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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Although I don't believe this apparently scientists believe life formed on its own

Then don't jump into my posts with another lol. It was not about you but a disagreement I was having with another person. I know my own arguements with others and what is being said and how to respond to this. I don't need your help lol.
Steve, you need a lot of help, but the primary help you need here is to finally learn what "on-topic" and "off-topic" are since you clearly don't grok those concepts.

Not only is mind/body not on-topic for a thread about abiogensis/OOL, you used "Dark Ages" completely wrong. It is not a philosophical or theological movement or change or moment. Dark Ages is a term historians used to use (and they are moving away from it as I understand it) to refer to the dearth of historical records in western Europe covering the period between the fall of the western Roman empire and start of the medieval period (roughly 5-7th century CE).
That just makes it worse lol. You don't know the context in which I was discussing this and why I was responding the way I did.

I was the other way around. The Dark Ages and Hellinistic thought was being used to negate that Christianity has its own knowledge about the mind and body divide.

The original point was about how religious belief and Christianity inparticular does not need a lesson in the idea of mind and body. That its a human inclination to believe such things and that Christianity as far as Christians are concern hold the truth to the mind and body divide.

So please if you are going to jump in then know the context. Otherwise you are going to make these false representations of what was going on.
I get the general gist of your off-topic discussion on mind/body and I don't care. You picked the wrong thread and sub-forum. Go pick a better one where it is on topic and leave us alone.
By the way you should care about philsophy because the thread is about philosophy lol. You can't engage properly in the thread without philsophy. It is the very debate as to the belief in whether life was formed on its own.

How could science even prove that life began on its own. You would have to step into metaphysics.
We could discuss the origin of life (not silly things like metaphysics), but someone keeps posting off topic material.
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Preservationists sue Trump for ballroom project reviews and congressional approval

President Donald Trump was sued on Friday by preservationists asking a federal court to halt his White House ballroom project until it goes through multiple independent reviews and wins approval from Congress.

Continued below.

Experiencing heaven on earth?

I think the expression "heaven on earth" can be pretty straight forward - like being about feeling like you're in a paradise or utopia in your everyday life. There is also the expression "hell on earth".

A few years ago I was talking to a liberal Anglican pastor and she was saying that heaven and hell can be on earth (I assume she was talking about states of mind).
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Yes there is many saying that really are not based on any Biblical fact from scripture.
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Shootings at Bondi Beach

Yes, we do have strict gun control laws, but organised crime and terrorist cells will always manage to get hold of weapons.

When another bloke and I were putting up a fence line from our house to the side fence, I said "I suppose this will make the place a bit more secure than it was".

The other bloke quipped, "Yes, it will keep the honest people out". And that's about it.

It seems they intended to detonate an IED but failed to so so thankfully. Likewise terrorists can get their hands on those components as well, whereas the ordinary honest citizen wouldn't even know where to start.
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Why we are not supposed to keep the Sabbath

It is said by God about Abraham, that Isaac was blessed "Because" that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws..

God also said of Abraham, "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and "they shall keep the way of the LORD", to do justice and judgment"; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Consider the incredible hubris and foolishness of a man who would imply in his teaching, that the only Laws, Statutes and Commandments of God given to Abraham, were those that God had recorded at the time. That somehow, the only Law, Commandment and Statute and Judgment that existed before Moses, was the command to cut the loose skin of the mans penis, which is the ONLY Law recorded, that was given to Abraham, that was to apply to future generations.

Such a philosophy is absurd, but according to your post, if I am "Sola Scripture", then that is the standard you would require of me. Do you really believe that we are privy to EVERY Conversation God had with Noah, when HE walked with him? Or EVERY detail of the conversations God had with Abraham when God defined for Abraham, "The Way of the Lord", His Judgments, Statutes, Commandments and Laws? Clearly God showed him His commandments, judgments and Statutes, even though God didn't Inspire it to be written down until the Exodus.

