Hans Blaster said:

This thread has drifted so far it has merged with the *other* "morality" thread. Perhaps we should drop in all of the (likely) "True Christians" quoted in the text chains by Politico...

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm confusing what some people say in this thread with what they have said in t'other. Makes no sense in either most of the time...

eclipsenow said:

Here is what some of Australia's politicians have said about Trump.
Back in 2016:

"I know I am not the only one relieved that with every passing day, with every disgusting, demeaning comment Mr Trump makes, the possibility of him being president fades. By his own words and his own actions, he has confirmed the worst fears of millions in the United States and beyond its borders – he is entirely unsuitable to be leader of the free world."​

Mr Shorten has also described Mr Trump as "barking mad", a comment Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said was an "ill-judged remark".​

"You can imagine how Australians would feel if an American president were to describe one of our prime ministerial aspirants as barking mad," he told reporters in Brisbane.​

"You can imagine the ill-will and resentment that would create in Australia."​

Donald Trump vs the world: what world leaders have said about the rogue Republican

It's fair to say some world leaders have not exactly welcomed Republican Donald Trump's presidential candidacy.

www.sbs.com.au

Here is how former PM Malcolm Turnbull describes Trump. 5 minutes.

– The Hon Malcolm Turnbull AC, 29th Prime Minister of Australia, in conversation with Nobel Prize-winning economist Professor Joseph Stiglitz & Dr Emma Shortis, Director of International & Security Affairs at the Australia Institute.

Trump is the "ultimate narcissistic blustering bully!"

Gosh - every time I watch this I wish Malcolm had been in Labor. He's a funny storyteller - and actually believes in climate change - imagine that? (Big step for a conservative in the coal-loving Australian conservative parties.)


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Click to expand...

The libs are a ship of fools right now. None of them could hold a candle to Turnbull. A brilliant mind. He was my MP (Wentworth). I actually came close to voting for him.

perplexed said:

Trump's reputation will age like fine wine

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Well, fine wine has to be locked away in a dark cold place so I'm good with doing that to Trump.

stevevw said:

But if we see both methods (the Mean and Median) showing similar levels of precision then its sort of repeating the precision. Like I said what about the simple guage metrology where we can see the circularity when we measure around the vase and its within 0.005 inch. What then.

Just to get that level of roundness with a tiny deviation of basically a human hair or two is pointing to some sort of turning to maintain such precision. I mean 10 times out of 10 we would recognise this as evidence of turning. But for some reason its resisted on this occassion.

Click to expand...

Because what you are describing is not what they are reporting, for that the surface deviation plots are much more informative. Some of the Petrie vases differs more than mm's between the highest and lowest points on their surface. Machining tolerances are limits on spreads not medians and averages, I'll have to add in my understanding here.

stevevw said:

So if Bealls vases are better or equal to modern replicas whats the problem. No one was saying that all these vases are better than modern ones. But on par with them. As you can see the precision class are within a range and not specific. So long as they are in that range they are deemed as on par with modern machined vases.

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The Petrie vases are not as precise as modern vases or Matt Bealls vases in the precise class.

stevevw said:

Some are better, some the interior is better than modern machined vases. You have to remember these are 5,000 year old vases so theres ware and damage. But its the interiors that seem to be the best which makes sense in that they are protected. But also the plain and clear lathing or machining marks on the inside.

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You do understand that the most likely source of modern machining marks, are modern (from the 19th and 20th century) machines?

stevevw said:

You also have to remember that though theres no overlap the differences here are in microns. Its still within the modern machining levels.

Ok so whats the problem. I know that Bealls vases lack good providence. But as I said most of the best examples of vases are in private collections because they were the best. If there is say a 1,000 out there and they all have limited providence what then.

Do we exclude potentially the very best examples of these precision vases. We have to work out a way to include them. Otherwise we are skewing the evidence anyway by eliminating what may be the swaying factor that proves these vases are precise.

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Yes, we exclude them. If these precision vases actually were made 5000 years ago, we would expect to keep finding them in new digs.

stevevw said:

Well not really because by the looks of this thread there would be too much outcry from skeptics lol. You want to nullify most of that beforehand with robust evidence,

Click to expand...

