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Amo2 · 2025-10-15T10:48:37-0500

The following book, chapter, and quotes may be viewed in their entirety at the link below.

The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome

Emphasis in the quotes below is mine.

Excerpts from - THE GREAT EMPIRES OF PROPHECY by Alonzo Jones

CHAPTER 33.

ROME — ESTABLISHMENT OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH.

1 THE Donatist dispute had developed the decision, and established the fact, that it was “the Catholic Church of the Christians” in which was embodied the “Christianity” which was to be recognized as the imperial religion. Constantine had allied himself with the church only for political advantage. The only use he had for the church was in a political way. Its value for this purpose lay entirely in its unity. If the church should be all broken up and divided into separate bodies, its value as a political factor would be gone.

2. The Catholic Church, on her part, had long asserted the necessity of unity with the bishopric, — a unity in which the bishopric should be possessed of authority to prohibit, as well as power to prevent, heresy…………………………………

6. The Donatist dispute had resulted in the establishment of the Catholic Church. Yet that dispute involved no question of doctrine, but of discipline only. Just at this time, however, there sprang into prominence the famous Trinitarian controversy, which involved, and under the circumstances demanded, an imperial decision as to what was the Catholic Church in point of doctrine — what was the Catholic Church in deed and in truth; and which plunged the empire into a sea of tumult and violence that continued as long as the empire itself continued, and afflicted other nations after the empire had perished……………………………

9. One of the chief reasons for the rapid and wide-spread interest in the controversy was that nobody could comprehend or understand the question at issue. “It was the excess of dogmatism founded on the most abstract words in the most abstract region of human thought.” (Stanley. “History of the Eastern Church,” lec, 3. par. 8.)There was no dispute about the fact of there being a Trinity, it was about the nature of the Trinity. Both parties believed in precisely the same Trinity; but they differed upon the precise relationship which the Son bears to the Father……………………………..

13. Whether the Son of God, therefore, is of the same substance, or only of like substance, with the Father, was the question in dispute. The controversy was carried on in Greek, and as expressed in Greek the whole question turned upon a single letter. The word which expressed Alexander’s belief is Homoousion. The word which expressed the belief of Arius is Homoiousion. One of the words has two “i’s” in it, and the other has but one; but why the word should not have that additional “i,” neither party could ever exactly determine. Even Athanasius himself, who succeeded Alexander in the bishopric of Alexandria, and transcended him in every other quality, “has candidly confessed that whenever he forced his understanding to meditate upon the divinity of the Logos, his toilsome and unavailing efforts recoiled on themselves; that the more he thought, the less he comprehended; and the more he wrote, the less capable was he of expressing his thoughts.” (Gibbon.“Decline and Fall,” chap. 21ar. 8.)

14. It could not possibly be otherwise, because it was an attempt of the finite to measure, to analyze, and even to dissect, the Infinite. It was an attempt to make the human superior to the divine. God is infinite. No finite mind can comprehend Him as He actually is. Christ is the Word — the expression of the thought — of God; and none but He knows the depth of the meaning of that Word. “He had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself;... and His name is called The Word of God.” Neither the nature, nor the relationship, of the Father and Son can ever be measured by the mind of man. “No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.” This revelation of the Father by the Son can not be complete in this world. It will require the eternal ages for man to understand “the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”………………

16. One who lived near the time of, and was well acquainted with, the whole matter, has well remarked that the discussion “seemed not unlike a contest in the dark; for neither party appeared to understand distinctly the grounds on which they calumniated one another. Those who objected to the word ‘con-substantial’ [Homoousion, of the same substance], conceived that those who approved it, favored the opinion of Sabellius and Montanus; they therefore called them blasphemers, as subverters of the existence of the Son of God. And again, the advocates of this term, charging their opponents with polytheism, inveighed against them as introducers of heathen superstitions.... In consequence of these misunderstandings, each of them wrote volumes, as if contending against adversaries; and although it was admitted on both sides that the Son of God has a distinct person and existence, and all acknowledged that there is one God in a Trinity of persons, yet, from what cause I am unable to divine, they could not agree among themselves, and therefore were never at peace.” (Socrates. “Ecclesiastical History,” book 1, chap. 23.)

