Studyman said:

Rom. 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

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Perfectly said...

Thank you @Studyman and Paul.

Abraham1st said:

You deny all I show you clare73, and I can correct all you are able to ever speak about, as long as the Lord gives me the answers to answer you with.

True saving faith remains true, or it does fall away, that is why both chapters you quote here speak of believing in the promises of God because BY FAITH THEY STAND.

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If they fall, it's because their faith was counterfeit, it was not true saving faith, because true saving faith stands, because it is preserved by the Holy Spirit (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14), and they did not stand. . .therefore, their faith was not true saving faith preserved by the Holy Spirit, it was counterfeit faith.

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .counterfeit faith is no faith (Mt 7:22-23), it's counterfeit, not real.

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Yes, it is NO FAITH, NEVER WAS REAL.

Clare73 said:

that is precisely an example of counterfeit faith. . .it was a "faith" that did not save.
Read it again. . .they claimed to be doing it in Jesus' name (Mt 7:22-23), that's a statement of faith.

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That is not a statement of faith, neither was it a faith, of any sort, and it 100 PERCENT was not a faith that FALLS AWAY.


clare73 said: It has everything to do with an example of counterfeit faith which you deny. . .counterfeit faith is also the faith that falls away from the belief one once had.



They never had a faith, it therefore cant fall away. (NO BELIEF WAS ONCE OR EVER HAD BY MANY FALSE PROPHET/WORKERS OF INIQUITYUNGODLINESS/FAITHLESSNESS.)

It's not too late to make things worse! I'm sure we can push it to an extinction-level event if we try. Don't give up.

Dikaioumenoi said:

No, the OP does not make any contention about temporal sequence. In fact, I specifically said in the OP that "this does not ... deny the simultaneous experience of these realities in human perception." The key point is that John's grammar expresses logical priority.


Correct, "when" is not the issue. John's point expresses a logical relationship, not a chronological sequence. The argument is not that believing "did not start in the past." The argument is that believing -- whenever it begins -- presupposes being born again as its logical cause. The one characterized as "the believing one" is so because he "has been born of God." That's what the grammar of the text is conveying.


Where have I argued for "believing after salvation"?

Your examples reflect a misunderstanding of the argument in the OP. Each of these verses uses aorists to describe events in experience or outward sequence, not gnomic statements employing a perfect passive indicative. The semantic core of the perfect tense in Greek denotes a completed past action with abiding results (think γέγραπται, "it is written..." -- literally, "has been written," emphasizing that the writing being quoted was completed in the past but continues to exist and remain relevant). This is distinct from a simple aorist, which typically narrates completed events without necessarily highlighting their effects.

Eph. 1:13 narrates the act of believing as completed by the time of sealing. This does not imply that the believer generated that ability independently. This text is fully consistent with the logical priority of sealing presupposing God enabling belief.

Rom. 10:13-15 addresses the outward hearing and calling of the gospel, not the internal, sovereign work of God producing faith. Again, fully consistent with the principle that those who believe do so because God has worked in them.

1 Cor. 1:21 emphasizes the effectiveness of God's wisdom in salvation. Belief is the channel through which salvation is experienced, yet this is still consistent with belief presupposing God's logically prior enabling work.

Nothing in these passages denies that regeneration underlies the believer's ability to respond. The logic of 1 John 5:1 (among other text we could go to as well) remains: faith does not originate independently but is God-given and effectual.

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Regardless of the lexical argument in this verse, the experience still ends up being chronological, even though it may seem simultaneous, for these reasons:
1. According to 1 Cor. 2:14-16, a person must first be spiritual (i.e. made spiritual by God) in order to understand the gospel enough to believe and obey it.
2. Eph. 2:5 implies that "dead in sin" means unbelieving state of mind (and heart), that God regenerates the person in that spiritually dead state, resulting in spiritual life, and ability to believe the gospel preached.
3. No one can decide to believe something they don't believe. They must first be convinced of the truth of the narrative before they will ever choose to believe it. Therefore, being convinced of the gospel, they are simply choosing to believe what they already believe, since they have been persuaded. The persuasion comes first (God regenerating), then the faith comes after (choosing to believe and obey).

