New Posts

BobRyan · 2025-10-11T16:11:37-0500

Mercy Shown said:
Romans 3:20 declares, “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” Some interpreters have argued that Paul is speaking of two distinct laws: the ceremonial law, which could not justify, and the moral law, which continues to bind believers. This reading, however, is a later development in Christian history rather than Paul’s own intent.

In the early church, figures like Irenaeus, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine typically read Paul’s reference to “the law” (nomos) as the Mosaic law in its entirety. They emphasized that the law reveals sin but does not bring righteousness, and they did not suggest that Paul was distinguishing between two different laws.

A more formal distinction emerged in medieval theology. Thomas Aquinas articulated a tripartite division of the Mosaic law: moral, ceremonial, and judicial. The moral law expressed timeless ethical principles, the ceremonial law governed Israel’s worship and sacrifices, and the judicial law regulated Israel’s civic life. Although Aquinas did not claim Paul himself made this division, his framework shaped subsequent readings of Romans.

During the Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin emphasized justification by faith apart from works of the law. To preserve the ongoing authority of the Ten Commandments while rejecting salvation by works, they leaned on the moral/ceremonial distinction. Calvin in particular stressed that the moral law still bound believers, while the ceremonial law had been fulfilled in Christ. This approach encouraged Protestants to interpret Romans 3:20 as if Paul were distinguishing between different kinds of law.

In the centuries that followed, Protestant confessions such as the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) codified this division, and it became common for preachers and commentators to read Romans 3:20 through that lens. The two-law theory thus served as a theological tool in debates over antinomianism, allowing Christians to affirm both salvation by grace and the necessity of obedience.

Modern scholarship, however, has largely set aside the two-law framework as an anachronism. Studies of Second Temple Judaism have shown that Jews of Paul’s day viewed Torah as a unified covenant, not as divisible into moral and ceremonial parts. Scholars such as E.P. Sanders and proponents of the “New Perspective on Paul” argue that Paul’s concern was not with distinguishing kinds of laws but with showing that Torah as a whole cannot justify. For Paul, the law in its entirety reveals sin, but righteousness comes only through faith in Christ.

In sum, the theory that Paul spoke of two laws in Romans 3:20 reflects later theological developments, especially medieval and Reformation attempts to reconcile Paul’s teaching with the continuing role of God’s commands. While historically influential, it does not appear to be what Paul himself meant.

Heb 10:4-11 makes it very clear that the ceremonial law of "animal sacrifices and offerings" ended at the cross. It then contrasts it to the "once for all" atonement of Christ saying "He takes away the first, to establish the second" Heb 10:9.

In Rom 3:31 we have "What then? Do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

That is the same reference to the moral law of God that we see all through Romans 2 and 3.

Romans 3 makes the case that all have violated the moral law of God, and so all are sinners.

Romans 3 also makes the case that perfect obedience to the moral law of God as a means for salvation is impossible since even one violation places one in a doomed condition. The idea that we can "not take God's name in vain" until we finally all coveting, lying, stealing etc that we ever did in the past - is nonsense. Paul makes it clear that only the cross will save. But that is not Paul's way of saying "do go ahead and take God's name in vain all you like. It is not longer a problem God cares about"

Justification by faith alone , literally means that the lost sinner comes to God without any merit and claiming the blood of Christ , receives full and complete pardon without first having to be a missionary in Africa (or in Washington D.C.) to gain acceptance.

Bradskii · 2025-10-11T16:11:22-0500

Vambram said:
Our military is blowing boats carrying drugs designed to kill Americans. Our military is protecting our fellow Americans.

Still waiting for all that evidence...

BobRyan · 2025-10-11T16:02:07-0500

Paulwat said:
Do you support the Democrats or the Republicans, and why?

Personally, I lean toward the Democrats. I like that they seem to genuinely care about the environment and are willing to take action on issues like climate change and clean energy. It’s frustrating to see how often Republicans downplay or ignore these problems.