17. That which puzzled Socrates need not puzzle us. Although he could not divine why they should not agree when they believed the same thing, we may very readily do so, with no fear of mistake. The difficulty was that each disputant required that all the others should not only believe what he believed, but they should believe this precisely as he believed it, whereas just how he believed it, he himself could not define. And that which made them so determined in this respect was that “the contest was now not merely for a superiority over a few scattered and obscure communities; it was agitated on a far vaster theater — that of the Roman world. The proselytes whom it disputed were sovereigns.... It is but judging on the common principles of human nature to conclude that the grandeur of the prize supported the ambition and inflamed the passions of the contending parties; that human motives of political power and aggrandizement mingled with the more spiritual influence of the love of truth, and zeal for the purity of religion.” (Milman. “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 4 par. 5.)………………………………

19. The controversy spread farther and farther, and raged more fiercely as it spread. “All classes took part in it, and almost all took part with equal energy. ‘Bishop rose against bishop, district against district, only to be compared to the Symplegades dashed against each other on a stormy day.’ So violent were the discussions that they were parodied in the pagan theaters; and the emperor’s statues were broken in the public squares in the fierce conflicts………………………….

21. Constantine’s golden dream of a united Christendom was again grievously disturbed. The bow of promise (of the bishops) which had so brilliantly irradiated all the political prospect when his alliance was formed with the church party, was rudely dissipated by the dark cloud of ecclesiastical ambition, and the angry storm of sectarian strife. He wrote a letter to Alexander and Arius, stating to them his mission of uniting the world under one head, and his anxious desire that there should be unity among all, and exhorted them to lay aside their contentions, forgive one another, use their efforts for the restoration of peace, and so give back to him his quiet days and tranquil nights.

22. This letter clearly shows the views and the hopes of Constantine as to the unity of the church, and that it was this that controlled him in his alliance with the church party: —

“Victor Constantinus Maximus Augustus to Alexander and Arius: I call that God to witness (as well I may) who is the Helper of my endeavors, and the Preserver of all men, that I had a twofold reason for undertaking that duty which I have now effectually performed.

“My design then was, first, to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity; and secondly, to restore a healthy tone to the system of the world,………………………..

“Let, therefore, both the unguarded questions and the inconsiderate answer receive your mutual forgiveness. For your difference has not arisen on any leading doctrines or precepts of the divine law, nor have you introduced any new dogma respecting the worship of God. You are in truth of one and the same judgment; you may therefore well join in that communion which is the symbol of united fellowship....

“Let us withdraw ourselves with a good will from these temptations of the devil. Our great God and common Savior has granted the same light to us all. Permit me, who am His servant, to bring my task to a successful issue, under the direction of His Providence, that I may be enabled through my exhortations, and diligence, and earnest admonition, to recall His people to the fellowship of one communion. For since you have, as I said, but one faith and one sentiment respecting our religion, and since the divine commandment in all its parts enjoins on us all the duty of maintaining a spirit of concord, let not the circumstance which has led to a slight difference between you, since it affects not the general principles of truth, be allowed to prolong any division or schism among you………………….

“Restore me then my quiet days and untroubled nights, that henceforth the joy of light undimmed by sorrow, the delight of a tranquil life, may continue to be my portion. Else must I needs mourn, with copious and constant tears, nor shall I be able to pass the residue of my days without disquietude. For while the people of God, whose fellow servant I am, are thus divided amongst themselves by an unreasonable and pernicious spirit of contention, how is it possible that I shall be able to maintain tranquillity of mind?... Permit me speedily to see the happiness both of yourselves and of all other provinces, and to render due acknowledgment to God in the language of praise and thanksgiving for the restoration of general concord and liberty to all.” (Eusebius’s “Life of Constantine,” book 2, chaps. 65-72.)

23. This letter he sent by the hand of Hosius, whom he made his ambassador to reconcile the disputants. But both the letter and the mission of Hosius were in vain; and yet the more so by the very fact that the parties were now assured that the controversy had attracted the interested attention of the imperial authority. As imperial favor, imperial patronage, and imperial power were the chief objects of the contest, and as this effort of the emperor showed that the reward was almost within the grasp of whichever party might prove successful, the contention was deepened rather than abated.

24. It had already been decided that the imperial favor and patronage were for the Catholic Church. Each of these parties claimed to be the orthodox and only Catholic Church. The case of the Donatists had been referred to a council of bishops for adjudication. It was but natural that this question should be treated in the same way. But whereas the case of the Donatists affected only a very small portion of the empire, this question directly involved the whole East, and greatly concerned much of the West. More than this, the Catholic religion was now the religion of the empire. This dispute was upon the question as to what is the truth of the Catholic religion. Therefore if the question was to be settled, it must be settled for the whole empire. These considerations demanded a general council. Therefore a general council was called, A.D. 325, which met at the city of Nice, the latter part of May or the first part of June, in that year.

