David Lamb said:

I would say that there is no reason either to dismiss or to believe extra-biblical details about people or events mentioned in the bible. Particularly with the biblical account of the Incarnation, we find all sorts of "details" added, and accepted as an essential part of the "Christmas story." The donkey, an innkeeper, the wise men visiting Jesus at the same time as the shepherds, and much more. Some of these things actually contradict what we find in the bible, and others, we just do not know.

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Protestants (including me) usually are very, very reluctant to take into account anything extra-Biblical from the Apostolic or post-Apostolic era when it comes to the Bible or the early church history, but this position is inconsistent. Protestants assume Julius Caesar, Napoleon, St. Augustine existed - they usually attribute some degree of credibility to the various accounts about their lives - but somehow when it comes to the Apostolic and early church era all of a sudden all historical record in its entirety is disregarded because it's not the Bible E.g. what we know about Pontius Pilate comes from Josephus and Tacitus .. there is no reason to disregard that.

I would suggest to read e.g. 'History of the Church' by Eusebius (4th century) - the author was present at the famous Council of Nicea; and writes about all kind of fascinating details. We have to treat the history of the Apostolic early church era like any other historical period. Evaluate the sources using the common historian methods - and try to derive history from that with varying degrees of certainty.

The Apostles shared their accounts with others, what happened got passed on, etc. All that may not be canonised certainty but it's still very valuable.

We need historical realism for the early church era in the same way we apply it to any other historical period. It's a typical post-Reformation reflex to dismiss any extra Biblical record, but the Apostles and the early church left a historical trail of oral or written accounts. We need discernment in properly dealing with that. But the trail and the history it reflects on is real. Also we may overlook the early church fathers had access to information/libraries we now don't have anymore (e.g. Jerome mentions he personally had seen the Hebrew original version of the gospel of Matthew)

The very early church fathers who defined the Creeds didn't live in a vacuum - they lived in that trail. It's intriguing to notice that orthodox Protestant churches will vigorously defend the Creeds and Sola Scripture at the same time ... but also rejecting the worldview and many aspects of the faith of the authors of these Creeds. Many modern Protestants would deem the authors of the Creeds to be Catholic heretics, but yet somehow magically believe the resulting Creeds are infallible hallmarks of the proper faith.

We need realism, discernment and modesty - and a weighed valuation of the historical church trail.

To come back to the original subject; the Protoevangelium of James (2nd century AD) contains elements on Mary & Joseph that are referenced and valued by various church fathers. I consider it valuable background information - it's not canon, not infallible, but it may contain elements of that historical trail. Btw I don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity as it would be very inconsistent with Jewish marriage, but the account may have truthful bits.

Be blessed brother!

HARK! said:

Proof?

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“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “Behold, I am sending My messenger before You, Who will prepare Your way; The voice of one calling out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight!’ ””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of fathers back to their children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days. “And you, child, also will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways; To give His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1‬:‭75‬-‭77‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days. “And you, child, also will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways; To give His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1‬:‭75‬-‭77‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“John responded to them all, saying, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but He is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the straps of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan, coming to John to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have the need to be baptized by You, and yet You are coming to me?” But Jesus, answering, said to him, “Allow it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *allowed Him. After He was baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and settling on Him, and behold, a voice from the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John was the forerunner of the messiah.

HARK! said:

Wrong. We already covered this. Repeating it does not change the facts.

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Then prove it. I’ve given you the scriptures which you refuse to address. Here it is again. Israel rejected the messiah.

Since I posted a few verses about John the Baptist being the forerunner of the Messiah then the following verses are very appropriate.

“He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

What do you think the above verses mean?

Ben 10

# 1 WHERE UPON. //. HOTHEN. is an ADVERB

# 2 NEITHER. //. OUDE. is also an. ADVERB

# 3. THE. // HO. is a DEFINITE ARTICLE. is a NOMINATIVE CASE. , in. the SIGNULAR

#4 FIRST //. PROTOS. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the SIGULAR

# 5. ( TESTAMENT ) DEDICATED. //. EGKAINIZO. in. the PERFECT TENSE , in. the INDICATIVE MOOD. , in. the SIGNULAR

# 6. WITH. OUT. // CHORIS. is an ADVERB

# 7. BLOOD. //. HAIMA. in. the GENITIVE CASE . in. the SIGNULAR. in the NEIUTER

#A. It means that the first covenant was only PERFOMED with an ANIMAL BLOOD on an ALTER. WITH A JEWISH PRIEST

# B This then from ABRAHAM. let's say. , about 2000 years ago that CHRIST BLOOD MEANT ANY THING . until TODAY

# C. And to. me it seem that THE OLD TESAMENT. and the GOSPELS is for ISRAEL !!

# D And Pauls letters says HOW a anyone can be saved TODAY until 1 Thess 4:13-17. when. the BODY of CHRIST is taken AWAY

# E. Only Christ s BLOOD can save. ANYONE. !!

TO be with CHRIST. !!