I also appreciate that Democrats tend to focus more on helping working people, supporting affordable healthcare, fair wages, and education. They seem to care more about ordinary families than big corporations.

Another big reason for me is how the Republican Party continues to stand by Donald Trump. I think it’s wrong to support someone who has been involved in so many criminal cases and who encourages division and violence. It says a lot about their values as a party.

Anyway, that’s my opinion. What about you?

I have been offering prayers of thanksgiving that the prior 4 years are ended. But that does not mean I believe all Republicans are saints or that President Trump is my pastor.

BobRyan · 2025-10-11T15:59:33-0500

Tigger Boy said:
Reddogs, I'm sure you have experience frustration on many occasions while you have shared from scripture the correct understanding on death, hell, and the sabbath, only to discover, that individuals will still adamantly defend what their religion teaches even through it is not supported by a "thus saith the Lord."

But are you any different than they when you promote our teaching that the first beast of Revelation 13 is the Rome Catholic Church, despite the prophecy foretelling the timing in which the first beast rises from the sea, will be after one of it's seven heads, (the papacy), wound is healed. You are well aware that wound was inflicted in 1798, and it did not start it's healing until 1929, under the Latern Tready. As of this day the wound is not fully healed nor will it be, until the Roman Catholic Church joins in consolidation with the six other heads (religions) and the ten kings (the ten toes of Dan. 2) which make up this beast.

Based on the specific timing in which the two beast in Revelation 13, are to appear on the worlds scene (some point in the future), our interpretation (SDA) of which you adamantly defend, is invalid.

Rev 13 has the dragon of Rev 12 already existing in Rev 13:1.
Rev 13 says the first beast arises out of the sea but does not say when it arises. Although the Rev 13 text says that the first beast did all of the 1260 years of damage already discussed in Rev 11 and again in Rev 12.

Rev 13 does not say that the first beast arises out of the sea after the first beast received at deadly wound. Rather it says that second beast arises after the first beast arose from the sea, received a deadly wound and did the 1260 years worth of damage.

Your statement that the first beast must joins in consolidation with 6 other heads (where each head is one of the 7 total heads in Dan 7), and the ten kingdoms of divided Rom unite, is also not in the text of Rev 13.

jamiec · 2025-10-11T15:58:46-0500

Amo2 said:
The next several posts are reposts from another thread, so as to create this new topic, and not highjack the one these few posts are taken from. To be enlarged upon by further examination of the writings of the "Church Fathers" in continued posts, and of course any conversation and input such might stimulate along the way.

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the “Church Fathers” to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of “Christianity” for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the “Church” via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conversion.

Translation: Catholicism is the satanic Babylonian Mystery Religion, Jesus hates Catholics, and the Church apostatised in the first century AD. Ayyyyymen Hallelujah Praise the Lord Praise Jeebus and Pass the Ammunition.

None of this is new. It’s vintage Jack Chick.

Aseyesee · 2025-10-11T15:57:08-0500

Dan1988 said:
If salvation is not by grace, or by works or a combination of both, then how can anyone be saved. Simply denying all three views, while not offering any alternative doesn't help.

This is undone individually by learning obedience, outside of this it is simply a distraction ...

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · 2025-10-11T15:57:02-0500

o_mlly said:
Catholic teaching does not require mothers to die in miscarriages:

https://www.usccb.org/resources/ethical-religious-directives-catholic-health-service-sixth-edition-2016-06_0.pdf

47. Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a
proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when
they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in
the death of the unborn child.

That's good to know. But the Catholic put a woman in danger. When she should have sent to labor and delivery. They should have induced her labor. At the very least, it was dangerous not to give medical care.

1Tonne · 2025-10-11T15:56:56-0500

Prayer is very important, and prayer groups are great too. But for those in the prayer group, yes, pray. But also make sure that you, too, share the Gospel with others. Many in prayer groups will pray that the lost are saved, but then do nothing about it. So, pray and then love your neighbour enough to tell them the danger that they are in and then tell them how to be saved.

