope because the diocese held the faith of the deceased bishop.

That raises an additional issue in the historic approaches to the appointment of bishops, but I'd rather not get into it. Suffice it to say, Apostolic succession is an article of faith and its not one that I am able to subscribe to because to me it appears to involve counterfactual beliefs or saving hyptheses.

Clare73 · 2025-07-06T11:54:39-0500

fhansen said:
We have to have a full understanding of what faith is, why it’s important, and why Abraham is said to be the father of our faith. God was immensely pleased by Abraham’s faith. It was to acknowledge God’s existence, His trustworthiness, His godhood, with Abraham’s words put into practice and made real by his willingness to act upon that faith. This was apparently quite rare back in the day, this state of faith that places man squarely into the “right place” vis a vis justice/righteousness, vis a vis God, with the creature now subjugated to and heeding his Creator as man is meant to do, and as Adam failed to do. This is a game-changer for man, in fact.

God declared Abraham righteous because…Abraham did the right thing.

1) God declared Abraham righteous (redeemed, Ge 15:6) because he believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16.)

2) The Greek definition of the word dikaiosis (justification) is its NT meaning; i.e., declaration, sentence, pronouncement of remittance of sin, sinlessness, which it itself is not righteousness, only the absence of sin.
If "justification" meant "righteousness," there would be no need for the "imputation" of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19) patterned (Ro 5:14) on the "imputation" of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17-19).

Fantine · 2025-07-06T11:53:59-0500

RDKirk said:
That's because most people are going to need to work for a living, and and yet, they're being pushed to get a bachelor's degree.

Even as a college graduate, I'm rather offended that you believe a person in a trade is necessarily uneducated, more gullible, and less critical. Some of the most gullible people I see are college graduates. That's an elitist mindset if I've ever heard of one.

I respect everyone. I learn from everyone. I am especially impressed by people who have talents I don't possess and they include most repairmen, builders, and crafters. It's an indictment on our society that most people never read a book after they graduate from school. The world of ideas is so exciting and enriching. We learn from both information and experience.

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