Paulos23 said:

And yet, people will not get vaccinated until it is required despite the known history of outbreaks before vaccination became widespread.

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I'm surprised that you think the only reason people get vaccinated is because they are forced to. What a weird take. I mean, we hear about how wonderful vaccines are, how they prevent disease, suffering and death. Who wouldn't want that? If you read the link I posted in the last post, it goes on to say:

Clare73 said:

Demonstrated in post #112.

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So I'll ask again. Did God want His people to be freed? If He wanted His people to be freed while not wanting His people to be freed then we'd have a problem, and duplicitousness, not to mention irrationality.

probinson said:

Actually, there is clear evidence that forcible vaccination measures have consistently accelerated disease spread.

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.​

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assets.aclu.org

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And yet, people will not get vaccinated until it is required despite the known history of outbreaks before vaccination became widespread.

I want to give people a choice, but since the horrors that vacation shield is from is not present to give a reminder of how we many we lost to just measles or Polo, more people are not getting vaccinated, which allows for these diseases to come back.

iluvatar5150 said:

No, not even remotely.

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So you think the only reason people vaccinate their children is because they have to?

I believe that vaccine zealotry is doing FAR more damage to vaccine uptake than anti-vaxxers ever could.

fhansen said:

God, apparently, as it's a fact of life, at least in regard to the love He has and wants for us. A very dramatic demonstration was in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus' love for the Father and man was tested greatly. And why do you ask since you're argument below is an attempt at supportingt this truth?

If the disposition has been changed by an outside source

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God is not an external "outside source" when he works within.
God giving man to prefer the things of God is not a violation of his choosing what he prefers.

Free will is not about the the composition of the disposition, it is about choosing what the disposition prefers.

fhansen said:

then freedom has already been compromised.

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Not according to the meaning of "free will" in those who are "slaves to sin" (Jn 8:34), which is all mankind. Slaves are not free.
The Bible does not present the "free will" of man. Man cannot choose to be sinless.
That is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius around 400 AD, on the assumption that responsibility for sin requires that man have a free will. Biblically, this is not so.

"Free will" in fallen mankind is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.
As long as man is choosing what he prefers, he is exercising free will.
How or why he prefers it is irrelevant.

wing2000 said:

.....Donald Trump act and sounds like a guilty man....

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He does sound uncharacteristically desperate if not necessarily guilty. Like he might be protecting "important" people.

But his own little trail of evidence suggests he at least knew what was going on.

Paulos23 said:

Nope. There is clear evidence that requiring it brings up the vaccination rate and cuts down the infection rate.

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Actually, there is clear evidence that forcible vaccination measures have consistently accelerated disease spread.

Norton R. Nowlin said:

The full complete statement about the divine purpose of the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Ghost, is found in the New Testament of the Bible, specifically in John 14:26, where Jesus promises, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have said to you.”

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You didn't mean to say there is a "divine purpose of the Holy Spirit", did you?

Hentenza said:

I’m curious to understand where from these verses did you get the interpretation that some of His sheep don’t visit for a while and stray.

Yes, Matthew 25 refers to those whose faith did not fall in the good soil and did not produced fruit. But those with faith that fell in good soil are His sheep. So they produce good fruit naturally from salvation not for it.

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Isn't that Mt 13, and isn't the seed the word of God, while the soil is faith, where only true faith produces fruit and counterfeit faith does not?
Or am I in the wrong section of the NT?

probinson said:

You don't think recommendations accomplish the same thing?

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No, not even remotely.

Clare73 said:

The destiny of the earth is to be destroyed by fire (2 Pe 3:11).

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Yes, but shouldn't the destroying be left to God to perform ?

A2SG said:

I'm not entirely sure if those candidate can be considered "far left," whatever that means these days. Certainly not Dukakis. As governor of Massachusetts, he's mostly known for being fiscally responsible but mostly hands-off regarding social issues.

