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David Lamb · 2025-11-17T00:12:15-0600

walter45 said:
God does both. Jesus talks about the resurrection of the Dead from their Graves.

Why would people need to be raised from the dead from there grave if they were already alive? John 5:28-29
Why do people believe that they are alive on the first day after their death, when Jesus says they are raised from the dead on the last day? John 6:40, 6:44

Their material bodies are placed in the grave. Their souls go immediately to heaven or hell. That is why Jesus said to the repentant thief on the cross beside Him:

“Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

Paul wrote:

“For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.” (Php 1:23 NKJV)

No suggestion of departing this life then waiting in the grave for the last day to be with Christ.

Bradskii · 2025-11-17T00:04:12-0600

rambot said:
"Real American voters"....don't care if Trump raped girls?

What a condemnation this will be to the people who take up this flag and fight the release.

Prepare yourself for the screeching of tyres and the smell of burning rubber as all those who argued against the files being released now read Trump's latest U turn and do a similar 180.

Trump tells Republicans to vote to release Epstein files, in a reversal of his previous stance

The US president has said he backs US lawmakers efforts to release the files, ahead of an expected House vote this week

www.theguardian.com

'The US president has said he backs US lawmakers efforts to release the files, ahead of an expected House vote this week.

US president Donald Trump has urged his fellow Republicans in Congress to vote for the release of files related to the late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, reversing his earlier resistance to such a move.'

So, do you support the release of the files, or not?
Umm, well...I do. Well, I did. Until I didn't. So now I think I do. Until of course I don't.

stevevw · 2025-11-17T00:04:06-0600

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
I thought I'd give this another shot, but Steve, you are a brilliant example of the Dunning-Kruger effect by proxy: you claim these people are experts that we should accept whatever they say wholesale, with no critical thinking on our own part, that you make the word 'skeptic' look like a fricking joke.

But your not apply critical thinking. You disqualified yourself on that when you tried to make out King was nothing but a bike maker and had no idea what he was talking about. Thats not critical thinking. Its a logical fallacy.

I never said anyone should take his expert opinion over everything else. I said we should include his opinion because he works in an industry that is closely related to tools and machining in making similar objects. But your completely dismissing him altogether. Not even allowing his opinion in the first place.

You are also making logical fallacies by making false claims that I am demanding that Kings opinion be the only one. There are many like demanding we find the actual device otherwise all investigations that can inform us what made them is dismissed.

Another is insisting a standard of evidence such as peer review and then making claims without peer review while dismissing peer review. Which is a double standard. This thread is full of logical fallacies.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
You have no desire for critical thinking, only accepting the first 'expert' opinion that isn't the mainstream to walk into the door and accept it wholly without thought on your own part.

This is also full of logical fallacies. Again I never said what your claiming. Your creating a strawman. Show me where I said we should accept the first person who walks thtough the door or that we should accept wholly what anyone said.

I have linked maybe 20 odd different researchers or testers as well as mainstream sources. So how am I demanding only one source or to completely and blindly accept one source. This is all falsehoods. Your creating a monster in your head to put in my head thats just not there.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
You're so blinded by bells and whistles and credentials that you are blinded to everything else. Your go-to response to calling any criticism or skepticism on the people you glorify (you even call Petrie and King 'great men'!) 'ad hominems' shows your lack of desire for engagement with ideas or even the very idea that you could be wrong.

This has all the same fallacies. Have you ever considered that instead of fixating on peoples reputation and credibility that you actually look at what they are saying on the subject. How they are specifically explaining the tools and machining processes for how the marks can be made. or how such a vase can be made.

Did you even get past mocking the credibility to look at the content. How about you look at what King said technically about how the vase could have been made with his expert knowledge and then critique that with your criitical thinking. Rather than spend all the time and energy finding ways to fixate on the person.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
To talk to you is akin to an intellectual tarpit.

Well it would be when theres many logical fallacies. Your creating an imaginary strawman and then attributing this to me and then attacking that. I never said any of what your claiming. So if your create an imaginary boogyman then its going to appear incoherent. But its all coming from yourself to yourself.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
I wash my hands of you.