P.S. This post is not directed at Rebornfree or anyone specifically. It is just a statement to get people in prayer groups to act as well as pray. Blessings.

RocksInMyHead · 2025-10-11T15:53:01-0500

Servus said:
Only according to what you consider an emergency. I'd say the situation regarding local law enforcement refusing to enforce the law, constitutes emergency action being taken to bring in the national guard to do what local police won't.

Newsflash: the president has no authority when it comes to local law enforcement. States' Rights!

Local law enforcement exercising its discretion in who to pursue does not constitute an emergency.

jamiec · 2025-10-11T15:50:09-0500

Michie said:
As Americans, we are living in extraordinary times. In my almost eight decades of living in this extraordinary republic called the United States of America, I have never witnessed or experienced anything even approximating the memorial service for Charlie Kirk in Phoenix last Sunday night. Reportedly, well over 100,000 people attended the service, and millions more participated through television.

And the service itself had more of the feel and intensity of a Billy Graham Crusade than a political event. And even though an unprecedented number of high government officials were there, including the U.S. President, Vice President, Secretary of State, and Secretary of War, their remarks were more religious and spiritual than political in tone and substance.

It is becoming increasingly clear that Charlie Kirk has had an amazing and electrifying impact on millions of the nation’s young people, especially Generation Z (1997-2012). I have had at least a dozen colleagues (most involved in some form of ministry) share with me how shocked they were by the emotional impact Charlie Kirk’s death had on their late teen and early twenty-something children. Most of them knew their children listened to him, but had no idea the impact he was having on their thought lives and spiritual lives.

I believe God was using Charlie Kirk as part of a Christian spiritual awakening on our nation’s college and high school campuses. I further believe that his assassination has strengthened and magnified his cause.

Furthermore, it is clear that an unashamed patriotism and love of America is part and parcel of what God has used Charlie Kirk and others to awaken on American campuses and beyond.

Continued below.

God is the source of human rights, not government

One of the most important things that the movement spawned by Charlie Kirk has accomplished is making America s young people much more aware of the divine origin of the Revolution that has produced

www.christianpost.com

This is a typically ignorant USA superstition, and typical Fundy thinking (which has deeply contaminated & defiled US Catholicism, sad to say).

Rights come partly from God, and partly from the State. Sometimes they agree or overlap, and sometimes they do not.

The stuff in the US constitution is of no legal force outside the US, and it certainly has no force in the Catholic Church. I’m not from the USA, and I do not care what the jokers responsible for the US Constitution said. We have our own legal traditions in the UK, and they do not include what the poxy US of A says.