Again, since the gospel is spiritually discerned, the only way a person can believe it is if God regenerates them by the indwelling Holy Spirit and enables them to believe in their heart, which they do because God has revealed it to them. God is the one who creates the spiritual ears to hear the gospel and believe.

With this understanding, not only is "has been born of God" logically the cause of "believes," but it is also chronologically prior. It may be true that chronology can't be extracted from the lexical argument of 1 Jn. 5:1, but contextually and hermeneutically, it can't be otherwise.

Fantine said:

One million doesn't buy much house.

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They should move out also:



Great Restaurants - good communities and 43% less expensive in cost of living.

SabbathBlessings said:

Still doesn't delete what Jesus said plainly.

God wrote a new covenant established on better promises Heb8:6 no Scripture says it is established on all brand new laws,

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Jesus called it "new" (Jn 13:34-35).

Clare73 said:

It has everything to do with an example of counterfeit faith which you deny. . .counterfeit faith is also the faith that falls away from the belief one once had. True saving faith does not fall away (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14). . .only counterfeit faith falls away.

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You deny all I show you clare73, and I can correct all you are able to ever speak about, as long as the Lord gives me the answers to answer you with.


True saving faith remains true, or it does fall away, that is why both chapters you quote here speak of believing in the promises of God because BY FAITH THEY STAND.

Again we desire to be clothed upon and NOT FOUND NAKED, that is the earnest/CONVICTION of the Spirit, THAT WE WALK BY FAITH.



2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight



The gospel of our salvation, we believe, to be sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, the earnest/CONVICTIO of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Apostle Paul hearing of their faith says he always prays for them that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, MAY GIVE UNTO THEM THE SPURT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM, FOR THEIR EYES TO BE ENLIGHTENED.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints

Postvieww said:

Legalized prostitution, defund the police, shut down prisons, raise taxes by nine billion dollars, freeze the rent, free busing, government run grocery stores. Caught lying about his aunt being afraid to ride the subway, raising money for pro Hamas organization, threatened to arrest leader of Israel. How is this communist con man good for NY? Login to view embedded media

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His name isn’t Cuomo or Sliwa.

Abraham1st said:

Yes read it again with me clare73, or anyone struggling to understand clare73.

The emphasis and purpose here are FALSE PROPHETS. (THEY OF COURSE HAVE NO FAITH WHATSOEVER AND NEVER HAD ANY.)

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Precisely. . .counterfeit faith is no faith (Mt 7:22-23), it's counterfeit, not real.

bèlla said:

They’re having it hard down there. Look up anti gringo protests. They’re rallying against gentrification and want Americans out.

~bella

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....they want Americans and wealthy Mexicans out of previously affordable neighborhoods....

More germaine to the topic is the Mexican experience of going to war with the cartels starting with President Calderon in 2006. It was a bloody conflict that resulted in tens of thouands of innocent Mexicans being killed in the cross fire. Most Americans were oblivious of the carnage, which, after all, is a consequence of our demand for illegal drugs. And of course Mexico is not alone....from Colombia to El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala many people who had nothing to do with drug trafficking have died.

...and now Hegseth thinks blowing up boats will deter the drug cartels? Hardly, The boats and their occupants are disposable. As they have for decades, the cartels will simply start avoiding the US military and use other means to move their product.

iluvatar5150 said:

Silly goose. Cities aren't "real America."

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Right. Except for the uber wealthy who are real America and deserve our empathy even though they apparently have no loyalty to the society around them and will just pack up and leave when their expensive big city becomes 2% more expensive to live in.

Fantine said:

The Myth That Mamdani Will Cause New York City’s Richest to Leave - The American Prospect

Millionaire tax flight would devastate a future Mamdani administration. If the rich leave, how could anything be financed? But research shows that wealthy individuals move at lower rates than others, even in response to higher personal income taxes.

prospect.org

And that makes sense. When you can afford to live anywhere, cities offer the wealthy a great quality of life--a quality of life that will only improve when Momdani's changes improve the quality of life for everyone else.

