New Posts

Clare73 · 2025-07-11T11:56:15-0500

Michie said:
New Testament scholar N.T. Wright recently pushed back on the assumption that Jesus and the apostle Paul expected the world to end within a generation, saying their primary focus was the coming destruction of Jerusalem, not the final return of Christ.
“I think that Paul was aware, like all early Christians, because Jesus had said so, that Jerusalem would be destroyed within a generation of Jesus’ own time,” Wright said during a recent episode of his “Ask N.T. Wright Anything” podcast.
“That’s a major theme in Matthew, Mark and Luke. It’s hinted at elsewhere. And I think it’s hinted at, for instance, in the Thessalonian correspondence in Paul and also in First Corinthians Seven, when he talks about the appointed time being constrained.”

Jesus said the kingdom
has come (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20),
is invisible, within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he rules and reigns.

The Messianic kingdom of time is now (Dan 2:44,* Eph 2:6, 1 Pe 2:5, 9)
we are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms now (Eph 2:6).
The parables of Jesus consistently portray his kingdom as spiritual (of heaven) and
as here and now (Mt 13:24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 18:23, 20:1, Mk 4:26).

The future kingdom is the eternal kingdom, in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteosness (2 Pe 3:13, Mt 5:5, 22:2, 25:1, Ro 4:13, Isa 66:17ff, 66:22, Rev 21:1-4, no death).
But the kingdom of time is now,, for we are now reigning with Christ (Eph 2:6) in his kingdom (Lk 22:69, Eph 1:19-22, Mk 14:62, 16:19, Ro 8:34, 1 Co 15:25, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 1012-13, 12;2, 1 Pe 3:22, Rev 1:6, Ps 2:6 w/Heb 12:22

Goonie · 2025-07-11T11:50:16-0500

White House Photoshops Trump Onto ‘Superman’ Poster, Touts the ‘American Way’ Amid MAGA Outrage Over James Gunn’s ‘Immigrant’ Comment

The White House released a photoshopped "Superman" poster in which Donald Trump is the Man of Steel as MAGA revolts against James Gunn's movie.

variety.com

Deport Him!! Came to earth and the USA illegally, blatant criminal!!

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-07-11T11:49:15-0500

Pretty sad.

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-07-11T11:48:59-0500

Clare73 said:
The three estates are by/under the authority of the people, the fourth "estate" is not.

The people decide the governing authority of the three estates, there is no authority of the fourth estate, which the people are legally free to reject.

In Britain that was so, or at least it appeared to be in 1771.

ArmyMatt · 2025-07-11T11:47:28-0500

Laurena said:
You support Democrats.
Such a prideful sin to deny evidence in favor of your feelings and desire to feel more moral than others.

Evidence > Feelings.
You'll be put in your place on Judgement Day, liberal.View attachment 367316 View attachment 367317

what? your post has nothing to do with this thread? what evidence am I denying?

and I really don’t support Democrats. I don’t really support Republicans either for that matter.

Canuckster · 2025-07-11T11:40:59-0500

No way Trump liked what he saw on July 7, where he saw Premier of Ontario Doug Ford with Danielle Smith, Premier of Alberta, celebrating the signing of an inter-provincial energy, infrastructure and trade deal to make Canada more independent of the US and, for the first time, removing inter-provincial trade barriers and opening up their resources to overseas markets. Trump saw Doug Ford blaming him by saying “There’s one person that’s causing the problem right now and that’s president Trump”.

So Ford is saying that the problem that Trump is causing right now is forcing Canada to become more independent and learn how to trade with each other and sell to overseas markets while, in the same breath, he’s celebrating the signing of an agreement, also caused by Trump, that will make Canada more independent, learn how to trade with each other and sell to overseas markets, all of which is something they’ve should have done decades ago but their globalists’ controlled provincial and federal governments did not permit them to do so and forced them to be dependent primarily upon trade with the US.

I’ve said this on this forum from the beginning:

“I have the impression that fentanyl & trade imbalances are just a cover being used for much deeper issues Trump has with Canada and their weak globalist controlled leadership that he believes is a threat to US national security.”

