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Concerns About the Foundations of the Gentile Christian Movement in Acts 15

12/12/25

Concerns About the Foundations of the Gentile Christian Movement in Acts 15

Premise #1:


True Jews will hear and obey the words of Yeshua. See Mt 12:50: “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” How can you get any closer than that? The Apostle John is also an excellent example of a believing Jew. His epistles closely parallel the words of our Savior in every aspect. 1 John 1:3 is a great example: “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you…” The overall context and focus of John’s epistles are about hearing and obeying the Law of Love that Yeshua has given us.



Premise #2:

The foundation of the Gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 15 is NOT on solid ground. For proper understanding, see Mt. 7:24: “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock.” Yeshua is not quoted at all in Acts 15. Neither by Peter, James, Paul, Barnabas, Judas (Barsabas) or Silas. The stated focus is on the Holy Ghost regarding the legitimacy and authority for the proposed decision from the Jerusalem Council that was to be sent to the Gentile church in Antioch. (See Acts 15:28).



True Mission of the Holy Ghost:

The problem here is this contradicts the direction, per Yeshua, regarding the mission of the Holy Ghost, as stated in John 14:26: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said unto you.” Yeshua would never have supported the proposed letter to the Church at Antioch, especially what was stated in Acts 15:24. The originators of this statement, i.e., “…certain (men) which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment”, combined two different subjects which Yeshua clearly differentiated in John 7:22, saying that circumcision was “of the fathers”, and not directly from Moses. The subject of circumcision was minimized by Yeshua and John 7:22-23 was his only direct mention of it, and the intent of his comments were to resolve accusations towards him about not keeping the Sabbath. By his example, the Jerusalem council should have avoided the subject, instead it became a huge point of discussion then and later in Paul’s writings. Regarding keeping the Torah, Yeshua’s stand is extremely clear on the eternal validity of the Torah, per his words in Matthew 5:17-18.



Background—Outpouring of the Holy Ghost to the House of Cornelius:

It would also be appropriate to mention the events in Acts 10, and especially regarding the outpouring of the Holy Ghost. As we know, Peter was sent to the house of Cornelius with God working in two directions here to bring this important message to the Gentiles to preach to them the good news about Yeshua the Messiah. In verse 44, the outpouring of the Holy Ghost was indisputable, and clearly from the heart of Yeshua to this Gentile household. We need to keep in mind however, regarding the original prophecy about speaking in tongues, per Isaiah 28:11: “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people…” points to Yeshua as the sure foundation and precious cornerstone in verse 16. But these verses are accompanied by several adjacent verses, warning about a lack of correct hearing or a lack of hearing altogether. Verse 12 says: …”This is the rest, wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing; yet they would not hear.” The bottom line is that the outpouring of the Holy Ghost in the book of Acts is framed on every side per Isaiah 28 with warnings about correct hearing of the word of God, i.e., words of Yeshua. (See Hebrews 1:1-2 if any questions). Per Acts 10, Yeshua’s message clearly applies to everyone who would hear his words, Jew or Gentile, but fully understanding that not all persons would hear and receive his words. His heart of compassion was clearly extended to the Gentiles via Peter’s visit to the house of Cornelius.



Background—Questions About the Authority / Structure of the Jerusalem Council:

First, Yeshua was not supportive at all of church organizational structures or any structures that would replace his direct authority or that of his heavenly Father, and for good reasons. If you read Matthew 23:8-10, he says: “But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and ye are all brethren.” James seems to end up with the leadership role by the conclusion of Acts 15, and he was probably trying his best under the circumstances, but this is a great example again of the very weak foundation that was created at the origins of the Gentile Church in several areas. Just for thinking purposes, what if the at the beginning of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:2, when the questions arose from the men that came down from Judea that needed to be answered, the Apostles and Elders would have responded as follows: “These are important questions, and we need to understand exactly how Yeshua would have responded.” “Give us a few days, and we will go into fasting and prayer, plus ask the Holy Ghost to help us remember accurately the words He had spoken while he was yet with us.” Do we realize the wonderful blessings, and wise decisions that would have followed?



Yeshua’s statements on fulfilling the Law:

Yeshua’s answer to the Gentile believers would most likely have stated “how” to fulfill the Law as follows, (for example): When asked this question, i.e., which is the greatest commandment in the Law by a lawyer in Mt. 22:37-40, Yeshua’s response was: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind….this is the first and great commandment.” “The second is like unto it: Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself…on these two commandments hang (suspend) all the law and prophets.” The likely response from the Apostle John, especially after the “period of darkness” mentioned in 1 John 2:8-10, would also have been to state the Law of Love that Yeshua had given unto us. Yeshua clearly states in Matthew 5:17-18 that he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill the law. When studied at a deeper level, Yeshua later clearly makes the point that if we hear and obey his words, we can have that love in our hearts that he mentions in John 14, 15 & 16 and we can fulfill the Torah.



