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Hentenza · 2025-12-07T10:59:37-0600

BNR32FAN said:
Yet we don’t have any passages ever indicating that they did actually carry a sword after that night.

Exactly.

Hentenza · 2025-12-07T10:59:10-0600

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see how that has anything to do with what He said in Luke 25. Just because He used the word sword?

The sword in general is a metaphor of strength. In Luke 25 Jesus gave the their disciples their second commission to go and spread the gospel of good news while in Rev. 1 Jesus is returning, Jesus is the Word. In both cases the metaphor is the strength of the word of God. He metaphorically tells that disciples to trust the word of God and defend it.

essentialsaltes · 2025-12-07T10:56:02-0600

Thank you for your attention to this stupid and nasty-gram!

Yarddog · 2025-12-07T10:53:02-0600

9Rock9 said:
So, I want to explore political philosophy and how it relates to Christianity.

Ideally, our faith should inform our politics, but not the other way around. Yet, this unfortunately not the case in reality. I don't intend to turn this into a finger pointing game between the left and the right, I just want to explore options here.

Should the government enact policies that reflect Christian policies?

One could argue yes, since a Christian government could provide a moral foundation for an otherwise secular society and arguably improves everyone's lives. On the other hand, one can say that the government would just bastardize Christianity and use it as a weapon for social control.

What about libertarianism? The Bible says to help the poor and needy. Yet, does that mean we should petition the government to do it, or is charity a personal responsibility for us as Christians, and thus we should not outsource it to the state?

Should there be a government? There are verses that seem to advocate for submitting to earthly authorities. Then again, many of these earthly authorities have, and sometimes still do, put innocent people to death. It can also be argued that the government has a monopoly on force and violence.

What are your thoughts?

I'm personally undecided, but that's why I made this thread. I want to see what others think to help me find out where I stand.

The problem isn't government. The problem is the people in governments. Corrupt people lead to corrupt governments.

Good people, in government, serve the people, regardless of political party or religion. Corrupt people, in government, serve themselves, regardless of political party or religion.

We need a government which serves the people. Not a government which serves those in power.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-12-07T10:51:52-0600

Only a week and already a sprout .

Hentenza · 2025-12-07T10:50:54-0600

Delvianna said:
The whole argument of Hebrews 4 is STILL keeping the sabbath and not doing it is linked to disobedience where you will "perish".

Actually that is not the case. The chapter begins with “therefore” so you have to read chapter 3 to understand what the conclusion that prompted the therefore is.

“Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still called “today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we keep the beginning of our commitment firm until the end, while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.” For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 3:12-19 Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still ca | New American Standard Bible - N

Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still ca

bible.com

This portion of chapter three refers to the dangers of unbelief and disobedience. Those that did not entered the promise land either by dying in the wilderness for unbelief or by being disobedient did not enter His rest.

“Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

bible.com

Talking to the Hebrew converts about the believer’s rest not about the sabbath rest.

“For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Downl

For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith.

bible.com

The good news was preached to the Hebrew converts but it did not benefit them because they are not united with those who listen with faith. The law is not of faith (Gal. 3:12). The gospel of good news does not include the law. This was an ongoing argument with the new converts from Judaism in that the law was no longer necessary but the Jews considered the law as part of their identity and culture (read Acts 21).

“For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “As I swore in My anger, They certainly shall not enter My rest,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY ANGER, THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB

For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY ANGER, THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

bible.com

What is that rest? The same one talked about at the beginning of the chapter which is the believer’s rest not the sabbath rest. Any Jew could observe the sabbath and enter into the sabbath rest but the quote from Psalm 95 makes it clear the it is different rest.

“For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this passage, “They certainly shall not enter My rest.””
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:4-5 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; and again in this passage, “THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Downloa

For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; and again in this passage, “THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”

bible.com

Look at the contrast. The writer clearly refers to the sabbath rest in the first part of the verse and then states that they are not going to enter such rest. Why would that be if any Jews could observe the sabbath? The temple was not destroyed yet so they could just go to the temple on the seventh day. No one is going to enter the believers rest unless they have accepted the gospel of good news and has faith.

“Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience

bible.com

This verse goes back to those that did not enter into the promise land depicted at the end of chapter three. They rejected the good news because if their disobedience and lack of faith as the previous verse teaches. See the use of the word “therefore” again?

