Daniel Marsh said:

welcome

Click to expand...

Thanks. Tilted at imaginary degrees right now.

David Hine7 said:

It's 2 x oneMpc x C/Pi^21 = 71 to the rescue of cosmology

Click to expand...

After all this I still have no idea why you would multiply those particular numbers together, and what they have to do with God.

I call it 'growing up'

Fervent said:

It's a feeling, an feeling of emotional connection. But still nothing more than a feeling.

Click to expand...

Yet again, it's not a feeling. Otherwise you'd be able to say what sort of feeling it is. You can't. It's an understanding of how you feel. I know you'll feel pain and some dismay. I might be happy about it or I may not. There is no moral aspect to it. That is to be determined.

Fervent said:

So what bridges the gap?

Click to expand...

No, we won't go there yet. You disagree with my very first premise. You can't say that the premise somehow contains the moral conclusion and then go on to say 'what bridges the gap' between the premise and the conclusion. It makes absolutely no sense to say that the one contains the other and then ask how you get from one to the other.

Once you agree that there is no moral conclusion in 'I know you'll feel pain and anger' then you can ask where we go from there (despite the fact that I've explained it at least twice).

Fervent said:

Why do I need to put forward a case?

Click to expand...

Because this is a forum where we exchange ideas. And hey, here comes yours now...

Fervent said:

Mine's simple, God determines what is an isn't moral.

Click to expand...

We'll get back to that in due course because I don't want any distractions from getting you to agree about the premise and the conclusion as noted above.

Perpetual Student said:

Is that the job description of a President of the United States of America: trolling the left?
We speak of someone who controls the biggest military force, the biggest nuclear arsenal and the biggest economy. We speak of someones who's word matters. And you cheer when we see more strolling than serious talk?

Is that what you want, a troll as president?

Click to expand...

Ive already answered that kind of question.

There's significance in the term 'daughters.' Sodom's daughters live on. The daughters are restored. The Sodomites had children living outside the city. Their children prosper & are restored. Sodom is restored by her daughters being restored. I don't see a 'failed prophecy'. There are not any

It happened then. He's telling them they will see it to bring them shame. They saw the descendants restored & prospering. It was like God's judgement on Sodom had been forgotten, just part of an old scroll.

Servus said:

They could easily decide that a surefire way to prevent this from happening again is to put more republicans in the senate.

Click to expand...

Thats a good idea!

It sounds like you're doing it right. I don't think you're being lukewarm. You're trying to take a stand & being kind about it. They don't like your stand & are trying to pull you in. Don't fall for it.

"Inclusion" usually means "not Christian"

rambot said:

ok....and the other 3 or 4?

It's funny how you keep trying to shift blame when Republicans, again, have FAR more power in this situation to feed the poor.

Click to expand...

And what responsibility do the Democrats bear for not privid8ng enough votes to pass the resolution to keep the government open and SNAP flowing? Any?

ViaCrucis said:

What MAGA wants is to deny healthcare to American citizens, and Democrats are refusing to give in

Click to expand...

Why on God's green Earth would they want to do that?

JSRG said:

Which isn't evidence. It's just saying they'll lose money, and then (without explaining what kind of calculations arrived at this) that this will cost the government more money than it's saving.

Click to expand...

The effective tax rate on corporations is 16%. Even if we're generous and assume some companies are magically exempt from taxes or didn't make a profit and assume an average rate of only 10%, that's $800 million on $8 billion of lost income. Even if we assumed 1%, that's $80 million -- still more than the $52 million that the pennies cost to produce.

Sportsballfan said:

https://www.fns.usda.gov/

View attachment 372405

Click to expand...

This is a lie.

Undocumented immigrants are not, and never have been, given healthcare. These are MAGA lies. What MAGA wants is to deny healthcare to American citizens, and Democrats are refusing to give in. As a result, Republicans are holding millions of Americans' food assistance hostage.

That's the reality.

Login to view embedded media
-CryptoLutheran

prodromos said:

I have lost all respect for you.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I can't ignore the things going on in my own country. I can't simply ignore my conscience. I can't turn a blind eye toward evil. I can't pretend I don't see what I see and know what I know.

My government is shut down, people aren't getting paid, and millions of my fellow countrymen are going to go without food because the Republicans want to throw a tantrum.

They want to rob my neighbors of healthcare, and because Democrats refuse to bow and kneel to their demands, they have shut down the government, and are now millions of people are going to suffer.

There's a dictator running my country right now, and using federal agents as his own private police force--they are marching in the street, they are assaulting men, women, and children, including Christian clergy. They are assaulting the disabled, they are illegally detaining my neighbors, my fellow countrymen, citizens, legal residents, immigrants (legal or undocumented, it doesn't matter).

My country is on fire right now.

I can't afford to play nice with people who want to see my neighbors erased, who want to purge America of people based on the color of their skin, or because of their political views.

This isn't politics. This is good and evil. This is a battle, and it's a war fought against fascism in America, against fascists.

If I lose friends, that's fine. At the end of the day all I can do is abide by conscience, and trust in God's mercy. I do not believe it is acceptable for a Christian to be on the side of tyranny and oppression. My God came down and walked with prostitutes, associated with losers, and commanded I welcome the foreigner without reservation.