Paul’s Statements on fulfilling the Law:

In Paul’s gospel to the Gentiles, fulfillment of the Law was not prioritized or emphasized at all, as we know. Paul only quotes Yeshua once in all of his epistles. (See 1 Cor 11:24-25). Agreeably, Paul mentions that love is the fulfillment of the law in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:8-10. These statements are absolutely correct, and they coincide with Yeshua’s words even if Paul never quoted Yeshua as the source. To caution, however, Paul’s contempt and disregard for God’s moral law is well documented in his writings. For example, in Romans 7:3-4, he uses a figurative example of the Law of Adultery, equating Christ to “the deceased husband”, to conclude that: “…ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ.” This directly conflicts with the words of Yeshua in Matthew 5:27-28 where in no case does he indicate that the Law of Adultery or any of God’s moral law will ever become null and void.



The Apostle John Links True Love and True Holiness:

This becomes an important consideration when studying John’s epistles where he links true love and true holiness together. The two are intertwined per his statements, and you cannot have one without the other. Remember that John states in 1 John 3:4 that sin is a transgression of the Law, and this applies to everyone in exactly the same way. Remember also that Yeshua warns in Mt. 5:19 that: “Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven…” John’s epistles proclaim a high standard of holiness and sanctification and indicates in 1 John 3:6 that we can live a life above sin if we stay close to Yeshua and diligently heed his words.



Peter Missteps in Acts 15
:

Peter also misses the mark and direction that Yeshua had previously provided when he states in Acts 15:10-11: “Why tempt ye God, and put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor us were able to bear?? He states further in verse 11 that: “We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved.” This conflicts with the words of Yeshua in at least four counts: 1) In Matthew 11:28-30 he said that his yoke was easy, and burden was light. 2) Yeshua repeats clearly in multiple passages that true believers in Him would hear and obey his words. 3) The Apostle John, in his epistles, discusses the wonderful joy and blessings that accompany true faith and obedience to the words of Yeshua. (Not a hardship). 4) Yeshua never distances himself from the Old Testament scriptures. His response to the lawyer regarding the greatest commandment of the Law in Matthew 22:36-40, was a quote from Leviticus 19:18, and Deuteronomy 6:5. See also Psalms 119 in its entirety.



Beginning of Paul’s Gospel:

Unfortunately, Paul takes Peter’s words here to support his current and proposed theology and runs full speed ahead with his gospel of grace (without works or any reference to obedience), and with almost complete contempt for the Law and lack of reference to the words of Yeshua. Following Acts 15, we see the rise of Paul and an almost complete minimization of Peter.



Paul’s Position of Idolatry:

There is also a serious concern to consider now and in the immediate future due to Paul’s weak stand on idolatry. In 1Cor 8:4-8 Paul clearly states that eating meat offered to idols was only a matter of conscience and would become a problem only if it offended a weaker brother’s conscience. This is in direct conflict to the first commandment in the Law, and Yeshua had to step in twice in Revelation 2:14 and 2:20 to address this issue. This is also in direct conflict with the 1st of the four precepts that were correctly stated by James in Acts 15:29: “That ye abstain from meats offered to idols.”



Immediate Consequences of the Acts 15 Decisions:

We can observe the results of the lack of a solid foundation and adherence to the words of Yeshua in Acts 15 at that important moment in history, by looking at verses 39 & 40 which describes the falling out between Paul and Barnabas over John Mark: “Paul thought it not good to take him with them, who departed from them at Pamphylia, and the contention was so sharp between them that they departed asunder one from the other, and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed for Cyprus.” “And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.” Would this have happened if close adherence and respect was kept towards the words of Yeshua?




Acts 15—Concluding Verses (39-40):


“Being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God”, regretfully, is an outrageous statement, implying back patting by the “brethren” and basically condoning a very serious sin, per Yeshua. If you read Mt. 5:23-25, Yeshua placed a high priority on getting things straightened up between brethren and resolved as quickly as possible. In this case the serious sin was not necessarily the falling out between Paul and Barnabas, but the fact that amends were not made quickly, and they went separate ways. We have no record that this quarrel and contention was immediately resolved.


The word Grace:


The word “grace” is unfortunately used here foundationally also to imply that this disagreement between Paul and Barnabas now and in the future falls into a dispensational category of “unmerited favor” that sort of overlooks sins and shortcomings as “all forgiven” now that we are under this “dispensation of grace.” Yeshua is clear on this also and indicates in Mt. 6:15 that our forgiveness before God is conditional on our forgiveness to others. The word “grace” was never spoken or quoted by Yeshua, other than indirectly by way of revelation to Paul in 2 Cor 12:9, even though it became a cornerstone of Paul’s teachings and subsequent Gospel to the Gentiles.