Check EX. 24:3-8. !!

dan p

My story La La Mermaid has finally been released on Amazon! I even made a video promoting it on YouTube and Instagram!:
Login to view embedded media Here it is on Amazon: La La Mermaid on Amazon!

fide said:

I'm sorry - but I think I did.

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Sorry, but your answers are often over my head. Can you please just answer my first two questions directly?

Valletta said:

This thread is about an apparition.

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For centuries they have held these 'apparitions' as belief.........

Guojing said:

You must provide the scripture which states that believing gentiles are the seed of Jacob.

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Israel is the spiritual name given to Jacob. We are true Israel today, not apostate Israel.

We see the international scope of the salvation plan in God’s promise to Jacob in Genesis 35:10-11: “And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.”

After changing his natural name to a spiritual name, God immediately predicted that nations will be of Israel (gôy and qâhâl gôy). The Hebrew word qâhâl means assembly, company, congregation, multitude. This literal describes a nation (natural Israel) and a congregation of nations (spiritual Israel). Clearly, the integration of the Gentiles into Israel was God’s ultimate plan from the very beginning.

Isaiah 27:6 declares: “He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.” According to Holy Writ, those who become part of Israel will assuredly take root. There is clearly a sense of enjoinment in this text. Israel would decisively expand her influence throughout the globe. She would likewise be fruitful. This is talking about a worldwide community of believers. Those who have received Christ have taken spiritual root and have consequently blossomed throughout the nations.

When you consider the meaning of the word “Israel” and how it ultimately finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ, it forces us to ask, what people, then, today, could possibly meet the criteria and designation of true Israel? It has to be a spiritual people, because that is, ultimately, the core sense of the word. But it also must be a company that recognizes, identifies and embraces Christ (true Israel). That certainly isn’t natural Israel over this past 2000 years. It was them that rejected Him and nailed Him to a tree. What is more, this company is not limited to the Middle East but is rather expressly found throughout “the world” (Isaiah 27:6) and relates to “a company of nations” (Genesis 35:10-11).

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people (of all nations), the New Testament congregation. Only they can meet the description. They alone belong to Christ. Only they are His ambassadors on this earth. Only they enjoy favor with God and with man. Scripture proves that Gentile believers would be thoroughly blended into the harmonious whole of faithful Israel. This is supported many Old Testament prophecies that tells us that Israel will be enjoined by others and will incorporate the nations. This is talking about the full spiritual expanse of true Israel. If one is in Christ they belong to spiritual Israel.

Lord have mercy!

This is so bizarre!

Horrifying!

Michie said:

They should placing a warning on fairy tales then. That stuff was read before college and it intensifies as the student matures.. why single out the Bible? It really makes no sense when you look at the big picture.

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Yup. Not to mention many fairy tales, the original, are violent.

Dan Perez said:

And CONTEXT is NUMBER # 1 , YES !!

OR , CONTEXT does not MATTER is # 2. !!

Which is TRUE. ?? # 1 or #.2. !!

dan p

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He alone is truth.

He is Number One.

He can speak through a donkey.

Context would resist such a claim.

CoreyD said:

I thought they might help. I was wrong.
Each verse I gave you starts by saying it's now going to give the history. Followed by the history.

• Genesis 2:4 - The history of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
• Genesis 5:1 - This is the historical record of Adam's generations.
• Genesis 6:9 - This is the history of the generations of Noah.
• Genesis 10:1 - Now this is the history of the generations of the sons of Noah and of Shem, Ham, and Japheth
• Genesis 11:10 - This is the history of the generations of Shem.

No need to overthinking things, J.

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Yea sure.

So my thought was, Genesis 1 tells this aspect of history. And then chapter 2 continues that history. As opposed to retelling it. I'll go back and reread your post to see if I'm missing anything.

I agree that the YEC view of trees growing fast and the events of chapter 2 happening in a single day don't make any sense though.

