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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

indeed, instead of that we see verses all speaking of eternal fire and we take them all as dealing with the subject we are studying.

Instead of merely ignoring whatever does not suit our preference.

This is the easy part.

Jude is also dealing with that same feature of the those who are not saved.

LOST/wicked PERSONS:
4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

you really don't have much wiggle room there. The author makes the very connections that your preferences do not tolerate
Didn’t ask for wiggle room. I explained in my post that Matt 25 and Jude are about people and both are about eternal punishment. I don’t see what it is you are arguing. In fact you seem to be agreeing with me.
Looks like it is the same great day of judgment that Jude speaks of.

Impossible to miss.
Not in the language of 2 Peter.
or the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah

Ezek 28 Satan destroyed and reduced to 'ashes on the Earth" as stated explicitly in Ezek 28.
But satan is not destroyed and turned to ashes instead is thrown into the same lake of fire as the beast, the false prophet, and the wicked to be tortured for ever (Rev. 20). So do you think that your interpretation of Ezekiel. 28 is correct given that you just put it in tension with Rev. 20? To put in tension is not a good thing.
The wicked destroyed as "ashes under your feet"

Mal 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.
You continue to interpret symbolic language literally. It seems that you just googled verses that contain the word “ashes” and are bundling them together to attempt to shore up your argument but all you are doing is mixing unrelated verses.
You seem to be digging the whole deeper for your own argument
Nah. I think you are getting more confused as you go.
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Any Ye / Kanye West fans here?

I recently listened to a high quality upload of Late Registration on YouTube and it blew my mind. Diamonds from Sierra Leone is incredible. I listened to the album before but I'm not much of an audiophile so the quality never meant much to me until now. I posted this in the Christian Music board because I also like Ye's gospel tracks.

Minnesota is drowning in fraud.

Here's more information that you might want to consider.

I don't know what you're getting at. I never said the thing in MN didn't happen or that it was okay if it did.
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Father, sons drowned teen daughter over her ‘Western lifestyle’

What area hasn't been ravaged by some form of Colonialism?

One could make a sound argument that Latin American countries, to a larger degree, and much more recently, have been impacted by that. Western interests were still meddling in their governments (in a big way, up to and including CIA backed coups) as recently as the 80's and 90's.

Instead of honor killings, central and south america have extremely powerful drug cartels. Is that better?

Either way, the lack of honor killings in South America would also be consistent with it being a regional cultural thing rather than a religious thing.

Why do we not see Catholic Theocracies down there enforcing Catholic law with the strictest possible interpretation, using the absolute harshest penalties known to man for minor infractions?

Maybe the catholics worked that out of their system 1,000 years ago?

Can we at least agree on the fact that of the two texts, the tone and "hero" of the story in Christianity is a much more benevolent and "softer" type of person, whereas the "hero" of the story in Islam was something of a warlord with ambitions of conquest?

The hero in the New Testament, sure. The heros in the OT, definitely not.

People have been trying to draw the link to "western colonialism" as some sort of destabilizing factor that allows fundamentalist Islam to take over in a region.

Allow me to bring up the following nations as a counterpoint:
Uzbekistan
Turkmenistan
Azerbaijan
Tajikistan

They were member states of the USSR (about the most "anti-West" "anti-Western Christian" entity that's existed in the last century -- they had state imposed atheism as a governing principle and their bedrock ideas were based on opposing "westernism" in efforts to create an equal society where "the bourgeoisie couldn't oppress the proletariat" and tearing down any oppression based on superficial characteristics)

What happened to the rights and treatment of women, gay people, and free thinkers in some of those countries after the Soviet Union dissolved and removed their influence from the area, and countries that were >75% Muslim were left to their own devices again to govern how they saw fit?
I never said "western".

Either way, we were talking about honor killings, not this. There are hoards of Christians in the US right now who praise strict rules like that and would implement them in the blink of an eye if given the chance. Here's a sitting congressman who did just that:

Those American Christians aren't better; they're just held in check by the rest of society.
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Each individual exhibited a form of creativity but sorry to dash your hopes but creativity is not some ethereal quality which science cannot explain.
I disagree with the meaning you are defining conscious experiences as. I don't think its about creativity. Thats a different aspect and one that can be linked to processes we can define redlating to form. It may be associated with consciousness.

