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rjs330 · Oct 27, 2025

Fantine said:
People who hate America want to end the ACA,

See people who hate America want it to be more like Europe.

Fantine said:
Social Security, environmental and food protections, medical research, education for children with special needs.

Nobody wants to end any of that.

Fantine said:
People who hate America want America without a heart or soul.

I don't think you guys want an America without a heart and soul at all. And neither do we, who love America and dont want it to be like Europe.

JulieB67 · Oct 27, 2025

Hentenza said:
where does the verse say anything about ashes?

Are you in the habit of just picking out verses and leaving the rest? We wouldn't read any other book that way and the Bible is no different.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:2 "But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

That's what the result will be, ashes. Of course you'll come back with "Ashes doesn't really mean ashes" like "death doesn't really mean death" and if that's the case, I guess we're done here. We'll see in the end.

Hentenza said:
. No where in the verses does it teach annihilation or that the fate of the wicked is any different.

It teaches us there will be neither root or branch left and that they will be ashes. Christ tells us "both" body and soul" are destroyed.

But If you want to thrown out most of the Bible, then yeah, I guess one could believe anything. In the new heaven and earth "all things" are new and the former things are passed away. That's a promise.

Hentenza said:
I see that you didn’t address the verse from Daniel 12 that I posted. I guess it doesn’t agree with annihilation. Here it is again.

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I certainly did. I said only one person gets everlasting life in that verse.

David Lamb · Oct 27, 2025

Job 33:6 said:
I'm just saying that, I found it odd that you liked Apple Sky's post, saying that she agreed with what I said, she then confirmed the latter, being that the concept "liked" is related to things like geocentrism and flat earth concepts of ANE cosmology.

Which, at least as far as I'm aware, you don't typically agree with.

In short, you seem to have liked a post that really didn't favor either of our positions, despite how it was framed.

Which you're of course free to do, I just found it surprising because I don't think that you're a flat earther like apple sky is.

I wouldn't like apply sky's post, even though she says that she agrees with my post, because I view it as a matter of accomodation, not actual Biblical teaching. But here, you have liked her post, yet I would imagine you would be further from either of our positions.

Alternatively, we could just all collectively agree that we believe the Bible is true. That might be as far as we get.

Although I seem to get on well with Apple Sky, I rarely agree with her. Maybe her post which I said I agreed with was saying more than I initially thought. Anyway, from your earlier post, it seems as though we are clear now on what we each believe.

Dan1988 · Oct 27, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
Yes he’s addressing them on the assumption that they are believers and he’s telling ALL OF THEM that they are carnal and they are NOT spiritually appraised. They can’t understand the things of God because they are acting like mere men, they’re not setting their mind on the Spirit they’re setting their mind on the flesh even tho they are believers. He’s addressing all of them, are all of them unbelievers? Are all of them tares among the wheat? He’s not telling them that they can’t be spiritually appraised, he’s telling them that they should be spiritually appraised and the reason that they’re not is because they’re setting their mind on the flesh instead of setting their mind on the Spirit. Do you think that it’s a coincidence that he just so happened to tell them how to be spiritually appraised just 2 sentences before telling them that they are still fleshly and carnal acting like mere men?

Of' course Paul is addressing them as believers. My Pastor addresses our Church as if we are all true believers. But there are always "Judas Iscariots" in every Church, many Judas' are in the pulpit and they lead Churches for decades and nobody knows they are Devils, disguised as Men of God.

We don't treat any Church member with suspicion and distrust. Every member gets the benefit of (innocent until proven guilty). In any case the Church is all about the Lord Jesus, we must die to self and He must take over every single aspect of our lives. He must increase and we must decrease, because we are nothing and He is everything.

ViaCrucis · Oct 27, 2025

Hentenza said:
I guess humans dignity does not include those being dragged into the street and shot in the back of the head in full view of the public by Hamas, right? I am yet to see one of your posts condemning them.

Apparently the multiple times I have, in other threads, condemned Hamas as evil isn't good enough?

Okay, I condemn the acts of Hamas--unreservedly--both in this instance and in all other instances.

But when you are willing to condemn the heinous acts of Israel in murdering innocents, especially children, let me know.

I've been perfectly clear and consistent in my condemnation of both Hamas and Israel since October of 2023.

-CryptoLutheran

Colo Millz · Oct 27, 2025

bbbbbbb said:
Indeed it does. However, it all-too-frequently becomes a license for very fanciful allegorization which, in the mind of the allegorizer, is not only proper heremenutics but also a direct revelation from God of deep and hidden truths kept from spiritually blind folks.

So then the question becomes - how can we ensure that the interpretation is properly circumscribed to fall within correct hermeneutical parameters?

My answer to that would be to appeal to the tradition from the ECFs which we have inherited.

bbbbbbb · Oct 27, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Any Bible Scripture you want to add where we are not to obey God or His commandments? Jesus condemned this very teaching. Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 Mat5:19-30 Mat19:17-19 John14:15-18.