BobRyan · 2025-10-11T15:49:28-0500

Florian7051 said:
I’ve prayed and not gotten any type of sign or even a feeling on this. I don’t feel love from the church right now. Last Sunday I was told it was my Christian duty to vote Democrat, or I wasn’t honoring Christ (this was a sermon, not a private conversation). I’m a Republican, my cue to leave and never return to that church. I am not the bigot that the extreme left thinks I am. I love and am let down by people in the same breath. I vote Republican because I believe in Capitalism, not because I believe it honors Christ (nor do I think it dishonors him). Don’t get me wrong, I see the need for social safety nets. I am a 100% disabled veteran and if it wasn’t for my Comp & Pen I wouldn’t be able to feed my family, but there is a difference between social safety nets and handouts to everyone (this is Sloth). I have deployed to areas where Communism has destroyed society; it is not self-sustaining. Anyway, I think from a societal perspective the Republican party is better for the economy than the Democratic party. I don’t 100% agree with the Republican party on everything either. Things like Union labor is beneficial not just for maintaining fair wages, but also for protecting the integrity of the trade. Anyway, I digress, my point is I have opinions, and they are mine, and I’m allowed to have them. When politics are brought up Democrats label me as a bigot. I understand why, but I’m not. I see the countless social media posts by Right Wing Christians drunk on pride, beckoning for a war with the Democratic Party, and justifying their anger because they’re “defending their Christian values”, no love in their hearts. I have a daughter who is in the LGBTQ community. While I don’t understand and don’t agree with her lifestyle, I love her. I love her every day. I’m not enabling her lifestyle; I just love her unconditionally. Since when are sinners not allowed in the church? I have sexual sins. I’ve watched porn. I started dating my wife when she was married. She was abandoned and separated but her husband was still alive. I had relations with her prior to marriage. I got her pregnant while she was still married to her ex-husband, I’ve sodomized her, and she isn’t the only woman I’ve had pre-marital relations with. Because my wife was divorced, I didn’t even get married by a Clergyman, but then I was called by God. I repented. Her ex-husband had since passed away, so my wife and I renewed our vows in front of God, and we pray he honors this marriage. I just don’t understand. I love all people. Before God called to me, I found forgiveness in my heart for someone that murdered an ex-girlfriend of mine, and this was before the teachings of the gospel. I joined the Marine Corps to help people. I joined the fire department to help people. My politics have nothing to do with hate. Left extremists hate the right and think we’re all extremists who tote around our AR15s and long for a war with them and want to control the masses through oppression. Right extremists hate the left and think they’re all a violent bunch of radical rebels who want to destabilize the current economic system and take their rights away. And amid all this is the church. Everyone has taken a side. Isn’t there any churches that don’t meddle in politics and just help people find Christ? My wife and I were baptized Protestant so we can’t even receive the sacraments in the Catholic Church. Other denominations are very politically polarized right or left, which I’m not interested in. I don’t believe in predesignation nor do I think the Bible supports it, so there’s that. Other denominations condemn actions that aren’t even supported in the Bible and keep you chained to guilt and fear. Some denominations don’t even notice each other in the pews it’s like being a ghost; others are so cultish you’re not allowed to do anything outside of the church. Tell me, how are you going to help people find Christ without going out into the world. I am always prepared to go down to hell to get someone. I don’t care if it’s a drug house, a strip club, a rave, a casino; when my phone rings and someone needs help, I will go anywhere to get them; it’s in these moments that you sew the seeds of freedom. They may not be ready to love that day, but that seed will grow if someone is willing to put it there and nurture it. I have prayed for a church that loves all. That invites all sinners to come listen. That doesn’t require a membership, that doesn’t make me feel guilty about whatever doctrine they’ve added on to the Bible to make me feel trapped, that doesn’t view someone as hopeless because they see the world differently, that aren’t indifferent about their members or opposite, make you feel guilty or talk poorly of you if you have friends outside of the church. Don’t get me wrong, Jesus is my center, my rock, my everything, but the church is not Christ. Does this place exist on earth, or do I need to wait for the afterlife to find it? I’ve been praying that something leads me to the right church, but I feel more lost now than when I started looking at the beginning of the week. I guess if there’s room in your heart and time in your prayers tonight, I could use some help having my heart reach the heavens. Please lord lead me where I need to be, where you want me to be, this I pray.

The denomination I belong to accepts people in all political parties and tries to stay out of politics in our religious meetings.

So we can say that murder is wrong, killing babies is wrong, being kind to our neighbor is right, knowing what a woman is is right but we do not name political parties .

Strong in Him · 2025-10-11T15:49:10-0500

Apple Sky said:
It's not that I'm interested in Freemason's it's just that I like to know what's going on the world behind the scenes & to be ready for the tribulation.

Revelation 3:8
I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name. Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

You won't be ready for the tribulation by spending time on, or with, Freemasons, sites - nor by accepting every conspiracy theory that comes along.

The shape of the earth, men walking/not walking on the moon, whether there are aliens, whether people were cloned or any other wacky theory out there have nothing to do with salvation, the Christian faith or reading God's word. It is all these pseudo faiths, cults and alternative beliefs that will have to bow before Jesus - The Word, The light and The Truth.

