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All4Christ · 2025-07-02T05:47:38-0500

PloverWing said:
@Michie recently posted an article in OBOB in which the author recommends lowering the recommended Confirmation age to 9 or 10. This is exactly the opposite advice from what I've been thinking lately. I thought it might be interesting to explore this in the Traditional Theology forum, to see how other folks felt about it. What do we envision Confirmation as being, and what role is it playing in practice (as distinct from what we envision in our theology books) in the spiritual lives of young Christians?

Original OBOB thread: Strengthening the Seal: Yet Another Diocese Returns Confirmation to Younger Children, Where It Belongs...

Article referenced in that thread: Understanding the Reality of the Sacrament of Confirmation | Knowing Is Doing

---

A couple of weeks ago, I had a conversation with a fellow-Episcopalian friend of mine. They're in their 20s, and I'm a generation older. Both of us had the experience of exploring and questioning faith in our late teens and early 20s, and then coming to a point in our 20s where we were ready to commit to continuing in the Christian faith despite all the doubts and questions. I suspect that's a common experience, and it feels like there should be a sacramental rite that marks that adult commitment. Both of us thought of Confirmation as the natural candidate for this, which made us lean toward an older recommended age for Confirmation, something like 25 or 30.

So when I encountered the above article this evening, it surprised me by recommending a much younger Confirmation age of 9 or 10.

I suppose that's similar to the age at which many young Baptists express a desire for believer's baptism, so perhaps the author's idea is for Confirmation to be linked to the child's first ability to understand and commit to the faith. I can see this as plausible. But it still leaves us without a rite to mark the passage into informed adult faith.

Some questions to invite thought:

1) What role does Confirmation play in your tradition? It's laying on of hands by the bishop, and it's a means of grace (I assume we all agree on those points), but what transition or commitment or stage of spiritual growth does it mark for the young people in your church?

2) I've overheard conversations in my town that went something like this: "Yeah, I went to church until I was Confirmed, and then that was all done, so I didn't have to go back any more." Is that just people in my town, or do you encounter this too? Is there something different we should be doing with Confirmation, if it's viewed like that?

3) Does your church have a rite that marks entrance into informed adult faith? A person goes to college and reads the philosophers and learns about world religions and the Enlightenment and higher criticism and whatever other intellectual challenges are out there, and like Jacob wrestles with it all until they extract a blessing -- and decides to continue being a Christian. Is there a rite for that? Should there be?

Orthodox “confirmation” is our chrismation. This actually happens when the child is baptized. They partake of the Eucharist from that time forward and are full members of the Church. The closest rite that marks their informed belief is their first confession. This typically happens around the same time as confirmation in other churches.

Tropical Wilds · 2025-07-02T05:46:39-0500

Zceptre said:
This is a statement from ignorance.

Trust me when I tell you that it is not an insult that I say this. It's a very dark road that reveals such things.

Porn HAS and DOES kill people!!!

Now that is the real statement from ignorance and bias, lol. Viewing porn does not kill people, and even if it did (which it does not), it’s not to the tune of 46,728 per year. That is a ludicrous thing to claim.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-07-02T05:38:56-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Is that your claim?

I try to narrow things down

Your statement here makes people devils, except you can't quite say it:

"If you are a seed of a serpent then you are a serpent"

I'll accept your positional thumb in eye toward your neighbors

Ophiolite · 2025-07-02T05:30:55-0500

AACJ said:
Actually, your dismissal of the Resurrection of Christ

I didn't reject the Resurrection of Christ in my post. I have rejected your assertion that there is "well documented" evidence for it.

AACJ said:
The Resurrection is the single most historically attested miracle in ancient history

If you are going to set the bar that low you merely justify my provisional conclusion.

The meme, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is not perfect, but it is a useful guide. Since the available evidence, all anecdotal, largely or totally written not by eyewitnesses, but by those they told their stories to, fails to meet even the standards I would expect to validate a normal event.

AACJ said:
Actually, your dismissal of the Resurrection of Christ--a priori--exposes your bias

Au contraire! As a Christian I accepted the Resurrection on faith. When, later, I concluded that faith was a poor servant, then I rejected the plausibility of the Resurrection based on the absence of evidence.

AACJ said:
If you reject all historical testimony because it challenges materialism,

I don't. Thus far I have seen no historical testimony that would lead me to accept non-material claims. I would be delighted to find that there were some. So far I have seen none. However, we are drifting in apologetics and that is not the subject of this thread. If you wish to pursue this in a manner that is consistent with forum rules on a new thread, let me know.