As is obvious from the above account, it was the worldly political aspirations of both emperor and contending parties of already politicized “Christianity”, which settled the trinitarian matter for the empire in defining Roman Catholicism as the imperial religion of the state. A position that church has ever since sought to maintain. Causing untold tensions, strife, chaos, persecution, and many a war throughout our world's history.

The emperor Constantine himself, thought the matter to trifling to cause such dissensions, but the contending parties knew all too well the exaltation or abasement of the winners or losers of the conflict. The power of the state or empire for the winner, and persecution for the loser. Results only made possible by the ungodly unification of religion or church and state. An Old Covenant style theocratic government, without God directly leading, but rather men who claimed to be leading for our Lord. Things which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself came to abolish, and replace with His New Covenant spiritual nation or church unto salvation for anyone and everyone who believes.

Learning always · 2025-10-15T10:44:21-0500

Paulwat said:
Lately I’ve really been struggling with anxiety and OCD, especially around intrusive fears about hell. It’s been taking over my thoughts and making it hard to get through the day. Sometimes I get stuck worrying about people I care about possibly “going there,” and other times I spiral into fear about myself.

Whenever I come across posts that talk about eternal torture or damnation, it makes everything worse — it triggers the anxiety and sends me into a loop I can’t easily escape. I know these thoughts don’t reflect who I am or what I truly believe, but they still feel so real in the moment.

I used to fear and worry a lot about hell.
The Catholic faith helped me overcome the fear.
Looking back, that's just an opportunity for me to repent and live a new life.

Christsfreeservant · 2025-10-15T10:43:48-0500

“Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.” (Romans 13:11-14 NASB1995)

There are people in our world today who profess faith in Jesus Christ who are still spiritually asleep or who have gone back to sleep. Although they profess the name of Jesus with their lips, their hearts are far from him. Many of them never gave their lives to Jesus Christ in surrender to his will and in death to sin and walks of obedience to the Lord in holy living, by the grace of God, and in the power of God. And some (or many) who did have slipped back into spiritual lethargy and in sinful behaviors and disobedience to God.

But this isn’t just speaking of individual people but of people groups, too, such as church denominations which once upheld biblical repentance, death to sin, and walks of obedience to our Lord. So many of them have partnered with the world and with the government and have turned their “churches” and their denominations into businesses to be marketed to the world. And so they have made many spiritual compromises of truth and righteousness in order to gain the world to their gatherings. A very sad reality, indeed!

And I am not saying that God has ever approved of church denominations, because the Scriptures teach against such separations within the body of Christ and against being followers of man instead of followers of Christ. But I believe there have been church denominations which have done good, which have spread the message of the gospel across the world, and which have led some people to genuine biblical faith in Jesus Christ. Yet I see so many of them on a massive spiritual decline so far away from what God intended.

[Matthew 21:12-13; John 2:13-17; Acts 5:27-32; 1 Corinthians 1:10-13; 1 Corinthians 3:1-9; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Philippians 3:18-19; Revelation 2:1-29; Revelation 3:1-22; Revelation 13:5-8; Revelation 18:1-5]

Today I read a resume of a pastor who has moved up within his church denomination, and it read much like any other business resume filled with all of his secular accomplishments and educational degrees and his business pursuits. And I was thinking, “Where is Jesus in all of this?” And I thought of the apostle Paul’s resume, not the one before he met Jesus, but the one after he met Jesus, and this pastor’s resume was so opposite of that. It did finally say that he taught people to love Jesus, but that was it. Very sad!!

The church (overall, not speaking of every individual) in the USA, and perhaps in the world at large, needs an awakening now! It is barely distinguishable between the church and the world anymore; they are so blended together. So many are teaching a man-created half-truth gospel which is taught from Scriptures removed from their biblical context and made to say what they do not teach if taught in their appropriate context. And they are leading so many people to hell on the promise of heaven.

The church at large in the USA (where I live) needs to repent of their sins of idolatry and adultery and deceptions and manipulations of truth in order to appease people in their sins. They need to lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. They need to rebuke the lies and they need to now follow the teachings of Christ and of his New Testament apostles. No longer should they continue in acts of sexual immorality, lying, cheating, and diluting the gospel, etc. but they should obey God fully with their lives.