Fair enough. Thats all you need to do if you don't like it. People have their own opinion and have a right to express that and not get mocked or dismissed for doing so.

sovereigngrace · 2025-11-16T23:52:38-0600

Guojing said:
There is no teaching by Paul, that teaches we the Body of Christ are the Bride of Christ. You are trying to infer from unrelated verses in Paul's epistles.

Only Israel ends up being the Bride of Christ.

Where does it say that?

sovereigngrace · 2025-11-16T23:52:06-0600

Clare73 said:
Which does not alter the fact that God has no people who are not in Christ and, therefore, are not the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

Exactly! Well said!

sovereigngrace · 2025-11-16T23:48:53-0600

Fisherking said:
We are Betrothed to Jesus, the Marriage takes place in heaven. This list may help....UNKNOWN AUTHOR this has been around 20 plus years on the net. Guy may have passed on.

The Wedding Pattern

The Lord gave Israel seven feasts in Leviticus 23. The Lord refers to the feasts as appointed times (mowed – Strong’s H4150). Mowed means an appointed time, a specific time. Our Heavenly Father knows the End from the Beginning, and the seven specific appointed times of the seven feasts give us an outline of His overall plan and I believe that some appointed times have been, and all will be literally fulfilled.

Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18 and Romans 11:25-26.

There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this.

When I first realized the connection between the feasts and the steps of the wedding, I was troubled by the Fall Feasts. Although "Trumpets" is a favorite feast for those of us listening for the trumpet of the Lord, I could not clearly in my mind make these feasts fit the Church. The Fall Feasts seem to point to the people Israel. Therefore, when I realized there were two different brides which would be dealt with in separate manners, the pieces seemed to fit together.

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became spiritually adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:
1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been literally fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:
3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter two, to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - I Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (I Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

Getting long, but it just shows how Israel will be dealt with in a different manner. They are the Fathers bride after all.

Does it take 7 yrs for a Jewish Wedding to be consummated? Of course not. This is another Pretrib invention that has no connection to reality or God's infallible Word. No scripture passage anywhere in the Bible compares a Pretrib rapture coming of the Lord to a 7 year or 7 day supposed Jewish Wedding tradition. When Christ is united with His bride; it will not be for a 7-day or 7-year consummation; it will be for eternity!

If you want to know when the marriage occurs; you must go to the end of the Tribulation; in Revelation chapter 19; when Jesus returns to the earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords. That is when Scripture teaches the Marriage will occur.

Postribber Tony Warren argues in an article on this issue (Jewish Wedding Customs & the Rapture): “If pretribulationists are right, we would expect the wedding and the feast to commence at the beginning of the tribulation, not after the tribulation as Revelation 19 plainly indicates. If Jesus was referring to heaven as the seven years in the 'Chuppah' in John 14:1-3, the bride should have “made herself ready” before the pretribulation rapture (around Rev. 4). And the “marriage of the Lamb” should have occurred at the beginning of the tribulation, and not at its extreme end. The pretribulation scenario has Jesus being intimate with the Bride in the “Chuppah” for seven years before Revelation 19 indicates the wedding occurs!”

Dr. Robert Gundry contends. "If a purported pretrib coming to fetch the church to heaven is supposed to reflect the ancient Semitic custom of a groom's fetching the bride to his home, what is Jesus' taking the church with Him back to earth right after the marriage supper, and for a thousand years, supposed to reflect? An ancient Semitic custom of the groom's taking his bride back to her home to live with her there for a long time? The pretrib reasoning gets itself into a pickle by injecting a marriage custom that isn't even mentioned in the biblical text at hand, and then giving that custom argumentative weight of an allegorical sort but not carrying out the allegory consistently. In fact, our ignorance of ancient Semitic marriage customs exceeds our knowledge. And what knowledge we do have shows considerable variation in these customs."