The Liturgist said:

No, that would be one of mine - can you guess why? I’ve mentioned it in a few posts; its something of the signature breakthrough of my project.

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I've got you beat. I was born when the highest technology machine in a house was the television, with no remote control. You had to walk across the room to change the channel.

BobRyan said:

1. 1 Cor 7:19 'What matters is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS of God"

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Yep. Encapsulated in Jesus two love commandments except for the 4th commandment whivh Jesus fulfilled on Himself and became the Lord of the sabbath.

BobRyan said:

2. Eph 6:1-2 "the first commandment with a promise is -- Honor your father and mother"

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Yep. Encapsulated in Jesus two love commandments.

BobRyan said:

3. Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

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Yep. Encapsulated in Jesus two love commandments.

BobRyan said:

4. Rom 3:31 "what then? Do we make void the Commandments of God by our faith? On the CONTRARY! We establish the Law"

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Think about this one for a bit. First, the word commandment does not appear in the verse.

“Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭27‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Secondly, which law is Paul establishing? He tells us in verse 27, the Law of faith not the law of works (OT law including the 1v commandments). Why? Because Paul tells us in Gal.3:12 that the law is NOT of faith.

“However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.””
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

BobRyan said:

Without the Law... there is no sin Rom 4, and no need for grace or the gospel

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Follow the verses in Rom. 4. What is Paul talking about when he says that where there is no law there is no sin?

“For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, that is, God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭13‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Paul uses the example of Abraham. Look at the verse that follows, for this reason it is by faith, in order to be in accordance with grace thst the promise is guaranteed to all. By the wrath of the law the promise was guaranteed to no one. The law is not of faith and not in accordance to grace. Now, follow the verses until it tells you why. Abraham faith was credited to him as righteousness the same way that the believers faith is credited as righteousness through Jesus sacrifice on the cross BECAUSE of our wrongdoing. The result of this faith is justification.

Do you know what justification is? Here it is:

“On account of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the demands of the law of God are met, and believers are granted the status of being righteous in the sight of God.

Justification is grounded in the death of Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ’s death shields believers from God’s wrath Ro 5:9 See also Ro 3:24; 4:25; 5:18; 1Pe 2:24

Jesus Christ’s death fulfils the demands of the law of God Ro 8:3-4 See also Ro 3:25-26; Gal 3:13; 1Jn 2:2

Justification is grounded in the resurrection of Jesus Christ Ro 4:25; 10:9-10 See also Ac 2:22-39; 4:10-12; 17:30-31; 1Pe 3:18-21

Justification means believers are reckoned as righteous through the death of Jesus Christ Ro 5:19; 1Co 1:30; 2Co 5:21 See also 1Co 6:9-11; Php 3:8-9 The term “imputation” is used to refer to the process by which God treats believers as being righteous in his sight on account of Jesus Christ’s death.

Justification is received by faith Ro 1:17 pp Gal 3:11 See also Hab 2:4; Ro 5:1; Eph 2:8

The example of Abraham Ge 15:6 See also Ro 4:1-5,9-22; Gal 3:6-9,16-18

The example of David Ro 4:6-8; Ps 32:1-2

Manser, Martin H. 2009. Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies. London: Martin Manser.


What are the results of justification?

Justification brings a changed relationship with God and a future hope. It will also bring a change in behaviour.

Peace with God, access to his presence and the hope of his glory Ro 5:1-2 See also Ro 8:30; Tit 3:7

Assurance of forgiveness Ro 5:9; Eph 1:13-14

Knowing Jesus Christ and participating in his resurrection Php 3:10-11 See also Ro 6:5

Freedom from condemnation Ro 8:31-34 See also Ro 8:1-4; Gal 3:13-14

Freedom from domination by sin Ro 6:14,17-18

Adoption into God’s family See also Ro 8:15-17; Gal 4:6-7

Righteousness in the sight of God Ro 5:17; Php 3:8-9 See also Ro 3:20-22; 1Co 1:30

Justification must lead to good works Jas 2:24 See also Ro 6:15-18; Gal 5:13-16; Jas 2:14-26


Manser, Martin H. 2009. Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies. London: Martin Manser.

The law does not justify so why would I want to be under the law? We were put to death in regard to the law. We belong to Christ who died for the propitiation of our sins. We have been released from the law.

“Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were put to death in regard to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

So again, Why would we need the law if we have something much better?

Hank77 said:

The price per oz. is the actual cost. I love unit pricing; it saves both time and money.

