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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Who was the president??


....In a Truth Social post Saturday evening, he claimed in all-caps that “the Biden FBI” supposedly “placed 274 agents into the crowd on January 6”.​
“What a SCAM - DO SOMETHING!!! President DJT”, the post concluded.​
Obviously, the “Biden FBI” did not exist on January 6, nor did it exist in any of the weeks or months leading up to the attack on the Capitol, when dozens of police officers were injured responding to a violent mob numbering in the thousands as rioters stormed barricades, shattered windows, defaced the hallways of the Capitol complex and battled with law enforcement around the grounds.​
Some Republican senators and congressmen have also been confused as to who was president when:

The president’s allies in Congress have often been dinged by the press for erroneously attacking the Biden administration for events that transpired in 2020 and the start of 2021, such as Sen. Jim Banks — who just last week wrongly insisted that the 2020 U.S. Census was “prepared by the Biden administration”. Other Republicans, in their zeal to attack Democrats and support calls for a new census, have similarly forgotten who was president that year.​
The fact that Trump posted this conspiracy stuff in the wee hours of the morning, and he is so fuzzy on who was president, reminds me of my mother's behaviors as she succumbed to dementia. What does Trump expect others to do?

Behavior like that plus his imaginary 'facts' that he spews convinces me he has dementia. This week he said that he had brought in $17 trillion in planned investments. No.


President Donald Trump has repeatedly claimed he has secured “$17 trillion” in investment this year – or even more than that.​
“We have over $17 trillion being invested now in the United States,” Trump told reporters at the White House on Tuesday. He added moments later, “We have more than $17 trillion in eight months.” On Friday, he said he thought the figure had “just cracked $18 trillion.”.....​
......The White House list doesn’t show that $8.8 trillion is “being invested now in the United States” or even that there have been $8.8 trillion in credible Trump-era commitments to make eventual investments in the US. Rather, the White House list includes:​
  • $600 billion from “EU firms” even though the European Union has made clear that this is merely an estimate of potential private investment, not an actual commitment
  • $600 billion from Saudi Arabia even though the Saudis’ vague $600 billion pledge encompasses both “investments and trade,” not simply Saudi investment in the US
  • $500 billion from India even though the two countries have said the $500 billion is a goal for “bilateral trade,” not Indian investment in the US.......

He just makes stuff up. My mom would do that when dementia set it. It is either he just makes stuff up or he is lying again.
It doesn't really matter what he says anymore, his base will believe it or give him a pass. Trump called it years ago when speaking of his loyalists as fools.

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters."
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The Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2

Egads.
It seems obvious that my friend @The Liturgist speaks a language of which you are in need of interpretation.
(how's that for being on-topic? :) )
Earlier, in your initial question to The Liturgist you said:

You subsequently posted the formal definition, of which there's no disagreement as far as I can see.

Yet you have said that the Liturgist contradicts that formal definition in his repsonse.
To that, I say untrue. There are areas of faith where there is little in the way of dogma but those areas can not be said to have "no scriptural support."
THis took some thought but I offer as way of example:

There is very little stated as dogma in the Orthodox Church concerning eschatology beyond the lines in the Creed which states:
He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end..
.. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

To say the study of eschatology lacks Scriptural support or lacks a Scriptural basis would be false. There are a wide variety of opinions and writings and statements of faith dealing with the subject of eschatology, yet for the Orhodox that would lie squarely in the realm of theologoumenon.
Why? because many (most? perhaps all?) statements about eschatology contain human conjecture.. post, mid, Premillennialism all have varying degrees of Scriptural support but none are reflected in the dogma of the Orthodox.
Thus, those concepts are theological statements or concepts in the area of individual opinion rather than of authoritative doctrine of the Church.

If one is intrested, a nice article on Eschatology in Orthodoxy can be found--> here

Thank you my friend.
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Who then can be saved?