For Jesus Christ taught that to come to him we must deny self, take up our cross daily (die daily to sin), and follow (obey) him. For if we hold on to living in sin and for self, we will lose our lives for eternity. But if we deny self, die daily to sin, by the Spirit, and we walk in obedience to our Lord and to his commands, in his power, then we have eternal life with God. For not everyone who calls him “Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one DOING (obeying) the will of God (see Luke 9:23-26; Matthew 7:21-23).

For by God-gifted faith in Jesus Christ, which is not of our own doing, we are crucified with Christ in death to sin and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life in him, no longer to live as slaves to sin but as slaves to righteousness in walks of obedience to God’s commands. We are no longer to permit sin to reign in our mortal bodies to make us obey its desires. For if sin is what we obey, it results in death. But if obedience to God is what we obey, it results in sanctification, and its end is eternal life with God (see Romans 6:1-23).

And we learn in 1 John 1-3 that if we claim that we have fellowship with God, but yet we walk in darkness (sin), we are liars. If we claim that we know God, but we do not obey his commandments, in practice, we are liars. For it is not the one who claims he is “in Christ” who is “in Christ,” but it is the one who has denied self, died with Christ to sin, and who is now walking in obedience to our Lord and to his commands, in practice, and no longer in sin. We have the hope and the promise of eternal life with God in heaven.

[Matthew 7:13-14,21-23; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-30; Acts 26:18; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-10; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-22; Galatians 5:16-24; Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-6; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 3:1-19; Hebrews 4:1-13; Hebrews 10:19-39; Hebrews 12:1-2; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 1:1-10; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 2:1-29; Revelation 3:1-22]

Wake Up!

Based off Ephesians 5:1-21; Revelation 3:1-6
An Original Work / November 25, 2011
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead.
Your God awaits you to do what
He says to you.
Be not conformed to your selfish will.
Trust in the Lord. Do what He says.
He will give you victory.
Do not walk in darkness;
Come into the light of love.

Listen to your Savior calling
You to obey all His teachings.
Repent of your sin, and
Christ will shine His love on you.
He waits patiently for you to
Heed His whispers to your heart.
Will you hasten to obey Him;
Not from Him depart?

Live your life from this day forward,
Walking in His love and mercy.
Let Him cleanse you of all your sins.
Dwell with Him today.
Do not insult God’s grace to you.
Do not make light of your sin.
Let the light of His truth come
And free you from within.

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Time to Awaken from Sleep
An Original Work / October 15, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Hentenza · 2025-10-15T10:41:54-0500

SabbathBlessings said:
Obeying God through love and faith is not legalism. Sorry you feel this way, but Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 the same thing when He wrote His laws Exo 20:6

All of the law and the prophets rests on the love commandments of Jesus not on the Mosaic law.

SabbathBlessings said:
Disobedience to the law of God makes one an enmity to God, Rom 8:7-8

So you don’t disobey since you have to keep the law as you preach the law. Your church’s interpretation and yours by default are your own and the majority of professed Christians do not share it.

SabbathBlessings said:
You gave your opinion which is not the same as Scripture.

I gave you scripture that you don’t like. Can’t help that.

SabbathBlessings said:
I have never used my opinion on what is sin the Scripture shows what sin is 1John3:4 James 2:10-12 if you want to report me because you find this inconvenient, it still doesn't change these Biblical facts. The rules of this forum say to address the post, not the poster. I do my best to stick with what the Scripture states.

You use your opinion by condemning those that don’t share your opinion or interpretation. By calling others apostates because they don’t believe as you do you are not addressing the post but insulting the poster. This is flaming.

SabbathBlessings said:
The Ten Commandants is not the Law of Moses at least that's what God said. I am not sure why I should believe man over God. Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16

The Ten Commandments are part of the law if Moses. That is the way that it always was and still is with Israel. You can’t just separate the two.

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus is the rest giver, not the 4th commandment. The Sabbath is something man does Isa 56:2 Exo 20:8-11

Jesus fulfilled the sabbath into Himself. He is our rest not the Mosaic law.

SabbathBlessings said:
God does not change,

God completely changed the covenant. The first covenant is not the same as the new covenant. God can change His covenant at His pleasure. Don’t put limitations on God.