I don't want to nullify anything, but without good provenance no one will ever be convinced that a vase should be taken seriously.

stevevw said:

What is the existing definition of circularity. Did not Max also do this besides Karoly and used a non existing definition of circularity. Just different non standards ie Median and Means error or deviation from the perfect circle.

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Both made mistakes, both need to go back and redo the analysis and report the radius difference between the minimum and maximum circle covering the perifery of the object. I gave you a picture from ISO 1101 in an earlier post.

stevevw said:

Yes and no. Like I said above there are literally 100s of genuine vases out there which are the very best examples to use if we want to determine the validity. So discounting them all is discounting probably the most important evidence. We have to also measure these vases and find a way to include them. If the museums can determine authenticity without full providence based on other factors then so should these vases.

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Why, if they do not have good provenance? A measurement of something you don't know where it came from or what has a happened to it is next to meaningless. If one finds an object beautiful than one should of course display it.

stevevw said:

Why, it seems that the disputes and skeptics can make their case now as being shown. It is better to sort this out before peer review lol. Thats what the tests and open source are for to allow the tests and to allow them to be challenged to sort out the evidence and then publish. No scientific hypothesis is proposed without a long testing period.

Click to expand...

If they want the input from the professionals they'll have to put it articles in journals.

GoldenBoy89 said:

What do you think of the reports about FBI agents mixed in the crowd with the protesters on Jan 6?

Click to expand...

Have they been confirmed or is that another conspiracy theory?

slaney3 said:

Paul and James on Justification

The book of James is one of the most important topics to cover when it comes to faith and works. James is believed by many people to contradict Paul, especially in the book of Romans, making the case that works are an essential component to be the evidence of our faith.

While James writes that faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead, Paul states that he who does work will not be made righteous; however, those who do not work but believe in him who justifies the ungodly, their faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

Both Paul and James become clear that they do not contradict each other but how do they agree without excluding one of these two concepts? Since both of them believe that grace comes through faith alone, works would not add to that according to James, who writes:

“You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

He presents the point that even demons believe in the existence of God, so how can works apart from faith be useless? Depending on how you interpret the context of what James says and how Abraham was justified by works, we can settle to a point with Paul. Whereas faith without works is dead only in the eyes of men, not in the eyes of God.

If that is the case, how is faith made evident according to what other parts of scripture says about the fruit of the spirit? Most people believe that the fruit of the spirit (or works) means to gradually abandon sin or, by having corresponding actions, to go along with our faith.


One of the most common reasons why people believe you must still abandon sin is told in John’s epistle: “No one who abides in him makes a practice of sinning; for whoever is born of God does not sin; you cannot keep on sinning by being in him.” Since he appeared in order to take away our transgressions, there is no sin in our new creation that’s within us, but as for our mortal body, sin still exists daily; it’s part of our natural human tendency.

So works never involve deeds of the law as evidence of faith. Whether good works can signify our faith is another matter to look at further. As for our sinful nature, which has broken the laws of God, that is what the cross was for—to replace us from dying in the flesh—by his work alone, so we can live free according to the spirit.

If Christ’s righteousness is applied to us, then how can the law itself ever negate self-righteous effort? For if you mix the law together, what grace could you receive if Christ didn’t cover it fully? By his atoning sacrifice, his death, after living a perfect life, was sufficient enough to cover the full penalty. What works can add any value to that establishment for us on earth? We were called to be like him through only one way that can grow. Therefore, we should always look to spread his word through the willingness of the holy spirit.

In free grace theology, contrary to lordship salvation (where one must submit to God), opposes that we must gradually obey the law through the process of sanctification.

We are to allow him to save us from those consequences. But in order that he will, how must we prove our belief for his word to reside in us?

No works ever lay the foundation of our faith; all works are as filthy rags, as stated in the book of Isaiah: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment” (v. 64:6).

However, those without corresponding actions may have denied him by not living according to the heart of the gospel teachings. Only by the fruit of this spirit — love, peace, joy, kindness, patience and forbearance — can faith become evident (Galatians 5:22 etc.). Those are the corresponding points to what Paul and James taught on the doctrine of justification.