The globalists’ agenda is to take down western civilization (especially Canada and the US) through increased taxes, increased regulation, phony environmentalism, increased borrowing, increased debt, national bankruptcy, forfeiture of all national assets, and then everything rented back to a reduced, traumatized, enslaved and begging population.

Trump is thwarting those plans. In other words, Canada can be taken down by the globalists into slavery where they’ll “own nothing and be happy”, or they can be taken down by America into freedom where they’ll be more wealthy than they’ve ever been before. My choice is obvious.

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Rose_bud · 2025-07-11T11:39:08-0500

Fervent said:
I suppose my contention isn't with your stated approach, but more of how I see the presentation in commentaries and exegetical textbooks lending to a formulaic understanding as if interpretation is just about getting the formula right.

I can see how that is especially given the value in pedagogical contexts. But I also prefer to engage with commentaries after forming my own thoughts, as it enables a more meaningful and critical interaction. It allows me to evaluate others insights more discerningly, and to appreciate where our perspectives converge and diverge and why.

Fervent said:
One of the most enlightening books for me on the book of Romans was a book called Reading Romans Backwards and in a lot of ways that book indirectly opened my eyes to how easy it is to get caught up in our own presuppositions if we approach the interpretative task too mechanically.

I haven't read, this one by Scott McKnight, and will add to the list. But looking at the preview it seems he prefers reading the book from the application prior to the more doctrinal passages. An interesting approach.

Presuppositions can be helpful, but yes important to be aware of them, as well as our biases.

Fervent said:
Audience can be more important for narrative than it is for didactic literature, especially since understanding the audience exposes what sorts of tropes and common agreements exist in the narrative. So even holding that genre dictates what questions to ask prior to engagement with the text can lead to imposed understandings.

I was thinking more the OT narratives in the general sense and, that the original audience is known-Israel, their stories, their history. I understand your concern about beginning with genre and reading it in, but I think knowing the genre can equally help to uncover the intended meaning and avoid misinterpretation. More than anything it's a lot more easier to identify as a whole and on first inspection.

Fervent said:
Possibly, but it's important to the question of audience because if it was pre then there's no reason to expect that there was any consciousness of a Gentile Christian at all.

Yes, that does support that post is more plausible.

Fervent said:
Yes, though even then people seem intent on arguing rather than engaging in discussion that edifies both parties.

There is always hope. :prayer:

Fervent said:
Perhaps that is a bit of an unfair characterization, but technical rigor can only take us so far in reconstructing history and we only have so much extant documentation so a lot of it boils down to at least partially speculative arguments. Though at the very least, commitment to an exegetical process is a major improvement on those who insist that their reading of the English is the "plain" meaning of Scripture.

Agreed.

Nithavela · 2025-07-11T11:38:30-0500

At least he didn't order the CIA to assasinate the current president and install Bolsonaro as dictator.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-11T11:37:15-0500

RDKirk said:
The point of the Matthew passage is that those people are depending on their own works, which they claimed were in Jesus' name, to obligate Jesus to save them.

This is precisely what Paul was speaking of in Romans 4:4,5.

That's not repentance, that's an expectation of payment for work.

No that’s not the message of the passage at all. Jesus tells them exactly why He condemns them, because of their lawlessness. They did not hear His words and act on them. He just got thru explaining how you can identify a person my their actions, hence you can identify a tree by its fruits. Then He goes on the explain the importance of hearing His words and acting on them. He never says a single word about seeking justification by works throughout the entire sermon.

RocksInMyHead · 2025-07-11T11:37:05-0500

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
Why do some liberals keep repeating that most Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas? They won the election by security the most vote. election has consequences.

When you try to use an election from 20 years ago to justify current actions, it merits mention. This is a chart of the age distribution of the population in Gaza (from 2020). Everyone under the black line had literally zero say in the last election results, and everyone above the green line would be eligible to vote today:

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
Those complaining about Hamas not allowing Palestinian elections for the past 20 years should consider where international actors like the UN or EU have been during this time. Why hasn’t there been pressure on Hamas to step down if it doesn't represent Palestinians?

Irrelevant to the point. This isn't "complaining" about how Hamas hasn't allowed elections - it's pointing out that 20-year-old electoral results are not a valid proxy for the feelings of the Palestinian people. Especially when post-election polling showed that the primary motivation behind them voting for Hamas was their anti-corruption platform; most voters (65-75%) disagreed with their stance on Israel and desired a two-state solution to the conflict (Source 1; Source 2).