“He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:7-8 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” For if Joshua had given them res | New American Standard Bible - NAS

He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” For if Joshua had given them res

bible.com

So a new day is set, today. There is urgency in accepting the gospel of good news and not continuing on the law. There is another issue here that the writer of Hebrews discusses in the next chapter that is also relevant here. The new converts remained uneducated about the gospel of good news (on milk instead of solid foods) hence still attempting to keep the law. Joshua (not Christ) walked the rest of Israel into the promise land but still did not give them rest even though he carried the law with him. There is now a different rest.

“Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:9-10 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible Ap

Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

bible.com

The mention of the sabbath rest here is a shadow of the actual sabbath rest as evidenced by the previous verses. Joshua entered the promise land with the law at hand but did not provided them rest. Then those that do enter His rest, the believers rest, has rested from his works which here is the works of the law. Look at the sentence construction here. The fist part of the verse mentions a sabbath rest left but the second part of the post only mentions His rest which is consistent with the chapter so far talking about a believers rest.

“Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 4:11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.

bible.com

Notice here that it is THAT rest not the sabbath rest that we are to enter. The rest that we have to enter is the believers rest that we enter by faith. It even exhorts us to be careful not to follow the example of those listed at the bottom of chapter three that did not enter the promise land because of their lack of faith and disobedience.

Delvianna said:
It comes down to this, you have to ignore this chapter in order to say keeping the sabbath doesn't matter.

Not really. You have to read the chapter in context. Remember that when the Bible was written there were no chapters or verse numbers so you have to read the reason for the conclusion in what is now chapter 4 by following the thread from chapter 3.

Delvianna said:
That is picking and choosing what you want to follow and accept. Using God's grace, or sacrifice on the cross to argue against Hebrews 4 is misunderstanding what God did and what he still expects from us. The scriptural truth has to incorporate all teachings and verses while not ignoring a single point or verse. This is why understanding context matters. The context of Hebrews 4 is obedience vs disobedience. When you introduce concepts like grace, resting in Jesus, and justification, the context of those concepts are different.

Yep. Context does indeed matter.

Delvianna said:
Resting in Jesus :
Matthew 11:28-29: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

The context: Is talking about a general practice of seeking rest in Him for everyday trials and tribulations because the Lord can handle it. That's not the same context of the sabbath where you are required to not work. One is dealing with literal work/labor (ie: a job), the other is dealing with the souls need for peace.

The problem with this interpretation is that the actual purpose of the sabbath commandment was not really to just don’t work that day but to reserve a day to worship. The cultural and historical context shows that life during and before biblical times was hard as a result of Adam’s sin (Gen 3:17). Most people would work seven days a week and not have time to worship God. Jesus rest now wants us to worship Him TODAY not just on Saturday. His yoke is easy because we are no longer under the toils of the law.

Delvianna said:
Grace:
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The concept is, that even if we were the most obedient people on the planet, we need God's grace to forgive us from the disobedience that we've done. And since not following the sabbath is "disobedience" according to Hebrews 4, we need God's grace to forgive us of that. But then Paul argues that we don't continue in disobedience so that Grace may increase:

No works are necessary for salvation. Good works flow naturally from saving faith. The law no longer is our guardian because faith has arrived and Jesus nailed the law to the cross.

Delvianna said:
Romans 6:1-2: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

So since we aren't supposed to continually live in sin (sin = disobedience 1 John 3:4), and since Jesus calls us to continue in obedience (John 14:15), we are still called to follow the Sabbath. Not doing so equals disobedience which equals death because that's not abiding in the vine (John 15:4) and are not apart of him (1 John 2:4).

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:1-4 Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law c | New American Standard Bible - NASB

Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law c

bible.com

Why is there no longer condemnation for those in Christ? Why was the law weak? Why did the law of the Spirit in Christ set us free free from the law of sin? You have to factor these into your understanding. Paul is not bipolar defending the law in one place and then teaching that we are no longer under the law in another place. Your interpretation causes quite a bit of scriptural tension.

BPPLEE · 2025-12-07T10:50:32-0600

The Barbarian said:
The election. Biden beat Trump convincingly. Yes, Trump whined and threw tantrums, even incited an insurrection to stop the certification of the election. But Biden beat him.