BibleBeliever1611 · 2025-07-02T05:23:12-0500

Well if God is the one who created hell, then of course he is okay with people going there. Otherwise hell wouldn't exist.

Normandt · 2025-07-02T05:12:57-0500

156. Faith in Jesus

Have we discovered God’s Love in our hearts? Isn’t it the best way to help our neighbour to let God simply pass through our heart, to ignite it? Jesus will guide us and show us what we are called to become:

“Here comes with power the Lord God, who rules by his strong arm; here is his reward with him, his recompense before him. Like a shepherd he feeds his flock; in his arms he gathers the lambs, carrying them in his bosom, and leading the ewes with care.” Isaiah, chapter 40, verses 10 to 11

How comforting! The Lord illuminates his servants. The people who enter the service of the Lord are the people who have accepted him in their hearts and in their lives.

With two blind men, Jesus makes them discover that faith in him is the solution to their discomfort:

“‘Let it be done for you according to your faith.’ And their eyes were opened.” Matthew, chapter 9, verses 29 to 30

The new American Bible, 2011-2014

Book: The heart's mission, Normand Thomas

Zceptre · 2025-07-02T04:48:20-0500

trophy33 said:
The apostles did not die for the historicity of the Luke's genealogies (they probably did not even know about them), but for the historicity of the resurrection.

You are committing logical fallacy trying to categorize all the content into one category. Genealogies can be fictional, even some stories about Jesus can be fictional, Jesus not.

Call it anything you like, but you are converting a genealogy of a list of people that link back to Adam created by God, stated in the text, into fictional characters to lead to a real Savior.

Whatever you say...

I'll wait to see how many versions of this there are before I really put any investment in it. If this is an indication of anything, it is that more than one form of such ideas exist. I'm sure there are other people who are going to claim similar things.

Chasing my tail isn't one of my daily habits.

Richard T · 2025-07-02T04:43:38-0500

Im glad you care about missions. I think some of these technologies have found there way already though if course there is still need. God bless

Wookiee · 2025-07-02T04:39:23-0500

Richard T said:
My question is if i just put in a new hard drive can i then plug the old one in and use apps like office or tax software feom the old ssd drive?

This option either involves cloning (the problem will probably persist) or reinstalling Windows.

Can you send a photo of the blue screen (so the entire screen and error text is legible)? It could be anything from dying hardware, to bad drivers, to viruses. How often is it happening? Does it happen while doing anything in particular?

HIM · 2025-07-02T04:38:51-0500

Meowzltov said:
I hope I'm in the right forum. Is it okay for non-Christians to post here? Just trying to be a good neighbor.

This post is not meant to change the mind of anyone away who thinks differently. If you are a Christian and you are looking forward to heaven, God bless you. My comments are meant only to answer the remark about salvation in the OT.

Unlike the NT, the Tanakh is not really concerned with the afterlife. The references to being saved refer to salvation on this earth, like when God saved the Israelites from slavery in Egypt, or when he saved David from Saul's army.

The purpose of the Torah was to create a society right here on earth that would be accountable to God. All societies must have rules and consequences to keep them from falling apart.

That doesn't mean that the Tanakh doesn't also bring us closer to God and inspire us to be better people. It is rich in its wisdom and full of heartfelt words of affection for God and his mercy.

Hi Meowzitov
The NT deals mainly with our lives here. The Torah, God's Word being in our heart through Jesus the Christ, we do because we are changed. Part of Salvation is walking with God in His steps through Faith now as our Father Abraham did and the Patriarchs before him. There was no Torah before Sinia only God's Spirit striving with us to keep us as His.

Meowzltov said:
In the end, Jews don't obey God because of some reward in the afterlife or threat of hell. We obey God because he is GOD and worthy of our obedience. A life ethically and morally lived, a life that loves God and our neighbor, is intrinsically rewarding. It is the best possible life to live. Right here. Right now.

Shalom

If a professing Christian is doing for award, then they are not a Christian. The end game is the eradication of sin and the fruits of it, this world as we know it. This can only be done through God's Spirit through Christ. We can't do it by ourselves without failing to one degree or another. One sin continues the cycle of hurt and death. Just one.

Zceptre · 2025-07-02T04:38:12-0500

trophy33 said:
Silly reaction.

God would have to dictate one name after another to Luke which is a bit absurd, inspiration does not work this way.

I decided to elaborate.

Yes, I laughed, and I made it known. But I separate people from their ideas and it is the ideas I'm addressing here.

I am not and would not laugh directly at you. I am absolutely laughing as the idea you presented.