But whatever is the conscious experience related to creativity it cannot be measured by science because the very nature of subjective experiences cannot be captured in material terms. So I think your conflating something thats not consciousness but a cognative intellectual process about defining the line between creative thinking and consciousness..
Einstein's brain was removed under the flimsy excuse it was part of the autopsy procedure of the hospital but turned into a full blown scientific investigation of how his brain varied from a typical brain, particularly Einstein's superior visual spatial reasoning which defined his creativity.
Still this is correlation and not accounting for the actual nature of conscious experiences. We can map out all the neural correlations of conscious experiences and know exactly what brain parts and wiring lights up. But none of this tells us anything about the nature of the experiences coming out of those firing mechanism. You cannot see the golden sunset in those brain activities. You have to ask the experiencer directly.

It is only the experiencer who is directly having that experience and gaining that knowledge from it. Like colorblind Mary. She could know everything about the brain activity but none of that gave her any experience or knowledge of colors. It was only when she could then see the color Red that she experienced it and gained new knowledge.
Brain FeatureTypical Human BrainEinstein’s BrainPossible Cognitive Advantage
Inferior Parietal Lobule (IPL)Normal size and folding; separated by a typical Sylvian fissure.Unusually large, highly folded, Sylvian fissure partly absent, giving more cortical area.Enhanced visual–spatial reasoning, mathematical intuition, and ability to mentally manipulate physical systems.
Parietal–Frontal IntegrationStandard boundaries and separation between frontal and parietal regions.More integrated parietal and frontal regions observed in images.Improved ability to combine abstract ideas, form mental models, and think conceptually.
Glial-to-Neuron Ratio (especially in Area 39)Average glial density; typical metabolic support.Higher glial density in some regions responsible for complex thought.Enhanced neural support for sustained reasoning, possibly enabling long periods of intense thought.
Corpus Callosum ThicknessTypical thickness and fiber density.Thicker in several regions, especially mid-body and isthmus.Better communication between hemispheres → integrative, cross-domain thinking.
Overall Cortical ComplexityTypical gyrification patterns.More complex folding in certain cognitive areas, especially parietal regions.Increased surface area for specialized processing → potentially greater cognitive capacity in specific domains.
Frontal Lobes (DLPFC areas)Typical prefrontal organization.Some evidence of unusually connected frontal-parietal networks.Improved working memory, planning, and conceptual synthesis.
Language Areas (Broca/Wernicke)Typical development.No major anomalies observed.Consistent with Einstein's own statements that he “thought in images, not words”—creativity rooted in visual reasoning rather than linguistic processing.
Overall Brain Size~1,350 g average adult male.~1,230 g (slightly smaller than average).Shows that size is not related to intelligence; efficiency and structure matter more.
All the above does is like mapping out the corelations of consciousness is tell us the technical data of what happens in the brain when we have a conscious experience. It tells us absolutely nothing about that experience or the knowledge that comes from it.
I want you to tell me the outcome of the ancient Egyptians transcendental ideas or experiences which according to you is manifested in the use of superior technology so where is it? I could just as easily state it is in the existing tools as confirmed by the archaeological evidence.
Thats silly. If I could tell you that then I would have cracked the Hard Problem of Consciousness and so far no one has come near to this.

All I can say is I have shown that there is an aspect of knowledge that material science cannot explain. So there is knowledge beyond the objective empiricle knowledge that tells us something about reality.
Lets throw a spanner into the works on the subject of Methological Naturalism which you mistakenly refer to as material science.
Methological naturalism deals with the naturalistic processes that are measurable through testing. That is matter, particles, chemicals, elements, forces and fields. So it is material or if you like physical in nature. Any non physical effect like consciousness is classed as an epiphenomena of the physical.
The Kahun Medical papyrus from the Middle Kingdom shows the Egyptians had developed a pregnancy test where women would urinate on barley and emmer-wheat seeds over several days. If the seeds sprouted indicated the women where pregnant.
Modern scientific studies indicate the test is up to 80% accurate and caused by increased levels of estrogen in the urine of pregnant women.