Momdani, Bernie, and AOC held a huge rally last night. If only Momdani had been born in the US instead of Nigeria, he would be just about perfect.

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Legalized prostitution, defund the police, shut down prisons, raise taxes by nine billion dollars, freeze the rent, free busing, government run grocery stores. Caught lying about his aunt being afraid to ride the subway, raising money for pro Hamas organization, threatened to arrest leader of Israel. How is this communist con man good for NY? Login to view embedded media

Hentenza said:

Don’t forget about the martyrs under the altar (Rev. 6:9).

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Well the thing about those martyrs, is that since no prophecy is of any private exposition, according to 2 Peter 1:20, we don’t know to what extent Revelation is speaking about Heaven, or the World to Come, and to what extent it is typological or metaphorical and to what extent it is literal, except insofar as the early church did at the Council of Constantinople intend to exclude Chiliasm, after the fourth century fathers realized that such an interpretation was a misreading (in contrast to some 2nd century fathers such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons who believed in it - but church fathers are individually not infallible, for example, there exists a very minor disagreement between St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great over the pastoral care of military veterans, with most people likely supporting St. Athanasius, but some pacifists would likely support St. Basil, and since the issue is not formally resolved, it remains in the realm of theologoumemna (or what the Lutherans might call Adiaphora). Or on a more serious note, where a church father made actual errors, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian expressed support for Apokatastasis.

David Hine7 said:

A reciprocal is simply dividing something into one. That something cannot be expressed as anything else. So Ho is a distance speed something, so to suit your agenda you choose to only preserve the time aspect. That's either CHEATING or ERROR or BOTH, is it not? So can miles per hour be expressed as hours in the reciprocal?? A reciprocal of anything must be convertible back to the original "something", whatever that was. I should not have to guess the orignal, should I?

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Ho is distance divided by time (i.e. velocity) all divided by distance. The distance units cancel out, leaving only inverse time.

Clare73 said:

that is precisely an example of counterfeit faith. . .it was a "faith" that did not save.
Read it again. . .they claimed to be doing it in Jesus' name (Mt 7:22-23), that's a statement of faith.

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Yes read it again with me clare73, or anyone struggling to understand clare73.

The emphasis and purpose here are FALSE PROPHETS. (THEY OF COURSE HAVE NO FAITH WHATSOEVER AND NEVER HAD ANY.)

Jesus then goes into a lot of detail how to KNOW FALSE PROPHETS.

THE FALSE PROPHET GATHERS THORNS AND THISTLES.

THE FALSE PROPHET IS A CORRUPT TREE AND BRINGS FORTH EVIL FRUIT. ( THE EVIL/CORRUPT TREE NEVER HAD FAITH, NONE WHATSOEVER SO NEVER COULD BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT.

WHEREBY BY THEIR FRUITS WE SHALL KNOW THEM. ( THE FALSE PROPHETS WE ARE TO BEWARE OF.)

The FALSE PROPHETS SAY LORD LORD TO JESUS, but they don't do the will of the Father, and it is MANY FALSE PROPHETS, saying to Jesus, did they not do PROPHESY, (MANY FALSE PROPHETS.) the FALSE PROPHET claims to have CAST OUT DEVILS in HIs name, the FALSE PROPHET claims to have done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS in His name. (THE FALSE PROPHET CANT DO MANY WONDERFU WORKS, THEY LIE, AND ARE LYING, BUT JESUS EMPHASISED HOW TO KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS, WHICH ARE THORNS AND THISTLES=WORKERS OF INIQUITY.)

Jesus PROFESSES to them, He NEVER KNEW THEM.

Jesus ends the chapter summing up the VERY SAME, how those who hear HIs sayings and do them are founded on a rock.

(THE FALSE PROPHETS ARE FOUNDED ON SAND, AS THEY HEAR BUT NEVER DID THEM/NEVER HAD FAITH.)

(BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS/MANY SHALL SAY UNTO ME IN THAT DAY/MANY FALSE PROPHETS SHALL RISE AND DECEIVE MANY. BECAUSE INIQUITY SHALL ABOUND THE LOVE OF MANY SHALL WAX COLD/ I SHALL PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.)