Wow. The extent that you will go to place the monkey of the bondage of the law back on the Christian back is amazing. Once again, you have NO post crucifixion verse to prove that the 4th commandment is required of the Christian. I’ve already wasted my times addressing your out of context verses and the verses addressing the old covenant audience which do not apply to the new covenant. Get a bit creative and stop your c&p.
Thankfully you are not the judge God is and He knows who is using His Word out of context. You still haven't gotten past Psa 89:34 your position makes God not keeps His promises and as if all examples of Sabbath keeping decades after the Cross and for eternity are just somehow not written in the Bible, when they are and an example of what someone faithful to God does . And the fact you have NO verse where God said the Sabbath is not one of His commandments. That's what I would be concerned about forgetting something He had the foresight to say Remember because He knew everyone would forget. Forgetting something important to our heavenly Father, He asked us to Remember is not an example of faith. The reply you are responding to what not a c/p, but if that makes you feel better or changes the Scriptures, you are free to believe as you wish.
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Jordan says ICE agents ‘doing the Lord’s work’

I am aware we were told the border was safe, secure, and closed. I wonder how many were flown in at taxpayer expense during the Biden administration? And how many entered completely undetected?
The number you quoted in the earlier post is not true. It is the fever dream of a elderly prevaricator.
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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

Even as a Protestant I have always viewed the law as a unified law including the moral, ceremonial, and judicial. I also view the law to contain the 10 commandments. Christ fulfilled the law in the same sense as fulfilling the terms of a contract. The old covenant is fulfilled because Christ sacrifice met and exceeded the terms of the old contract. The new contract (new covenant) has its own terms.
While there is a type of contract to perform a specific task that no longer needs to be done after it has been fulfilled, the Bible does not present the Mosaic Covenant or any other covenant as being this type of contract, but rather it says things like this is a statute forever throughout your generations. The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, so it is presented as a marriage contract. It is not the case that when someone does something that expresses their love their neighbor or their spouse, then they have fulfilled their obligation and no longer need to love their neighbor or their spouse, but rather it is something that we need to keep on fulfilling as an ongoing obligation.

The terms of God's covenants are not up in the air such that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to be a doer of charity in one covenant while it might be sinful to be a doer of charity in another covenant, but rather each of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal and cumulastely valid instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits (Jeremiah 31:33). God could give two people two different sets of instructions for how to be a doer of righteousness in different situations, but all of those instructions have the same character trait in common and all of them would be valid for a third person who has the goal of knowing and loving God by being a doer of righteousness even though God did not directly give any instructions to them.

So faith plus works required for salvation. Not biblical.
It's not that we need to add our works in addition to our faith as if faith alone were insufficient but that we can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through is works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation, which requires our participation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us to be a doer of good works is nevertheless still a central part of His gift of salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Rejection of God’s commandments is not the issue, being put back under the bondage of the law is beyond problematic.
If God said the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to HIs law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us into bondage while the truth set us free.

Not by following the law. Walk in the Spirit not in the law.
God has not commanded anything that is contrary to walking the Spirit, which is why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:4-7)

These verses are all about faith not about works.
In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Right and the commandments spoken here are the ones from Christ not from the law.
Christ quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed everything that God has spoken.

As long as you continue to preach the law for the believer it is you who is preaching a different gospel.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Paul also taught based on God's law (Acts 20:24-25, 28:23).

The commandments of Jesus in the new covenant are 2 commandments that summarize and take over the whole law. The 613 Jewish laws including the 10 commandments was fulfilled by Christ sacrifice in the cross. The terms of the old contract have been met and exceeded by Christ. The new covenant has new and different terms. The Christian is not under the law.
All of the 613 commandments are either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. Christ seen this ministry teaching his followers to obey God's law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught, no about refusing to follow him. The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33).
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Stranger Things

This is a thread for oddities. Things that make you go hmm, what or worse. Enjoy! :)

Millennial Mom Opts Out Of Homework All Year​

She wrote the teacher a letter and informed her they were taking the year off from homework and hoped she’d be okay with it. Who does that??? The mom is in the first portion and the remainder discusses student performance and the numbers are bad and the comments are worse. We’re in trouble.