Click to expand...

One of the problems with misunderstanding the difference between Paul and James is the assumption that they are talking about the same kind of faith. Certainly both Paul and James speak of the same faith in various contexts. But the context of how they are using the term determines the meaning of their usage. Example:

Compare these two statements:
Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from the works of the law."
Jam. 2:24 "You can see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

On the surface, these two statements (out of context) appear to be contradictory, if you assume that their contextual usage of the word "faith" is the same. But it's not. Consider the audience: Paul is writing to Roman gentiles, trying to encourage their faith in Christ, because of certain Judaizers who were insisting that salvation was by faith plus works of the law. Whereas James was writing to (mainly) Jews who were being influenced by Gnostic heretics who claimed that their sins would not be judged. James' point was that works of love was the deciding factor that determined if a person's faith was genuine.

So then, in Rom. 3:28, Paul's usage of "faith" meant a kind of faith wherein a person paid attention to Christ's commands, warnings, and advice. But Jam. 2:24 usage was a kind of "faith" that was a mere profession, and had no repentance from sin involved. These different usages of "faith" is often misunderstood, and is one of the dividers of denominations. To understand it clearly, it must be read in context.

In conclusion, the true Christian faith is that Jesus paid it all, and nothing is to be added to complete salvation; but it doesn't end there. One is to believe that God is healing the soul, that Jesus is the deliverer from sin. Therefore, one is to assume the indwelling Holy Spirit is giving one the power to overcome sinful habits and temptations - "this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." So repentance and righteous living becomes not only possible, but certain, since God promises it.

eclipsenow said:

Yeah - that Epstein thing married to QANON what about 25% of Americans now seem to believe - it's the conspiracy theory that Trump played to during the campaign. But then someone whispered to him what was IN those files - and is he going to release them? You bet not! So he's annoyed the foaming-at-the-mouth, rifle going into a Pizza shop internet tinfoil hat types.

As for his being an NPD demagogue? That's not a conspiracy theory. That's just a fact. He just is. The way he speaks and appeals to a voter base with baser instincts, and his antics around "Eating the dogs", "Poisoning the blood", "Sending their rapists and murderers" (to tarnish a whole massive minority that is MORE law abiding than the average American born citizen) - that's demagogue 101 according to sociologist text books.

Here's the wiki on Democratic backsliding - just tick these off in your head as you read them?

• Free and fair elections are degraded;[20]
• Liberal rights of freedom of speech, press[22] and association decline, impairing the ability of the political opposition to challenge the government, hold it to account, and propose alternatives to the current regime;[20][22]
• The rule of law (i.e., judicial and bureaucratic restraints on the government) is weakened,[20] such as when the independence of the judiciary is threatened, or when civil service tenure protections are weakened or eliminated.[23]
• An over-emphasis on national security as response to acts of terrorism or perceived antagonists.[23]
• Democratic backsliding - Wikipedia

Trump’s campaigning and government style reek of authoritarian strategies. His rhetoric uses the tricks of the fascists of the 20th century:

CONFIRMATION BIAS and flattery of certain parts of the population by playing the saviour and strongman that will fix the country’s woes.

STRONG MAN language: - tapping into the vulnerable and confused workers desire for answers - their wish for a super-hero like figure to act out THEIR OWN frustration on the world! “I will be your vengeance.” Etc. Psychologically it’s called Identification with the aggressor.

THE BLAME GAME / SPLITTING / OTHERING: Finding a group to blame for all society’s ills. Immigrants took your jobs, radical socialist left assassinates everyone (when the statistics show the right does this 5 times more!) “They’re eating the dogs”, etc.

PROPOGANDA LORDS: Try to control information. Banning comedians, intellectuals from discussing certain things, attacks on universities, attacking the free press. Sound familiar?

These are unpacked on this excellent page:-

https://knowledge.insead.edu/leadership-organisations/fighting-against-dictatorship

Click to expand...

You are really hooked on the Epstein conspiracy angle aren't you.