Finally, where do we go from here?

  • Pay extremely close attention to the words of Yeshua, now and going forward. They are true and precious and worth more than all the riches in this world. Read Matthew 17:5 and Hebrews 1:1-2 as key scriptures in this regard.
  • Minimize Bible commentators, other than we need to pay attention to accurate language translations from the original Greek and Hebrew, etc.
  • Pay diligent attention to John’s epistles, as they have an obvious message of the hour for Jewish believers.
  • Pay diligent attention also to Yeshua’s message to the church of Philadelphia, per Rev 3:7-13.
  • Most important, remember that if we want to fulfill the Law it must start with a sincere love for our Savior, love for others, and love for the precious words and promises that he has given to us.
Thank you.
The first thing that struck me is that premise two seems to be the same as premise one. Just said in a different way. Jesus is referring to the Jews doing the Will of His Father.

He is directing them to the God of their forefathers who they know are part of the covenant Christ the Messiah was to come. Jews mostly relate to this view of Christ in the fullfillment of Gods promise. So its taylored to them specifically.

Whereas though Jesus does not mention the Father He is the way to the Father for the Gentiles. They don't relate this relationship the same as the Jews. They don't have that heritage. They are made inclusive by Christ. So it makes sense that the focus is on Christ. Following His teachings as they are taylored to the Gentiles.

Paul elaborates on this for the Gentiles when he says that he is making way for the Gentiles as a pure sacrifice to God in Christ. He is linking it back to the Jewish tradition and covenant.

But I think its the same thing. Just framed differently for the Gentiles. As Christ was the only way to God and was God made flesh as John mentions. Then following Christs teachings and way is doing the will of the Father.

Maybe this is because for the Gentiles they were of the world, they came from a world of Hellinistic thought and it was not just about Gods Will and the Law. But wise council, a rationale that following Christ was wise in building Gods Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Gentiles tend to need some logical reason lol. The Jews respect their tradition and relate more to God the Father.





True Jews will hear and obey the words of Yeshua. See Mt 12:50: “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” How can you get any closer than that? The Apostle John is also an excellent example of a believing Jew. His epistles closely parallel the words of our Savior in every aspect. 1 John 1:3 is a great example: “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you…” The overall context and focus of John’s epistles are about hearing and obeying the Law of Love that Yeshua has given us.



Premise #2:

The foundation of the Gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 15 is NOT on solid ground. For proper understanding, see Mt. 7:24: “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock.” Yeshua is not quoted at all in Acts 15. Neither by Peter, James, Paul, Barnabas, Judas (Barsabas) or Silas. The stated focus is on the Holy Ghost regarding the legitimacy and authority for the proposed decision from the Jerusalem Council that was to be sent to the Gentile church in Antioch. (See Acts 15:28).
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The rise of menace as a mainstream political tool

President Donald Trump’s heated rhetoric against his perceived political enemies has resulted in a blizzard of threats against at least 22 officials on both sides of the aisle in recent weeks, according to an NBC News tally.
The man is toxic for America. We would not tolerate his behavior in a child. And yet his spell continues. Fear is his primary weapon. Everyone is afraid of his wrath and revenge. “Yes, Sir…you are the greatest, Sir. Anything you say, Sir. I am loyal, Sir.”
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Why Is It So Hard for Christians to Talk About Justice and Greed?

A teaching from an institution that I’ve come to appreciate:

2820 By a discernment according to the Spirit, Christians have to distinguish between the growth
of the Reign of God and the progress of the culture and society in which they are involved. This
distinction is not a separation. Man's vocation to eternal life does not suppress, but actually
reinforces, his duty to put into action in this world the energies and means received from the
Creator to serve justice and peace.


Another, from an insitution member:

Justice is trampled underfoot by weakness, cowardice and fear of the diktat of the ruling mindset. Evil draws its power from indecision and concern for what other people think.

--Joseph Ratzinger
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Although I don't believe this apparently scientists believe life formed on its own

This is a false equivelance. Your assuming its the exact same as our state now. It will not be. If it was then we will still be in a fallen state. The fact that we never get sick, suffer or die is fact its not the same. So stop making false comparisons.

But this is not the only way in which early Christians understood the Mind and Body divide. They clearly understood that this physical world was different to the spirit. That the physical world was different to their spiritual knowledge and selves.
So where does Christianity tell us that we are going to have a conscious mind without any kind of a body when we die?
But the biblical account demands belief in supernatural ideas. This is when the material atheists or anyone who uses science to beat down God or the bibles stories as unreal and make believe. Theres no difference.