This is an example of the science of cause and effect, the ancient Egyptians only had the experience of observation which is the effect, they were not aware of Methological Naturalism and attributed the cause to magic.
Actually its now classed as science and not magic. But to the ancients this was like magic. For all we know it may well have been. If you consider that nature has a prenancy test available then it shows how much in nature are the solutions to almost anything. Thats like magic and especially to the ancients.

But none of this tells us anything about how they discovered such things. I am saying that because of their deep immersion in nature consciously that its no surprise they were discovering such things as they came to know how nature worked through an intimate relationship with in.

As opposed to material science when has to first collect a lot of data to work out how nature works in the first place by looking from the outside in. Then after centuries of information come to understand such things.
It highlights the fact the role of the supernatural in science is useless particularly when it is not falsifiable.
Yes I have been saying that for some time now. Science cannot tell us anything about the supernatural. Yet it is a reality and gives us knowledge that methological naturalism cannot tell us.

Science cannot falsify God or consciousness beyond the physical brain. That means it cannot claim it holds all the knowledge of nature and reality. That means as the ancients lived within this supernatural realm more often or completely they gained knowledge that we cannot get today from material sciences.

Well we can but its taken millenia. Even then we are still struggling with stuff like consciousness and phenomenal experiences like belief.

In some ways methological naturalism is hitting brick walls and is naturally looking at ideas that involve other dimensions that could almost be classed as supernatural. Like the idea that Mind or Consciousness or Information itself is fundemental reality that the material world eminates from.
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Minnesota is drowning in fraud.

I'm pretty sure I said I prefer this sort of fraud:




Why do you keep linking to different articles about the same story?
Here's more information that you might want to consider.

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Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

If we consider the fact that God is outside of time, and He is not bound or governed by any laws of nature as His creation is. Then if we consider that God created time, at the same time that He created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning", this is when time began. And God has appointed an end to time itself as well.

I'm not suggesting that God had a begging, we know He is outside of time and He is not a part of anything He created, He is separate to His creation so He is nothing like we are.

The reason, those who are cast into hell will be tormented in fire for ever and ever, is because they continue to sin while they are being punished and that means they are heaping more coals of fire on their head.

They actually blaspheme the name of God while He punishes them, just like we hear unbelievers blaspheme the name of God when they burn themselves with a hot coffee or hit their thumb with a hammer, but the pain is much worse in hell so their blasphemy is much worse, and they never reach a time when they find the peace in their heart to repent.

It's actually impossible to find peace in your heart which would allow you to repent while you are in excruciating pain, so all they can do is scream out blasphemies against God, and that keeps their condemnation building up perpetually forevermore.

Time will cease to exist, when Christ returns to judge the world. All of mankind will step into eternity, and time won't exist anymore. Those who abide in the spiritual realm (the Angels) are already outside of time.


At the end of this age, Christ will return, the dead will be resurrected, the final judgment will occur, and the eternal state (new heaven and new earth) will begin immediately.

Matthew 24:35: Jesus states, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away".

2 Peter 3:10: This verse describes the "day of the Lord" when "the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed".

Revelation 21:1, 4: John's vision describes a definitive end to the current order: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away... He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away".

Yet even our terminology to describe the state of things to come is temporal terminology. And so is our thinking on the matter. But, it's ok. We really can't help ourselves. But it is good to keep a skeptical eye on our own conclusions. It is easier to say what such things are not, than to say what they are.
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Christian Homelessness

Things have gotten laughably insane for me in a very short amount of time. It's not like I'm struggling with my faith, in fact I feel more detached from the world than ever. I am likely going to be living in a truck pretty soon. It seems to me that Jesus was homeless during His ministry. Are there any other writings about feeling closer to God during homelessness besides Matthew 8:20 and Luke 9:58? Are there saints or church fathers who wrote anything about it? Is anyone here homeless?
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"Who" is Jacob's Ladder? (Genesis 28:10-22 and John 1:51)

GENESIS 28:10-22


In this study, we see that Jacob is on his way to Haran to find himself a wife (or two). He is tired after a long day's journey. He stops to rest outside of a city called “Luz” (almond trees), and scripture says that he settles down for the night and takes “of the stones” (m'avenei) and puts “one” under his head for a pillow. I am sure that he chose a large, flat one, wrapped his tunic around it, and put his head down. Perhaps the stone was still warm from the heat of the day, and he went to sleep and dreamed.....