We know adultery is a Commandment of God, because God says so in Ex. 20. We also know that Abimelech knew that God commanded not to commit adultery, and also knew the wages of this sin is death. Clearly God showed him His commandment, even though God didn't Inspire it to be written down until the Exodus.

Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. But we are not privy to the contents of all the discussions that took place when Noah walked with God, in fact, we are not privy to any of those discussion. Are we to believe God didn't speak to Noah, except the words recording in Scripture? The mindset that there was no Judgment of God concerning what animals were for food, and what animals were not, because God's Judgments concerning them were not written down until the Exodus is foolishness, in my view. Clearly Noah and God had discussed His Judgments, even though God chose not to include you in the conversation.

Noah's sons knew Gods Commandment concerning the wickedness of looking on the nakedness of their father. One son refused to honor God in this known commandment, and was punished, which the other two sons honored God in His Commandment. Clearly God showed them His commandments, even though God didn't include us in the conversation.

The philosophy that the Commandment didn't exist, or was not obeyed before God inspired Moses to write it down is a complete rejection of what is actually written, and frankly absurd. Why would a person even make such a declaration?

Paul said;

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

That would also include Abraham, Yes? And Sodom as well. Or is it your contention that God kills men for disobeying His Commandments HE never gave to them?

Noah was a "preacher of Righteousness", accord to what is written in the Holy Scriptures, doesn't that mean that God revealed His Righteousness unto Noah? Shall I then reject Paul's teaching, because God didn't include you in the discussion where God was revealing His Righteousness to Noah?

I am "Sola Scripture". It is "Because" of scripture, that I believe God gave Noah and Abraham His instruction in Righteousness, Judgments, Commandments, Statutes and Laws. I have no reason or certainly authority to exclude a commandment of God, just because a religious voice in the Garden placed me in, who "Professes to know God", teaches to exclude it.

Your argument that God's instruction in Righteousness HE gave to Abraham, was different that God's instruction in Righteousness HE gave to Abraham's Children, has no Scriptural Support. But the religious tradition to promote such foolishness, has existed in this world for a long time before God placed me here.

So the argument that God Set apart and Sanctified and made Holy, the 7th days of the Week, and according to the Jesus "of the Bible", did so "FOR MAN", but didn't give it to man until the Exodus, because it wasn't written down until Exodus, has no more scriptural support than an argument that God didn't give Cain and Abel His Commandment "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart", or "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" because it wasn't written down until the Exodus.

What was right and wrong for Noah and Abraham, was also right and wrong, for Noah's and Abraham's Children, in my view. And this because of Paul's teaching, "For there is no respect of persons with God".

To preach that God's definition of righteousness is different for one man than another, might be popular in the religions of this world, but is not representative of the teaching of the God "of the Bible", according to my understanding of Scriptures.
In other words your argument is from silence. Got it.
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Trump sued by preservationists seeking reviews and congressional approval for ballroom project

Likewise, as I mentioned before, there's practical security reasons for being able to host larger government social functions on WH property as opposed trying to secure public venues like hotels, etc...
Trump was in Pennsylvania last weekend (?), I think you are overstating the benefit.
And the motion picture industry paying for renovations because "landing a screening at the White House family theater" was a valuable marketing tool is the sort of the "private influence" people are voicing concerns about now, correct?

And the cost of those projects weren't even made public.

And it seems as if there were some similar criticisms tossed around with prior renovations going back to Jefferson.

Per TheHill:
The East Wing’s razing was met with criticism both by preservationists and by more than half of the American public. In death, the East Wing has come full circle, as it received criticism at the time of its birth during early 1800s.

President Thomas Jefferson, who served two terms 1801-09, first ordered the installation of colonnades on both the eastern and western sides of the White House, according to the White House Historical Association

Newspaper editorials slammed the additions, while the opposing Federalist Party suggested that the colonnades reflected “aristocratic tendencies” from Jefferson, the WHHA described.

But the colonnades remained until 1866 and were then replaced in 1902, under President Theodore Roosevelt’s overhaul of the White House, to allow for a main entrance for social events

Under FDR's 1942 renovations, controversy stemmed from it being completed with World War II unfolding in the background. Republicans called the construction wasteful and accused FDR of using the White House makeover to improve his image.



