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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?
The Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Israel nor any other singular nation.

Seek you first the Kingdom of God.... Matthew 6:33.
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Who then can be saved?

I'm not sure which verse or chapter of 2 Tess you're referring to, but I already know that it doesn't mean what your trying to suggest it's saying.
I see. and that's called presumption-and is the reason you don't know the faith well. You don't know much about the historical foundations and theological legacy of the church, and apparently didn't bother to read the quote from Thess already given in post #552. How can you claim to know anything, or credibly and honestly respond to anyone's posts, if you don't even read them?
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Trump's history of acts of kindness and generosity

Obviously, I need Grok to cite its sources. But assuming that the list is correct, or at least partly correct, I'm glad he has done some kind things for people along the way. It's a side of his personality that he keeps pretty well hidden these days, but it's encouraging to think that there have been some generous actions in his life.
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Origin of Life

Would you say then, that a living [plant or] animal is a gestalt?

That is, it is greater than the sum of its parts?
No, it is the actual sum of it's parts. That's why there is no single definition. It's a combination of things that determine if something is alive.
As Kent pointed out, once you shut the blender off, you still need to introduce energy back into the equation.
We've gone through this. We all agree, including Hovind, that you can't simply mix the constituents and immediately get all the characteristics appearing (plugging them into the mains makes no difference). It's like Hoyle's metaphor of a tornado through a junkyard producing a 747. It ain't going to happen. So we'll ignore that and investigate how it could happen.

We need to go back to looking at dealing cards.
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The rise of menace as a mainstream political tool

Protesters arrested, officers injured in clash outside Chicago-area immigration facility


The office said the four officers were injured while trying to redirect protesters off a roadway and back behind a barrier. Two Broadview police officers and one Cook County Sheriff’s Police officer were taken to a hospital.
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What happens if someone dies before they became a believer, is it their fault?

But I think that whatever gain we earn here, such as coming to repentance, will be embedded in the energies of our soul and brought with us.
Certainly. By our fruits we show we are worthy to proceed to the next step with the understanding gained of how His will supersedes ours.
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Does the Hebrew grammar of Daniel 9:24–27 support Christian Widener’s “double seventy-weeks” interpretation?

Daniel 9:27 — “The Week, the Half, and the One Week”

Many translations simplify Daniel 9:27 to “in the middle of the week.”
But the Hebrew text reads more intricately:

הַשָּׁבוּעַ חֲצִי הָאֶחָד שָׁבוּעַ
ha-shavua ḥetzi ha-eḥad shavua
Literal order: “the week, the half, and the one week.”

This layered structure suggests not just a single “half-week,” but a week and a half —
a full week plus the midpoint of another.


---

Word-by-Word Breakdown

HebrewTransliterationMeaning

הַשָּׁבוּעַha-shavuathe week
חֲצִיḥetzithe half
הָאֶחָדha-eḥadthe one
שָׁבוּעַshavuaweek


Pattern: “the week → the half → the one week.”
That sequence naturally reads as “a week and a half (of one week).”


---

Interpretive Sense

“He will cause the many of the covenant to prevail for the week and a half of the one week.”

This keeps every word of the Hebrew and shows a continuous covenant period —
a full week completed, then the half of another week where the covenant breaks
and the sacrifice and offering cease.


---

Timeline

Week One → Half of Next Week → TakeAway Sacrifice Ends

This pattern fits the prophetic rhythm of Daniel’s vision —
not merely “half of one week,” but a week and a half in total,
bridging one com
plete period into the opening half of the next.


> My translation:
“Know and understand from the going forth of the word to build and restore Jerusalem for an anointed one and a ruler, seven sevens; 60 weeks, the second; and again it shall be returned and built.”




---

1. “Know and understand from the going forth of the word to build and restore Jerusalem”

Hebrew: מִן־מֹצָא דָבָר לִבְנוֹת וְלְהָשִׁיב יְרוּשָׁלִם

Infinitives לִבְנוֹת (to build) and לְהָשִׁיב (to restore) are coordinated with וְ (and) to indicate purpose/result, not ongoing action.

Order: build first, restore second, reflecting structural construction followed by functional restoration.

Keeping these infinitives in one continuous sentence preserves the Hebrew sequence, avoiding fragmentation seen in many standard translations.



---

2. “For an anointed one and a ruler, seven sevens”

Hebrew: לְנָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ שִׁבְעָה שִׁבְעִים

נָגִיד = ruler; מָשִׁיחַ = anointed one.

שִׁבְעָה שִׁבְעִים literally = “seven sevens” (7×7 = 49 years).