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Evolution conflict and division

If "In the Beginning" you create a heaven and a earth - I'm comfortable with it inherently meaning ex nihilo - you can think otherwise.
Ok. We can agree to disagree then. But let's be clear, the text doesn't actually clarify the matter.

I think most people would understand that "In the Beginning" would mean "before there was anything". But you can think otherwise.
and if Jesus fed 5000+ people with 5 loaves and 2 fishes and had 12 baskets left over - I'm pretty sure most would think there was some ex nihilo going on there. but you can think otherwise

In the beginning can be the beginning of many things. I could say "in the beginning...of a movie" and that wouldn't have anything to do with ex nihilo creation. Right, so simply calling something "beginning" doesn't inherently have anything to do with ex nihilo philosophy. And Jesus feeding the 5,000 doesn't have anything to do with Genesis.

And in fact, the Hebrew doesn't actually say "the beginning" rather it just says "in beginning".

The Hebrew word bereshith does not have the definite article (“the”) attached.
If it had the article, it would read literally bareshith “in the beginning.”
Instead, the text has bereshith more literally “in beginning,” or “at the beginning of…”
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The Venting Thread

I have seen people holding pens in extraordinarily grotesque manners.

Google "awkward pen holding." I've seen all of them. In first grade in the 50s, we had "penmanship" using a tall, pointy ballpoint shaped like a calligraphy quill pen. I remember our teacher spending a good amount of time getting us holding the pen correctly. The fact that I have clear memory that far back indicates how significant the lessons were. Penmanship and phonics: The lessons I remember most vividly from Mrs. George's class.

My daughter had a coworker who couldn’t sign her name. She only knew how to print. I remember both subjects as well. I think we were the last generation to have the pair.

~bell
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Speaker Johnson describes planned No Kings rally as ‘hate America,’ ‘pro-Hamas’ gathering

In an interview with Fox News on Friday....

Speaker Mike Johnson on Friday slammed the No Kings protest march scheduled to take place at the National Mall next week, describing the planned protest as the “hate America rally” that would draw “the pro-Hamas wing” and “the antifa people.” His characterizations, however, drew condemnation from some Democrats who defended the protest movement, whose first big demonstration was overwhelmingly peaceful.

I don't hate America.
I am not "pro-hamas".
I am not antifa.

That's terrible - that's 'enemy within' territory.

Unless an American citizen is 100% Trump they're 100% traitor.

That's a single party mentality - inculcated by Trump's endless need for validation and praise!

It's like that scene where Umbridge accuses McGonagall of 'disloyalty' because of some petty disagreements over how to run Hogwarts.

This kind of language should be made fun of!

So here's some bloopers from that scene - that make fun of the disloyalty!

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How do we set aside the grace of God?

Please reread the post that you were responding to because that is not what I said.


No, I said that the one and only way to attain a character trait is through faith. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.


The law always pointed to Christ for the atonement of sins.


They did not earn their righteousness as the result of obeying the either the Law of God or works of the law, but rather the one and only way to become righteous is through faith and they embodied that righteousness by being a doer of the Law of God.


First point: the way we become righteous is to believe in Jesus. We are a doer of works because we are in Him.

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. NASU

When we believe in Jesus we have the righteousness of God. We don't need to do righteous works as we are righteous in Jesus (by God's word above).

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV


Verse 5 above God justifies the ungodly. Believers who believe that God justifies the ungodly their faith is accounted for righteousness.
Please note verse 6 this righteousness that God imparting is apart from our works. Example: Under the NT doctrine if David committed all the sins listed in 2Samuel 12:1-15, God would never had imputed any sins to David. He would have treated David as a child of His that is not in the Spirit and would have punished him accordingly. If David had not repented God would have killed him and took him to heaven.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NASU

We cannot do righteous works of the law, deeds, acts or traits, to gain righteousness. It is obvious that you do not believe Jesus makes a person righteous. If we believe in Jesus, we do not have to do works for salvation. Once we are called His children by God we do works to stay alive physically. We do not have to one work, Romans 6:29 except the work of God.

