fhansen said:

The real problem is people in general. Even the holiest of us will be imperfect relative to God. So some degree of corruption or compromise will always prevail here on this earth. But does that mean we should just give up and isolate ourselves?

Humans are both individual and social beings. Our relationship with God is individual but also corporate as the Body, with a unity, also yet imperfect in this life, that we were created to have.

So do we ignore injustice in this world, or, alternatively, simply depend on the goodwill of believers to somehow prevent or rectify injustices? Or, instead, does a just socieity unite together under some model of government and legislate against immoral behavior such as, say murder? Or against the excesses that capitalists might go to maximize profits, including the exploitation of labor, creation of monopolies, etc? Anyway, as long as people are involved there can be no perfect political or governmental system; they're all compromises that we must nonetheless use in order to promote the common good, hopefully guided by Christian principles to the best we can.

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Thats a good way of putting it and I agree. It seems that all of the political ideas and beliefs and wars are happening within a certain realm that is of the world.

As all humans know Gods laws you don't have to be a Christian to know this. But the world will have their ideas about what this represents and how we can order society and the world to apply this.

So for Gods Kingdom and Christs church as a community of Christians we are no of that realm in which these battles happen. We can pull out the value and moral similarities that come from politicial and civil ideologies. But they are not within the same realm and we can easily be overcome when trying to work within that worldly realm.

I think for Christians its a completely different realm and not of this world and as a community we have to be different in how we present the gospel and Christ to the world. If we mix it with world ideologies and within that frame we will lose. We will be competing on their terms.

So I think that means the only way to differentiate is Christ. It sounds simple but doing so is different to the war of words within the political arena. In fact it seems that todays arena is a post modernist one which undermines Christs truth by claiming there is no truth. So words themselves become the reality. You can't beat narratives about persoanl and subjective truths from experiences.

But what is the one thing everyone agrees on and which has turned people away from God. Its hypocracy. Its talking the talk and not walking the walk. They never see clearly the reality of Christ working within His church.

So logically if we apply this to Christians who are suppose to be the ones who are transfromed to be Christlike. If more Christians actually live what Christ taught in the bible then it stands to reason that Christians would not only have the words but live the words.

Thus being one group who cannot be accused as hypocrites.

Now that would doubly turn heads. Because not only for once is a group actually doing what they preach. But they are displaying what is suppose to be the very examples Peter says that will turn peoples heads to God without any words spoken.

Dan1988 said:

Please enlighten me, by showing me where the Bible says that unbelievers are annihilated, or that they cease to exist. Save yourself the headache and don't bother looking for that non existent doctrine, you will never find any such nonsense in the bible.

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Enlighten you? Doubtful that will happen. Many people have shown you scripture that you continue to ignore. So why bother?

zelosravioli said:

No man has died the second death yet - the Lake of fire - IS the ‘second’ death.

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Yes, exactly. It's so simple.

Stopped_lurking said:

I also have problem posting, and editing posts.

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Might be a sign this thread might have a mod looking through it.

Might, I say.

I can't post my full reply. How bizarre.

Test.

Nicolai said:

Frankly the question I want to ask if "How do you deal with there NOT being any evidence for any of that" or "How do you make sense of archaeological evidence directly contradicting the Old Testament (the size of Israel/Jerasulem under David & Solomon for one).".

I cannot stop thinking about this question! Every time I watch any content and they talk about Moses, Solomon, or David all I can think of is that they never existed the way the OT says. If they did why is there zero evidence to support those claims? We have records to support the claims made by the OT after the alleged reign of David but it would seem that everything written in the OT prior to the 8thish century is just cultural & national narrative. I try to understand this on a spiritual level and not on a literal but I can't stop thinking about it.

Has anyone else struggled with this? Is there evidence I am missing? Is there a way to think about this that doesn't make much of the Pentateuch essentially historical fiction?

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I think this will depend on the amount and quality of evidence. That in itself can be subjective and based on false assumptions due to a lack of data.

Part of this is understanding the context which not only includes the stories in relation to the Hebrew religion and culture but also of the entire worldview at the time and whether the stories are meant to be more of a spiritual revelation than completely reliant on scientific or verified eye witness accounts.

There are so many factors that need to be considered that I am surprised that anyone could make any truth claims without such investigation.

The only topic I know something about is the Exodus and as far as I see opinions have changed over time as new evidence or understandings come in. That in itself tells us that whatever it was that so called experts claimed as the facts was based on poor data.

Part of the problem may be the timelines and not necessarily whether something matches the biblical stories. But timelines themselves are questionable.