Jesus was addressing the inward issue of a harden heart, which is not subject to the law of God Rom8:7-8. If the heart is changed- from anger to compassion, thou shalt not murder is kept. This is what He came to do to magnify His laws and make greater Isa 42:21, not make lessor. Not that we can now commit murder and break God's law, but not have anger in our heart, Its nonsensical. Both work hand in hard, If the inward is fixed, the outward would be shown through our actions and all of God's commandments would be kept.

What you actually think of all of God's commandments, not only ten of them?

FAITH-IN-HIM · Oct 27, 2025

7thKeeper said:
... Which are?

He has no idea. He read in right-wing media that Europe lacks freedom, and keeps repeating it.

ViaCrucis · Oct 27, 2025

rjs330 said:
Rhats fine, but don't be surprised if we won't just roll kver because you want America to be Europe.

And don't expect me to roll over just because I want a better America where all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.

I'd sooner die than let fascists destroy this nation.

-CryptoLutheran

rjs330 · Oct 27, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
The history of the United States includes the occupation and settlement of land previously inhabited by Indigenous peoples.

See America is bad because it was colonialist white people who stole the land.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
Over 2.5 million enslaved people lived in the United States at one time; while they were not the only contributors to the development of the nation, their efforts played a significant role in building the country.

Yes, thank you for proving my point. Distorting not just American History, but also world history. The indigenous people you are concerned about didnt own the land and stole it from each other and enslaved, murdered and raped and tortured each other.

And America was not built on the backs of slaves. You are once again distorting history in favor of the America is a terrible nation propeganda. Sounds like you don't like America either.

Dan1988 · Oct 27, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
You haven’t shown a single passage of scripture that my theology contradicts. I’m quoting scripture every single time to prove that everything I’m saying doesn’t contradict scripture.

There's nothing wrong with scripture, but everything is wrong with your interpretation of it, as I have consistently demonstrated and proved that your interpretation is always incorrect, because it's fundamentally flawed.

David Lamb · Oct 27, 2025

Job 33:6 said:
Alright, so all the above said, it appears as though we currently have 3 positions.

YEC, it's Biblical - David Lamb

Flat Earth, it's Biblical - Apple Sky

Ancient Isrealite Cosmology (which is debatably old earth), it's accommodation, not actual Biblical teaching. -Job 33:6

Alright, glad we've cleared this topic up!

I agree with that. There are plenty of us who believe as I do here, at least, to judge by the content of their posts.

David Lamb · Oct 27, 2025

Job 33:6 said:
@David Lamb, you see?

I have already said that I know Apple Sky believes in a flat, geocentric earth.

Dan1988 · Oct 27, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
You think God has to specifically add the words “I command you” in order for it to be a commandment when He tells someone to do something? So Noah didn’t really have to build the ark then? He was never commanded to. Moses didn’t have to go to Pharaoh or lead the Jews out of Egypt? He was never commanded to. Jonah didn’t have to go to Nineveh? He was never commanded to.

In Matthew 10 while Jesus was explaining to His disciples the importance of persevering in the face of persecution He said this…

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He also said this…

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So are you saying that they will be saved even if they don’t endure to the end? What’s the point of telling them that they will be saved if they “endure to the end” aka “abide, stay, remain, continue” if they’re going to be saved REGARDLESS of whether or not they endure, abide, stay, remain, or continue?

Where is the command in any of those verses? answer only in your imagination, you just made that up.
God doesn't have a problem with his grammar, He doesn't need you to change the wording of His verses. He is quite capable of speaking for Himself, even if you don't agree with what He says.

Jesus was simply stating facts, like If you put your hand in the fire, you will get burned. He wasn't saying I command you to put your hand in the fire so I can prove my point.

David Lamb · Oct 27, 2025

Apple Sky said:
People have visited a small section of Antarctica, mostly the outer islands. People/Tourists are not allowed to go any further in, or get any further in b/c of the ice walls.

That just is not so. There are many explorers who have crossed Antarctica, and have not been prevented from doing to by a wall of ice. Here is a photo of part of the coast of Antarctica. As you will see, no ice wall:

Apple Sky said:
Yes - Military & Scientific bases.

Whether they are military and scientific bases, or community centres where people go to meet together, makes no difference. None of them report having to climb up and over an immense wall of ice.

Apple Sky said:
No probem

bbbbbbb · Oct 27, 2025

Colo Millz said:
And yet there he is, interpreting Genesis allegorically.

Is there any rule that states we are limited to allegorical interpretations as authorized by Galatians 4?

Does it not make more sense to understand Galatians 4 as an example of proper hermeneutics, as set forth by the Apostle Paul himself?

Indeed it does. However, it all-too-frequently becomes a license for very fanciful allegorization which, in the mind of the allegorizer, is not only proper heremenutics but also a direct revelation from God of deep and hidden truths kept from spiritually blind folks.

bbbbbbb · Oct 27, 2025

bbbbbbb · Oct 27, 2025

Hentenza said:
Please post a verse that says that the Ten Commandments were given to Abraham. Moses did not write them down, God did on tablets of stone on Mt. Sanai which is 430 years after Abraham. Moses wrote the Torah under God’s inspiration.