Joachim Jeremias (an authority on ancient Jewish customs) confirms in The Parables of Jesus: "The mistaken idea has arisen because we possess no connected description of a wedding feast from the time of Jesus, but only modern collections of material which attempt to construct a connected mosaic out of the scattered allusions to be found in the rabbinic literature. There is evidence that these collections of material are incomplete. This is not surprising in view of the situation with regard to the sources; the material is unlimited and widely scattered, and the picture is extraordinarily varied; then as now, wedding customs differed in different districts; moreover, after the destruction of the Temple, under the repeated impact of national disasters, they underwent far reaching restrictions; but above all, the occasional reports which we possess are widely distributed in space and time: in space they come from Palestine and Babylonia, while in time they are spread over many centuries."

In his Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Alfred Edersheim wrote that the custom in Jesus' day was to have the wedding on a Wednesday, allowing the first three days of the week for the bride to prepare herself for her groom's coming. “The marriage followed [the betrothal ritual] after a longer or shorter interval, the limits of which, however, were fixed by law. The ceremony itself consisted in leading the bride into the house of the bridegroom, with certain formalities, mostly dating from very ancient times. Marriage with a maiden was commonly celebrated on a Wednesday afternoon, which allowed the first days of the week for preparation, and enabled the husband, if he had a charge to prefer against the previous chastity of his bride, to make immediate complaint before the local Sanhedrim, which sat every Thursday ... This circumstance enables us, with some certainty, to arrange the date of the events which preceded the marriage in Cana. Inferring from the accompanying festivities that it was the marriage of a maiden, and therefore took place on a Wednesday ... On ‘the third day’ after it, that is, on Wednesday, was the marriage in Cana of Galilee.”

Bradskii · 2025-11-16T23:47:20-0600

Fervent said:
We have drastically different assessments of the existing systems and their living up to their supposed structures. It certainly seems an illusion to me...

I wish you'd stop saying that. It's imperfect. It's not ideal. There are many faults. But it does work in the way that democracies are meant to work. If more people vote for one party than the other then they get to rule the roost for the duration. It's that simple. But it's not an illusion.

It's the same for theocracies. I will guarantee that they're not perfect either at least due to the different interpretations of whatever holy book is being used to run society. But they work in the way they're meant to work. By divine fiat. And nobody gets to vote.

I'll go Option One, thanks.

Unqualified · 2025-11-16T23:46:12-0600

If you are over eating and drinking heavily you are being a carnal Christian and sitting on the fence. But I am not the judge. You may not go in the rapture. But if you want to be a Christian you should probably clean up your life a little and you have the power to do so.

sovereigngrace · 2025-11-16T23:44:22-0600

Guojing said:
Galatians was written before Paul's final visit to Jerusalem in Acts 21.

If the Israel of God, is us, and he taught us that we are dead to circumcision (Galatians 5:2), then what James and the elders accused him of in Acts 21:18-25 would have been correct.

That is how I know the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 is not us

Galatians 6:15-16: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Q. 1 Who is Paul specifically speaking to?
Q. 2 What is he speaking of in this text?
Q. 3 Who is he speaking about?

A. 1 He is primarily speaking to Gentile believers in Galatia, although there would doubtless have been Jewish converts among that assembly of believers.
A. 2 The whole focus of this passage is the subject of circumcision, and how it has no bearing upon the issue of salvation.
A. 3. All those who are born again.

Whilst this epistle was inspired of the Holy Spirit for the edification and instruction of the Church of Jesus Christ generally, it was initially and principally written to the Galatian Gentile believers. The verses that actually precede Paul’s instruction on “the Israel of God” makes it clear that his counsel was primarily directed to those Galatian saints who were experiencing hostility from certain Jews for not being physically circumcised. Paul in turn was specifically addressing the issue of circumcision, warning the Galatian Gentile believers against the dangerous crusade of these misguided Judadizers who were attempting to put them under bondage by compelling them to be circumcised.

Paul says of such, in his introductory comments in Galatians 6:12-13, “As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh (speaking of the Jews), they constrain you (Galatian Gentile believers) to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised (namely the Jews) keep the law; but desire to have you (Gentiles) circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.”