Its still a material paradigm claiming an epistemic and ontological truth by demanding we show evidence. Otherwise its all rubbish. That is the very aim of skeptics when they come onto Christian forums lol. To make the delusion believers enlightened so they can get over their delusion of God and creationism lol.
That's what happens when you make testible statements about objective reality. Have you ever wondered why the conversations in Creationism forums always line up the same way? Biblical Christians on one side and everybody else on the other? Atheists, sure, but also mainline Protestants,Tradiitonal Christians, and all other theists together on the other side? Why do you think all those believers are siding with atheists to "beat down God?"

The same thing has happened in this thread. I wonder why?

But its not a misrepresentation of how some use science and naturalism to defeat those who believe in Gods creation. I guarentee skeptics are coming to show how the science is superior and shows that God is not needed for creating life. Thats the who idea on threads like this lol.

Its philosophical in nature and not a misrepresentation. It is exactly highlighting that when it comes down to argueing the case its a matter of belief and not science.

If you have no idea about what I am talking about then I suggest you do some research because this is actually fairly well known within the philosophy of science. Ever heard of Kuhn. Surely you must have.

Naturalism and Science

Thomas Kuhn's concept of paradigms, introduced in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, revolutionized the philosophy of science by proposing that scientific progress isn't linear but occurs through revolutionary "paradigm shifts," where an established worldview (paradigm) is replaced by a new one, challenging the idea of pure objectivity and highlighting the community's role in defining scientific truth.

Of course I've read Kuhn. He is controversial amongst philosophers of science. I didn't find him convincing;
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Your not understanding. If there was such a paper that proposed say that ancient Egyptians gained knowledge of chemistry and physics through their belief and conscious experiences. It would not get past the front door in the first place. You will have to go to alternative journals within philosophy or metaphysics to get such an idea published.
First we would have to determine if the egyptians gained any knowledge of chemistry and physics through their belief and conscious experience, how do you propose to do that? Who would we ask?
We are talking about two different things. One is the science in chemistry and physics for example. That can be tested and hypothesised within a certain method and paradigm. The quantifying sciences.

But apart from the tests and articles which I think were in journals already on the casting of stones and the potential energy in the pyramids this is ongoing. I think this is enough in the meantime to declare its not a conspiracy or psuedoscience.

If you see a melted of softened stone or one thats vitrified that your left with whether it was naturally formed or man made. When you see vitrified stones in caves or where only the works are vitrified and the surrounding natural stones are not you can begin to make some findings.
Perhaps it was left by the guy that was there yesterday or in 1934? This is why context matters for archeology.
Its all the lines of evidence that are mounted together and the common practices and examples that build the case. By looking at all this we can make some conclusion. When tests then back this up with peered revied or not they cannot be dismissed.
This I don't agree with. Before we make a holisitic judgement on the case, every supporting part needs to stand on its own.
Therefore you already have evidence you can deal with and offer your explanation as to why this is not human made changes to stone.

Already done this and it was ignored. If people cannot first even acknowledge the images and that they need to be examined and determined then its not going to work.
The images are there, but what they show is what the investigation is needed for.
First acknowledge that the examples at least look vitrified and we need to look further.
Where have I said that they shouldn't look into it?
Just like the many machine cuts that were exampled and ignored.
They didn't even look like machine cuts to me, what do you want me to do?
Just admit they look like machine cuts and not like the orthodox method could produce them.
But to me they are not clearly made by some thing else than abrasive sawing.
Then we can take the next step to see if this is the case. But if the obvious observations are dinissed in the first place then how can we even find that out.
No one is stopping them from keep investigating and building their case.
Yes and yet some have declared that it was the result of natural occurrances without evidence. Thats the double standard.
That was not me.
I am quite open to any investigation. But you cannot do that if the examples are either fobbed off as naturalistic or not even acknowledged in the first place.
They might be naturalistic.
Actually it was not just you which shows how this is the standard orthodoxy and the first explanation always assumed by the material science worldview. Has to have a naturalistic explanation and anything else is unreal or deemed less credible.

In fact the naturalistic explanation was forced. That I was a fool for even suggestion something other than the naturalistic explanation. Thats dogma not science.
Take it up with them.
Nah I am happy with the work so far. It doesn't need to be peered reviwed to be good science. In fact its a cop out to keep fobbing it off as not meeting some gatekeepers criteria.
Ok, but you'll still get the same pushback.
They already have written the analysis for the tests. Do you think they do tests and make observations an dthen not write anything about this lol.