I’m not ignoring what you say but merely correcting it. The Jewish law included the Ten Commandments. Ask any Jew.

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

This is a wonderful example of religious dissociation. It has been recognized since the very beginning of the church that the Law is only marginally related to the New Covenant, having been put to death on the cross. Paul railed against legalism and the letter to the Hebrews goes to great lengths to explain this. However, human nature being what it is, seems to require a simplistic system of works which satisfy God, leaving the person feeling smug and self-justified. Thus, it came about that some folks decided to home in on ten of the commandments, all of which are open to a very wide range of interpretations. Taken narrowly, however, it is a very easy thing to believe that one is completely obeying them.

JosephZ · Oct 27, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
As compared to his predecessor?

watch out! people in glass houses and all that.

Joe Biden’s 577 vacation days over four-year term tops modern presidents

Breaking Down How Much Time Biden Spent on Vacation While President – It's Not 40%

The rumor that Biden spent nearly half of his presidency on vacation came from an exaggerated and incorrect Republican National Committee analysis.

Snopes comprehensively analyzed the former president's public calendar, research from his administration and pool reports — detailed daily dispatches from the White House press corps tracking Biden's movements — and found that the RNC's claim was inaccurate. It is difficult to define what a "vacation" is for a president, given that a president is never away from duties. Therefore, Snopes determined how many days he was in a vacation setting.

Biden spent 117 or 118 full days of his 1,461-day presidency (Jan. 20, 2021 to Jan. 20, 2025) on vacation, or about 8% of his presidency. He also spent 66 days, about 4.5% of his presidency, partially in a vacation setting.

Dan1988 · Oct 27, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
In Romans 1:16 Paul said that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. The scriptures state several times that the word of God does in fact save us.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My WORD, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the WORD of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring WORD of God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it. So no, when people hear the gospel and receive it they’re not saving themselves at all, they’re actually being saved by the Word of God given to man by God Himself that Jesus commanded His apostles to preach to all nations which was to fulfill His promise that when He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself in John 12:32. You seem to think that the word of God itself has no power at all.

No, you're dead wrong again and let me prove it. You reckon dead men hear the gospel, but God said it's impossible for them to hear it.

From what I can see, your erroneous interpret of the gospel always stems from your premise that "man is saved by works" or ":keeping the law" but that idea was well and truly debunked by the Reformers 500 years ago. I'm surprised you haven't woken up to it yet.

The gospel is trash to those who are perishing, it has the stench of death to them and they hate it. So what makes you think that any intelligent person would embrace something that stinks like a corpse??? your version of the gospel makes no sense at all.

Colo Millz · Oct 27, 2025

Fervent said:
... The fourfold meaning of the text has a longstanding tradition, but when it was practiced there was an understanding that the literal meaning is the bedrock and spiritual meanings must flow out of the literal meaning. ...

Certainly. The allegorical meaning cannot mean just absolutely anything, it is limited and circumscribed by the literal text.

Colo Millz · Oct 27, 2025

And yet there he is, interpreting Genesis allegorically.

Is there any rule that states we are limited to allegorical interpretations as authorized by Galatians 4?

Does it not make more sense to understand Galatians 4 as an example of proper hermeneutics, as set forth by the Apostle Paul himself?

Always in His Presence · Oct 27, 2025

Apple Sky said:
King James Bible
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape 1 Thessalonians 5:3

John 7:24 24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

Hentenza · Oct 27, 2025

Aaron112 said:
YHVH Created the Sabbath. YHVH rested on the Sabbath not because He was ever tired , no, but in His Perfect Wisdom and Infinite Knowledge of everything including what humans think and do all the time.

Kicking against the pricks is not helpful - arguing against God, arguing against Shabbat, is harmful and sinful, not helpful.

As written, Shabbat, seventh day shabbat, is from the beginning. God-made. God's idea. God's Instruction.

He watches to see who opposes Him.

for example: Genesis 1 and 2 - The Sabbath — Chalmers Presbyterian Church
"
So Israel was to keep the Sabbath because God made heaven and earth in six days and then rested on the seventh day. Although, Israel were already aware of the Sabbath before they received the Ten Commandments. In Exodus 16, a few chapters earlier, while Israel was in the wilderness, God provided bread (or manna) from heaven.

God provided it every day except on the Sabbath. And because it wasn’t around on the Sabbath, on the day before the Sabbath they were to collect twice as much as usual. So here we see God’s people keeping the Sabbath before they received the Ten Commandments. And the reason they kept the Sabbath before they received the Law is because the Sabbath has a stronger connection to creation than to the Law given through Moses."

Then post a verse that shows that people kept the sabbath prior to Moses and a post crucifixion verse that requires the Christian to keep the Jewish sabbath.

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