The Incarnation means I am morally obligated to side with the oppressed, not the oppressor.

-CryptoLutheran

David Lamb said:

But the bread does indeed remain bread. Writing about the Lord's Supper, Paul said to the Corinthian church:

“For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.” (1Co 11:26 NKJV)

It was still bread when they ate it.

But the laying on of hands was not Paul's calling to apostleship, but to set him and Barnabas apart for missionary work.

Click to expand...

Has anyone mentioned that Jesus Christ was an apostle, and why? Hebrews 3:1 Perhaps that might make it clear that the term 'apostle' is not used to refer to any and every Christian, but specifically to those specially selected, and sent forth.
Those specially selected and sent forth, were... Jesus - sent forth by God; the 12 - sent forth by Jesus; Paul - sent forth by Jesus.
Like you previously said, David, no other person was specially chosen and sent forth by God or Jesus, subsequent to the foremost apostle - Jesus Christ.
Has anyone used the scriptures to show otherwise?

Regarding the idea of cannibalism, the disciples who had their mind on their belly, they too, misunderstood Jesus words at John 6:26-66
What about today... nearly 2,000 years later... especially after the death of the apostles, and the great apostasy? 1 Thessalonians 2:3-12

Aldebaran said:

Glad you agree.

Click to expand...

I see you're unfamiliar with the literary device known as sarcasm, even when visual aids are given to help convey that tone. You may want to do some research into the topic, for your own future reference.

Aldebaran said:

Health care subsidies wouldn't be an issue if Obamacare actually was affordable.

Click to expand...

You do realize that the ACA doesn't provide health insurance, right? It provides a marketplace for private insurers (many for-profit insurers), and those private insurers determine the price. You are aware of how that works, right?

Aldebaran said:

But now Democrats are leveraging food subsidies for obamacare band-aids. Nice trade!

Click to expand...

Not really, since SNAP benefits can still be provided despite the government shutdown. Republicans have always had the funds available for that.

Aldebaran said:

Whataboutism.


Another whataboutism.


More whataboutisms.
Back on topic.....

Click to expand...

Yeah, pointing out that Republicans aren't acting in good faith here is a whataboutism. Good job avoiding responsibility.

-- A2SG, then again, they're only mirroring the party's leader in that....

2PhiloVoid said:

You didn't actually listen to what she said. I can tell because you skirted by two substantive sources (both women) whom Elizabeth cited.

Click to expand...

Ok sorry I switched it off just before the end as I had understood the gist of what the video was saying. So you mean Rebecca Mc Louchlan I think the author of 'Women through the eyes of Jesus".

Biblical Bookword didn't give her a great rating and disagreed with some of the ways the book looked into this issue. ie not addressing the more controversial verses. So if this is one of the substancive sources then I am not sure what you mean.

But there were other women you may be referring to like the two Mary's, Martha, Joan and Eve. So I am not sure which you are referring to as the two women.

2PhiloVoid said:

Unjust male dominance is what it is, by any name or label we want to attach to it, and this is the case no matter who it is that is doing the labeling.

Click to expand...

Then pewrhaps it should be labelled exactly what it is rather than a word that carries so much baggage that it distorts the lens before we start.

2PhiloVoid said:

In fact, the precursor theology for what I'm saying should be evident to anyone who reads about the Family of Cain in the book of Genesis, with Lamech being a prime example of how things ought not to be between men and women but have so often been in human history .... with King Solomon being yet another clear example.

Click to expand...

Who can we say was perfect in their relations in how they treated others. Ah Mary. And Jesus of course. A few others came pretty close. Enoch and Elijah were taken straight to heaven so they must have done something right. Though Noah was less than perfect he and his family were the only ones saved from the flood.

I am not sure citing biblical verses is the best way to fully understand this issue. I think other domains can add clarity and understanding like science and lived reality need to also be included.

Based on the idea that we should be more aware and able to decern today more than any other time through enlightenment and just sheer experiences over history. But I think mostly by what is actually happening in our times. .

2PhiloVoid said:

Perhaps, but no one here is saying we must use Critical Theory and/or Woke-ism to provide a lens. Instead, we can use Critical Realism as a mode for our ventures into the underlying social studies needed.

Click to expand...

Ok so how I see it is that we know different periods in history had different cultural and social norms. No 1 we know that a cultural or social lens is itself a subject or relative in the case of other religions and cultures.

It is not something we can cite facts or objective reality about. The very nature is subjective and experiential for whatever period or nation we are looking at. Or even down to the level of political party or denomination or even individual.

So to begin with we are coming at this from what most people call Postmodernism as the underlying lens. So its not as if there is any clear fact or truth about how people are counter citing verses and the different beliefs even political views which can be partisan. Or just personal experiences and feelings.

So therefore we need a tie breaker. Or as many other factors as we can know. Like objective reality itself which often aligns with natural laws and biblical truths. But also plain old empirical science. How the psychology and sociology can determine patterns of thinking and what causes groups within society to disagree or motivates them to believe what they believe.