I've said it before; if you spent as much time reading the Gospels, Epistles, Christian books and testimonies as you do searching YouTube for homemade films which you think prove whatever point you want to make - you could be a fantastic woman of God.
He's given you a mind, intelligence and many gifts - use them for him, and don't get sidetracked by Freemasons.

timewerx · 2025-10-11T15:48:36-0500

bèlla said:
Man was created for dominion. Women are awakening and embracing the parts of themselves that were hindered or repressed. We’re more than a womb, cook or housekeeper. We were meant to rule as well.

The successful Nordic Model seems to prove that 50/50 male/female mix in leadership roles is the key. The Nordics kept topping the indices for quality of life, low stress, health, happiness, low crime, low/zero poverty, etc.

On the other-hand, the countries at the bottom tend to be male-dominated/majority and are the most corrupt.

Most disturbingly, countries at the bottom of these "health indices" are also the most religious which can be Christian, or Muslim majority, or other religions. In these very religious, Christian majority nations, their corrupt leaders are also Christians, even members and leaders of organized crime operating in these countries are also Christian by affiliation!

Global crime rates has been falling since more women taking leadership roles and more people leaving religion.

There's far too much correlations to dismiss that everything we're seeing is just a coincidence.

Mostly exposing the church does not know the scriptures and simply repeating the same mistakes of the people who crucified Jesus. "You'll know them by their fruits". Ultimately the gold standard, not how well they can debate scriptures.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-10-11T15:48:01-0500

But lets forget all that . OP is about the Pope and compassionate treatment of desperate human beings.

Michie · 2025-10-11T15:47:12-0500

FaithT said:
I think that when some people are mentally I’ll they are preoccupied with the rapture.

I agree. It can turn into a phobia of sorts. Among many other things.

BobRyan · 2025-10-11T15:45:28-0500

2 Pet 3 "God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"
Matt 23 "How I WANTED to spare your children, but you would not"
John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and his own received Him not"
Matt 18 "I forgave you all that debt just because you asked, you should have forgiven others as you were forgiven but you did not... return all the debt to him"

A New Dawn said:
The verses you quoted (excepting the Matt. 18 verse) speaks to God's heart rather that the process of salvation

God so loved the World that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should have everlasting life.

Shows that it is God's heart the created the process of salvation

A New Dawn said:
From reading your post several times, it more appears you have a problem with God saying narrow is the path to heaven and few there be who follow it.

On the contrary, that Matt 7 statement of Christ removes all options that seek to make God the problem when someone chooses the wide path rather than the Narrow path. It does not say "God chooses for many to be on the wide path to destruction and God chooses for only a few to be on the Narrow path".

The many are on the wide path to destruction even though "God is not willing that any should perish"

How could I possibly have a problem with that? It is clearly a problem for Calvinism just like Matt 18 "I forgave you all the debt" where the ungrateful servant then loses all his forgiveness (forgiveness revoked) and the danger/warning/lesson is stated as "So shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not ..."

Yet another problem for Calvinism.

Very much like the problem Calvinism faces in Rom 11

saved24 · 2025-10-11T15:40:08-0500

Thank you for your prayers, it is scary how controlling the government is, and how vindictive. I am glad they did not get 7/8 years in prison. To God be the glory!
Tamara Lich and Chris Barber were sentenced to 18-month conditional sentences for their roles in the 2022 Freedom Convoy protests in Ottawa
The sentences included 12 months of house arrest with limited freedom, followed by a six-month curfew . Both were found guilty of mischief, and Barber was also found guilty of counselling others to disobey a court order
Lich received credit for time already served, reducing her remaining sentence to 15.5 months
Both will also have to complete 100 hours of community service
Supporters were present in the courtroom, and reactions varied, with some clapping and cheering as they left