But before we get to the dream, I'd like to note that in all English translations, the number “one” appears which states that he took “one” stone, yet the Hebrew does not give a certain number, the word “m'avenei” is used meaning “of the stones” It could be that he took one “of the stones” or a few “of the stones”. All we know is that he went to sleep and dreamed a strange dream. We all know the story of “Jacob's Ladder”; we have read it in Bible storybooks and from the Torah itself. Yet I think that the title is misleading; it wasn't “Jacob's Ladder” at all, it was “God's ladder.” Jacob was just a witness to seeing it, and the activity that surrounded it.

The Word says that the ladder was grounded on the earth and the top reached Heaven, and angels went up and down the ladder. Then it says that YHVH stood at the top of the ladder and spoke, saying, “Ani YHVH. Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak” (I am the LORD, God of Abraham, God of Isaac). The same promise that was given to Abraham and Isaac is now being repeated to Ya'akov.

The word “ladder” in Hebrew is “SULAM” in gematria, which equals the sum of 136. The words “Tzom” (fasting) “Kol” (voice), and “Mammon” (money) also sum to “136”. So how do these words speak of Yeshua? Yeshua “Fasted” for 40 days and 40 nights in the desert, he “voiced” his prayers to His Father in Heaven, and he taught about money, and “Tzedakah” (deeds of kindness) “it is more blessed to give than receive” he taught that we must put money in its proper perspective, since the “LOVE” of money is the root of all evil, he taught that one should be “content” with the wages received, (when speaking to the Roman soldier).

The land where he is currently located will be his possession and that of his descendants. The title and deed of the Land of Israel pertain to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. YHVH said it, case closed! The rest of the people who live there are “residents,” not owners! YHVH likens the descendants of Jacob to the “dust of the earth.” Why dust? Dust cannot be counted, ever try to count a “speck of dust?” dust will “last forever” also, lay something out in the desert for 1000 years, a car for example, in 1000 years, the car will be no more, probably not even a trace of it will be left, because the “dust” will have, in a way of speaking, “eaten it”. The dust is also “trodden upon.”

“Am Yisrael” (The people of Israel) will be forever, as our faith in our “Mashiach m'Yisrael” (Messiah from Israel) is an everlasting faith, which will endure forever. Israel has also been “trodden on,” stepped on, and mistreated, yet when all is gone and vanished, Israel will be forever. Scripture also says that Israel will be spread abroad to the North, South, East, and West. In other words, “All over the world,” and we have seen just that today.

We have Jewish people in all nations of the world, integrated among all the nations, taking the Torah with them, and the belief in ONE GOD (Echad). We have three major Jewish peoples: “Sephardim” from Spain, North Africa, and the Middle East. “Ashkenazim” from Germany and Eastern Europe, and “Falashim” from Ethiopia and other African countries. The Torah says, “In thy seed will all the families of the earth be blessed.

Who is the Seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Yeshua! He was of the seed of these patriarchs! And we are all blessed by HIM, whose one-time sacrifice for sin saved us all from eternal separation from YHVH. His name “YESHUAH” is “Salvation” from YAH.

When Jacob awoke from his dream, he stood the “stone” that he placed as a pillow, “upright” and anointed it with oil, calling that place “Beit-El” (House of God).

The word “stone” in Hebrew is “AVEN,” which is a combination of two words, AV (father) and BEN (Son), Father and Son as ONE (Echad). The anointing of the “Stone” reminds us of the anointing of YESHUA as Messiah, teacher of Torah, healer, and redeemer. He is the SOLID ROCK.

Something else we might notice is that the "stone" was laid flat as a pillow for Jacob's head. It must have absorbed the heat of the sun during the day, and at night, when the temperature drops, served as a "heated pillow." Once Jacob awoke, he put the stone upright. We might see some symbolism in Messiah Yeshua/Jesus, placed "flat" in the tomb, lying down upon the stone floor, and then, being "raised up" from the dead, to life again. He is the "Aven", he is the "Solid Rock" of Salvation.