SabbathBlessings said:
God promised His would not alter His covenant Psa 89:34, not a jot or tittle. Mat 5:18 God said His times and laws Dan 7:25 which is what the Sabbath is every seventh day (time) Exo 20:10 the 4th commandment (law) Exo 20:8-11 would be changed, not by God but by man and we see a clear history of this. Why God is calling His people out of their rebellion and sin before its too late Heb3:7-19 Rev 18:4 Rev 22:11 and back to worshipping the God of Creation Exo 20:11 Rev 14:7

Of course you avoided the verses that teaches otherwise. He did change it and now there is a new one.

“When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

bible.com

SabbathBlessings said:
Says no Scripture, Jesus said - He is where my faith is in, not the words of man that we may be cheated Col2:8

Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

He now has a house of prayer for all nations. Is called the church.

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-10-15T10:41:00-0500

linux.poet said:
Sometimes we need to be patient, to wait for the sands of time to turn so that others may see and experience our perspective, rather than throwing the truth they will not accept in their faces until they submit.

There are many wise things in your post, but this one in particular may be the wisest thing I've read in any Christian forum.

Amo2 · 2025-10-15T10:40:30-0500

jamiec said:
There is nothing wrong with censorship. Far from it.

That of course depends upon what is actually being censored.

Amo2 · 2025-10-15T10:39:37-0500

jamiec said:
That must be why Damasus of Rome asked Jerome to translate the NT from Greek into Latin: in order to hide its meaning from Latin-speaking Christians !

How very efficient ! Because the purpose of translation is to hide the meaning of what is translated. Obviously.

The development of the papacy as we know it today, took place over many centuries, and continues as time moves forward as with most all institutions of any kind. Censorship of belief by Imperial mandate developed more rapidly than censorship of the scriptures themselves. It was not the policy of the Roman Church to prevent a knowledge of holy scripture until later in their career, after much corruption entered within, and the scriptures themselves became an avenue of criticism regarding the same. But, this is again, another topic.

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T10:37:21-0500

Always in His Presence said:
Correct - but the Roman Catholic church is authority for the Roman Catholic Church and does not speak for the whole of Christianity, never has - most likely never will.

View attachment 371624

We could also ask why the Roman Catholic Church is missing the books found in the Eastern Orthodox? Does it bother you that pages are missing?

Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church did not Canonize the 73 books until the 1500's? The Canonization in the 1500's was in response to the growing protestant movement that embraced the 66 from a millennia earlier

Quite correct. In addition, when Jerome translated the Bible into Latin he translated only the 66 books found in the Protestant canon and excluded the others because they were written in Greek and not in Hebrew. Under pressure from the church hierarchy he did translate the other books into Latin.

stevevw · 2025-10-15T10:37:20-0500

Hans Blaster said:
Have you read many scientific papers? It doesn't seem like it. If you build a new instrument -- you write a paper about it. If you develop a new method -- you write a paper about it. If you develop a new analysis technique -- you write a paper about it. Alternatively, you write pages to describe it.

It was not required as its an adjustment of an existing method. In the case of Karoly Poka it was developed in as Petriescope which was basically a custom made software developed based on the same tech but to accommodate the vases as they had no precedent of form being ellipsoids andother weird shapes.

But no new techniques were used. I have seen papers using new methods of measure for quantum particles and they never have a seperate paper for the instruments used. They just explain this in the paper.

Hans Blaster said:
I looked into "Max", and I wasn't that impressed. Not sure what about his CV indicates he should be the trusted guy to got to for measurements and analysis of ancient stone vases.

Ah because he makes, repairs and uses that equipment everyday lol. Because he actually has that equipment in his lab. Fancy having such expensive equipment and not knowing how it works.

If this scientists was confirming something you agreed with you the thought of questioning their ability would not cross your mind. You would trustr them. Your bias is showing through in that you speak subjectively about his credibility without one bit of evidence, ie "I wasn't that impressed".

Hans Blaster said:
More importantly gamma spectroscopy, neutron and alpha detection are VERY DIFFERENT from measuring the dimensions of a stone artifact. Complexity has nothing to do with it. "Measurement experience" is not some broad category of fungible skills.

Measurement experience. So if a scientists has a lab with the measuring equipment in it and he uses many times do you think they would gain experience and expertise in using that scanner or guage. You find every reason why he is not able. But overlook the most obvious that he actually owns the equipement, has a lab and has used that equipment many times in testing. Its really commonsense.

Hans Blaster said:
I wouldn't ask a PCR technician to do NMR spectroscopy, or ask an NMR expert to do mass spectrometry, or as a mass spectroscopist to do PCR, and neither would any sane person.