I was laughing at how fast a response the inquiry got to convert real people into vapor.

The nest step in such a paradigm is that the Lord Jesus is a metaphor and the cross He was crucified on becomes poetry...

Richard T · 2025-07-02T04:37:05-0500

Hopefully this us appropriate here. I got the blue screen of death. Windows cites critical process died and wont repair itself. I tried restore points to no avail. Asus troubleshooter says the hard drive is fine. Ive copied most my files using the cmd mode. Shops are not great near me. They always want a reinstall windiws solution. My question is if i just put in a new hard drive can i then plug the old one in and use apps like office or tax software from the old ssd drive? Thanks

Zceptre · 2025-07-02T04:31:31-0500

Zceptre said:
Erasing Adam and Eve as literal people removes the genealogy given to us and turns it into allegory as well. The genealogy is given in the New Testament quite clearly and from both lineages, Joseph and Mary, qualifying the Lord Jesus from both parents.

In Luke chapter three, the Scripture follows the genealogy all the way back to Adam.

So what is the wild story that accounts for such a historical family tree becoming a symbolic metaphor?

Let the games begin...

Anyone else want to explain how this genealogy is not connected to real people in the real world made by God in the beginning that lead to the Savior of the world?

Lets just put the cards on the table so we know where everyone stands for conversational clarity.

AACJ · 2025-07-02T04:30:29-0500

Frank Robert said:
View attachment 328403
A branch of the tree of life that includes the time when the propatagium, vital to flight in future birds, came about.

"Modern birds capable of flight all have a specialized wing structure called the propatagium without which they could not fly. The evolutionary origin of this structure has remained a mystery, but new research suggests it evolved in nonavian dinosaurs. The finding comes from statistical analyses of arm joints preserved in fossils and helps fill some gaps in knowledge about the origin of bird flight.

For a long time now, we have known modern birds evolved from certain lineages of dinosaurs that lived millions of years ago. This has led researchers to look to dinosaurs to explain some of the features unique to birds, for example, feathers, bone structure and so on. But there's something special about the wings of birds in particular that piqued the interest of researchers at the University of Tokyo's Department of Earth and Planetary Science."

"At the leading edge of a bird's wing is a structure called the propatagium, which contains a muscle connecting the shoulder and wrist that helps the wing flapping and makes bird flight possible," said Associate Professor Tatsuya Hirasawa.

"It's not found in other vertebrates, and it's also found to have disappeared or lost its function in flightless birds, one of the reasons we know it's essential for flight. So, in order to understand how flight evolved in birds, we must know how the propatagium evolved. This is what prompted us to explore some distant ancestors of modern birds, theropod dinosaurs."

Read more...

The claim that the propatagium evolved in non-avian dinosaurs is built on inference, not on direct evidence. There are no transitional fossils that show a gradual development of the propatagium; rather, the structure appears fully formed in birds, with no functional intermediates documented (Ostrom, "Archaeopteryx and the Origin of Flight"; Feduccia, "Riddle of the Feathered Dragons"). Also, soft tissue like the propatagium rarely fossilizes, which makes such evolutionary claims speculative at best (Benton, "Vertebrate Paleontology").

The sudden appearance of birds capable of flight in the fossil record remains unexplained by gradualistic evolution.

References:

John H. Ostrom, "Archaeopteryx and the Origin of Flight"

Alan Feduccia, "Riddle of the Feathered Dragons: Expeditions on the Trail of Prehistoric Birds"

Michael J. Benton, "Vertebrate Paleontology"

Zceptre · 2025-07-02T04:25:33-0500

trophy33 said:
Silly reaction.

God would have to dictate one name after another to Luke which is a bit absurd, inspiration does not work this way.

Like I said ten seconds later in the edit.

Ok.

Zceptre · 2025-07-02T04:22:25-0500

trophy33 said:
Luke linking the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam is creating the symbolic meaning that Jesus is the savior of all humanity, not just of Jews.

There were no historical records of common families like that of Mary or Josef leading back to Adam.

LOL!!!

Ok.

Christsfreeservant · 2025-07-02T04:13:24-0500

“Thus says the Lord,

‘Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind

And makes flesh his strength,

And whose heart turns away from the Lord.

For he will be like a bush in the desert

And will not see when prosperity comes,

But will live in stony wastes in the wilderness,

A land of salt without inhabitant.

Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord

And whose trust is the Lord.