Sources

Apple Sky · 2025-10-11T15:38:28-0500

May she rest in peace

The Liturgist · 2025-10-11T15:37:56-0500

I should add, I occasionally encounter members who believe there is only one obvious interpretation possible of Scripture, but this clearly isn’t the case, for even those who have sought to construct, from Scripture alone, a comprehensive exegesis of the entire Bible, without reference to church tradition, have produced variant output. For this reason, theologians and preachers ranging from Karl Barth to John Nelson Darby to Chuck Smith have each proposed interpretations of Scripture which agree on certain obvious portions but which disagree on numerous other details. And likewise, these interpretations also all clash both with earlier Protestant and Catholic systematic theology that refers to church history and tradition, such as that of the Confessional Lutherans, of John Calvin and of Thomas Aquinas, and also with the ancient Patristic exegesis so well summarized by St. John of Damascus, which forms the basis for Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox theology until the present.*

Since this is not the case, it therefore follows that there will be some questions of scriptural interpretation which have not been resolved in Orthodoxy and other denominations, such as Lutheranism, to be subject to formal dogmatic definitions. These unresolved issues, mostly of secondary importance, which Lutherans refer to as adiaphora, are the province of theologoumemna.

For, just as the Lutherans would later do, the leaders of the Byzantine, Syrian, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, and Indian churches, like their Roman counterparts, would, through a series of church councils, come to form, on the basis of Scripture, liturgical tradition, ecclesiastical experience and Patristic analysis, agree upon doctrinal definitions to cover the most pressing and controversial issues.

Yet, since going past that point would risk division over trivial issues, instead, like Lutherans in the realm of adiaphora, Orthodox Christians in the realm of theologoumemna have the freedom to hold such views as are not contrary to church doctrine or without Scriptural basis (the two are the same thing, from our perspective, for to quote St. Isidore of Seville, Scripture is in the interpretation, not the reading), provided of course we do so with humility and the recognition that holding such opinions too tightly might be unwise, since we are outside the realm of defined dogma, meaning we could well be proven completely wrong. Perhaps St. John was 25 at the time Christ our True God was cruficied; I do not know, I have an opinion, but I do not claim it to be definitive.

*And which also continues to influence many in other denominations, such as Confessional Lutheranism, as demonstrated by anything written by @ViaCrucis , Anglicanism, such as the Caroline Divines, the non-Juring Scottish Episcopalians, John Wesley and the Methodist movement during his lifetime, and the later Anglo-Catholics).

BobRyan · 2025-10-11T15:37:07-0500

Colo Millz said:
Coming to Jesus Christ is different from reasoning to the existence of God.

Romans 1 makes it clear that God has established conditions such that we can reason and deduce that God exists.

The part that it less clear is what we would know in the case that God did not exist or that God tried to hide the fact that He exists.

SoldierOfTheKing · 2025-10-11T15:33:03-0500

Because some people want to morally fetishize illegal immigrants…

Palmfever · 2025-10-11T15:32:46-0500

wing2000 said:
"No Kings" is not Antifa. Sure, people who protest next week may have anti-faciast views (rasing my hand), but that does not make one a member of Antifa.

That is not what the article is about.
Is raises the alarm concerning the infiltration of militant fools and the media that remains silent because it parallels with there objectives.
'No kings,'
Just another simple slogan.
Keep your hand up, who cares.
No one is accusing, nor sugesting that you are a card carrying member of antifa.

Bradskii · 2025-10-11T15:31:36-0500

Vambram said:
There's literally tons of evidence.