1 John 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU


Above are the only commandments we have to keep. Verse 24 If we keep those commandments, we abide in Him.
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The Schumer Shutdown

The great hoax ..... so complex that no one can grasp it, and it is impossible to change it for good.
Would the Democratic party ever recommend the 3 steps required to bring America's healthcare in line with the rest of the world?

1. Medicare as single payer (obviously - the Bernie Sanders thing). But then ALSO:-
2. Buy over half the hospitals (Australia's government owns 51% of our 700 hospitals) so that they are Government Owned and Operated.
3. Create a Federal agency (like Australia's PBS) to buy bulk generic meds and equipment with economies of scale to drive down the per-unit price.
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Bill Gates launches micro-patch implants to serve as "vaccination passport" for entry into public and commercial buildings

You heard what he said and he gave you a timeline. Don’t read it passively. Be proactive. Start a garden and build a supply of dry goods. Learn how to make things from scratch and get to know local producers. Build a network of likeminded people who are doing the same. There’s no coalition of christians that can feed everyone. But if you take action you’ll be able to weather the challenges better than those who don’t.

~bella
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Heres the thing. Despite all this they clearly state that these measurements verify the vase is on par with modern machining. Is this also a fairy tale.

It is nothing short of astonishing to find that the most ‘precise’ vases in Matt Beall’s collection (e.g. V18 and V4) are characterized by the circularity error <RMSE> = 0.6 thousands of an inch (15 microns) and the centering error <dR> = 0.1 thousandths of an inch (2.5 microns). The centering error of the vase V18 is actually below the resolving ability of the analysis methodology used (0.2 thousandths of an inch). The vases V4 and V18 appear to be 10 times more precise (in terms of the quality metric M) compared to the modern vases.

Given these results, I conclude that the ‘PRECISE’ vases in Matt Beall’s collection were machined using advanced tools since the lathe marks are clearly visible on the inner surfaces of the vases where they were not polished away completely – Fig. 20.


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The 3D models of CAT scans of the ‘precise’ vases look like CAD models: their symmetry is so perfect that it is difficult to spot any surface profile variability when these models are rotated – Fig. 23-24.

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What about the heat map is that not in 3D.


Here are the researchers lying again about the vases precision to MCN. According to your conspiract theory. They are repeatedly telling lies about the precision of these vases.

Structured-light scanning was used, a method that projects light patterns to create highly accurate 3D models, on around 30 of the vases. CT scans have been performed on 35, offering a deeper look at their internal structure and uniformity.

CT scans of a thin granite vase, revealed that both the top and sides are nearly perfectly round, with variations of less than one-thousandth of an inch,
a level of accuracy rarely seen in ancient artifacts.

A separate study of 22 vases by Dr Max Fomitchev-Zamilov, a computer scientist from the Moscow Institute of Electronic Technology, uncovered shape errors as small as 15 microns, making them up to 10 times more precise than vases carved using modern machinery.

Dr Fomitchev-Zamilov also noted that many of the vases appeared to be perfectly centered,
suggesting a highly controlled method for aligning and rotating the stone during carving, which is typically associated with machine tools like lathes.


Is this all lies. Is this what your saying. That all these researchers are lying. Or so dumb they have totally miscalculated these vases and all their numbers are wrong.

I still don't know what your point is. Are you saying these vases are not precise and were not machined on a lathe. What exactly are you saying with all these objections.
Since you mention the term dumb, it is an apt of description of your post.
This latest piece of nonsense is a rehash of the rubbish that has been refuted many times beforehand.
I wanted you to show me in the Artifacts Foundation video which you posted, what 3D calculations were performed, since this task is beyond your capabilities I suggested you contact Karoly for the answer.

Point out what heat map is being referred to.
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Why is this forum so politically active?