So what if their experience and knowhow in using these different devices to measure stuff translates into knowhow of using simple light scanners. Max is already showing he knows a range of testing and measuring equipment. How is scanners not related as far as understanding how the equipment generally operates. Do they need a degree in each machine lol.

If he knows how to use NMR spectroscopy, or mass spectrometry because he has that equipment and uses it in his lab as part of testing. Then why are you not applying the same logic that he also has light scanners in his lab and using them in tests with similar knowledge and ability.

Put it this way. I would rather a scientists who understands measuring stuff with equipement then an archeologist.

Hans Blaster said:
Could you explain how experience with the specific methodologies of gamma-ray spectroscopy is applicable to stone vessel shape measurement?

Its the technical thinking. Scientists take a technical approach and have the kind of mind that will be able to breakdown the processes whether its spectrometry or CT light scanning. They think analytically and in maths and numbers. So its not a far stretch to adapt. Its the machine thats doing the work. You just have to learn the process of operating the machine. You don't need a degree.

I linked the video showing the use of the hand help scanner. You take it out of the case and switch it on. Then you hover over the vase and it creates a software mesh and the software does the number crunching. Your trying to make it far more complex than it is.

You or I can take a guage sensor clamp or callipers and measure the roundness or flatness of a vase and get the precision on the digital readout right before our eyes. Without a degree. We can hold a light sensor over a vase and see the software crunch the numbers.

Amo2 · 2025-10-15T10:30:45-0500

CHAP. XXI.—THE DATE OF THE MARTYRDOM.

Now, the blessed Polycarp suffered martyrdom on the second day of the month Xanthicus just begun, the seventh day before the Kalends of May, on the great Sabbath, at the eighth hour. He was taken by Herod, Philip the Trallian being high priest, Statius Quadratus being proconsul, but Jesus Christ being King for ever, to whom be glory, honour, majesty, and an everlasting throne, from generation to generation. Amen.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., “The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

Finally, regarding the epistle under examination, it refers to the great Sabbath while of course not addressing the Sabbath or not issue. The subject being that of the martyrdom of Polycarp. Nevertheless, it is interesting that Christians who many claim no longer observed the seventh day Sabbath or other claimed Jewish “ceremonial” practices by this time, would still refer to the day Polycarp was martyred upon with the Jewish reference to the Great Sabbath.

Clare73 · 2025-10-15T10:30:21-0500

Daniel Martinovich said:
I agree. But not in the sense of agreeing with Calvinism if that is part of your equation. If Calvinism is not part of your equation just ignore that.

"Calvinism" as well as "Judaism," "Mormonism" and "Islamism" are not part of my equation.

camille70 · 2025-10-15T10:30:17-0500

From about one month ago. Equipment financier says 5 of her clients have committed suicide.

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Always in His Presence · 2025-10-15T10:27:31-0500

retired firefighter said:
what church do you attend ? Pentecostal i assume

Yes, Pentecostal Churches believe that what happened on Pentecost is still alive and active today - hence the name - Pentecostal.

Clare73 · 2025-10-15T10:27:07-0500

fhansen said:
Yes, God draws and enables us, not the other way around. That's ancient church teaching.

No doubt that the elect are the elect-and they will come-and persevere.

Yes, whoever they may be. God knows with perfect certainty while man may think they're His, but are not.

Good for God. . .he knows who are the elect.

Strong in Him · 2025-10-15T10:23:56-0500

Apple Sky said:
I disagree, kids these days are more on the ball than ever before, they can work a mobile phone at five to six years old.

Oh so that obviously means they can figure out that the moon landings were faked.

I hope that survey included relatives of the astronauts involved.

Strong in Him · 2025-10-15T10:22:07-0500

The results differ by country and age of the respondent. A separate sampling of 1,533 young people from age 16 to 25 in Germany, Spain and the Netherlands found even more doubt the moon landing than does the general, older population: 35%, vs. the average 25%.

What, so 35% of the 1,533 teenagers surveyed in 3 countries doubted the moon landings happened?
That means 65% of them believed that they did.

That doesn't even begin to equate to "most of the world's population" think they are a hoax.

Always in His Presence · 2025-10-15T10:22:00-0500

Xeno.of.athens said:
They are canonical indeed as defined by the one holy catholic and apostolic church. Jewish opinions apply to Jewish religion and catholic teaching applies to Catholic Christians.

Correct - but the Roman Catholic church is authority for the Roman Catholic Church and does not speak for the whole of Christianity, never has - most likely never will.