And imagine the howls of MAGA if Joe Biden had kept falling asleep in meetings as Trump has. Dozy Don is clearly not as sharp as Biden was during his presidency.

Yes, Biden beat Trump, but his mental decline was so bad over the next 4 years his own party deemed him unfit to run for office. Then Trump beat Harris, the best the Democrats had to offer

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-07T10:47:58-0600

Isaiah in the 700s BC says

ch 19: 19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt.
The elephantine papyri discovered in Egypt, and dated to 408 BC says the Judean temple in Egypt on the island of Elephantine was destroyed about 410 BC (the 14th year of Darius). So the temple was built sometime after that prophecy in Isaiah then eventually destroyed
B19
Letter from the Jews of Elephantine (Formatted Transcript)

To our lord
Bagavahya,
governor of Judah,
your servants Jedaniah
and his colleagues the priests
who are in Elephantine the fortress.

The welfare of our lord
may the God of Heaven seek after abundantly at all times,
and favor may He grant you before Darius the king
and the princes
more than now a thousand times,
and long life may He give you,
and happy and strong may you be at all times.

Report

Now, your servant Jedaniah and his colleagues thus say:

Plot

In the month of Tammuz, year 14 of Darius the king,
when Arsames had departed and gone to the king,
the priests of Khnum who are in Elephantine the fortress,
in agreement with Vidranga who was Chief here,
(said), saying:

“The Temple of YHW the God which is in Elephantine the fortress—
let them remove it from there.”

Afterwards, that Vidranga, the wicked,
a letter sent to Naphaina his son,
who was Troop Commander in Syene the fortress,
saying:

“The Temple which is in Elephantine the fortress—let them demolish.”

Afterwards, Naphaina led the Egyptians with the other troops.
They came to the fortress of Elephantine with their implements,
broke into that Temple, demolished it to the ground,
and the pillars of stone which were there—they smashed.

Moreover, it happened that the gateways of stone,
built of hewn stone,
which were in that Temple, they demolished.
And their standing doors, and the hinges of those doors, of bronze,
and the roof of wood of cedar—
all of these, with the rest of the fittings and other things which were there—
all of these with fire they burned.

But the basins of gold and silver
and the other things which were in that Temple—
all of these took and made their own.

Precedents

And from the days of the king(s) of Egypt
our fathers had built that Temple in Elephantine the fortress
and when Cambyses entered Egypt—
that Temple, built, he found it.
And the temples of the gods of Egypt, all of them, they overthrew,
but anything in that Temple one did not damage.

And when this had been done to us,
we with our wives and our children
sackcloth were wearing
and fasting and praying to YHW the Lord of Heaven
who let us gloat over that Vidranga, the cur.
They removed the fetter from his feet
and all goods which he had acquired were lost.
And all persons who sought evil for that Temple,
all of them were killed and we gazed upon them.

Moreover, before this, at the time that this evil was done to us,
a letter we sent to our lord,
and to Jehohanan the High Priest and his colleagues the priests
who are in Jerusalem,
and to Ostares brother of Anani
and the nobles of the Jews.
A letter they did not send us.

Moreover, from the month of Tammuz, year 14 of Darius the king
and until this day,
we, sackcloth are wearing and are fasting;
the wives of ours as widow(s) are made;
(with) oil we do not anoint ourselves,
and wine do not drink.

Moreover, from that time and until this day,
year 17 of Darius the king,
meal-offering and incense and burnt-offering
they did not make in that Temple.

Petition

Now, your servants Jedaniah and his colleagues
and the Jews, all of them citizens of Elephantine,
thus say:

If to our lord it is good,
take thought of that Temple to rebuild—
since they do not let us rebuild it.

Regard your obliges and your friends here in Egypt.
May a letter from you be sent to them
about the Temple of YHW the God
to rebuild it in Elephantine the fortress
just as it had been built formerly.

And the meal-offering and the incense and the burnt-offering
they will offer on the altar of YHW the God in your name
and we shall pray for you at all times—
we and our wives and our children
and the Jews, all of them who are here.

If thus they do until that Temple be rebuilt,
a merit you will have before YHW the God of Heaven
more than a person who will offer Him burnt-offering and sacrifices
whose worth is as the worth of silver, 1 thousand talents,
and about gold.