Obviously, it would not make sense for the carnal Jews to pressure the saved Jews to get circumcised, as they had to be circumcised to be a Jew. It is therefore not hard to identify Paul’s audience here. His recipients are indeed uncircumcised Gentiles. Paul indeed declares, “they constrain you to be circumcised” (v12); and repeats, they “desire to have you circumcised” (v13).

These religious Jews were false teachers looking to bring Gentiles under bondage. Peter highlighted the error of these Jewish legalists in Acts 15:24, saying: “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.”

Paul is constantly telling us in his writings in lucid terms that there is no ‘them and us’ within the body of Christ. He emphasizes how one’s Jewishness or Gentileness means absolutely nothing today “in Christ Jesus.” He actually rebukes those that try to establish distinct groupings within the body of Christ (namely Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians). Paul repeatedly instructs the New Testament believer that there should be no racial, cultural or economic division within the body. 1 Corinthians 12:25 says: “That there should be no schism in the body.”

Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any merit or virtue before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like Galatians 6. The reading declares, “And as many as walk according to this rule” (what rule?) – the non-racial new birth experience, – then “peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Paul places a blessing upon all who “walk according to this rule” – all who are conformed to this standard. As Christopher W. Cowan puts: “All who have experienced the new creation in Christ will have lives that manifest conformity to it” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16). Manifestly, Paul only had one company in mind: the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

The verb interpreted “walk according to” here [Gr. stoicheō] means to keep in step with, to conform to or to follow. Paul uses the same word in Galatians 5:25: “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk [Gr. stoicheō] in the Spirit.” Paul’s approval in Galatians 6:16 is placed upon all those who live their lives in strict conformity with the rule/standard he has just proclaimed.

James Burton Coffman remarks: “It is surprising that any could misunderstand this, as if Paul were, in any manner, invoking a blessing upon racial Jews. ‘Israel of God’, in the true sense, with Paul, was never racial Israel, but the spiritual Israel … This meaning of ‘spiritual Israel’, of course, included all of every race, including Jews, who accepted Christ.

John Wesley agrees: “‘Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God. Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule.” John Calvin writes: “I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, - When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God.”

The Bible makes clear, only the second birth can create “a new creature” – nothing else. That is why Paul commences by saying, in Galatians 6:16, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Galatians 6:15). Those who subject themselves to this divine decree (namely, giving their life to Christ), will, irrespective of race, experience the peace of God and the mercy of heaven.

The New Testament is constantly reminding us that we are saved by grace and not by race; and that when we are saved we become one unique spiritual race. The Church in fact is a spiritual nation with it passport stamped in heaven.

Bradskii · 2025-11-16T23:38:11-0600

FireDragon76 said:
Many ardent Trump supporters aren't seriously advocating for theocracy...

It would be a foolish move. I don't think they're that foolish.

Larniavc · 2025-11-16T23:36:23-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
I had more in mind examples along the lines of a book, or even a youtube channel for instance, committed to explicating the "benefits" of Nietzsche's or Marx's thinking, or some such, proliferating as they have over the last quarter century.

If an idea cannot compete in the market place of ideas it quickly falls from prominence.

Konnie King · 2025-11-16T23:35:49-0600

The Oddball Couple

Douggg · 2025-11-16T23:22:24-0600

keras said:
Impossible!
It is forbidden for any follower of Judaism to step onto the ancient Temple platform. They might step where the Holy of Holies was.
The Jewish Temple Institute, is just a minor cult faction, without Israeli Government support, or any much other help. Their corner stone, got stolen!

It will be men from far away, Gods true Israelite people; Christians, who will come to build the new Temple in Jerusalem. Zechariah 6:15

The Jews will rebuild a temple on the temple mount following the Gog/Magog attack on Israel event.

keras, Gog's army will be destroyed on the mountains of Israel . Not a Christian nation named Beulah in your theory.