Postvieww · 2025-07-11T11:35:00-0500

GoldenBoy89 said:
Aren’t y’all all about law and order?

If by “y’all” you mean common sense, clear thinking, constitution honoring conservatives, then yes we’all are about law and order.

Say it aint so · 2025-07-11T11:31:56-0500

essentialsaltes said:
Maybe not such a great idea after all. Who knew?

Trump administration scraps plan to abolish FEMA, Washington Post reports
U.S. President Donald Trump's administration has backed away from abolishing the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Washington Post reported on Friday, ahead of the president's visit to flood-hit Texas.

No official action was being taken to wind down FEMA, and changes in the agency would probably amount to a "rebranding" that would emphasize state leaders' roles in disaster response, the Washington Post reported, citing a senior White House official.

The Texas floods, the first major deadly disaster since Trump took office in January vowing to gut or abolish FEMA, were a stark reminder of the extent to which states lean on the agency during a crisis.

Oh no. They'll go through the motions and once this story dies down and the over 100 still missing and presumed dead of found, kill FEMA will be back on. Now if this event was in California, there would be no temporary reverse.

A New Dawn · 2025-07-11T11:27:37-0500

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
I am not defending Biden administration,

If Republicans believed the Biden administration was a shadow government, the GOP in the House would have been obligated to impeach President Biden.

The GOP did not act on "Biden shadow government." Instead, voters removed Democrats from power and gave control of the White House, Senate, and House to the GOP.

I hope American voters make a similar decision regarding the GOP in the upcoming midterms and in 2028. Supporters of dictatorial actions should enjoy it while it lasts.

I am not interested in speaking about Biden. I am pointing out that the Democrats have violated “democratic practices” way more than the right has and has little room to speak about who gets to define that phrase.

And please do not spread lies about who was responsible for Biden and his shadow government. We have already been through this and you have been proved wrong in every way.

Hazelelponi · 2025-07-11T11:25:50-0500

Fervent said:
It's funny how different people respond to different emphases, as the primary emphasis I took away from hearing Calvinist messaging growing up was how totally worthless I was with its severe focus on human sinfulness. And the rational/logical structuring made it difficult to see my way out of the trap. All I was left with was the question of if I were as bad as they said I was, how could God ever love me?

That's the miracle. Because we are as bad as all that and He chose us in Him anyway. All creation is created for His Glory and He has declared choosing the weakest and most frail to magnify His love all the more.

Someone said something about Calvinists which led me to write this the other day on a different forum which I will share with you Quoting:

Nothing like reducing Calvinism to a caricature.

Why does God need to have nothing to do with our salvation in order for the relationship to be considered genuine? That mindset makes no sense.

My relationship with my earthly father wasn’t any less real or loving because I didn’t choose it. I didn’t agree to it, didn’t sign up for it—I was born into it because he desired a child. I grew up under his authority, followed rules I didn’t always understand (“Because I said so,” remember that?), and yet I adored him. I was his little girl.

Was that not a real, genuine, deeply loving relationship?

God says, “I will be a Father to you” and “I will take you as My bride.” These are relationships God Himself initiates—not ones that depend on us giving prior consent. Whether in Scripture or in history, fathers and bridegrooms have not typically waited for a child or a bride to negotiate terms before acting in love. These relationships are not based on mutual autonomy, but on covenantal roles.

In both roles—child and bride—we are chosen, loved, and called into something bigger than ourselves. And our response is to learn how to walk faithfully in the role He’s given: a daughter who honors her Father, and a bride who delights in pleasing her Bridegroom.

We don’t call these earthly roles invalid just because we didn’t initiate them. In fact, they are often the deepest bonds of love precisely because they were chosen for us by someone who loved us first.

So how is it that these real-life examples—being born to a father, being chosen as a bride—are dismissed when it comes to our relationship with God?

What makes a relationship genuine? Love, commitment, sacrifice—and yes, even authority rightly expressed. The God who chooses us, who adopts us, who redeems us through no merit of our own, is not violating our personhood—He is loving us more deeply than we could ever deserve.