This all sounds like very familiar... like history repeating itself just a tad.
Yes, but is this an argument against preservation? If people have thought it was bad idea then and now, perhaps it is a bad idea?
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Trump dispenses with trials, orders military strike on alleged Venezuelan drug-trafficking boat (Now up to 2, 3, 4...)

In other completely normal news, apparently the Trump administration is doing what every single other administration has done and is requesting immunity for war crimes from the International Criminal Court.
Like most innocent people, Trump is not just requesting that, but threatening to sanction officials of the court that is not even investigating him.
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Are you interruptible like Jesus?

Are you interruptible?

As a dad of four boys, I have found that if I’m not interruptible, my boys will see me as someone they cannot approach at any time for any reason — and I want my boys to know they are safe to approach me with whatever is on their mind and heart.

One of the many things I love about Jesus in the Gospels is how interruptible He was (and is today).

Think about it. Nearly every major moment in Jesus’ ministry happened in the middle of an interruption. He was on His way somewhere, teaching something, or moving toward a purpose — and then someone stepped in, someone called out, someone reached out, someone broke through the crowd. And Jesus didn’t sigh, roll His eyes, or treat them like an inconvenience. He stopped. He listened. He engaged. He cared.

When the woman with the issue of blood reached out and touched His robe, Jesus halted everything and said, “Daughter … your faith has saved you. Go in peace” (Luke 8:48, CSB).

Blind Bartimaeus cried out from the roadside and the crowd tried to silence him, but Jesus stood still and said, “Call him” (Mark 10:49, CSB).

Parents brought their children to Jesus, and while the disciples rebuked them, Jesus corrected His own followers and said, “Let the little children come to me; don’t stop them” (Matthew 19:14, CSB).

When the paralytic’s friends dug through the roof, Jesus didn’t rebuke them for interrupting His teaching — He honored their faith and said, “Son, your sins are forgiven” (Mark 2:5, CSB).

Every interruption became an opportunity for Jesus to reveal the Father’s heart.

Continued below.

Ellen White on the mark of the beast for those that worship on Sunday

The writings of Ellen White, a prophet of the Seventh Day Adventist church, teach that those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast and will reject the seal of God. In other words, the vast majority of Christians are doomed for worshipping our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Here are her writings:

Reception of Mark of the Beast Future—The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. The mark of the beast is the papal sabbath, which has been accepted by the world in the place of the day of God’s appointment. Ev 234.1
No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast. Ev 234.2
With rapid steps we are approaching this period. When Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will the papal sabbath be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin.—Manuscript 51, 1899. Ev 235.1
When Seal of God Is Refused—If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the false sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls “My holy day,” you receive the mark of the beast. When does this take place? When you obey the decree that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God.—The Review and Herald, July 13, 1897. Ev 235.2
As a Result of Disregard of Light—God has given men the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them, as a test of their loyalty. Those who, after the light regarding God’s law comes to them, continue to disobey and exalt human laws above the law of God in the great crisis before us will receive the mark of the beast.—Letter 98, 1900. Ev 235.3
Caution in Presenting the Sunday Question—[We are] not to provoke those who have accepted this spurious sabbath, an institution of the Papacy in the place of God’s holy Sabbath. Their not having the Bible arguments in their favor makes them all the more angry and determined to supply the place of arguments that are wanting in the Word of God by the power of their might. The force of persecution follows the steps of the dragon. Therefore great care should be exercised to give no provocation.—Letter 55, 1886. Ev 235.4
Let the Truth Do the Cutting—Satan’s efforts against the advocates of the truth will wax more bitter and determined to the very close of time. As in Christ’s day the chief priests and rulers stirred up the people against Him, so today the religious leaders will excite bitterness and prejudice against the truth for this time. The people will be led to acts of violence and opposition which they would never have thought of had they not been imbued with the animosity of professed Christians against the truth. Ev 236.1
And what course shall the advocates of truth pursue? They have the unchangeable, eternal Word of God, and they should reveal the fact that they have the truth as it is in Jesus. Their words must not be rugged and sharp. In their presentation of truth they must manifest the love and meekness and gentleness of Christ. Let the truth do the cutting; the Word of God is as a sharp, two-edged sword, and will cut its way to the heart. Those who know that they have the truth should not, by the use of harsh and severe expressions, give Satan one chance to misinterpret their spirit.—The Review and Herald, October 14, 1902. Ev 236.2
A Call to Enlighten the Masses—I have been shown that Satan is stealing a march upon us. The law of God, through the agency of Satan, is to be made void. In our land of boasted freedom, religious liberty will come to an end. The contest will be decided over the Sabbath question, which will agitate the whole world. Ev 236.3
Our time for work is limited, and God calls us as ministers and people to be minutemen. Teachers as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves must come to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty. There are many who do not understand the prophecies relating to these days, and they must be enlightened.—Letter 1, 1875. Ev 237.1