About this we have sent and informed you.

Moreover, all these things in a letter
we sent to Jehohanan and Shelemiah
sons of Sanballat governor of Samaria.

Moreover, about this which was done to us
Arsames did not know.

Josephus also mentions a Judean temple built in Egypt at a different time
Josephus
Judean wars book 7 chapter 10

2. Now Lupus did then govern Alexandria. Who presently sent Cæsar word of this commotion. Who having in suspicion the restless temper of the Jews for innovation, and being afraid lest they should get together again, and persuade some others to join with them, gave orders to Lupus to demolish that Jewish temple which was in the region called Onion, and was in Egypt. (18) Which was built, and had its denomination from the occasion following. Onias, the son of Simon, one of the Jewish High-priests, fled from Antiochus, the King of Syria, when he made war with the Jews, and came to Alexandria. And as Ptolemy received him very kindly, on account of his hatred to Antiochus, he assured him, that if he would comply with his proposal, he would bring all the Jews to his assistance. And when the King agreed to do it, so far as he was able; he desired him to give him leave to build a temple somewhere in Egypt, and to worship God according to the customs of his own country. For that the Jews would then be so much readier to fight against Antiochus, who had laid waste the temple at Jerusalem; and that they would then come to him with greater good will; and that by granting them liberty of conscience, very many of them would come over to him.

3. So Ptolemy complied with his proposals; and gave him a place one hundred and eighty furlongs distant from Memphis. (19) That Nomos was called the Nomos of Heliopolis. Where Onias built a fortress; and a temple, not like to that at Jerusalem, but such as resembled a tower. He built it of large stones, to the height of sixty cubits.27 He made the structure of the altar in imitation of that in our own country, and in like manner adorned with gifts: excepting the make of the candlestick. For he did not make a candlestick; but had a [single] lamp hammered out of a piece of gold; which illuminated the place with its rays, and which he hung by a chain of gold. But the intire temple was encompassed with a wall of burnt brick, though it had gates of stone. The King also gave him a large country for a revenue in money; that both the priests might have a plentiful provision made for them; and that God might have great abundance of what things were necessary for his worship. Yet did not Onias do this out of a sober disposition.28 But he had a mind to contend with the Jews at Jerusalem; and could not forget the indignation he had for being banished thence. Accordingly he thought, that by building this temple he should draw away a great number from them to himself. There had been also a certain ancient prediction made by [a prophet] whose name was Isaiah, about six hundred years before, that this temple should be built by a man that was a Jew in Egypt. And this is the history of the building of that temple. 4. And now Lupus, the governor of Alexandria, upon the receipt of Cæsar’s letter, came to the temple, and carried out of it some of the donations dedicated thereto, and shut up the temple itself. And as Lupus died a little afterward [about A.D. 75], Paulinus succeeded him. This man left none of those donations there: and threatened the priests severely, if they did not bring them all out. Nor did he permit any who were desirous of worshipping God there, so much as to come near the whole sacred place. But when he had shut up the gates, he made it intirely inaccessible: insomuch that there remained no longer the least footsteps of any divine worship that had been in that place. Now the duration of the time from the building of this temple till it was shut up again was three hundred and forty-three years.29

343 years is wrong. If it was built in the 160s BC, and stopped functioning 75 AD that is about 234 years. Josephus thought it fulfilled the Isaiah 19 prophecy. Maybe the Isaiah 19 prophecy was a double prophecy about both temples...

At the end of Zechariah (515 BC) 14 it says

17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord[b] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite[c] in the house of the Lord Almighty.
About half of the events in Zech 14 can be shown to of happened past tense in 1/2 Maccabees in the 160s BC- looting lots of gold, silver, and other treasures, half being killed half not killed, fleeing to the mountains, lots of angels fighting with the Israelites, Antiochus flesh rots, and worms eat him, they burn their enemies alive so their flesh melts, rebuilding the walls. The MT of Olives part is not mentioned past tense but it must of happened in that time frame, and closed back up after. The bit at the end about the Egyptians is only about the Judean Egyptians not the non Judean Egyptians which makes sense in context of the Judean temple in Egypt Josephus talks about. Or it was about all Egyptians not sure. If it was all of them I don't think it was recorded anywhere.