Thought it might help you to read those words. It's adoption, we come as needy as a street urchin to a wealthy home, and we are adopted in love, drawn by a Father who loves us, as undeserving as we are. We owe everything for what He has given.

A Question for the Calvinist

If not everyone is predestined and no everyone has that ability for faith or belief , Why? Any guesses as to why God would not want every one to have the faith in Jesus that we do? Short answer: God's glorify is the ultimate purpose of God Longer answers: It would mean God's knowledge is...

christcentered.community.forum

Pommer · 2025-07-11T11:20:30-0500

ozso said:
Look it up in the news, it's there.

Which Gateway Pundit article is it?

Light of the East · 2025-07-11T11:12:11-0500

Hoping2 said:
It sure can be easy, but with the gift of the Holy Ghost, that is not going to happen.

That's quite funny because every person who would disagree with you would appeal to the Holy Spirit as leading them. I find it humorous, in a very sad way, to see how many different Protestant denominations and/or people all claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them into all truth, and yet they don't agree on many issues. Is the Holy Spirit that schizophrenic, or are they deceived? I vote for the latter.

Hoping2 said:
So Paul was deluding us with his hopes in 1 Cor 15:34 ?
Was Jesus deceived when He commanded..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
Was Peter deceived when he wrote..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Was John deceived when he wrote..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)
And...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

It is cults who take verses out of context and make a whole religion out of what they believe from those verses.

If we were to never sin again, there would be no need for priests and the Sacrament of Confession.

Hoping2 said:
The Church by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:21), has no fasting season.

This shows that you have no idea what the Church is, its history, or where it is to be found. Here is some information for you:
Fasting in the Orthodox Church has deep historical roots, stemming from Jewish traditions and further shaped by early Christian ascetics and the Church's developing liturgical structure. It is a practice of abstaining from certain foods and sometimes other activities for spiritual reasons, primarily to cultivate closer communion with God, practice self-discipline, and prepare for major feasts.

Here's a more detailed look at the history:
1. Jewish Roots and Early Christian Practice:

The Old Testament provides numerous examples of fasting, both individual and communal, often associated with mourning, repentance, and times of need.
Jesus himself fasted for forty days in the desert, and he taught his disciples about fasting, emphasizing sincerity and humility. (NOTE: We are called to be like Jesus, to emulate Him in our lives as much as possible as we grow into His likeness. Fasting is part of that.)
Early Christians adopted the practice, with the Didache (a first-century text) mentioning fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays, a practice that continues in the Orthodox Church. (The Orthodox Church is the Church. All other denominations and sects are outside the Church which Jesus established upon the Apostles. Do you remember what Jesus said in regard to His Body, the Church? He said that if a man will not hear the Church, let him be as a pagan to you.)
Wednesday was chosen to commemorate Judas's betrayal, and Friday to commemorate the crucifixion.

2. Development of Fasting Periods:

Over time, the Church formalized fasting periods, such as Great Lent (before Pascha/Easter), the Nativity Fast (Advent), the Apostles' Fast, and the Dormition Fast.
These periods, often coinciding with significant events or feasts, provide structured times for spiritual preparation and growth.
Great Lent, the most prominent of these, is a 40-day fast (plus Holy Week) preceding Pascha, mirroring Christ's time in the wilderness.
The length and intensity of fasting vary depending on the season and the specific fast.

3. Ascetic Influence and Monastic Practices:

Ascetics, particularly the Desert Fathers, played a significant role in shaping fasting practices.
For them, fasting was not just about food but a means of subduing passions, purifying the soul, and drawing closer to God.
Monastic traditions further developed fasting rules and practices, which eventually influenced the wider Church.

4. Key Aspects of Orthodox Fasting:

Food Restrictions:
Typically, Orthodox fasting involves abstaining from meat, dairy products, and (in some cases) fish and olive oil.
Spiritual Discipline:
Fasting is seen as a way to cultivate self-control, humility, and a deeper connection with God.
Preparation for Feasts:
Fasting is a way to prepare both physically and spiritually for major feasts, particularly Pascha.
Community Practice:
Fasting is often done as a community, fostering mutual support and shared spiritual growth.

Hoping2 said:
Show any place where Jesus or His apostles commanded all night prayer vigils.