It is a problem if we both take the position of just fobbing off what each other says without any explanation. Thats easy. Just say the opposite and give no reason. The discussion would breakdown in minutes and be going nowhere lol.
Do you feel like you are actually discussing others questions, instead of just restating your position?
The problem like I said is that this is all fairly knew. For example the casting of stones was hyothesised a few decades ago but it was then a fringe idea and dismissed. It took one scientists to relook in recent years to realised that no one had actually checked the work. When he did he found it had some merit.

The whole subject of alternative knowledge and tech had been rejected and pushed to the sides. Its only been with modern tech and more independent archeologists and researchers in the field now discovering obvious evidence that was ignored for decades.
I don't feel that it is obvious evidence.
So its still a case of pushing against the mainstream to even get this stuff acknowledged let alone be accepted in mainstream journals lol. In the meantime the best e=we have is the research, analysis and tests I have been presenting which is not yet up to the stage of being accepted. But if you keep rejecting it because it is yet to get to that stage then how can it ever get to that stage lol.

This is all there is and if you reject it theres nothing else. Not because there is no evidence but because there has been a bias about even accepting it in the first place. Which is the point of this thread ironically.

So you will accept say the testimony of the ancients themselves. When they tell you that they did not make these works and that they were made by people from the gods or by some other peoples with great knowledge like the gods.
No ancients are alive, what are you talking about.
Will you accept this evidence as just as relevant as the material sciences.
It is evidence (again what are we talking about here?) about their thinking about what happened before.
Or do you treat this with less credibility to begin with. See to the ancients they would regard this experiential and lived reality over westernised material sciences as the source of true knowledge and reality.
How would you know if they weigh "experiential and lived reality over westernised material sciences"?
Like Christians. When the westernised material science or naturalistic paradigm claims there is no evidence for God or spirituality they are deying the testimony of Christ, the diciples and all those Christians who pass this knowledge down. They say that material sciences is the illusion and that God is the truth and reality.

Can you see the giant difference in the worldview outlook as to what is classed as real knowledge and the source of real knowledge.

Yes but this tells us nothing about what caused it or how the knowledge that created that physical impact was gained. Methologic al naturalism just describes what is happening. It offers no explanation of how or what the nature of that activity represents.
So gather up some that claim that they have knowledge gained from some transcendental means, and see if they can manipulate reality with it?
Like I said you could be describing something you have been programmed to percieve and describe. Just like a flea on an elephant may be describing what he thinks is the world and reality. Not knowing that there is a far greater reality beyond the elephant he is riding.

What is an electron. How is describing an electron tell us anything about whether nature or reliaty is fundementally physical or not. Or whether the ancients could not have understood the fundementals of electrons through their conscious experiences.

If Bohr is right and the electron displays rudimentary forms of consciousness. Then maybe this is the backdoor to a greater and deeper knowledge that the ancients discovered. You don't know and cannot dispute it because science cannot measure this. Its beyond science.

Already done and I linked this for you.
Do you mean the Broborg article (that is the only peer-reviewed one regarding vitrification IIRC)? That is not ancient technology or lost knowledge, no natural catastrophe wiped out iron-age scandinavians or scots.
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Brown University shooting: 2 students killed, 9 injured, suspect at large

A gunman who opened fire on students at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, killing two and injuring nine others during a final exam review, remained at large late Saturday as hundreds of officers searched for him. Police said the suspect fled on foot.

The attack began around 4:05 p.m. EST inside a first-floor classroom during a final exam review for a large economics course, according to The New York Times. Law enforcement described the suspect as a man dressed in dark clothing, possibly in his 30s, last seen leaving the area without his face visible on security footage.

Authorities released video footage showing the man leaving the engineering building, but said his face was not clearly captured.

Investigators asked anyone who might recognize his gait or outfit to come forward.

Continued below.
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Vatican to unveil Nativity scene, light up Christmas tree in St. Peter’s Square on Dec. 15

The Governorate of Vatican City State has announced the origins of the fir tree and Nativity scenes that will adorn St. Peter’s Square and the Paul VI Audience Hall this Christmas as well as those who prepared the tree’s decorations.

The decorations in St. Peter’s Square will once again have an Italian touch.

The chosen tree, an imposing 80-foot Norway spruce, comes from the town of Val d’Ultimo in Ultental, one of the most picturesque and lesser-known valleys of South Tyrol in the Alto Adige region of Italy. Along with the large tree, 40 smaller trees destined for Vatican offices and buildings will arrive soon.

In a novel initiative to ensure environmental sustainability and respect for nature, after Christmas, the main fir tree will be used to produce essential oils — a process that will be handled by the Austrian company Wilder Naturprodukte — and the rest of the wood will be donated to a charitable organization.

Continued below.

Jesus Christ and Santa Claus

"The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in the village of Patara in Asia Minor. At the time the area was Greek and is now on the southern coast of Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships."