I SHALL PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME YE THAT WORK INIQUITY/THEM THAT ARE DEFILED AND UNBELIEVING HAVE NOTHING PURE, THEIR MIND AND CONSCIENCE DEFILED, THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD, BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, BEING ABOMINABLE AND DISOBEDIENT AND UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE/YE SHALL KNOW THE FALSE PROPHETS BY THEIR FRUITS, THEY GATHER THORNS AND THISTLES/ A CORRUPT TREE BRINGS FORTH NO GOOD FRUIT.)




Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.




clare73 with the hardened stance wont see this as a biblical rebuttal, NEITHER WOULD THOSE MANY FALSE PROPHETS, but they are rebutted.



Just in case they are not, God left us further Rebuttal for them.


John tells Jesus the disciples saw one casting out devils in the name of Jesus, but he did not follow with the disciples, Jesus tells them to not forbid him from casting out devils, that THERE IS NO MAN WHICH SHALL DO A MIRACLE IN HIS NAME, THAT CAN LIGHTLY SPEAK EVIL OF JESUS. That he that is NOT AGAINST US, is FOR US/OUR PART.



Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Always in His Presence said:

10 years ago perhaps, but not these days -

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Yeah? Just going by the jobs in my extended family: how many jobs are there in Tulsa for investment bankers? For jewelry designers? For media professionals?

Always in His Presence said:

The left always brings up amenities - what are you referring to?

What amenities does NY have that Dallas does not?

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I thought we were talking about Tulsa.

The quantity of top-flight restaurants, museums, and artistic companies in NYC is unrivaled outside of a handful of the largest cities in the world. Dallas may have some great stuff (I've never been, but I assume this is true), but NYC has more of it.

Servus said:

I hope Momdani becomes the mayor of NYC and goes full throttle. The downfall of NYC be a good lesson for the rest of the country.

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Yeah, imagine if they wind up like Mississippi.

GoldenBoy89 said:

Cheering and hoping for the downfall of an American city.

These are apparently the “love America” people.

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Silly goose. Cities aren't "real America."

Bob S said:

That certainly is not what the verses in 2Cor are telling us. They are telling us that the Ten were done away, and mankind is now under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 2Cor 3: does not indicate that it is referring to the Ten Commandments. We belong to the truth if we believe in the one God sent and love others as He taught. 1JN 3

What is "my Law"? Jesus made it very clear in Jn 15 that He kept Torah and we are to keep His command to love others as He loves us.
Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Which laws?

So, if indeed we have a better covenant with better promises that should indicated that the covenant given to Israel was not the same one given all mankind in the New Covenant.

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The new covenant is an improvement on the old covenant. It is not that the old covenant was flawed, but that the new covenant was a fulfillment of the old covenant. From my point of view, the new covenant is an extension of the old. The new is based on grace and love, and the old is based on fear. One starts with the fear of God, and then turns to loving God and doing His will in love. Would your father rather you did his will from love or fear? Fear might keep you safe, but love is better.

SabbathBlessings said:

A new commandment does not delete
Jesus said: Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [b]This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

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Mat22: 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Scripture does not delete Scripture.

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NT Scripture transcends OT Scripture.

The sacrifices of the OT Scriptures are transcened by the sacrifice of the NT Scriptures rendering them obsolete, just as the Old Covenant is rendered obsolete (Heb 8:13) by the New Covenant (Eph 2:15).

Servus said:

I hope Momdani becomes the mayor of NYC and goes full throttle. The downfall of NYC be a good lesson for the rest of the country.

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Cheering and hoping for the downfall of an American city.

These are apparently the “love America” people.

It’s true that the wealthy can live pretty much wherever they want. It just so happens most of them want to live in some of the most expensive cities in the world. Almost like these things are intrinsically tied to each other.

GoldenBoy89 said:

I don’t get how some think billionaires and corporations buying favor with the president is better than splitting the cost of the renovations across 150 million taxpayers.

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Yes, it's our house and we should pay for it.....but first have some input via our representatives in the Congress. Every president, until now, who has made major improvements have gone through the Congress for funding.