Then it won't be difficult to produce.

jamiec · 2025-10-11T15:30:51-0500

Daniel Martinovich said:
Revelation 12 & 17 continues the completion of the revelation of the mystery of Daniel 2 & 7.
In Rev. 12 we see and expansion of the prophecy in Daniel. A Roman Empire illustrated by a dragon with 7 heads and the ten horns of Daniel 7. The persecuted woman that gave birth to the messiah is the New Jerusalem of Isaiah 54 who are the believers in Ancient Israel, now become the believers in the NT. Versus 6 & 14 show the 1260 year time period of the universal oppression of the saints related to this empire once more. Rev. chap. 17 gives us the clarity we need to see the times and seasons of this revelation. In verse 9, the great city that sits on seven mountains is obviously Rome. In verse 10 seven heads are Rome's first seven emperors, John is receiving this vision during the reign of the 6th, The Bible's prophecy is not counting claimants to the throne during times of civil war the way historians do. Regardless of what you think of that, the 8th emperor is Titus as illustrated by verse 11. He illustrates the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. This is who Paul is referring to in 2nd Thessalonians 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Also Daniel 9:26 .....and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. So you can see how Daniel and Paul emphasize the individual but Revelation in chap. 17:11, the emphasis is on the empire. There is a reason for this. Titus was the son of the emperor Vespasian when he destroyed Jerusalem. He was not emperor at the time but the prince of Daniel 9:26. He sat in the temple courtyard when he conquered Jerusalem. Revelations prophecy however emphasizing the Roman Empire's destruction of Jerusalem and Titus who was of the same dynasty as the first seven emperors becoming the eight emperor is giving us precise dates through which we can determine the end of the this age of oppression and the beginning of the age of promise. How?

In the next verse, 12. John is shown that the ten kings of the Roman Empire prophesied about in Daniel 2, 7, & Rev. 12, 13, 17 are future to him receiving this vision during the reign of the sixth emperor. Based on that alone we still don't know which ten. But since we have hindsight and know the empire ended in 1453 AD. We can take 1260 years off that date which that brings us to 193 AD which is the first year of the reign of Septimious Severus. He fulfilled Daniel 7's prophecy abut him precisely. Three emperors fell before him in one year. He defeated two other claimants to the throne besides this. Why some historians would call those claimants emperors is beyond me. They never reigned as emperors like the three who fell in a year. He started what was essentially a war against the saints. The death penalty for becoming a Christian. This tells you who the ten emperors were since Severus is the eleventh in Daniel 7. Those ten are the ten who immediately followed the Titus's reign as emperor. So essentially what you have is that from the beginning of the times of the gentiles when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea until the destruction of Jerusalem in 666 years by Titus the prince- Then Titus who illustrates the beast itself's emperorship, followed by the ten emperor's prophesied about in multiple places. Then from the beginning of Daniel 7's prophecy of the eleventh emperor is 1260 years until the Roman Empire and the times of the gentiles ends. Significant to demonstrate the supernatural nature of the Bible. But much more significant as to what prophecies we should put our faith in as to what the future holds.

Revelation 17-18 and the Babylonian Mystery Religion. Chap 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. What this was specifically is the practice of kings and emperors imposing idolatry on the peoples. Today we would call it an intolerant official state religion like Islam. This was started by Nimrod in Babylon shortly after the the flood and was the reason Jehovah came down to earth and confused the languages and spread the human race all over the world. God did not want the entirety of his creation immediately separated from himself by state imposed idolatry. The reason kings and emperors practiced this because it makes people easier to deceive and manipulate as it separates the peoples from the voice of the Lord. In Daniel's first prophecy about these four empires and what would follow he notes that the ten toes, illustrating these ten emperors have the strength of iron but there is clay mixed with that iron illustrating a weakness. The weakness is the Babylonian system of government imposed idolatry to control the masses. Since these emperors did not realize the extent of the danger Christianity posed to their rule, they did not conduct large scale imperial persecutions against them. That gave the believers some breathing room to multiply exceedingly which spelled the doom of the state imposed idolatry. Idolatry is the first thing to fall when the gospel is preached, and to peoples under the influence of the kingdom of God. This is what verse 17:14 is a prophesying: These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. It is not a prophecy of the end of the empire but the beginning of the end state imposed idolatry. Septimius Severus's, the 11th emperor mention in Daniel 7, although to late to stop the momentum of the kingdom of God against the Babylonian mystery religion; turned to large scale imperial persecutions that set the stage for the 1260 years of military campaigns against the saints. As most westerners understand. the Babylonian system, due to its inability to control the masses was eventually replaced by an imperial\state church. That would serve the purpose of the emperors control over their domains for a millennium. If things got out of hand. Such as a region within their empire where the population was gaining access to the scripture and the people becoming aware of the freedoms promised in Christ. Military campaigns to wipe out those regions became the norm as this was a direct threat to the rule of emperors and kings. As noted earlier. The dynamic that changed all this was the invention of the printing press when the Roman Empire ended and the general public gaining access to the Bible. A public armed with the the truth of God's Word began to be dominate in all things including militarily over the ancient order of things and always tends towards freedom. The thinking that developed in Northern Europe due to the public reading Bibles migrated to North America. This was the beginning of the free world prophesied in God's Word that will eventually overtake the entire globe.