Ezekiel 39
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Fervent · 2025-11-16T23:03:58-0600

Servus said:
The whole thing developed in the 6th century as a result of combatting certain Christological heresies such as Nestorianism to name one. But then the church went overboard in establishing doctrines and practices regarding Mary.

that's like saying Trinity developed in the 4th century because it was formalized in response to Arianism. There is plenty in the patristics detailing many of the Marian doctrines that came to dominate such as perpetual virginity. Certain doctrines are later developments, or at least were not robustly supported historically, such as the Assumption of Mary, but there is plenty of Marian devotion present long before where you're placing it.

Douggg · 2025-11-16T23:00:59-0600

As further enhancement to your understanding, I added another feature to the chart that shows the "tribulation of those days" a term found in Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:29 describes the changes to the sun, moon, stars, that will take place during the sixth seal in Revelation 6. What it will be about is the appearance of the Son of Man - Jesus - to everyone living on the earth.

It will send terror into the wicked men of the earth. Who in reaction will gather their armies at Armageddon for 45 days to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

GodDoesListen55 · 2025-11-16T23:00:09-0600

Papa Don't Preach.

Douggg · 2025-11-16T22:59:31-0600

The person who becomes the Antichrist will go through 5 stages on the way to his destruction. The numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 on the chart shows the transition points through those 5 stages.

1. as the little person, leader over a group of ten EU leaders.
2. as the prince that shall come into middle east/Israel following the Gog/Magog event.
3. as the Antichrist, perceived as the King of Israel messiah by the Jews (for a while).
4. as the revealed man of sin, end of stage 3, the Jews will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel.
5. as the beast of Revelation 13, of whom the statue image will be made of him and placed on temple mount as the AOD (abomination of desolation).

Fervent · 2025-11-16T22:52:44-0600

PloverWing said:
This may be a cultural difference. Do you genuinely remember a time when street preachers were looked up to?

I've read that there were times in history when street preaching was a respectable thing that people did, but I've never witnessed such a time myself. My first associations with street preaching are the Hare Krishnas and the odd folks who walk around wearing signs that say "the end is near".

I assume things must be different in Australia. Can you tell me about that?

yeah, this is more in line with my experience as well. Street preachers have always been regarded more as a nuisance than being respected.

bbbbbbb · 2025-11-16T22:52:06-0600

Etiquette exemplifies exceptional, exquisite expression.

bbbbbbb · 2025-11-16T22:50:34-0600

all together

Fervent · 2025-11-16T22:50:23-0600

Servus said:
You said that you're not all that up on Catholic dogma about Mary, whereas I've been thoroughly schooled by Catholics in the matter.

I'm not deeply informed about the catechisms, but I am well versed in surrounding issues such as historical heretical movements and iconic theology in general and how much of the doctrines have been defended. The specific Marian dogmas I'm only vaguely aware of, but the deeper issues involved are more central in my view anyway.

Fervent · 2025-11-16T22:48:00-0600

Servus said:
No, someone called out that post to me, as though I and most everyone else should already be familiar with all of that.

I didn't see he had quoted you, so my mistake there. Though I still maintain that the option to simply ignore the post was available, or responding more graciously. I didn't get the impression that there was an expectation of familiarity, instead it seemed an attempt to inform you about the history of the church in terms that were used within the church.

PloverWing · 2025-11-16T22:44:18-0600

stevevw said:
But I remember times when say street preaching was almost a special vocation and even the bad guys use to look up to them as they saw some hope.

This may be a cultural difference. Do you genuinely remember a time when street preachers were looked up to?

I've read that there were times in history when street preaching was a respectable thing that people did, but I've never witnessed such a time myself. My first associations with street preaching are the Hare Krishnas and the odd folks who walk around wearing signs that say "the end is near".

I assume things must be different in Australia. Can you tell me about that?

RDKirk · 2025-11-16T22:32:43-0600

Hans Blaster said:
It's an analytic frame work in the social sciences. It is not the only one. I am not a social scientist, I am a regular scientist. I don't use it and am not interested in CT-related paranoia.

I've had a discussion like this with you before. Your position basically boils down to saying you don't know anything about the subject, you're not interested in finding out, but you're going to give your opinions anyway.

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