But we have clear evidence for much of what happened. In fact we now have evidence from the Egyptian side of the story which matches the bible. Such as the telling of the 10 plagues that hit Egypt at around this time by the Egyptians themselves. Speaking of plagues, rivers running red, sons dying and crops and cattle failing. This cannot just be a coincident.

There are other evidences I could cite. But as far as I know the evidence actually supports the Exodus story. It may not 100% but then some of that is more about perspective than reality. But there is clear evidence of a proto Isrealites in Egypt who rose up to become prominent and then escaped into the desert with many others.

Then we have them entering Canaan. We even have some evidence of the places they stopped. Mt Sinai, the alters with evidence of animal sacrifice. A memorial placed at the point where the Isrealites crossed the Red sea. Theres evidence from Egyptian Steles and letters and archeology.

I am not sure how deep you have gone into this but there are some good research out there and its amazing that people don't know this.

Actual EVIDENCE for the Exodus​

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PloverWing said:

I wouldn't want to have to draw Jesus in the poses that Charlie Hebdo chose for Muhammad, just to demonstrate that I'm different from Timothy McVeigh. Nobody should die over offensive speech, but nobody should be compelled to repeat the offensive speech, either.

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peter2 said:

The 4 evangelists have obviously disapproved all what they did to Jesus up to death, however silently.
Yet, i assume they considered a duty to write the Gospel.

Besides, i certainly would have disapproved an offending caricature of Jesus.
Yet, if a teacher teaching his pupils to keep cool had to be beheaded for showing them this document, i would also certainly have considered it a christian duty (to testify of this posthumous suffering of Jesus) to publish the document myself, in order to tell the whole story (even with illustrated caricatures).
it looks like i'm not worshipping the same person as muslims do

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May i conclude, please, from the non response there's no reason for me to think i've mistaken ?

Or, may be my message was not clear enough (?)
Please, could someone at least just tell me whether it was clear or not..

keras said:

Not very smart. Death can come to anyone at any time.

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Exactly.
So it doesn't matter if you say that Jesus is coming back in 20 years time and you will be in the Holy Land - you may not be alive then.
It doesn't matter if "the fiery wrath" is in a few years, we could be dead by then.

keras said:

The condition is; that we gather and live in the Holy Land. THEN Jesus will appear to His faithful Christian peoples

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Says no one except you.
Are you saying that we can delay the Lord's return simply by never going to live in the Holy Land?

keras said:

That the NC is not yet made, is proved by Hebrews 8:10-12 being unfulfilled.

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Again, so you say. but you haven't replied to my statement, and verses, about God's word being in our hearts now.

I don't know about you, but I am a New Testament (New Covenant) Christian - living after the resurrection and Pentecost, knowing God's forgiveness, assured of being his child and having his Word in my heart.

keras said:

A Covenant was not made with the 12 Disciples.

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The New Covenant is that anyone who comes to Jesus has eternal life, John 3:16, 3:36, 6:40.
Anyone who comes to Jesus and receives him, is a child of God, John 1:12.
That we can know that we are a child of God, Romans 8:16-17.
If anyone confesses their sin, God will forgive them and make them clean, 1 John 1:9.
That Jesus is our Good Shepherd, John 10:11. That he came to give us life, John 10:10 and that no one can snatch us from God's hand, John 10:29.

keras said:

The Disciples are all gone; the NC must be made between Jesus and living people.

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I'm a disciple and I'm still here.
All believers are disciples (learners) and followers.

keras said:

Those things are just the birth pangs of the new age to come. That they are getting closer together, is a sign of the immanence of the end.

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These things have always been happening.
For many people, WWI was the end. For many others, WWII was the end. People throughout history have said, "look, the end is nigh" - look at Harold Camping.

keras said:

How can anyone say that? It means you dismiss all the Prophecy from now until the Return

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I don't believe there is any new prophecy.
I don't dismiss OT prophecy, I just don't interpret it as you do.

rjs330 said:

that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles: knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

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I’m very glad that you find value, comfort and certainty, in the Bible.

My own thoughts are along the lines of the Bible being an excellent ancient set-of-texts, mostly intact for a 2600 years.
Decent, (if not entirely accurate) historical record of a people who Wrote worthwhile things down, even if it shades a bit in Israel’s favor.

That’s its “worth” to me; you’ll differ in my estimation of the Bible, I’m sure.
That’s great!

And while politics got me out of religion, (that’s just gravy though), I’m ever grateful to the subject/hobby*, I do not regret my time within a church.

Thanks for caring enough to continually deal with those of us (who are guests here) who cannot find their way to believe the same things as our gracious hosts.

Have a great night/morning!


*politics, not religion

keras said:

Please write out where Jesus mentions His Return in Matthew 24:36-44

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I've quoted these verses before.