As stated before, Christ is our pattern. He went and prayed all night. If we are called to such a life, we should do it.

Hoping2 said:
Are all those things what you do ?

No. I try to do them. I fail, I confess, and I continue to try. Some of them I am not called to do, such as the monastic life, all-night prayer vigils, and extreme fasting. I attempt the regular fasts of the Church.

Hoping2 said:
Don't you realize that you are just condemning yourself ?

Obeying the dictates of the Church which Christ gave to the apostles is hardly a way to condemn one's self. Obedience is one of the primary ways in which we show love to Christ, and obeying His Church is prime.

Hoping2 said:
I thank God He never commanded such things of men.

God speaks through His Church. He does not speak outside the Church, hence, He has never given mankind things such as Calvinism, the Baptist doctrines, or any of the thousands of other man-made sects and religions that call themselves Christian. The fullness of the Christian faith is found in obedience to Christ through His Church and the authority which He vested in the leaders of the Church.

Hoping2 said:
His commands are fulfilled in this...Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Anything else is just the doctrines of men.

You love God by obeying His Church and His commandments. Love is not feeling. It is action. Doing the works which He gives to us show Him our love for Him. The same is true for men. Love acts in ways that show love to others - feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, praying for the dead. Love is not a feeling nor good thoughts. Love works.

Hoping2 said:
I've never heard of Him. But then again, the saint are not desirous of vain glory.What would he say to your efforts to verify your POV of a church that does not teach it is possible to live without sin ?

St. Paisios's teachings on sin are rooted in the Orthodox Christian tradition and emphasize the importance of repentance, prayer, and humility in overcoming sin and finding healing in God's love. You should watch this video about him.

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Say it aint so · 2025-07-11T11:11:29-0500

ralliann said:
I can see what they have done so far.

If looking, you will see judges of every stripe nominated from every president since Reagan, and including judges nominated by the current president all coming to the same conclusions.

Landon Caeli · 2025-07-11T11:07:52-0500

essentialsaltes said:
Alan Dershowitz says he knows Epstein client list names: ‘But I’m bound by confidentiality’
“I know the names of the individuals. I know why they’re being suppressed. I know who’s suppressing them,” Dershowitz said during an appearance on “The Sean Spicer Show.”

“But I’m bound by confidentiality from a judge and cases, and I can’t disclose what I know,” he added, noting at one point he was falsely named as a client.

“I know the names of people whose files are being suppressed in order to protect them, and that’s wrong,” he told Sean Spicer on Thursday.

Misleading headline.. Dershowitz said he's seen "the names of [some of] the individuals" but never mentioned a "list" as the title states.

...So Ashleigh Fields, from The Hill is a liar. But we all know the media are liars.

d taylor · 2025-07-11T11:05:16-0500

bling said:
You say: "Jesus did not have the same ability to succumb to sins temptation", so how could Jesus be tempted in every way as we are tempted?
The idea is not to give Jesus certain powers over sin, we cannot have, making it God's fault for our sinning, since God did not provide those powers to us, but show even though Christ could, He did not, just as we could, but did because we lack His Love.
What does it matter where the "knowledge of Good and Evil" came from, since it is being equated in your definition with a sinful nature?
I am saying our knowledge changed with Adam and Eve's eating the fruit, but our "nature" remained the same. "Knowledge", itself is not bad, since we agree Christ had that same knowledge and did not sin. It is wrong to blame our sins on "Knowledge" and call it our nature.

-

Adam was naked before the fall and after. Why was he only ashamed and afraid after he ate of the fruit because he made a covering for his nakedness.

A New Dawn · 2025-07-11T11:03:05-0500

NxNW said:
I never said that.

Your trying to put words in my mouth is ridiculous.

I'm still waiting for an example that was a result of protesters. You keep trying to change the subject.

This lack of ability to understand what goes on in hospitals on an daily basis and you contradicting the statement the patient made in the article based on your biased viewpoint is evidence you are not here for a serious discussion.