The ladder itself is symbolic. The sages and rabbis of old liken the ladder to “Moshe climbing up to the top of Sinai to receive the Commandments carved in STONE, and later, went up again for 40 days and nights to receive the whole Torah, which he later wrote down. He went UP, and YHVH came DOWN. We liken this unto “Yeshua the Living WORD, the living TORAH”. Other rabbis imagine the ladder as having 22 steps, each step being a letter of the Alef-Bet, the Hebrew Alphabet. Since all letters form words, we look again at Yeshua, who is the “living WORD, the living TRUTH The ladder is the “WAY up, and the WAY down. Yeshua said, “I AM the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father but by ME.”

We can also see the first coming of Messiah Yeshua/Jesus to Earth. He came DOWN to live among men and women, to teach the Torah, to heal the sick and raise the dead, and to die for our sins. He went UP from the grave, conquered the curse of sin and death, and returned UP to heaven from the Mt. of Olives

The word “ladder” in Hebrew is “SULAM” in gematria, which equals the sum of 136. The words “Tzom” (fasting) “Kol” (voice), and “Mammon” (money) also sum to “136”. So how do these words speak of Yeshua? Yeshua “Fasted” for 40 days and 40 nights in the desert, he “voiced” his prayers to His Father in Heaven, and he taught about money, and “Tzedakah” (deeds of kindness) “it is more blessed to give than receive” he taught that we must put money in its proper perspective, since the “LOVE” of money is the root of all evil, he taught that one should be “content” with the wages received, (when speaking to the Roman soldier).

How do these words speak of our relationship with Yeshua? We first come to “Salvation” (Yeshuah) through “Prayer” (voice) of repentance (tefilah/ teshuva), and there are times when we must “fast” to get prayers answered, and we fast on Yom Kippur. We “give money” through tithes and offerings to our local church/synagogue to keep it going. But who or what is the ladder really? Is there a correct answer? It is in the Brit HaDashah (New Testament). JOHN 1:51: Then He said,

“I assure you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the 'Son of Man'.


What is this “ascending and descending” mean? Could this have a meaning? All things, activities, and actions have meaning. One way we might look at this is that all angels are at the disposition of our Messiah. They serve Him day and night; they are also in our service, which is why we each have “guardian angels”. The angels going up the ladder might be because they are receiving instructions from Yeshua, and the ones going down might be carrying out the instructions (just an idea). This also reminds us of John 14:6;

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."


Who
was at the top of the ladder? YHVH (God himself), and if the ladder is "Yeshua" himself, then John 14:6 makes complete sense. He is the "way" to the "Father". Have you chosen to climb that ladder? Not to worry, you won't fall off. Our relationship with the LORD is "one step, one rung at a time."

Quartodecimanism: Myths and Facts

But the decision was controversial, with some Christians refusing to abide by it.

Some Quartodecimians refused to abide by it, but like Arians, their disobedience of Nicaea caused them to become anathema as soon as the First Ecumenical Synod was accepted as ecumenical by the ancient churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Cyprus, and the newly reinstated church in Jerusalem.

Fact: The Evangelist Matthew's community were Torah-keepers, but there is no evidence connecting them to the Roman Province of Asia.

False: St. Matthew the Apostle and Evangelist spread the Gospel to Parthia, Pontus, and Ethiopia, where he was martyred. Also, contrary to popular opinion, the version of the Gospel of Matthew we have was originally written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew.
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Amnesia

Because we base our understanding of what we will be on who we are now and that will not be the case. So what is it about us now that God will rework and if it is known,, why do we waste time with theology if we can live or apply it now? Did not Jesus give us two commandments saying just that?
Good point, though I still don't get how it relates to the op, but anyhow: What you just said is theology. :p
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Minnesota is drowning in fraud.

Do you prefer THIS kind of fraud?



Those dang Democrats

I'm pretty sure I said I prefer this sort of fraud:


Or what do you think about these accusations of fraud?


Why do you keep linking to different articles about the same story?
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