Zech 14 says You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

The you was the Israelites that all lived in Jerusalem near the Mt of Olives. They had ancestors that fled the earthquake hundreds of years prior. The Israelites religion was a Judah based religion centered around a temple, and that religion ceased to exist 30-70 AD, and will never come back again so the very latest the prophecy could of been fulfilled was 70 AD. It was not about Jesus, and will never happen again.

Josephus on the earthquake

Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews 9:10:4

While Uzziah was in this state and making preparations (for futurity), he was corrupted in his mind by pride, and became insolent, and this on account of that abundance which he had of things that will soon perish, and despised that power which is of eternal duration (which consisted in piety towards god, and in the observation of his laws); so he fell by occasion of the good success of his affairs, and was carried headlong into those sins of his father, which the splendour of that prosperity he enjoyed, and the glorious actions he had done, led him into, while he was not able to govern himself well about them. Accordingly, when a remarkable day was come, and a general festival was to be celebrated, he put on the holy garment, and went into the temple to offer incense to God upon the golden altar, which he was prohibited to do by Azariah the high priest, who had fourscore priests with him, and who told him that it was not lawful for him to offer sacrifice, and that "none besides the posterity of Aaron were permitted so to do." And when they cried out, that he must go out of the temple, and not transgress against God, he was wroth at them, and threatened to kill them, unless they would hold their peace. In the meantime, a great earthquake shook the ground, and a rent was made in the temple, and the bright rays of the sun shone through it, and fell upon the king's face, insomuch that the leprosy seized upon him immediately; and before the city, at a place called Eroge, half the mountain broke off from the rest on the west, and rolled itself four furlongs, and stood still at the east mountain, till the roads, as well as the king's garden, were spoiled by the obstruction. Now as soon as the priest saw that the king's face was infected with the leprosy, they told him of the calamity he was under, and commanded that he should go out of the city as a polluted person. Hereupon he was so confounded at the sad distemper, and sensible that he was not at liberty to contradict, that he did as he was commanded, and underwent this miserable and terrible punishment for an intention beyond what befitted a man to have, and for that impiety against God which was implied therein. So he abode out of the city for some time, and lived a private life, while his son Jotham took the government; after which he died with grief and anxiety at what had happened to him, when he had lived sixty-eight years, and reigned of them fifty-two; and was buried by himself in his own gardens.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-07T10:47:45-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
2 Cor 6:2

For He says:
“In an acceptable time I have heard you,
And in the day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Today is the day of salvation, today if we hear His voice do not harden our heart in rebellion, sin and disobedience. Heb3:7-19 We have no idea what tomorrow brings.

This has nothing to do with the day being the Sabbath, its the day of Salvation which we should accept God as our Lord and Savior TODAY and turn from our sin and rebellion from Him TODAY= rebellion is not subjecting ourselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8 depending on what we feel is right and wrong instead of what God says.

Yes, we turn from our works, we enter his rest :doh:

BNR32FAN · 2025-12-07T10:47:45-0600

Hentenza said:
Are you advocating pulling a gun out on police to “protect” your family?

It doesn’t matter if it’s a police officer or not. Police are just people who are susceptible to corruption just like everyone else. Somebody trying to harm my family is someone trying to harm my family whether he’s a police officer or the president of the United States. I’m not about to stand aside and allow them to do it just because they hold a certain title or occupation.

essentialsaltes · 2025-12-07T10:47:13-0600

Three-year-old child forced to serve as her own attorney in Tucson immigration court

The child, barely old enough to talk, was one of 25 immigrant children forced to fight removal efforts by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) at the Pima County immigration courthouse in Tucson on Nov. 24.

Judge Feldman [postponed] her next hearing to March 2026 [to allow the toddler time to find and retain an attorney].

At Lucy’s first hearing in August, an attorney with FIRRP explained that despite a desire to assist the child, the nonprofit lost most of their federal funding in March after the Trump administration terminated contracts. As a result of the funding cuts, the group is unable to take on new clients despite continued demand for their legal services.

Judges typically allow young respondents additional time to find legal counsel,

But hiring an attorney is expensive, and even older children of working age cannot work without a proper work authorization. As a result, many of these children, who are already constrained by living in a shelter, do not have the money to hire an immigration attorney

As a result, the children often have to fend for themselves, or hope already-stretched thin nonprofits will fill in the gaps.