Who is St. Nicholas? - St. Nicholas Center
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'Scourge of antisemitism:' Australian bishops call for prayer after 12 killed in Bondi Beach terrorist attack

Catholic leaders in Australia have responded with prayer and condemnation of antisemitism following what police described as a terrorist attack on a Hanukkah celebration at Sydney’s Bondi Beach on Sunday that left 12 people dead and 29 others injured.

Archbishop Anthony Fisher of Sydney called for prayer and the intercession of the Virgin Mary in the immediate aftermath of the Dec. 14 shooting, which authorities said included one of the alleged gunmen among the dead.

“As we follow the horrific news coming from this evening’s shooting at Bondi Beach, let us pray for those who have been killed or injured,” Fisher said in a statement released shortly after the attack. “May Our Lady, Queen of Peace, intercede for all affected, and for our beloved city at this time.”

The archbishop also offered prayers for the “many who were forced to run for their lives” and for emergency service workers responding at the scene.

Continued below.

Young earth vs Old earth?

How you arrived at an age of 5,786 is of interest to me, as well as the OP, and perhaps a few other.
Would you mind sharing the mathematical equation (figures, or numbers, and calculations) with us?

I'm not seeing any figures applied to Genesis 1:1, 2, and from Genesis 1:3-2:4, the days are longer that a regular day.
However, from day 7 until now, we calculate a period of about 5,820 years.

That would mean the heavens and the earth are far much older than 5,820 years, since they existed before Genesis 1:3, and the period of time it took for God to complete his work, according to Genesis 2:4, is never given.

I googled "What is the current year on the Jewish calendar. There ae several sites which have the number. The process Judaism uses is to start with creation beginning the first year. Then they use the genealogies until you have an historical figure which can be tied to an historical event such as the destruction of the Temple. Then they use the secular history from that year on.

I'm willing to accept their results because they take Genesis as fact and do not believe in gaps. As I said I would not be dogmatic about the precision of 5,786. Personally I believe their methods are correct, but for discussion purposes 6,000 is acceptable. When you use numbers like 5,786, people can ask how do you know it's not 5,787 etc.? So using 6,000 as a round number is better.

Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement. Hebrew narratives often begin with a summary of the entire event before giving any details (Genesis 28:10). The first "work" is Genesis 1:2 which can be placed on the first day IMO. This implies darkness was created on the first day (looking at Isaiah 45:7). I believe God omits the creation of darkness to give emphasis on light. Science says "darkness" is real, dark energy and dark matter. Fine. Since darkness is connected to evil, knowledge of darkness is something man was not to have. Isaiah 45:7 is factual, but the complexity of the issues it raises are not appropriate for Genesis.

If you wanted to arrange the events of Genesis 1 in chronological order, the first would be 1:26 where God, Father, Son, Spirit self-identify when explaining their plan on how man will be made. This is placed on the sixth day, but obviously it had to be in the mind of God before starting. There is an objective reality to this as well. Man will have certain authorities in creation. Since man will be created last, everything before must be made with such that man will be able to exercise the authority planned.
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Ilhan Omar blasted over resurfaced comments on Somali influence in the US as Elon Musk suggests she committed treason

I wouldn't call the claims about Project 2025 a "conspiracy" exactly, but a bunch of people definitely did exaggerate what it said or just plain made claims that weren't even true when trying to attack Trump with it. One can find more commonality between Trump's policies and Project 2025 when one is comparing the actual content of Project 2025 rather than the exaggerations.

However, the idea that Project 2025 (actual Project 2025 or exaggerated version) was some kind of secret blueprint for Trump has problems with it. Project 2025 was a manifesto by a Republican-aligned group (the Heritage Foundation) and Trump, guess what, is a Republican. One can find a bunch of commonality between the Green Party platform and stuff Biden did, it doesn't mean Biden was following the ideas of the Green Party, it just means that because they're both liberals you're going to find some crossover.

As is well explained here (this was from much earlier this year, but the general points still hold up), footnotes omitted:

...many point out that Project 2025 suggested things that President de facto Trump later commanded through executive order—often using language that closely echoes language from Project 2025—so we are already living in a Project 2025 regime (and it sucks!). Hence Politico’s “37 ways Project 2025 has shown up in Trump’s executive orders.” These articles are used to vindicate last year’s conspiracy theory that, despite Donald Trump’s repeated repudiation of Project 2025, Project 2025 was nevertheless the secret blueprint of his administration. (I wrote about these and other P2025-related conspiracy theories last year.) Yet the presumption of all these articles is that, if Project 2025 suggested doing something and Trump subsequently did it, Project 2025 must be where the idea originated. That’s not remotely the case.