Singular forms for “seven” (שִׁבְעָה) are used multiplicatively, justifying 7-7s instead of 77. See Genesis 4:24 for parallel usage. This allows for wordplay: the total period from Cyrus to Artaxerxes can be seen as 77 years, while the 7×7 form highlights the 49-year interval actually taken for the rebuilding and restoration. The Hebrew construction permits both readings simultaneously, showing both the full historical span and the structural timing of the restoration.


Historically: anointed one = Cyrus, ruler = Artaxerxes, marking the period required for initial rebuilding and restoration.



---

3. “Wordplay on 49 years and 77”

77 years = total from Cyrus to Artaxerxes; 49 years = 7×7, the time actually taken to build and restore.

This reflects a Hebrew literary technique where numbers convey historical and structural significance, not just sequential counting.



---

4. “60 weeks, the second”

Hebrew: שִׁשִּׁים הַשֵּׁנִי

שִׁשִּׁים = 60 (cardinal), הַשֵּׁנִי = “the second” (ordinal).

Marks the 60th week in the second 70-week cycle, not the start of the second cycle.

Historical marker: Jerusalem returned and rebuilt under Israeli control in 1967. Counting backward identifies Suleiman (1542) as the ruler who restored the city’s walls.



---

5. “And again it shall be returned and built”

Infinitive + imperfect וְשׁוּב יִבָּנֶה וְיָשֻׁב preserves purpose/result.

Refers to the second return/building (1967), aligning with historical Israel.

Full second 70-week cycle concludes in 2032, marking the Righteous Age under Christ’s rule.



---

Integration with Daniel 9:24 (dual 70-week cycles):

In Daniel 9:24, the Hebrew חֻלַּק (chullaq) means “divided” or “portioned,” highlighting that the seventy weeks are split into two distinct 70-week cycles, each with its own purpose.

Seventy weeks are **divided out** for your people and your holy city:

Key grammatical points:

1. Infinitives form a single coordinated sequence, not separate sets.


2. Infinitives indicate purpose/result, not ongoing action.


3. Numerical wordplay (7-7s / 49 years) aligns with Hebrew usage.


4. Ordinal “second” marks the 60th week in the second 70-week cycle.




---

Interpretive Summary:

Two sequential 70-week cycles:

1. First 70 weeks: Artaxerxes → rebuilding/restoration → Messiah.


2. Second 70 weeks: Suleiman restores walls (1542) → second return under Israeli control (1967) → full cycle concludes 2032 → Righteous Age.



Preserving Hebrew infinitives, numeric wordplay, and ordinal markers allows English readers to follow both the literary structure and historical/eschatological flow.
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What happens if someone dies before they became a believer, is it their fault?

A question I had for a while, what’s the point of gaining wisdom, if in the end we’re just gonna grow old and die, never really having a chance to use that wisdom. But I think that whatever gain we earn here, such as coming to repentance, will be embedded in the energies of our soul and brought with us.
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Abortion: Can You Be Both?

My point is merely that abortion does not solve the problems you are talking about.
I would posit that it prevents them from taking place against a child (because the child doesn't exist).
HAve you heard of heard of Survivor Bias?


Let us imagine we can solve the problems that are causing the neglect and abuse.
The world is broken; we can only imagine solving those as concepts. WE can help individuals only.

Let us imagine we can let teenagers know they matter, let us imagine they do not have to stay in touch with family that do not want them.
That's what I do in my class every day and that's what I did in the counselling position as well. Often times they didn't and we would respect it (worked a couple kids through the immancipation process)

I am thinking that if you are emplyed by the state, and working with teenagers, it maybe tougher for you because it is less clearly their own choice to be in your care. Plus you are probably working longer hours.
To an extent....as a teacher (obviously) no. As a frontline social worker? The kids were happy to have me but yeah, they didn't have a choice.
As a counsellor...kind of? IF kids didn't like it, they'd just go AWOL til their bed closed. Many stayed, some did not. Work hours were reasonable (except as a teacher; it's freaking insano)

However difficult my work gets, everyone who comes to us has basically chosen to do so. Although even among adults, we really do not see anybody who says that they are from a happy untroubled home, and references to parental drug use are the norm.
Have you read "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Gabor Mate. To have ANY sense of addition, I think this is required reading. I would just encourage you to read it. He was the doctor that worked in the world famous drug consumption site in EAst Vancouver back in the 1990s before ANYONE EVER really thought it was a "really good idea".