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

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He doesn't say; "you don't know when the fiery wrath will begin" or anything else. He is talking about the coming of the Lord or Son of Man (himself).
The "fiery wrath" or a "CME" is not the Lord or the Son of Man.

keras said:

We know His 'coming' in fiery wrath,

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So you say.

keras said:

It is obvious that the event that comes unexpectedly, is not the Glorious Return.

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It's obvious to you and you're telling everyone else that this is the case.

No, air conditioning isn't common in Australian churches. No church I've worked in, or regularly worshipped in, has had it. Generally cooling is some very ineffective fans (heating is better).

High Fidelity said:

But yeah this is hilariously petty and childish. If they truly held those titles then it should be self-evident and not require a plaque.

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Even money sez there”s a chance that there will be an Executive Order (quietly published) to forbid anyone putting any kind of sign, plaque or other demarcation that doesn’t laud President Trump.

Trump, like many other people, has assumed that if you’re smart enough to be president, that’s brilliant on its own merit.
Many other people recognized that this isn’t necessarily true, since, at least Bill Clinton’s successor.

GoldenBoy89 said:

And the courts of the State of New York.

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Well NY’s “blue” so…(I’d concede the point).

samaus123456789 said:

You are really not wise are you.

• “Is the Didascalia Apostolorum written by the apostles?”

The correct answer based on exegesis is yes the text claims to be written by the apostles. You personally do not believe it is vs we scholars do( see what I did there).
You do not do exegesis you do eisegesis - you start with the assumption the internal claims to authorship are a lie for all these texts, then reject the internal claim of authorship of them. You believe the torah is pseudepigrapha but you are so dishonest you will not say it publicly. Chat GPT will assume the text is pseudepigrapha because websites written by people like you, and it was trained on that data which is why I have to tell it to do exegesis - that is assume the text is historical, and not pseudepigrapha.

Acts of Pilate is just one section of Gosp of Nic. There is another section not written by Pilate.

Also I forgot to ask- are you Christian? I will not waste my time any more if you are not.

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I'm a Christian, and a New Testament scholar of thirty years. You still need not waste your time, because I don't intend to waste time on someone like you. I have better things to do with my time than try to convince people of facts who can't be convinced of anything beyond the sound of their own voice.

You have a great day. I won't read your response, so don't bother.

Apple Sky said:

He didn't he is known as 'Odysee'.

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No, Odysee is the name of the video channel he used:

"ODSYSEE Explore a whole universe of videos on Odysee "

That was from Odysee's home page: Odysee

Good point/Post..
What you read..is correct.

Hans Blaster said:

When @sjastro wrote:

He was talking about me and himself and @Stopped_lurking and @BCP1928 and @Warden_of_the_Storm and anyone else who has fallen off from this never ending thread. This assessment seems reasonable.

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And I disagreed that it was reasonable by the simple fact that it is these social threads that are a pooer representation of what is actually going on.

I disagree of the framing that this is an either/or determining. That its either any old conspiracy or whatever idea you think is the conspiracy that you pick out of all that has been said as the true representation of anyone who proposes alternative and advanced knowledge.

I disagree with the premise in the first place. Its creating a strawman to then make out that this is all the same as the far fetched claims of aliens which is a specific group who support unfounded ideas about knowledge being handed down by aliens.

This is conflating every claim and idea about advanced knowledge on a level that clearly is designed to undermine the reasonable claims as well. In fact its a go to stereotype that is used often for just about everything that is said.

Hans Blaster said:

It wasn't a jib against you , it was a description of us (the not you).

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Yes and thats what I was speaking about. Not individuals but the narratives created or the strawmen created being the misrepresentation used that individuals then use to dismiss alternative and advanced knowledge.

Its a social phenomena and not an indiviual one. A social narrative or belief that individuals buy into or not. But nonetheless its a belief and not fact.

Hans Blaster said:

The long duration of this thread ahs clearly demonstrated that the sources you use are all drenched in pseudoscience.

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Another fallacy. Spending a long time on something must mean its whacko. It does not follow.

Hans Blaster said:

As for conspiracies, you can stop making conspiracy claims any time you want.

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If you mean ones made by others that all such talk about alternative and advanced knowledge is a conspiracy itself. Then no that won't stop until those making such false claims stop lol.

By the way lets shoot down the semantics as well. Whether its called a conspiracy, strawman, false representation or psuedoscience its all designed to undermine claims of alternative and advanced knowledge.

rjs330 said:

No it proves mine. We know what camp you are in.

that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles: knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming?



And you are still doing it.

I guess the writer of Proverbs is also correct.

He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults.

Thanks for the conversation.

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Repeating a prophecy that never came to fruition doesn't help. Nor does the writer of Peter's squabbles of who is an apostle and who is not. Again, context.