In fact, for some ideas, it’s exactly the opposite: the first Trump Administration had an idea, then Project 2025 adopted it into their framework! Even though Trump later did these things, he obviously didn’t get the idea from Project 2025. In most cases (like DEI rollbacks), he actively ran on these ideas, and the American people voted for it.

For many ideas, Trump and Project 2025 were both drawing on long-standing conservative commitments. For example, it is true, as Politico alleges in a scandalized tone, that Project 2025 recommended Trump impose the Mexico City Policy to block U.S. subsidies for international abortion providers… and Trump did! However, it’s perfectly obvious Trump didn’t do it because Project 2025 suggested it; he also imposed the Mexico City Policy at the start of his first term… and so has every other incoming Republican president since Ronald Reagan. This is just something Republican presidents do. Treating this as proof that Donald Trump is secretly following Project 2025 is just as silly as treating it as proof that George H.W. Bush was secretly following Project 2025 more than thirty years before Project 2025 was written!

This gives us a fairly simple heuristic you can use to see whether it’s even plausible that Trump got one of his ideas from Project 2025:

  1. Did he do it in his last term, before Project 2025 existed? If yes, then it obviously didn’t come from Project 2025.
  2. Did he actively campaign on it in 2024, the same campaign where he repudiated Project 2025? If yes, then it obviously wasn’t a secret he foisted on an unsuspecting public, and he probably didn’t get the idea from Project 2025 at all!
When you go through the 37 executive orders Politico cites as “evidence” that Trump was lying on the campaign trail, this simple heuristic eliminates 35 of them.

What’s left? What Trump policy proposals may have actually originated from Project 2025? Spicy stuff, believe you me:

  • Closing the OFCCP (Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs)
    • I doubt President Trump knew then, nor knows now, what OFCCP is. It’s an anti-discrimination enforcement office, so it was in trouble no matter what, but it’s plausible that the idea to close it came from P2025.
  • Shifting FEMA burdens to the states, with FEMA playing only a support role
    • Note that Trump already hated FEMA, and it’s easy to imagine Trump asking the office, “Hey, how can I crush FEMA under my heel,” and a P2025 staffer saying, “You know, I wrote down some ideas about that.”
I did always say that, since Project 2025 is very much a part of the (very small) conservative policy wonk world, it was inevitable that Project 2025 would have some influence in the Trump White House, as one faction among many. These data points seem to bear that out.


The Democratic process (or, at least, the primary process) was bypassed to promote Harris. It might have been unavoidable to not bypass at that point (there was absolutely no time to do primaries), but it was still bypassed.

I do think that, with the hand the Democrats were dealt with Biden dropping out, quickly rallying around Harris was the decision that made the most sense. There was no time for a primary, they didn't want the convention to get taken over by arguments over who the delegates should vote for (especially because the convention wasn't planned to be a contested convention), and it made the most sense to rally around the person who was the Vice President. In hindsight we can see that didn't work out, so maybe it would've been better to do it differently... but with the information available at the time, and the situation they were in, I think quickly rallying around Harris was the best decision.


Of course, while I said "it might have been unavoidable to not bypass at that point" we should put emphasis on the words "at that point". Because if Biden hadn't run for re-election, they could've had a real primary (they technically had a primary but as is normal for a sitting President, Biden was so strongly favored they might as well not have). I can definitely see frustration for being told endlessly "Biden's actually totally fine, ignore all claims that he isn't! No need for any real primary!" only to then later on be told "okay, Biden actually isn't in that great of a shape, but there's no time for a primary now, so it's Harris whether you like it or not."

I agree it was no secret. It wasn't even a new publication. It was published for all to read but half the people who worked on it are or were in his administration.

I don't think Trump knows a fraction of what is even in it, however the people in his administration have their own agenda and are manipulating him. It's been reported he was shown footage of the George Floyd protests to get the national guard in Portland. He's actually made comments people can't shop because of violence there that isn't actually taking place.


From 2024. Ties to his campaign.


Factcheck.org P2025 series.


As far as the election, there is an argument to be made that Biden shouldn't have ran, but he was pushed out. Pelosi and others didn't want Harris and helped apply pressure with donors. I personally don't think he should have stepped down, but with his later cancer diagnosis maybe it was for the best.

None of the other candidates who ran were serious. None of them were on ballots in all 50 states. Most who ran were spoilers to dilute the dem vote.

The delegates didn't have to vote for Harris, and not all did, but no other candidate would have stood a chance. They didn't have name recognition in all 50 states. The money raised by the Biden campaign couldn't go to anyone but Harris. The deadlines in most of the states had passed. No one else would have been able to get on the ballot, and I can promise GOP ran states were not going to extend any grace. There was no way to fundraise, do voter outreach and all that needs to be done.