Others, like Lucy, are too young to understand what’s going on in the first place, which results in the absurd theater of a three-year-old defending themselves in court.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-07T10:43:04-0600

timf said:
A relative born in 1918 once derided the previous generation saying that their best friends were their siblings and cousins. He had been to college in the late 30s and thought he was a sort of "citizen of the world". He traveled in financial circles and did not understand that his "friendship" was sought for financial advantage.

We now live at a time when families have been decimated and "society" is the stream in which we swim. This in itself is not very conducive to real friendships. With shrunken families, geographical distances, and limited free time one would have difficulty making friends even without a general repudiation of Christianity not to mention a disinclination of delving deeper into doctrine.

We can be thankful to God in all times.

BPPLEE · 2025-12-07T10:42:52-0600

The Barbarian said:
I'm failing to see evidence of Biden falling asleep in meetings. Biden has had his share of gaffes though. Nothing on the level of "windmills cause cancer" or "magnets don't work in water":, but gaffes nonetheless.

Trump wanders off during walk with Japanese Prime Minister
Donald Trump appeared to wander off while being given a tour by new Japanese prime minister Sanae Takaichi.
During a welcome ceremony, the new leader of Japan guided the president around a room filled with troops and dignitaries.
At one point, Trump saluted the US and Japanese flags and then kept walking, leaving Takaichi behind to bow to the flags alone. On two other occasions, she had to direct him where to walk.
During the trip to Asia, Trump confirmed that he’d had an MRI during a visit to Walter Reed Medical Center but would not disclose the reason.

https://www.the-independent.com/tv/news/donald-trump-japan-prime-minister-wanders-b2853874.html

WASHINGTON, DC: President Donald Trump faced online mockery as he wandered away before signing executive orders and was guided back on Wednesday, April 2.

Trump guided back to sign orders after wandering off in viral clip, Internet calls it 'Biden moment'

President Donald Trump faced mockery after a viral video showed him wandering away before signing executive orders during a Rose Garden ceremony

news.meaww.com

Trump forgets what his limo looks like and wanders off from his airplane
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And now we're told his "executive time" wherein he does social media and watches television, has been expanded to much of the day:

Leaked schedule shows how many hours Donald Trump spends at the office
Donald Trump has been savaged for his work hours and spends most of his day in “executive time”, a stunning report suggests.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/leaked-schedule-shows-how-many-hours-donald-trump-spends-at-the-office/news-story/034ba2e8a37bc49156594fc8a2bfd011

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GoldenBoy89 · 2025-12-07T10:40:17-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
Is that the norm in Christian-majority countries?

Map of Jurisdictions that Criminalise LGBT People | Human Dignity Trust

LGBT people are criminalised in 65 jurisdictions worldwide. Find out where with our map.

www.humandignitytrust.org

And in other report by the National Secular Society, it also draws some noteworthy contrasts:

35 of the 53 Muslim-majority countries have laws that criminalise homosexuality
31 of the ~120 Christian-majority countries have laws that criminalise homosexuality

The remaining five countries include Nigeria, which has a roughly 50-50 split of Muslims and Christians. The other four are either Hindu or Buddhist majority. No country with a nonreligious majority bans homosexuality.

Ten countries prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality. Apart from Nigeria, every one of these countries is Muslim-majority. The penalty is based on sharia law.

Noting: Uganda's law isn't a blanket capital punishment for all homosexuality

Their law prescribes the death penalty for certain acts of "aggravated homosexuality". These are defined as: those who have homosexual sex with minors, with persons aged over 75 years, persons with disabilities, without or unable to consent, or with a person who is mentally ill. Anyone having infected others with a serious infectious disease such as HIV/AIDS, are also liable to be convicted as perpetrators of "aggravated homosexuality".

(obviously that still presents an issue with equality under the law if gay people are getting harsher punishments for the same crimes than their straight counterparts who also commit those types of crimes)

So if we run the numbers just to do a little "odds analysis" of certain likelihoods.

If a territory is Majority-Muslim
67% chance they'll end up with laws criminalizing gay people
17% chance they'll impose the death penalty for it

If a territory is Majority-Christian
25% chance they'll end up with laws criminalizing gay people
0.8% chance they'll impose the death penalty for it

...and if you only consider Westernized Majority-Christian countries, those numbers drop to practically 0.