Is Ellen White correct? Are those that worship our Lord on Sunday doomed to receive the mark of the beast?
As I read through this thread, I was struck by how much of the discussion centers on moralism—either as a means to salvation or as something that somehow affects salvation. One side argues that obedience to the Ten Commandments is not required for salvation; the other insists that it is. One side says the Sabbath is uniquely Jewish; the other says it was made for humanity and predates the Jews. Yet, in different ways, both sides seem focused on moral observance.

Before anyone takes offense, I want to acknowledge that many here clearly understand where salvation comes from and how it is received. My intent is not to dismiss sincere faith, but to gently question the framework through which we are approaching the issue.

Some time ago, I became curious about Ellen G. White after meeting an ardent Seventh-day Adventist gentleman who quoted her extensively. Wanting to understand her for myself, I read through much of her body of work—a series of volumes that begin with creation and extend to the second coming of Christ. Setting aside the question of her prophetic authority, it is clear that her understanding of salvation was not static. Over time, her emphasis shifted from a more New England–style moralism toward a clearer, grace-centered understanding of salvation.

Historically, the Seventh-day Adventist Church emerged from William Miller’s eschatology, rooted in a misreading of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation (cf. Matthew 24:36). Miller predicted Christ’s return in 1844, which sparked an urgent “get ready” movement. Understandably, this urgency led many to focus intensely on moral behavior. Yet such an approach placed an impossible burden on fallen humanity (Romans 3:10–12).

Around this time, Rachel Oakes Preston, a Seventh Day Baptist, introduced Sabbath observance to a group of Adventists who were already emphasizing the importance of the Ten Commandments. To their credit, and in pursuit of consistency, the congregation adopted Sabbath observance. This practice spread to other congregations, and in 1863 the Seventh-day Adventist Church was formally organized.

Given these origins, it is not difficult to see how a moralistic approach to salvation took root. Even after Christ did not return in 1844, the sense that His coming was imminent remained strong, continuing to foster moral urgency. In 1888, however, the message of righteousness by faith came with force, dividing the church theologically. By 1889, Ellen White’s emphasis had clearly shifted toward salvation by grace through faith, most notably expressed in Steps to Christ. The book was so strongly grace-centered that some even claimed it could not have been written by her.

All of this brings us to the question at hand. First, Scripture must be our final authority, interpreted through the illumination of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16–17; John 16:13). Second, moral behavior does not save anyone—whether that behavior consists of observing the Ten Commandments or simply striving to be a decent person. Even our best works, apart from Christ, amount to nothing of saving value (Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:8–9). Self-defined law-keeping is vanity. Christ alone is righteous, and if we are to be righteous, it must be His righteousness given to us as a gift (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

And God does more than simply declare us righteous. He adopts us as His children and makes us co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:15–17). If this astonishing gift does not awaken in us a desire to be like Him, then we have not truly grasped what has been given. Any moral behavior that has real spiritual value flows from a heart cleansed by Christ (Ezekiel 36:26; Matthew 7:17). Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not the means to it (John 15:5; Galatians 2:16).