One hitch for me is the verses in chapter 17:16-17. They are a mystery to me as these ten emperors were not hostile to the Roman state religion or it's government supported priesthood. My assumption regarding these two verses, although it takes them wildly out the context of Chapter 17; is that they are speaking not of the harlot of Babylon but of Jerusalem's whoredoms. These ten emperors where extremely hostile towards the remainder of any Israeli's in Judea and did in fact seek to totally destroy them. After the Kokhba Revolt in 135 AD the emperor Hadrian sought to erase Jewish identity and as part of that campaign renamed the region Syria Palaestina, or Palaestina for short. (After the Philistines) That is where we get the name Palestine from.

Revelation 19. The end of the age of universal oppression of the saints measured by the four empires and the beginning of the promised age. Like Daniel 2, 7 and many dozens of chapters of prophecy. Revelation prophesied a promised age of billions coming to Christ and the transformation of the world from despotism to a growing free world once the Roman Empire ended. That is what this particular instance, among many, of the coming of the Lord illustrates. As stated earlier. The main vehicle that would bring the judgment upon the despotic ancient world and the promise of a free one was the Bible for the first time in history, making its way into the hands of the general public. That is what is mostly being illustrated in verse 14 in Christ bringing the armies of heaven with him. They represent the old and new testament saint's labors and sufferings, mostly in bringing the world his written word. In other words all the labors of the saints over millennia will now begin to bring the fruit prophesied in a promised age. This was followed by another first outside ancient Israel. Many of the geographical area's that had gained access to Bibles surviving the war aimed at taking the scriptures from them but then, the Bible reading peoples becoming dominate in every area of life, including militarily. This phenomena has been growing in the earth ever since then and nothing the world has thrown at it has been able to stop it. That is what is illustrated in verses 15-16. The defeat in war of the entire order of the despotic ancient world. Mostly but not only, by the peoples influenced by the Bible. It is not beyond God to use the wicked to punish the wicked. As represented in the remaining verses of the destruction of the Roman Empire and end of the age of the universal oppression of the saints. The lake of fire illustrates total defeat in war.

Now I understand how hard it is to see this in chapter nineteen because the pictures presented about it are so highly illustrative. Intimate familiarity with the scripture and a yielding to its own interpretations of its own prophecies rather than familiarity with the many narratives and traditions the Bible is read through are a necessary component of understanding them. I'm going to leave chapter 20 out of this as it, along with chapter 21-22, belong to this current age. I'll write an article on it down the road .

Those posts redefine the phrase “wall of text”.

How do you expect other posters to interact with something that is thousands of words long ?

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-11T15:26:59-0500

Wendy

New Posts

New Posts

Sources​

Revelation 12 & 17 continues the completion of the revelation of the mystery of Daniel 2 & 7. ​

Filter

Forum statistics

Share this page

Sources

Revelation 12 & 17 continues the completion of the revelation of the mystery of Daniel 2 & 7.