I still do not see terminating people as the way to solve anything.
But you are not terminating people (that implies adults to me...though I doubt you meant that). You are keeping the child from being born. The solution is that they don't have to go through that painful life i've seen so many other kids go through.


It means that basically people who do not end up living at all are spared suffering hardship in life.
Yes. THat's correct.
Yes they are, but I do not believe Jesus sees stop life as a suitable solution to the matter of life being tough.
I understand why folks think that because it seems like such a distasteful solution.
As I see it, that little fetus that God knew will go back and be with Him.

I thought you were saying that, but then you described people having children and then not wanting them. The solution to the misery you describe is to ensure those neglected human beings discover loving and being loved, and know that God/Canada/all civil members of the human race can see that they are worthwhile because they are people. I do not see how that message is conveyed to anyone by thinking that their parents, who concieved them, should not have had them.
OF the kids that I have worked with who fit the description I gave above, ALMOST half of them, when they were crying in their bad at night, confused why their FAS brain got them in trouble and not understanding anyhting would wail "I wish my mom just aborted me" (perhaps a bit dramatic but I mean half of them DID say those words to me).

I'm not advocating for abortion as a solution to anything; again, I grieve abortions. But I have seen what 15 years of pain actually does to children...and I grieve that far, far, far FAAAAAAAR more.

I do understand that my idea of the solution looks absurdly unrealistic.
I understand that.
Lol. Try being a christian holding my position...sometimes it still even feels unrealistic. But here I am.
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What happens if someone dies before they became a believer, is it their fault?

I agree with you entire post, except, and I am being pedantic over the word "deserves". It is entirely because I believe Jesus saves everyone that He can save, and that no one gets what they deserve. Those who live to repent of their sins do not deserve the forgiveness that they are granted, and those who dies before any possibility of commiting a wilful act of sin certainly are going to heaven, but it is because they can be saved by His gracious nature and desire to save all. To me, what anyone deserves is nothing to do with it.

I absolutely agree with you about God's judgements being infallible, He sees every detail of our minds, brains and souls, He knows exactly who is freely choosing wrongly, and who is willing to let His truth in. His judgements are coming from someone we know has these characteristics - "9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 NIV and "3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4 NIV .

So I believe He saves everyone He can save, and He can save those who die before they had any chance of acting of their own free will in rebellion. I am not a universalist, He wants to save all, no He does not always get what He wants, He respects the choices we make.
Spot on my man, spot on. This is exactly what I'm saying. It isn't that any of us deserves to know the Father through Christ and be saved, but that we who don't deserve it are saved and more so even the little children. This is the whole "abortion" fight going on right now, and people who know God's heart know God doesn't want us killing the unborn, or just as bad, the post-born! God is the Creator, not the destroyer, the Life-Giver not the life-taker, He is full of mercy, not wishing to punish anyone, and the Scripture is clear Hell is for punishment (Matthew 25:46).

People on Earth who punish an infant for crying are reprehensible and detestable and grotesque, even by our very low standards. Where did we even get such an idea? Our Father in Heaven who declares what is right and what is wrong, otherwise we would be calling the unborn a "clump of cells" and even ritual sacrifice starts to move into the realm of "no big deal" if they are simply "material that isn't alive yet." No, universalism isn't what God is, but saving everyone He can save is certainly His heart, and He definitely CAN save them because He PAID for it. (Isaiah 59:1)

"To me, what anyone deserves is nothing to do with it."

EXACTLY. It is who CHRIST is that has everything to do with it!
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What happened in the past has an effect on us today, all because Sin is in the world.

The Lord created man from the dust of the ground and commanded the man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (this tree represents Satan) which was in the midst of the Garden of Eden. The fruit that this tree produced was lies. Eve listen to the lies that were told to her by Satan, she believed him and told the lies to Adam. He listened to the voice of his wife and their disobedience toward God's commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought death upon them as well as upon all mankind. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

So now Satan has destroyed man, God's creation, through iniquity. So the Lord sought out faithful men to serve him (Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob) so that he could redeem the creation. He made his covenant with Abraham, then passed it down to his seed Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Jacob's 12 sons, for which Moses came out of the lineage of Levi. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, ‘Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words, which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 19:3-6)

The Lord chose Israel to teach the rest of the sons of Adam his laws and statues. "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.” (Deuteronomy 7:6-11)

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” (Romans 9:1-5)

As Israel goes, so goes the whole world. Israel failed to keep the covenant of God so God punished Israel. "Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." (Amos 3: 1-2) "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior. I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise. But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse and Israel to reproaches.” (Isaiah 43: 10-13 & 21-28)
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