Gnarwhal · 2025-07-11T10:53:55-0500

JimR-OCDS said:
Centering Prayer was originally called Quiet Prayer, or Prayer of Quiet. It is in the 1917 version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church;

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Prayer of Quiet

A degree of contemplation in which the soul experiences an extraordinary peace and rest

www.newadvent.org

The name was changed after Fr Keating and Fr Pennington gave a retreat to religious. The text of
"The Living Flame of Love" by St John of the Cross was used. In the text the word, "center," was often
used and the discussions around it at the retreat spoke of "centering prayer." As a result, the term, Quiet
Prayer, started to be called, "Centering Prayer."

St Teresa of Avila wrote of "interior prayer" often and as a Discalced Carmelite myself, it was obvious
to me that "centering prayer," and "interior prayer," were the same thing. The OCD spiritual assistant
to my OCDS croup, confirmed it when I asked him about "centering prayer."

"Into The Silent Land," by Fr Martin Laird is a good read on "contemplative prayer."

Since you're well armed with articles and the history of the practice, I assume you've read Fr John Dreher's 1997 article objecting to the practice called The Dangers of Centering Prayer? He goes into the background of the Trappist monastery where the practice originated, noting that they hosted speakers and retreat leaders from various eastern faiths quite often which seemed to have a strong influence the way it did over Thomas Merton.

I find I agree with Fr Dreher if for no other reason than to err on the side of caution.

RileyG · 2025-07-11T10:50:16-0500

Welcome!

LoricaLady · 2025-07-11T10:50:02-0500

Jul. 10, 2025 | Iraq
Christian Family Flees Threats
[53] prayers in [11] nations have been posted for Qasim and Zaynab.

When Qasim and his wife, Zaynab, became followers of Christ in 2016, their Shiite Muslim family immediately rejected them and threatened their lives. Zaynab's brother beat her and told her to leave her "infidel" husband. Eventually, the couple and their young children fled Iraq, but Zaynab's brother continues to harass them over the phone, saying he will kill them if he finds them. Islamists seeking their location attacked Qasim's father and one of his younger brothers, sending him to a hospital with broken legs and in a life-threatening coma. Read More.
Jul. 10, 2025 | Ethiopia
Rejected Convert Receives His Own Bible
[36] prayers in [5] nations have been posted for Muse.

A Christian convert from Islam rejected by his family was encouraged by receiving a copy of God's Word. Muse was raised in a Muslim fundamentalist religious family and came to faith in Christ through the testimony of a missionary working in his region of Ethiopia. Muse's eldest brother was a respected Islamic scholar, and when he learned that Muse had converted to Christianity, he threatened him to renounce his new faith. When Muse would not, he was evicted from the family home and forced to drop out of school, moving to a nearby town where he took on daily labor to support himself. Read More.
Jul. 10, 2025 | Sierra Leone
Occultists Pressure Pastors and Churches
[37] prayers in [8] nations have been posted for Sierra Leone Christians.

Secret occult societies in Sierra Leone regularly threaten pastors and churches. "We came for fellowship, and we were attacked right at the church," said Pastor Joshua Ramine. The societies are groups that practice occult rituals, including bodily mutilation and allegedly even the ritualistic killing of humans to appease spirits. The groups have been known to surround churches with hundreds of people to harass and intimidate Christians and stop their worship services. "They shouted while we were singing," Joshua said. "But I said, ‘No, let's continue singing.' Read More.

The Liturgist · 2025-07-11T10:48:22-0500

Fervent said:
I am not the subject of this thread,

That’s true, and I appreciate your desire to avoid the excesses that I urge members to avoid. That being said, some debate and criticism is legitimate, although one could also say it is strictly speaking off-topic for this thread, which you have observed, and which I again greatly appreciate.

I do also appreciate the very friendly manner in which you and @chevyontheriver have engaged in this thread, which in my view exemplifies how we should try to interact in this manner; I am not a fan of the Wesleyan remark of “agreeing to disagree” as I see it as being Pietistic and anti-doctrinal, representing the normalization of schism or the normalization of the minimization of doctrine (and Wesley, for all his good, did experience pietist influences, chiefly from the Moravians, as well as the influence of the similiar Latitudinarian movement within Anglicanism).