BPPLEE said:

He’s good at living rent free in your heads. He’s dead and you’re still bashing him

Click to expand...

Well, the thread is about him. If people post then the thread is highlighted and I'll check in. If they've said something with which I disagree then I'll respond (it's what a forum is for).

And my opinion of him was very low a long time before he was killed. That he was shot was a tragedy, but it didn't change that opinion.

Here is what some of Australia's politicians have said about Trump.
Back in 2016:



Here is how former PM Malcolm Turnbull describes Trump. 5 minutes.

– The Hon Malcolm Turnbull AC, 29th Prime Minister of Australia, in conversation with Nobel Prize-winning economist Professor Joseph Stiglitz & Dr Emma Shortis, Director of International & Security Affairs at the Australia Institute.

Trump is the "ultimate narcissistic blustering bully!"

Gosh - every time I watch this I wish Malcolm had been in Labor. He's a funny storyteller - and actually believes in climate change - imagine that? (Big step for a conservative in the coal-loving Australian conservative parties.)


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Always in His Presence said:

Are you missing pages or not?

Click to expand...

Canon simply refers to what is read in Church during the Liturgy. Although the deutercanonical books are not read within the context of the Liturgy, they are still considered valuable.

Aryeh Jay said:

Oh come on, he was the opening speaker for CPAC in 2022. That's hardly dictator quality.

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Oh how he wants to be loved as much as Putin - who always gets elected!

Bradskii said:

'Mate, that's not debate. That's over rehearsed, soap box, lowest common denominator, low quality, mundane rhetoric'

'Ah, but's he's very good at it'.

Well...OK then.

Click to expand...

He’s good at living rent free in your heads. He’s dead and you’re still bashing him

rjs330 said:

Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me.

Click to expand...

Yeah - that Epstein thing married to QANON what about 25% of Americans now seem to believe - it's the conspiracy theory that Trump played to during the campaign. But then someone whispered to him what was IN those files - and is he going to release them? You bet not! So he's annoyed the foaming-at-the-mouth, rifle going into a Pizza shop internet tinfoil hat types.

As for his being an NPD demagogue? That's not a conspiracy theory. That's just a fact. He just is. The way he speaks and appeals to a voter base with baser instincts, and his antics around "Eating the dogs", "Poisoning the blood", "Sending their rapists and murderers" (to tarnish a whole massive minority that is MORE law abiding than the average American born citizen) - that's demagogue 101 according to sociologist text books.

Here's the wiki on Democratic backsliding - just tick these off in your head as you read them?

• Free and fair elections are degraded;[20]
• Liberal rights of freedom of speech, press[22] and association decline, impairing the ability of the political opposition to challenge the government, hold it to account, and propose alternatives to the current regime;[20][22]
• The rule of law (i.e., judicial and bureaucratic restraints on the government) is weakened,[20] such as when the independence of the judiciary is threatened, or when civil service tenure protections are weakened or eliminated.[23]
• An over-emphasis on national security as response to acts of terrorism or perceived antagonists.[23]
• Democratic backsliding - Wikipedia

Trump’s campaigning and government style reek of authoritarian strategies. His rhetoric uses the tricks of the fascists of the 20th century:

CONFIRMATION BIAS and flattery of certain parts of the population by playing the saviour and strongman that will fix the country’s woes.

STRONG MAN language: - tapping into the vulnerable and confused workers desire for answers - their wish for a super-hero like figure to act out THEIR OWN frustration on the world! “I will be your vengeance.” Etc. Psychologically it’s called Identification with the aggressor.

THE BLAME GAME / SPLITTING / OTHERING: Finding a group to blame for all society’s ills. Immigrants took your jobs, radical socialist left assassinates everyone (when the statistics show the right does this 5 times more!) “They’re eating the dogs”, etc.

PROPOGANDA LORDS: Try to control information. Banning comedians, intellectuals from discussing certain things, attacks on universities, attacking the free press. Sound familiar?