So I don't think we do any sort of public service by conveying some sort of equivalency.

Nor is it particularly productive to, in the name of "inclusion", prop up some sort of standard of "Well, you're not perfect, and until you are perfect, you have no moral standing to criticize this other imperfect culture, attempt to limit its influence, or try to establish guardrails for them" (when that other culture, by all objective metrics, is blatantly a far worse offender, and it's not even close)

I’m just pointing out there is some ideological overlap between the various Abrahamic religions. They all read out of ancient books saying gays should be killed for their sins. There’s just degrees of separation between them and how far they take that part of the scriptures to heart.

Nithavela · 2025-12-07T10:39:48-0600

DaisyDay said:
From the article:

Trump hosted Kagame and Congolese officials at the recently renamed Trump Institute of Pace in Washington, D.C., on Thursday for the signing of the peace agreement.

I think they meant "Peace" not "Pace". Whatever happened to the tradition of naming things after a president only after he has died or at least left office?

Considering that Trump is immortal and will remain president for the rest of the existence of planet earth, I don't see the sensibility of continuing this practice.

Strong in Him · 2025-12-07T10:39:07-0600

jonojim1337 said:
Well my claim was simply, there is no recorded flight that passes the pole and onto the other side.

Well as commercial flights very rarely, if ever, happen, there's no reason why there should be. That's not the same as saying that it cannot happen - i.e it's impossible.
Admittedly, you may not have been saying that, but I know that @Apple Sky has and does.

BNR32FAN · 2025-12-07T10:38:17-0600

Hentenza said:
It was not a call to violence and no where did I argued that. They were indeed entering an uncertain and dangerous time which parallels the reason why we carry a firearm for protection these days.

Yet we don’t have any passages ever indicating that they did actually carry a sword after that night.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-07T10:37:26-0600

samaus123456789 said:
I was just looking at that. That part is a letter from the Spartans to the Jews. Basically they are sucking up to the Jews to make a political alliance. Jews write back in the same chapter calling the Spartans their brothers. Or maybe they were not sucking up maybe they were physically descended from Abraham based on this here saying the Spartans believed they came from Heracles / Hercules

The Jews of Sparta: Diplomatic Origins of Religious Synchronization.

By Pat Lowinger Were the Spartans actually ancient Jews? Of course not, but within the turbulent political period of the 2nd century BCE there appears to have been a desire by the Kingdom of Israe…

discoveringancienthistory.wordpress.com

and Josephus saying Hercules was a descendent of Abraham

The Antiquities of the Jews, 1.240–1.241
Flavius Josephus translated by William Whiston
240And indeed Alexander Polyhistor gives his attestation to what I here say; who speaks thus: “Cleodemus the prophet, who was also called Malchus, who wrote a History of the Jews, in agreement with the History of Moses, their legislator, relates, that there were many sons born to Abraham by Keturah: 241nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two, Apher and Japbran, the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra’s daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated.”

But the Spartans did not circumcize which was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis so if they were descended from Abraham it is strange they did not follow that custom.

No, it’s not actually strange. Galatians 5.

Also,

essentialsaltes · 2025-12-07T10:37:16-0600

essentialsaltes said:
Indiana’s governor and at least 8 lawmakers have been swatted or threatened as state Republicans face redistricting pressure

Threats pile up as Indiana Republicans confront pressure from Trump on redistricting

[It's up to a dozen, now]

It’s a bewildering and frightening experience for lawmakers who consider themselves loyal party members and never imagined they would be doing their jobs under the same shadow of violence that has darkened American political life in recent years.

Perpetual Student · 2025-12-07T10:36:02-0600

Servus said:
Loaded questions also carry a premise. Yours was obvious. It was basically an accusation in the form of a question that was asked in bad faith.

Then here come two non-loaded questions, that I have asked multiple times in this thread but nobody did answer yet. So let me repeat:
1) are you in favour of applying and protecting the rule of law, without ifs or buts and without exceptions?
2) Do you adhere to the principe that anybody is innocent until proven guilty?

BNR32FAN · 2025-12-07T10:34:27-0600

Hentenza said:
I’m not saying that it is not possible but I’m having a problem with by which extent if any. Statistics can be manipulated to support a political agenda.