In both examples, the more processed foods cost less per oz.

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But barely...

Is someone really noticing a fraction of an ounce difference per serving?

RocksInMyHead said:

Good for you?

Would it make you happier if I called it hate speech instead of racism? 'Cuz we can go with that. "Zero to racism" just had a better ring to it than "Zero to hate speech".

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Islamic religious legislation has codes on what to do if a child bride's 3-hole is raped into a 1-hole. https://archive.ph/cMraI

What is you opinion on forcing this culture between the legs of the culture that ended the Holocaust and gave us Winnie-the-Pooh while they loudly scream no and try to get away?

The Liturgist said:

On the contrary, a Christological-prophetic interpretation of certain OT texts insulates us from heresy.

We know from Luke 24 that the Old Testament is entirely a prophecy of Christ - most forms of recent error stem from literal-historical readings of the Old Testament that do not directly relate to God’s economy of salvation through His incarnation in the person of the Son and Word, Christ our God.

Conversely, Nestorianism resulted from the coercive implementation in tne Patriarchate of Constantinople of the literal-historical exegesis of Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Of course, Theodore’s interpretation of Scripture, although literal, would come across as alien to modern ears.

I would note that the best Church Fathers used both literal and Christological-prophetic interpretations of the Old Testament, while leaning towards literalism in the New Testament.

Many of our worst modern errors come from non-literal allegorical eisegesis of New Testament pericopdes, for example, the use of Mark 7 contra 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to attack the tradition of the Catholic Church, the use of 2 Peter to attack the Epistles of St. Paul whenever one disagrees with them, the claim Christ our God was only allegorically speaking of His flesh and blood in the Institution Narrative in 2 Corinthians 11 and the Synoptics and John ch. 6 and the related claim that Baptism of the Spirit excludes baptism in water, the claim of credobaptists that statements of entire households being baptized were not literally true, and the claim of liberal Christians that St. Paul’s statements on sexual morality are not to be taken literally.

To my knowledge, only five denominational groups, plus isolated churches in other denominations, namely - the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, High Church / Anglo Catholic Anglicans of the Continuing Anglican / GAFCON / conservative alignment, and Confessional Lutherans of the Orthodox Evangelical Catholic alignment such as my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian have managed to avoid these errors (partially in the case of Roman Catholics as there are liberals vying for control such as the German bishops).

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I agree, for the most part. Implemented correctly, the use of allegory can be highly beneficial. However, it is a very slippery slope for some and I have encountered many truly amazing allegorical interpretations of scripture which hardly align with orthodox teaching.

As for the Bavarian bishops, you probably know their history. Bavarian Catholicism has had a curious relationship with Rome for a very long time. When the unification of Germany was accomplished by Otto Von Bismarck, the Bavarian Catholics found themselves as relative aliens in a Lutheran and Reformed conglomerate. In any event, we shall see how Pope Leo relates to them. Hopefully, truth and peace will prevail.

RocksInMyHead said:

"Mortgage records" is a very broad term, and that article is exceedingly non-specific. The actual information that is recorded is the final mortgage contract and deed (I looked mine up - that's all that's there). It does not include the application(s) or any other ancillary forms submitted during the process. Considering that at least some of the claims made against James involved her applications, there was at least some non-public information in Pulte's hands.

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still waiting for proof that is came from Fannie Mae - the lender - or even proof she used fannie mae.

contratodo said:

I tell you plainly dear one, for the times are upon us, one day a person in that office will seam to die, and then..... An alien mother ship will come beam him up,

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Oh.

OK.

I have yet to figure out the obsession that so many Christians have with Spacemen and Flying Saucers. And the apparent compulsion so many seem to have to include those Spacemen and Flying Saucers in the Christian Faith.

Truth is only known by God's revelation. Left to our own devices, we can't get off the ground. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

rjs330 said:

....In banking, much like other businesses we have large conglomerates that have a lot of control. Big banking. We do not have as many locally run and funded banks as we used to. Banks that would know their customers and would help them out. Now, like so much huge banks control a lot of the findings and loans.

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That is capitalism right there. People seeking the means for the most aggressive wealth accumulation.

I'm all for private enterprise. But in the name of "free markets" so called conservatives have opened every possible door for unregulated consolidation AND for unregulated corporate and billionaire campaign funding. I do realize that other parties rarely say no when donors come knocking. But its the Rs and their partisan supreme court who insisted this should be the rules of the game.