These are unpacked on this excellent page:-

https://knowledge.insead.edu/leadership-organisations/fighting-against-dictatorship

Valletta said:

Tech mogul and former DOGE chief Elon Musk expressed his disgust with the lenient sentence in an X post. “This was a racist verdict by a racist judge,” Musk said of Judge Kendra Briggs, who is black. “The simple test to apply is if the races has been reversed, the White kids would be in prison. Equal justice for all!”

NEW: Teens Who Savagely Attacked Well-Known DOGE Staffer Avoid Jail Time

Two teenagers who participated in the viscous group assault on former Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) staffer Edward “Big Balls” Coristine avoided jail time after pleading guilty to simple assault at a Washington D.C. court. The two teens, a boy and a girl from Hyattsville, Maryland...

trendingpoliticsnews.com

Not a surprise, seems pretty typical for D.C.

Click to expand...

I’m not seeing the race angle here. I thought the complaint was cities like DC were soft on all crime.

What evidence is there this judge has in the past issued harsher sentences against white defendants?

Wealthy South African has opinions about race.

Maybe he should just stick to making cars that blow up.

Servus said:

It's real. But the level of fearmongering over it is unwarranted.

Click to expand...

That's an assertion - based on what evidence?

The first head of the IPCC was a Christian. There are Christian climatologists.

EG: Dr Katherine Hayhoe is an amazing example of a Christian excelling in science and environmental care. Many “Greenie crusaders” think she is awesome. The UN gave her one of their highest awards - “United Nations Champion of the Earth!” Server Busy

She says there are solid biblical reasons for Christians to get stuck into climate activism even as a Christian longs for the new world. (One day. We don’t know when.) As a result, we have a responsibility to hand over the world to our kids better than the way we inherited it. Indeed - this is standard Reformation thinking - and goes back to John Calvin.

This is a great episode of what is one of the best Christian podcasts on the planet.
The host is Australian Dr John Dickson - who now lives in Wheaton College USA.
I wish more American Christians would listen to this podcast - and especially this episode.
Good Earth

Servus said:

I'm sure it does and eventually they'll be replaced by the Green Industry dictators.

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If Russia is still a dictatorship after their oil and gas are gone - maybe. But that's no reflection on wind and solar energy itself.

However, the 'black gold' has propped up many what I would consider to be illegitimate forms of government, start many wars, and oppress many people.

Servus said:

Most of those people are probably on death's doorstep out of the 67 million who die per year.

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Absolutely incorrect. Yes - it's tricky.
But the epidemiological studies try to eliminate for the noise.
It's what medicine and science are all about.

Servus said:

Why do you jump to conclusions? Like why do hate vanilla ice cream? Why do you love pond scum? See what I mean?

Click to expand...

No - I do not. You are avoiding valid questions about the POLLUTING, CORRUPTING, and VANISHING nature of fossil fuels. Let's run those 3 by renewables:-

POLLUTING? Where renewables do have some environmental footprint as they are mined, at least the air will be vastly cleaner.

CORRUPTING? Wind and solar operate best by Overbuilding them and connecting them up across vast continent-wide super-grids, which will encourage co-operation between nations.

VANISHING: They're renewable. They're not vanishing.

Servus said:

Like I already said, as a matter of progress the Green Industry will eventually replace a lot of things.

Click to expand...

Excellent - I totally agree!

Servus said:

The issue is all of the unwarranted fearmongering in the meantime.

Click to expand...

You assert and assert. But what data have you contributed?

Every time I discuss this with someone from MAGA who vaguely hedges their bets by asserting "Oh it's real - except it's not - they're exaggerating" - they make vague assertions, get tired, and run away.

Are you humble enough to ask yourself, what if you're wrong? What if peer-reviewed science in this case shows a real and present danger RIGHT NOW to the world, one that is gradually snowballing into something even more potentially harmful for our children, and disastrous for our grandchildren?

Servus said:

It makes people frantic to the point where they become totally immersed in Climate Panic. That's not healthy.

Click to expand...

Neither is suffocating to death with pollution particulate late stage emphysema, or being a Ukrainian killed by Russian drones and missiles and tanks and armies all funded by gas and oil, or being an African farmer starving to death because the rains failed, because the measurable extra energy in the atmosphere moved the rainfall away from his country.