.......... my memories of this forum are of the 2010's, when Philosophy and Apologetics ruled ........ :eheh:
Yep. I remember. I was an advisor then. Fond memories. You had to stay on your toes because popular threads would fly and by the time you responded it was a couple of pages old.
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Pastor Points AR-15-Style Rifle at Congregation While Preaching About ‘Spiritual Violence Toward Unbelief’

During his Sept. 28 sermon titled “Clearing the Room,” Dauphin County Pastor Philip Thornton wore an unloaded AR-15-style rifle and occasionally pointed it at congregants. “You have to overwhelm your enemy with a violent action of faith,” he preached. “You have to learn to isolate the voice of unbelief and deal with it.”

After some people raised concerns about the prop, Legacy Faith Church in Susquehanna Township, Pennsylvania, said it was grateful for the attention. “We pray many more [people] will watch the message in its entirety and contextually learn how to defeat unbelief in their life,” the church said.

Dauphin County Pastor Assures Worshipers Rifle Isn’t Loaded

As seen on video posted to YouTube, Pastor Philip Thornton wore the rifle around his neck from the beginning of the Sept. 28 service. “This is for an illustration a little bit later, but I figured I [would] go ahead and get your nerves out,” he told worshipers. “It is not loaded. There’s nothing in it. Praise the Lord. So you understand, it’s an empty clip and it’s been cleared. So fear not, everybody.”

Continued below.
It is several magnitudes of stupid to wave a muzzle around pointed at people. I know of fatal accidental discharge where they firearm was thought to be unloaded. One was the cliche shot-while-cleaning-a -firearm. Another was someone showing a firearm to a friend. I know of a Department of Natural Resources officer who opened the cylinder of his revolver, thought all the cartridges had dropped out, only to find, to his horror, that a cartridge was still in the cylinder. He passed that along as a word of warning. I don't care if you've made sure the magazine is empty / dropped and the chamber is empty: You don't point the muzzle at anyone.

Yet I've been in a store that sold rifles and shotguns, and seen a customer hold the weapon on the level, with the clerk saying nary a word. That's just not done.

Demonstration or not, there is no justification in a minister or anyone else in pointing a muzzle at someone "to make a point." Too many people have been killed by an "unloaded" firearm.
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need prayers finding a church (political triggers inside)

Finding a supportive church community and a group of Christian friends that you can confide in can be difficult, and I hope that you can find the kind of congregation that you need. You talked about feeling like a ghost in the pew. It's possible that a smaller congregation, or a large congregation with a "small groups" ministry, might be a good place to connect with people more deeply than just being an anonymous person in a pew.
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Men now surpass women in church attendance, especially among Gen X, millennials: Barna

Why don’t you ever give a link to your business online? I’m just curious.

I don’t put my personal information on here. That’s nothing against the site but I keep my private life separate. And the same applies with my family. We’re not connected on here. I don’t know if you’re aware there’s several sites about people who make content and threads on Reddit. They go out of their way to dig up information and post it publicly. It isn’t limited to the individual. They’ll doxx their loved ones too. And it doesn’t end there. They’ll come to your home as well and its happened to a few.

They’ve coined a term to describe the behavior as parasocial relationships. I don’t know if men experience the same but it‘s pretty common with women. The threads are mean spirited and they follow everything and comment. There’s a lot of hostility towards content creators. Even though they’re watching and learning from them the money is a problem. They expect the person to remain as-is although their circumstances have improved and the difference is bothersome.

And I learned lesson from Ree Drummond. She invited some people to her home years ago who worked in this space. They were able to see her life beyond the site. This was well before The Food Network. When they returned home they left scathing remarks about their visit and she was hurt. She meant well but she was too trusting and she never did it again.

This is a screenshot of a question someone asked about the hate.

~bella

IMG_3180.jpeg
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Great Music from the 70's

Faces ooh La La

Login to view embedded media I wish that I knew what I know now, when I was younger.

No truer words from the human experience have been uttered.
Wow. Just spotted Rod Stewart in the group. What a long, successful career he has had! And he's still singing ...
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