Yeah I 100% agree because in the majority of statistics that’s exactly what’s happening. In fact that’s usually the reason for conducting the study in the first place.

BNR32FAN · 2025-12-07T10:33:07-0600

Say it aint so said:
No one is saying it is one cause. What I am saying as gun restrictions become less a thing, then expect more gun violence.

I would say that you’d have to separate gun attacks from gun defense, you can’t lump defense situations in with attack situations. Obviously if people have a gun to defend themselves you’re going to have guns involved in violent incidents.

timf · 2025-12-07T10:32:57-0600

A relative born in 1918 once derided the previous generation saying that their best friends were their siblings and cousins. He had been to college in the late 30s and thought he was a sort of "citizen of the world". He traveled in financial circles and did not understand that his "friendship" was sought for financial advantage.

We now live at a time when families have been decimated and "society" is the stream in which we swim. This in itself is not very conducive to real friendships. With shrunken families, geographical distances, and limited free time one would have difficulty making friends even without a general repudiation of Christianity not to mention a disinclination of delving deeper into doctrine.

BCP1928 · 2025-12-07T10:32:45-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
Is that the norm in Christian-majority countries?

Map of Jurisdictions that Criminalise LGBT People | Human Dignity Trust

LGBT people are criminalised in 65 jurisdictions worldwide. Find out where with our map.

www.humandignitytrust.org

And in other report by the National Secular Society, it also draws some noteworthy contrasts:

35 of the 53 Muslim-majority countries have laws that criminalise homosexuality
31 of the ~120 Christian-majority countries have laws that criminalise homosexuality

The remaining five countries include Nigeria, which has a roughly 50-50 split of Muslims and Christians. The other four are either Hindu or Buddhist majority. No country with a nonreligious majority bans homosexuality.

Ten countries prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality. Apart from Nigeria, every one of these countries is Muslim-majority. The penalty is based on sharia law.

Noting: Uganda's law isn't a blanket capital punishment for all homosexuality

Their law prescribes the death penalty for certain acts of "aggravated homosexuality". These are defined as: those who have homosexual sex with minors, with persons aged over 75 years, persons with disabilities, without or unable to consent, or with a person who is mentally ill. Anyone having infected others with a serious infectious disease such as HIV/AIDS, are also liable to be convicted as perpetrators of "aggravated homosexuality".

(obviously that still presents an issue with equality under the law if gay people are getting harsher punishments for the same crimes than their straight counterparts who also commit those types of crimes)

So if we run the numbers just to do a little "odds analysis" of certain likelihoods.

If a territory is Majority-Muslim
67% chance they'll end up with laws criminalizing gay people
17% chance they'll impose the death penalty for it

If a territory is Majority-Christian
25% chance they'll end up with laws criminalizing gay people
0.8% chance they'll impose the death penalty for it

...and if you only consider Westernized Majority-Christian countries, those numbers drop to practically 0.

So I don't think we do any sort of public service by conveying some sort of equivalency.

Nor is it particularly productive to, in the name of "inclusion", prop up some sort of standard of "Well, you're not perfect, and until you are perfect, you have no moral standing to criticize this other imperfect culture, attempt to limit its influence, or try to establish guardrails for them" (when that other culture, by all objective metrics, is blatantly a far worse offender, and it's not even close)

Are you talking about culture or morality? I can't keep track.

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Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews 9:10:4​

Three-year-old child forced to serve as her own attorney in Tucson immigration court​

Trump wanders off during walk with Japanese Prime Minister​

Leaked schedule shows how many hours Donald Trump spends at the office​

The Antiquities of the Jews, 1.240–1.241​

Indiana’s governor and at least 8 lawmakers have been swatted or threatened as state Republicans face redistricting pressure​

Threats pile up as Indiana Republicans confront pressure from Trump on redistricting​

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Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews 9:10:4

Three-year-old child forced to serve as her own attorney in Tucson immigration court

Trump wanders off during walk with Japanese Prime Minister

Leaked schedule shows how many hours Donald Trump spends at the office

The Antiquities of the Jews, 1.240–1.241

Indiana’s governor and at least 8 lawmakers have been swatted or threatened as state Republicans face redistricting pressure

Threats pile up as Indiana Republicans confront pressure from Trump on redistricting