For he will be like a tree planted by the water,

That extends its roots by a stream

And will not fear when the heat comes;

But its leaves will be green,

And it will not be anxious in a year of drought

Nor cease to yield fruit.’” (Jeremiah 17:5-8 NASB1995)

All throughout the Scriptures we are warned against putting our trust in human beings. Humans are not to be gods to us to where we believe their every word and so we follow them in blind obedience and submission. We are not to put our trust in other humans to where we treat them as though they are gods to be worshipped and followed unequivocally and without question. We are not to bow to any person or group or nation or leader, looking to them to be our saviors who are going to give us a better life.

We are not to put any human being above God or in place of God to where we listen to them and not to God. And we should be those who are seeking out the Lord for truth, and so we know what to believe and what not to believe. And we are to be those who are to be testing what we hear from any human being, and against the Scriptures, taught in their appropriate context (not out of context). So this necessitates that we be students of the Scriptures who study them in the right context, and who obey God.

Let me give you an example of what this is talking about. Here in the USA, where I live, our political system is divided into two sides, republican and democrat. Now I believe this division is fake and that the two parties are, in reality, one whole working for the same people. They fake their division and they stir up division among the people in the USA to try to get us to take sides and to believe that one side is telling us the truth and that the other side is lying to us, to try to get us to be absolutely loyal to just one side.

And so what typically happens with this is that it causes divisions among those professing faith in Jesus Christ so that they end up fighting against one another. And it leads many followers to believe whatever their side is telling them is the truth, and to disregarding entirely what the other side is saying is the truth. And so many professing Christians end up being groupies, of sorts, in that they not only believe whatever one side is saying, but many of them are regurgitating that side as though it is gospel truth.

And so, essentially, they end up becoming followers of humans, believing whatever they are telling them, and often without question. And their trust then is largely based in what these humans are telling them, often without testing them and without consulting God to see if what they are believing is the truth or not. And many of them are following wolves in sheep’s clothing who pretend to be for the people when, in truth, they are working against the people with the goal to destroy us as a people, not to rescue us.

So, we are not to put our trust in any human, group, nation and/or national leader of the people who are bound to fail us, and who may be working for the devil with the purpose to destroy us. Our trust needs to be solely in God who will never lie to us and who will keep his word. But remember that all of God’s promises have conditions, the primary condition being that we obey him and that we go with him where he leads us and that we not be idolaters and adulterers, but that we live holy lives, pleasing to God, in his power.

So, if you profess faith in Jesus Christ, please pray and ask the Lord to show you if you are putting your trust in any human or group or nation or world leader, believing that they are who they say they are, doing what they say that they are doing, which they claim is for our good. And if he shows you that this is what you are doing, then stop doing it! And then pray for wisdom and discernment to know truth from lies, and test the spirits to see which ones are of God, and then just follow the Lord, and believe what he says.

For Jesus Christ taught that to come to him we must deny self, take up our cross daily (die daily to sin), and follow (obey) him. For if we hold on to living in sin and for self, we will lose our lives for eternity. But if we deny self, die daily to sin, by the Spirit, and we walk in obedience to our Lord and to his commands, in his power, then we have eternal life with God. For not everyone who calls him “Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one DOING (obeying) the will of God (see Luke 9:23-26; Matthew 7:21-23).

[Matt 7:13-14,21-23; Lu 9:23-26; Jn 10:27-30; Ac 26:18; Rom 2:6-8; Rom 6:1-23; Rom 8:1-14; Rom 12:1-2; 1 Co 6:9-10,19-20; 1 Co 10:1-22; 2 Co 5:10,15,21; Gal 5:16-24; Gal 6:7-8; Eph 2:8-10; Eph 4:17-32; Eph 5:3-6; Col 1:21-23; Col 3:1-17; Tit 2:11-14; Heb 3:1-19; Heb 4:1-13; Heb 10:23-31; Heb 12:1-2; 1 Pet 2:24; 1 Jn 1:5-10; 1 Jn 2:3-6,15-17; 1 Jn 3:4-10]

For Our Nation

Professionally recorded in Nashville, TN
Via Gerry Peters, music producer and arranger
An Original Work / September 11, 2012
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Bombs are bursting. Night is falling.
Jesus Christ is gently calling
You to follow Him in all ways.
Trust Him with your life today.
Make Him your Lord and your Savior.
Turn from your sin. Follow Jesus.
He will forgive you of your sin;
Cleanse your heart, made new within.

Men betraying: Our trust fraying.
On our knees to God we’re praying,
Seeking God to give us answers
That are only found in Him.
God is sovereign over all things.
Nothing from His mind escaping.
He has all things under His command,
And will work all for good.