But without agreeing to disagree we can still agree to a dialectical model that is cordial, that refrains from logical fallacies or gross historical inaccuracies, such as the alternate histories of the early church proposed by some Restorationist denominations and also by the Landmark Baptists and those influenced by them*

*On the other hand, some skepticism of the generally accepted Patristic narrative such as evinced by your own beliefs is obviously something that can be accepted, particularly since some hagiographic texts are known to contain inaccuracies or accidental confusions, for example, the Copts regard the Ethiopian synaxarion to be more reliable than their own, for their own synaxarion confuses Eusebius of Caesarea with Eusebius of Nicomedia with regards to the incident surrounding the death of Arius, which is embarassing since the Syriac Orthodox, the historical main communion partner of the Copts, venerate Eusebius as a saint with the feast day of February 29th, which in the Byzantine Rite is the feast day of St. John Cassian interestingly (and for saints with their feast on the 29th of February there are rubrics for what to do when it is not a leap year at least in the case of St. John Cassian), but completely discarding it and instead, without any archaeological or historical textual evidence to support it, claiming that certain ancient heretical sects such as the Paulicans, Bogomils, Marcionites, etc were anachronistic proto-Protestants, when all historical evidence suggests that most Protestants including all confessional Lutherans, confessional Calvinists and creedal Anglicans would find their doctrines utterly abhorrent, is something else.

Indeed among the Orthodox and Catholics committed to a Patristic theological model of the church, an accurate historical record and critical editions of the Patristic corpus and of liturgical texts such as the Divine Liturgy of St. James (the Byzantine version of which until recently lacked a good, robust translation free from speculative interpolations from a 19th century Greek translator, but ROCOR has provided a really good translation in English and Church Slavonic that also avoids weirdness like celebrating the liturgy versus populum on a makeshift altar in front of the Iconostasis being deleted, for this kind of thing confuses the laity and is not actually called for by the ancient rubrics, and is further anachronistic in that historically there was a templon or curtain and the Bema of the Armenian and Assyrian churches, but the full iconostasis as seen in contemporary Byzantine, Coptic and some Syriac churches took a while to develop from early proto-iconostases). Thus we want to make sure our historical record is accurate, even though we do accept many events which I believe you have expressed a view of as being incredible.

But in general, your conduct has been that of a responsible debater, who has never caused any of the harm I alluded to in the OP.

Recently in another thread also where you and my friend @BNR32FAN and our mutual friend @Xeno.of.athens have been present the three of us shared the unpleasant experience of encountering what one might call a “trackless trolley” minus the “ey”, by which I am not referring to a trolleybus, but rather one dewired in an altogether different way and in a manner than what sometimes happens to busses powered by overhead electric cables such as one finds in San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver, Philadelphia, Dayton, and until recently also in Boston.

Which takes me to another point - these overly intense theological debates create enmity which prevents us from discussing other fun subjects like, for example, mass transit systems, which i absolutely adore. I would love to discuss mass transit for hours with any member of the forum who is interested in the subject. When I was in my youth I persuaded my parents to obtain for me, at great expense, a copy of Jane’s Urban Transport Systems (then in one of its earliest editions as a standalone apart from Jane’s World Railways) and i recall reading breathlessly about the different transit systems in Tashkent, Torino and Toronto and in Dalian, Delhi and Dortmund, and the different manufacturers, particularly of monorails, peoplemovers, hovertrains (like the Otis peoplemovers used to access the Getty center in Los Angeles, which ride on a cushion of air, or the even more aggressive Aeromovel of Brazil, and of course full-fledged maglevs such as the Transrapid in Shanghai which sadly I did not get the chance to ride on before its maximum speed was decreased from 256 MPH to 186 MPH) and the new Shinkansen maglev being developed of necessity in Japan due to overcrowding on a portion of the original conventional Shinkansen line, and other specialized high tech transit systems (but not hyperloop, which has been overdiscussed, and is also, as Elon Musk may have conceded by calling the related company he established The Boring Company, kind of literally boring, and as exciting as Tunnel Boring Machines are to some, I am not an enthusiast, since they engage in too much boring for me, although I do appreciate the fruits of their boring).

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Trump administration scraps plan to abolish FEMA, Washington Post reports

Alan Dershowitz says he knows Epstein client list names: ‘But I’m bound by confidentiality’

Jul. 10, 2025 | Iraq

Christian Family Flees Threats

Jul. 10, 2025 | Ethiopia

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Occultists Pressure Pastors and Churches