But, that aside, what Bernie and AOC bring to the party is an emphasis on working class and labor issues, and that is a direction the party needs to go in. I don't agree with those who claim the party shouldn't address issues related to trans and LGBT people, since they need representation too, and they're certainly not gonna get it from the GOP. But bread and butter, working class issues need to be a stronger focus within the party, including promotion of legislation that supports workers and middle class Americans. Too much focus does go to headline-grabbing issues and feckless displays against Donald Trump, and less for actual governing and protection of the middle class and other people who work for a living. I think AOC especially understands these issues, and, perhaps with more experience in government, can one day become a real, strong force for working class people.

That's my hope, anyway.

-- A2SG, as I've often said, if there's one thing the Democratic party excels at, it's disappointing its members....

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Yes, AOC and Sanders should try to move the party to putting working class issue front and center.

I don't they will move the party toward winning until the party makes a conscious choice to appeal to the voters as a whole rather than individual voter groups. Do you really think that the party will abandon trans athletes as a major issue? Will the party come close to reasonable positions on crime, immigration and the homeless?

Did Obama disappoint Democratic voters? Really? The Obama wing of the Democrat is disliked by the party leaders as much as Bush folk are disliked by Republicans. The party is losing large numbers of Hispanics and youth to the Republican Party. The left tells them (and us) that the answer is double down on their pet issues. They say the issue has been that candidates don't communicate well enough, obscuring the fact that it is the message that is the issue.
========
BOTTOM LINE
Democrats continue to lose on the central issue of immigration, while winning a bit on Trump's clumsy implementation.
Democrats continue to lose on the issue of who determines school curriculums.
Democrats continue to lose on the issue of crime in our cities.
Democrats continue to lose on the issue of trans athletes.
And Democrats even lose by wanting more rather than fewer government workers, even while winning a bit regarding implementation.
Democrats can't get traction on their best issues: climate, health care and support of science.

rjs330 said:

The only group Israel is trying to destroy is HAMAS. If they would surrender rhe war would end. That is NOT a genocide.

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Those who commit genocide no longer want to share the earth with a particular other people. It should be clear who intends to do this in the Middle East.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

take no thought

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Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

ozso said:

That's what I've been talking about. Christians being taught diligent gatekeeping, segregation, and alienation.

And I keep asking the question; does anyone think any of that is going to exist in the Kingdom of Heaven?

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Reminds me of these verses.

“Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all people, revealing yourselves, that you are a letter of Christ, delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence we have toward God through Christ. Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

This is a verbatim copy of Wikipedia's page on the shooting in English from 3:43 PM September 4, 2025 (UTC), Perpetrator section

Perpetrator​

The lone perpetrator was identified by law enforcement as 23-year-old Robin M. Westman (June 17, 2002 – August 27, 2025),[7][34][35] who had no previous criminal history.[34][36] Westman grew up in Richfield, Minnesota and reportedly attended Annunciation School before graduating in 2017. Westman at one point identified as transgender. Westman's given name was legally changed in 2019,[37] but before the attack Westman expressed being "tired of being trans" and wished to have "never brainwashed myself" in a diary entry. Westman further wrote that, "I don't want to dress girly all the time but I guess sometimes I really like it. I know I am not a woman but I definitely don't feel like a man."[38][39] There is no evidence that Westman had begun to medically transition.[40] According to The Washington Post, citing claims circulating on social media, Westman's mother worked as an administrative assistant at the school's business office from 2016 to 2021.[41][34][21]

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How is this "Memory holing"?

It's just anti-trans people being who they are.

And where were all these "Trans people are causing all the trouble in society" clowns when a pasty faced white guy dressed as a cop with a modified car that looked like a police car shot 4 people (and a golden retriever) because he didn't like their politics ?

Trump didn't call and JD didn't show up (actually, most of us here in the Northland are not really upset about either thing)

No, the goof with 3 guns, an online manifesto who was a lover of Hitler and all things NAZI, whose brain was likely a soup of right wing thought, it was the fact that he was trans that was important.