We could also ask why the Roman Catholic Church is missing the books found in the Eastern Orthodox? Does it bother you that pages are missing?

Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church did not Canonize the 73 books until the 1500's? The Canonization in the 1500's was in response to the growing protestant movement that embraced the 66 from a millennia earlier

Hentenza · 2025-10-15T10:17:27-0500

Yarddog said:
You show the problem why many vote Republican. They believe Republican lies about what the Democratic party's agenda is.

Lies? All progressives are democrats. All soft on crime DAs are democrats. All that espouse open borders are democrats. All that want to remove parental rights are democrats.

I’m not believing lies just observing truth.

Strong in Him · 2025-10-15T10:16:44-0500

Apple Sky said:
This is the biggest lie in history & is one the top conspiracies theories known & most of the worlds population now believes that we didn't go to the moon.

Rubbish.

How many people are there on these forums? 2,000? 5,000? 8,000? That is only a fraction of a million. One million is only a fraction of the world's population.

How many people - Christians and non Christians - on these forums believe the moon landings were a hoax? I have never done a poll, and I doubt you have either.
Say we're working with a figure of 5,000 forum members - for the sake of my maths, only. You do a poll asking about the moon landings, unusually, every single member here answers and the answer is that 1,000 people think they were a hoax. (And I'm being generous; I don't think you'd even get into triple figures.)
That is still only 1/5; 20% of people here.
Even if every forum on the internet did a similar poll, got ALL their members to answer and got the same result, that's still only 1/5 of people.
That doesn't even include those who aren't online, or who are but have better things to do with their time that to answer a poll about something that happened over 50 years ago.

Put simply, you have no way of knowing that "most of the world's population" now believe that moon landings are a hoax.

Clare73 · 2025-10-15T10:16:03-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
Come on. Give me a break. What about the part in Hebrews 6:4 that says they were enlightened and were partakers of the Holy Spirit? That can only describe people who are saved.

Contraire. . .the Holy Spirit worked in Saul. . .but he remained a reprobate.

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-15T10:14:54-0500

FredVB said:
What though is apocrypha that we would know to be separate from what is included in the Bible? I am sure that having anything about an angel from God coming to someone and lying or suggesting to lie so as to deceive would indicate writing to be separate from what is included in the Bible.

But what of the first book of Enoch, what is in it disqualifying it? Early believers observed what is read from it, it is mentioned in the new testament, and quoted a few times. Jesus asked the Sadducees if they had not read the scriptures, they should know that after the resurrection we can be like the angels in heaven who are not ever given in marriage, Matthew 22:30. What passages in the scriptures was Jesus referring to, where is it?

Good point. Jude also alludes to extrabiblical literature in his letter.

There are multiple references in the Old Testament, primarily in the books of the kings and the chronicles, of other books which were used as references to verify these writings.

Clare73 · 2025-10-15T10:10:28-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
If all are born lost then why did Jesus say that none that were given Him (referring to the twelve disciples) were lost except one, the son of perdition? You are obviously taking John 17:12 out of context. Based on what you said here, Jesus should have said all of them were lost, not one, but He clearly wasn't talking in the context that you're talking about here.
While we are all born with a sinful nature that will eventually manifest itself when we begin to sin, we do not sin right from birth. If we were objects of His wrath even from birth, that would be complete nonsense. What has a baby done to deserve God's wrath? Absolutely nothing. You are defying all logic with your belief. If God's wrath is on us even from birth, then what do you make of this...

Matthew 19:13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

What do you think, that Jesus was saying that the kingdom of heaven was made up of such as those little children

"Such as these" children, is not "these" children.

"Such as these;" i.e., not the wise and learned (Mt 11:25, 18:3, 19:14), but the trusting and unpretentious.

Spiritual Jew said:
of wrath? Of course He was not saying that, but the way you falsely interpret Ephesians 2:3 would lead to that conclusion.

Eph 2:3 is quite clear and needs no interpretation, only belief of what it states; i.e., we are "by nature, objects of wrath."
We are born with our nature, born objects of wrath.

The baby rattlesnakes in my backyard where my children play are as much my enemies as are the adult rattlesnakes there.
Being babies make no difference in one's nature (poisonous, or sinful) in either rattlesnakes or humans.