It is actually a can or worms if you begin to peel back these layers of the different aspects of human and group behaviour dynamics that gives insight. That includes many areas like political science, all the behavioural sciences. In this way we begin to get a balance view and not just an ideological one that can often be biased and distorted.

2PhiloVoid said:

I don't even understand what this has to do with anything being talked about between us this morning.

Click to expand...

Do you mean my post on how Feminism has morphed into Woke and all that. Or my reply to your video where I was saying I don't think citing bible verses is enough to be the sole basis for making determinations about gender and roles and all that.

Because both sides can cite verses and then it becomes a battle of who has the most truthful verse. Which is really a subjective determination and thats why it never gets resolved that way.

The video seemed to be doing the same. There was a lot I could see was a subjective determination based on whatever, person beliefs or views, environment, conditioning depending what side of politics or personal experiences that tainted the determinations I thought. Well at least I know there will be people who have another take and then well it gets into back and forth subjective opinions.

2PhiloVoid said:

There's no agreement because folks like you put principle before practice. I reverse this order, with praxis coming first, and I thereby arrive at principle.

Click to expand...

Ah see this is what I mean. The 'us and them'. This is exactly the identity politics I am talking about. What do you mean people like me lol. That sounds as though there are certain people out there that need to be stopped. They are evil. Or truthfully wrong.

In fact I don't even know what you mean by 'people like you' lol. Its so ambigious and all inclusive. Or like facts in science and how some belittle groups based on their belief that the world is flat. Watch out for those people they are whackos lol.

Principle before practice. As though its coming from some NGO policy and practice. I am not sure what you even mean by practice. Is this living as Christs example. Or is this being pragmatic and dealing with whats in front of you. Or some practice ethos some government agency has that underlies their principles.

Why can't people hold equal weights of each or even hold principles as higher but still practice. Or put into practice their beliefs in everyday reality which are the principles. Why make it about this or that.

2PhiloVoid said:

If you think this is the case, then start doing so. Maybe take the time to retrace what your professors taught you in college about proper methodology in social and historical studies.

Click to expand...

Hum, I already know this and the assumption that I am missing something and whatever else you think I am lol is your mind not mine. I was not just saying Christians should step back from all the culture wars.

I also mean as per the teachings. The fundemental teachings we can all agree on relating to Christ and the disciples teachings which form the basis for Christianity and Christs church.

2PhiloVoid said:

The main problem in most of today's cultural conflict is the mainstreaming of anti-Christian unbelief. It's not due to feminine emotions (which, biblically speaking, God created), nor is it due to the advocacy for social justice (which, biblically speaking, God demands).

Click to expand...

Well yes God created our emotions as they are part of us. But emotions can be experienced differently in genders. Thats a fact which needs to be acknowledged and taken into consideration. Along with other factors relating to the sciences and natural laws.

I disagree that its an either/or choice. Its all the above and equally so as far as their possible influence. The more data the better I think and then we see patterns of behaviour on a social and cultural and human wide level.

So I am not sure the 'mainstreaming of anti-Christian unbelief' is the only factor. Certainly a factor. But we all know there is mainstreaming of Jew and Christian hate as well. Or just mainstreaming of hate and division full stop through the age of media and social media.

Its a weird situation. I sense there is even support for other religions like Islam over Christians. We know of the bias and targeting of Christians by the State. This is at the level of institution which is not good and actually shows that though not a religion the State on the back of the prevailing secular social norms of the time. Can act in ways that are like a religion.

So I think there are 101 mainstreamings of all different sorts being thrown around. I think this age more than any other time is an age where people can easily be fooled with all the fake news and narratives and media bias. The power of social media to make what is fringe mainstream. Its a scary world for Christians and more than ever they have to be sure of the truth.

That is why I think stepping back and especially after Kirks murder. Step back reflect and really think about what it means to be a Christian.

Plus I think the ways things are going that Christians will be forced socially to reprove their faith. So hopefully many will get back to basics and be more Christlike.

Part of that I think is to just get on with being Christlike and His church. Nevermind all the other different beliefs and views in the world. Theres only one to worry about. Do this and allow others to do whatever it is they choose to do and God will sort out the rest.

Jesus even said this to his diciples when he sent them out to preach to the world. That if they entered a town or place that disgreed or was hostile to the message. Then wipe your feet of that town and move on to the next as they will welcome you.

I think it was Clement who gave the best sign of Christs church. He said where there is unity of mind and spirit there Christ resides. With so much division today you wonder where Christ is.

PS can you tell me if I passed the test. Did I get the two women sources correct. I am sure I got them all so they must be among those women .

Servus said:

I'm talking about the church Jesus Christ established through his Apostles. That church did not have seventh-day sabbath keeping. If that's supposed to be wrongdoing against Christ, then the conclusion has to be that Christianity failed immediately. Which is what many sabbath keepers go wo with. The idea that they, and not Christ's apostles, have proper discernment and are doing the will of Christ. That must be pretty ego boosting.

Click to expand...

But they did keep God's Sabbath according to the Bible.

They kept God's Holy Feast of Pentecost. They had to count "7 Sabbath's" to know when to gather.

Ignoring this Biblical Fact, doesn't make it void.