This country needs an enema

Michie said:

I’ve written in CP before that I believe once a Christian is saved through the sacrifice of Christ, they cannot lose their salvation. This doctrine is most often called the perseverance (sometimes labeled “preservation”) of the saints.

On this topic, the Westminster Confession of Faith says: “They whom God hath accepted in His beloved Son effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit can neither totally nor finally fall away from a state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved.”

There are plenty who disagree with this.

For example, the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent declared: “If anyone says that a man once justified cannot lose grace and therefore that he who falls and sins never was truly justified, let him be accursed.” And at the 1610 Conference of the Remonstrants (what Arminians called themselves then) said, “Persons truly regenerate, by neglecting grace and grieving the Holy Spirit with sin, fall away totally, and at length finally, from grace into eternal reprobation.”

While I think those who believe this, including the ones who laid the foundation of the you-can-lose-your-salvation position, have good intentions and are primarily trying to guard against the issue of “cheap grace,” it overlooks the fact that the Christian faith is built on the pattern of the unconditional Abrahamic covenant outlined in Genesis 12:1–3. Abraham was called, blessed, and then exhibited faith just as we do today.

Continued below.

Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

All our sins past and future evaporated at the cross and can t be resurrected against us ever, and thus we re forever protected from them

www.christianpost.com

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I missed the point. Maybe it was in the link. Can you restate what is "the number one fallacy on eternal security" here so I don't need to do additional research?

fhansen said:

Well, you certainly haven't demonstrated that. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish, however.

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Demonstrated in post #112.

essentialsaltes said:

NYC Mayor Eric Adams faces a decision: A Trump administration post to drop his reelection campaign​

The embattled New York City mayor was offered a HUD post, a person familiar with the talks tells POLITICO.

Not enough crooks in the Trump Administration.

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Who does Trump want to win other than not-Mandani?

probinson said:

Sure, there are those who refuse vaccines, but that happens now with exemptions for all kinds of reasons. I will be curious to see how the removal of mandates affects vaccine uptake.

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Sure, let's treat the lives of Floridians (and those who visit the state) as one grand experiment.

o_mlly said:

Where is the requested quotation of my post that supports your claim? As I suspected and predicted you've descended to fallacious strawman argument.

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If we both agree that evolutionary biology includes experimentation and is an empirical field of science, then I apologize for my error.

o_mlly said:

Strange? What is strange is one who imagines that a human design of experiment (aka, intelligent design) could show that intelligent design is not probable.

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I don't recall ever posting anything about experiments into evolution showing that intelligent design isn't probable.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Catholics are bound to affirm the dogma of transubstantiation: that in the Most Holy Eucharist, the entire substance of bread becomes the Body of Christ, and the entire substance of wine becomes His Blood, while the appearances (or “accidents”) of bread and wine remain. This doctrine was solemnly defined by the Council of Trent (Session XIII, Chapter IV), which declared: “By the consecration of the bread and wine, a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the Body of Christ our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of His Blood. Which conversion is, by the holy Catholic Church, suitably and properly called transubstantiation”. You are not permitted to interpret this change as merely symbolic or spiritual; the Church insists on a real, substantial presence.

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Jesus said: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I do believe there is judgment at the cup, and it hinges upon whether my worship of God's Spirit is pure and sincere in spirit. To that end, a sincere worship must be drawn out of me by the object of worship, through revelation, and therefore it's not at my discretion.

Subsequently, I have a testimony that it's the self-sacrificing Love incarnate that is the sacred thing being acknowledged and reverenced once the bread and wine has been consecrated. Moreover, this Love that I trust is the incorruptible Eternal Spirit of God, is marked by the horrific suffering the Christ endured in his flesh, and the shedding of his blood, for us.

So, I when I hear these sentiments ---> And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. ---> I remember his suffering death for me.

Hence His Incorruptible Love is the substantive Spirit and the substantive presence in the eucharistia (thanksgiving). Therefore, even though I see it as spiritual food which draws out true worship, I don't believe the universal church in unity through the Holy Spirit would ever count the suffering of Jesus and his subsequent death on the cross as merely symbolic.