All those of Adam are born with the sin of Adam accounted/charged/imputed to them (Ro 5:17), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

There are only two groups of people on earth, the condemned (Eph 2:3) and the saved through faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18).
Even the elect stand condemned until they come to saving faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18).

stevevw · 2025-10-15T10:07:46-0500

Stopped_lurking said:
The median is a non-measure of precision (-1000, -500, 0, 1, 2) and (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2) both have the same median but if I said that they values measured a deviation from a centerline in the same units you would tell me that the precision was better for the second set of numbers.

Until we are certain the best approach is to not draw any big conclusions from the data.

But if we see both methods (the Mean and Median) showing similar levels of precision then its sort of repeating the precision. Like I said what about the simple guage metrology where we can see the circularity when we measure around the vase and its within 0.005 inch. What then.

Just to get that level of roundness with a tiny deviation of basically a human hair or two is pointing to some sort of turning to maintain such precision. I mean 10 times out of 10 we would recognise this as evidence of turning. But for some reason its resisted on this occassion.

Stopped_lurking said:
There is almost no overlap between the green dots and the yellow ones. The precise class in the REVISED analysis of Matt Bealls vases are better or equal to the modern replicas.

So if Bealls vases are better or equal to modern replicas whats the problem. No one was saying that all these vases are better than modern ones. But on par with them. As you can see the precision class are within a range and not specific. So long as they are in that range they are deemed as on par with modern machined vases.

Some are better, some the interior is better than modern machined vases. You have to remember these are 5,000 year old vases so theres ware and damage. But its the interiors that seem to be the best which makes sense in that they are protected. But also the plain and clear lathing or machining marks on the inside.

You also have to remember that though theres no overlap the differences here are in microns. Its still within the modern machining levels.

Stopped_lurking said:
View attachment 371619
NB! Green in the plot below is in the precise class of Matt Bealls vases, not the Petrie vases! Precision and Classification of Predynastic Egyptian Stone Vessels: REVISED In the revised analysis V18 is also mostly out od the discussion.

Ok so whats the problem. I know that Bealls vases lack good providence. But as I said most of the best examples of vases are in private collections because they were the best. If there is say a 1,000 out there and they all have limited providence what then.

Do we exclude potentially the very best examples of these precision vases. We have to work out a way to include them. Otherwise we are skewing the evidence anyway by eliminating what may be the swaying factor that proves these vases are precise.

Stopped_lurking said:
View attachment 371622

They don't have to! Getting published in any journal at this point would be good.

Well not really because by the looks of this thread there would be too much outcry from skeptics lol. You want to nullify most of that beforehand with robust evidence,

Stopped_lurking said:
ISO 1101 or ASME Y14.5, using terms defined in either two standards in a non-normal way should be avoided (as it can be seen as misleading). In this case calculating the RMSD instead of using an existing definition of circularity.

What is the existing definition of circularity. Did not Max also do this besides Karoly and used a non existing definition of circularity. Just different non standards ie Median and Means error or deviation from the perfect circle.

Stopped_lurking said:
Without good provenance the results are almost worthless, at best they can inspire them to make more measurements of objects with better provenance.

Yes and no. Like I said above there are literally 100s of genuine vases out there which are the very best examples to use if we want to determine the validity. So discounting them all is discounting probably the most important evidence. We have to also measure these vases and find a way to include them. If the museums can determine authenticity without full providence based on other factors then so should these vases.

Stopped_lurking said:
Perhaps, but then they need to start publishing in peer-reviewed journals.

Why, it seems that the disputes and skeptics can make their case now as being shown. It is better to sort this out before peer review lol. Thats what the tests and open source are for to allow the tests and to allow them to be challenged to sort out the evidence and then publish. No scientific hypothesis is proposed without a long testing period.

RDKirk · 2025-10-15T10:07:13-0500

Paidiske said:
I'm not sure that's true. Diversity is one expression of the rich variety of the wisdom of God, and a wise and humble person can appreciate that diversity is part of God's gift and God's grace, for the flourishing of society. That it's a mistake to want or feel the need for everyone to think alike, feel like, act alike, but that through difference we can all learn and grow and be enriched.

If you really believed that, you would be happy with a Taliban province in Australia. Would you flourish as a woman in Afghanistan?

Always in His Presence · 2025-10-15T10:06:59-0500

World leaders congratulate Trump on bringing Israeli hostages home

“I reiterate my thanks for the tireless diplomatic efforts of the United States, Egypt, Qatar and Turkey. It is now crucial that we work together to implement President Trump’s peace plan for Gaza, and that will be my focus in Egypt today,” Starmer wrote.

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World leaders congratulate Trump on bringing Israeli hostages home