For this reason, it is sobering to remember that there will be many who confidently point to their religious observances—Sabbath-keeping included—and yet hear the words of Christ: “Depart from Me; I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23).

In the end, it is not merely what we do, but why we do it (1 Corinthians 10:31). None of us is qualified to take Christ’s place on the judgment seat (Romans 14:4, 10–12). Our proper posture is humility before Him. The Sabbath should not be the central issue; knowing Christ should be (John 17:3).
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Is there another '1st World' country, where our darkskin-Black friends get arrested for having mental health crises?

...stalking and forcing himself into someone's home. ...
He had no criminal history, never even a traffic ticket and especially never any Acts like this, sooo... You listed elements of his mental health crisis!
Was that a big huge detail you deliberately ignored?

If he was Caucasian, would you still have processed it in that same way you described?
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Nicaragua bans tourists from bringing Bibles into the country

Tourists entering Nicaragua are no longer allowed to carry Bibles. The restriction, which also applies to other printed materials and electronic equipment, is part of a growing list of prohibited items at the border and comes amid tightening limits on civil liberties and an ongoing crackdown on Christians.

Notices displayed at Tica Bus terminals in Costa Rica list Bibles, newspapers, magazines, books, drones and cameras among banned items alongside sharp objects and perishable food, according to the U.K.-based group Christian Solidarity Worldwide.

A representative from the regional transport company Tica Bus in El Salvador confirmed that passengers traveling to Managua are not permitted to bring “Bibles, newspapers, magazines, books of any kind, drones and cameras,” CSW said.

Continued below.

Trump admin blocks $584 million to UCLA over antisemitism, civil rights allegations

Times Investigation: Ex-Trump DOJ lawyers say ‘fraudulent’ UC antisemitism probes led them to quit


  • Nine former DOJ attorneys investigating UC antisemitism told The Times they felt pressured to conclude that campuses had violated the civil rights of Jewish students and staff.
  • The attorneys resigned during the course of their UC assignments, some concerned that they were being asked to violate ethical standards.
Nine former Department of Justice attorneys assigned to investigate alleged antisemitism at the University of California described chaotic and rushed directives from the Trump administration and told The Times they felt pressured to conclude that campuses had violated the civil rights of Jewish students and staff.

In interviews over several weeks, the career attorneys — who together served dozens of years — said they were given the instructions at the onset of the investigations. All nine attorneys resigned during the course of their UC assignments, some concerned that they were being asked to violate ethical standards.

“Initially we were told we only had 30 days to come up with a reason to be ready to sue UC,” said Ejaz Baluch, a former senior trial attorney who was assigned to investigate whether Jewish UCLA faculty and staff faced discrimination on campus that the university did not properly address. “It shows just how unserious this exercise was. It was not about trying to find out what really happened.”

“We did have enough information from our investigation to warrant suing UCLA.” But Baluch said, “We believed that such a lawsuit had significant weaknesses.”

“To me, it’s even clearer now that it became a fraudulent and sham investigation,” another lawyer said.

Four attorneys said they were particularly troubled by two matters. First, they were asked to write up a “j-memo” — a justification memorandum — that explained why UC should face a lawsuit “before we even knew the facts,” one attorney said.

“Then there was the PR campaign,” the attorney said, referring to announcements beginning with a Feb. 28, 2025, press release saying investigators would be visiting UCLA, UC Berkeley, USC and seven other universities nationwide because the campuses “have experienced antisemitic incidents since October 2023.”

“Never before in my time across multiple presidential administrations did we send out press releases essentially saying workplaces or colleges were guilty of discrimination before finding out if they really were,” said one attorney, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation.

The government has not sued UC.

But in August, the DOJ demanded that the university pay a $1.2-billion fine and agree to sweeping, conservative-leaning campus policy changes to settle federal antisemitism accusations. In exchange, the Trump administration would restore $584 million in frozen grant funding. At the time, Gov. Gavin Newsom called the proposal “extortion.”
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