Jesus Christ is gently calling
You to follow Him in all ways.

Men deceiving: We’re believing
In our Lord, and interceding
For our nation and its people
To obey their God today.
He is our hope for our future.
For our wounds He offers suture.
He is all we need for this life.
Trust Him with your life today.

Login to view embedded media
Put Your Trust in The Lord
An Original Work / July 2, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

Richard T · 2025-07-02T04:13:00-0500

Hvizsgyak said:
The More News Headlines We See, the Less We Care

Constant exposure to negative news can numb our sense of morality and empathy. Experts explain how this happens, the risks to mental health, and how to combat desensitization.

www.psychologytoday.com

Am I imagining it or have the news articles and headlines become more negative. It seemed as when Joe Biden was in office there was an aire of happiness in alot of the news stories and the only negative stories were coming from Fox News and their conservative companions. Now, practically every news feed I have on my computer is either someone famous dying, shootings all over the US and in other countries, nations arguing about taxes, immigrants or some other political dilemma, economic turmoil, war.

It is very discouraging. But what makes me mad is if this is just a mainstream media attempt at making the Trump Admin. the cause of all these woes. Surely happy stories couldn't have just disappeared just like that. Where is the positiveness of our space program, where is the positiveness of our cultures coming to together and celebrating life. Yes, our country is forcing immigrants to come to America the legal and proper way and it looks messy but Spanish, Latinos, Asians, Africans and Europeans have never been this close before in America. Don't let the negativity of the liberal media separate us. Remember E. Pluribus Unum. Follow God and He will lead us to goodness.

Is it jusr liberal media? Lots if grandstanding, political theater, rude name calling. Im glad i dont follow too close.

Richard T · 2025-07-02T04:09:17-0500

Mtol117 said:
Hi all, I am burdened by debt, a result of my own stupidity, and while i have decent income it is snowballing. Please pray for me to be wiser, so that I can overcome these issues

It is great your seeking God on this. Of course i dont know your giving and its not my business except to mention a renewed interest in giving to God really can stop the devour and help with any financial situation. Usually too some problems can end up a blessing as we take corrective measures that bring us closer to God.

Bob Crowley · 2025-07-02T03:59:34-0500

AI is being increasingly used by scammers. I picked up a Linux magazine today ("Linux Format" April 2025) and there was an article on that topic. Deepfake technology is a major threat.

One paragraph read as follows -

"Even if phishing targets are cautious, avoiding scams is made a whole lot harder by the rise of another AI-powered technology - namely deepfakes. Adam Pilton, a seniour cybersecurity consultant at CyberSmart, is in no doubt that deepfake attacks are the primary evolving threat to emerge from the success of AI technology. "At the start of 2024", Pilton says, "we saw cybercriminals use a deepfake of a chief financial officer to trick an employee into transferring 25 million dollars to them."

This particular attack began with a relatively straightforward phishing email, which the employee was rightly sceptical of. "But when the employee joined a virtual meeting and saw and heard the CFO - as well as other people he recognised - all suspicions were gone"

What price deepfakes are going to solicit church and charity donations?

AACJ · 2025-07-02T03:54:50-0500

Ophiolite said:
I stopped reading at this point. Regardless of the seeming elegance of your arguments and the clarity with which they are presented, I can place zero credence upon the writing of anyone who can make this assertion with a straight face. (Critical words emboldened for identification)

Actually, your dismissal of the Resurrection of Christ--a priori--exposes your bias, certainly not the evidence. The Resurrection is the single most historically attested miracle in ancient history and is affirmed by skeptical scholars, such as atheist Bart Ehrman (The New Testament: A Historical Introduction): early creedal accounts (1 Corinthians. 15:3-8) date to within years of the event, not legends. Even atheist historian Gerd Lüdemann states, "The resurrection appearances cannot be denied" (What Really Happened to Jesus?).

If you reject all historical testimony because it challenges materialism, then you’ve abandoned reason for dogma. The evidence stands, and your refusal to engage it does not change it and certainly does not refute it.

References:

Ehrman, B. (2000). The New Testament: A Historical Introduction. Oxford University Press.

Lüdemann, G. (1995). What Really Happened to Jesus? SCM Press.

A2SG · 2025-07-02T03:47:36-0500

ozso said:
Just like the old saying goes, if Trump cured cancer the left would denounce him for it.

Well, of course we would. Everyone should. The man has no medical degree, nor any experience in oncology or advanced medical research, why would we believe his claim that he cured cancer?

-- A2SG, plus there's his proven history of fraud to consider.....

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