Climate change IS tricky. The raw principles are quite basic - we KNOW CO2 and methane and other gases trap heat, and by how much. But where that heat goes and what it is going to do? That's tricky, and deals with the vastly complex interactions between 2 major chaotic systems - the oceans and atmosphere!

But huge, broad, general patterns are emerging - and they are NOT good!

But there are still surprises. Sometimes it seems, in little corners of the world, there are areas where human models are wrong! The oceans off the East coast of Australia surprised the climatologists recently. There's something tricky going on with the water circulation and behaviour down in Antarctica at the moment.

In other words - the climate experts ARE telling us when they don't know certain things or were caught off guard by new trends! If you're listening. If you are open to paying attention to what they say.

Generally, though? Climate change IS a nightmare. We are changing the chemical composition of the atmosphere by doubling one of its key heat trapping gases - a gas that lasts hundreds to thousands of years.

How is that in any way a "conservative" action?

Hans Blaster said:

Not sure what emotional responses have to do with reasoned evaluation of morals or claims of absolutist moral authority.

Click to expand...

You're right. Absolutely nothing at all. I thought it didn't need to be explained that we're not talking about emotional responses to circumstances or knee jerk fight-or-flight reactions. This is meant to be about reasonable, considered approaches as to how we, individually, decide what is morally acceptable and what isn't.

Valletta said:

Tech mogul and former DOGE chief Elon Musk expressed his disgust with the lenient sentence in an X post. “This was a racist verdict by a racist judge,” Musk said of Judge Kendra Briggs, who is black. “The simple test to apply is if the races has been reversed, the White kids would be in prison. Equal justice for all!”

NEW: Teens Who Savagely Attacked Well-Known DOGE Staffer Avoid Jail Time

Two teenagers who participated in the viscous group assault on former Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) staffer Edward “Big Balls” Coristine avoided jail time after pleading guilty to simple assault at a Washington D.C. court. The two teens, a boy and a girl from Hyattsville, Maryland...

trendingpoliticsnews.com

Not a surprise, seems pretty typical for D.C.

Click to expand...

Musk certainly showed his racist side. Being 15 makes a big difference but it does seem rather lenient.

There are two Israel's

The First is the physical descendants of Jacob by blood - sometimes a Nation, sometimes not.

The Second is the the spiritual descendants of Abraham 'The Father of all who have faith' which includes the Body of Christ and all believers back to Adam, saved by the Blood of the Cross.

As Paul said regarding the Jews "they are not all Israel who are Israel."

Accidental double post

Xeno.of.athens said:

The Catholic Church regards the Orthodox canon of Scripture with deep respect, acknowledging its ancient roots, liturgical richness, and fidelity to apostolic tradition. While the Catholic canon was definitively affirmed at the Council of Trent and includes certain deuterocanonical books not universally recognised in the same way by all Orthodox Churches, the Catholic Church appreciates the shared reverence for the inspired texts and the profound spiritual heritage preserved in the Orthodox biblical tradition. This mutual esteem fosters ecumenical dialogue and highlights the common theological foundation that both Churches uphold in their veneration of the Word of God.

Click to expand...

Are you missing pages or not?

prodromos said:

To which I pointed out the the Patriarch of Alexandria is also called "Pope", and has been for longer than the Patriarch of Rome, so the expression, "solely reserved for the Bishop of Rome" was inaccurate as the title was also being used in Alexandria prior to the schism. One can argue that since the schism, within the Catholic Church it is solely reserved for the Bishop of Rome, but that isn't what was claimed. That is all I was pointing out. I was not claiming that Alexandria also has a "papacy".

And that should have been the end of it, but some people like to pick fights.

No one else in the Church claims the title in either the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Oriental Orthodox Church, however, both the Coptic and the Greek Patriarchs of Alexandria are termed "Pope" in their respective Churches.

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Thank you for the clarification.

d taylor said:

Plus the quarantining of the astronauts, because they may have unknown pathogens that could have been brought back from the Moon.

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Tardigrades can survive in the vacuum of space, and they are much more complex organisms than bacteria and viruses, so it was not an unreasonable precaution.