I believe that all things work together for good tho.

More than ever I'm motivated to get rid of citizens united. The way Biden was treated made me FURIOUS. Top dollar donors shouldn't have so much influence so that a handful of donors can hold more influence than the entire dem base. Harris proved that a campaign doesn’t need them.

If Trump hadn't won, the foreign influence from Russia and other places wouldn't have been exposed. Many weaknesses in our system of governance wouldn't have been exposed. We have a lot of norms and gentlemen's agreements that aren't actually enshrined in laws that a person who has no respect for our institutions are willing to gleefully trample. Hopefully, once dems get power again, some of those loopholes get closed. I also hope there is a public effort to recognize influence campaigns, ai etc.

Also, the hypocrisy of the Church has been exposed. The next time someone says so and so can't hold a position because they are divorced, an adulterer, a criminal, a known liar, uses profanity or vulgar language, doesn't attend church regularly, all we have to do is point to evangelical support of Trump who have said the end justifies the means.

We've learned the GOP doesnt really care about states rights or even the rights of citizens. We've learned that the next dem president can fire whomever he wants and do whatever he wants if it's a goal their base supports and even if they don't. He just has to move quickly enough so that by the time the courts catch up, whats broken cannot be repaired and there is no legal remedy to those who were harmed. He can take money from any institution that doesnt line up with his agenda. Occupy any state he wants. Withhold money from any state that defies them. Lax gun laws? It would be a shame to have something happen to that infrastructure funding.

The dem base has been a bit slow. They still think we have a rulebook. Hopefully dem leadership has learned a different lesson.
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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

When it reads Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This is a solid declaration that those who Christ is lifted up in behalf of, as a consequence they will be made believers and converted to Him ! Its a declaration of His Saving Death! 9
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The Daniel 9 prophecy (no 7-year tribulation) - study by Palehorse

....Jesus’ baptism​

The next 62 weeks represent the period of time between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The end of the 69th week (seven weeks for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and 62 after) brings us to A.D. 27. At this point, Daniel said the Messiah would come (Daniel 9:25).

Naturally, the Messiah was on the tongue of every Jew who hoped He would come and save them from their oppressors. Throughout the Old Testament Scriptures,5 God had indeed promised a Messiah, and Daniel 9 reiterates that promise.

Daniel 9:24 states that one of the purposes of the 70 weeks was “to anoint the Most Holy” (NKJV).

The next verse says that the 69 weeks would stretch from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to “Messiah the Prince” (Daniel 9:25, NKJV).

Interestingly, both the Hebrew and Greek words for Messiah mean “the anointed one.”

When was Jesus anointed?

At His baptism in A.D. 27 (Luke 3:22). This event, at which the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus in the form of a dove, marked the beginning of His ministry.

The apostle Paul also recognized this event as Jesus’ anointing when he said in Acts 10:38:

“How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him” (NKJV).
Jesus was about 30 at His baptism in A.D. 27 (Luke 3:23). Thus, His birth would have been in 4 B.C. (remember, there is no year 0). This date lines up with the reign of Herod the Great (37–4 B.C.), who was the king at the time of Jesus’ birth (Matthew 2).6

Jesus’ crucifixion​

The next event in the 70-week prophecy is Jesus’ crucifixion, which took place after His three-and-a-half-year ministry in the spring of A.D. 31.

This coincides exactly with what the prophecy foretold. Daniel 9:26 (NKJV) says, “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.”

Verse 27 adds, “Then He [the Messiah] shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering” (NKJV).

During the last seven years of the 70-week prophecy, Jesus was confirming the covenant—the faithful promise God had made repeatedly throughout the Old Testament that He would provide salvation for His people (Genesis 3:15; 15:1–18; Isaiah 54:10).

And as Daniel 9:26–27 points out, Jesus was to be “cut off,” and “in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.”

The middle of the week of seven years was three and a half years—precisely when Jesus died. His crucifixion was His cutting off.

Isaiah 53:8, a passage of Scripture that foretold Jesus’ suffering, uses similar wording:

“He was cut off from the land of the living; He was struck because of my people’s rebellion” (CSB).
But why the term “cut off”?

It has its roots in an ancient practice of solidifying a contract, called “cutting a covenant.”

In the ritual, an animal was cut in two, and the individuals making the covenant with each other would pass between the pieces.

A little gruesome?

Yes, but this ritual had deep significance.

Ty Gibson, a Seventh-day Adventist author and speaker, writes,

“The ritual of cutting an animal in two and walking between the severed pieces communicated that a person was pledging their very life to fulfill their promise.”
And God Himself made a covenant like this with Abraham and all the generations to follow (Genesis 15).

But there’s more—God didn’t just hold up His end of the deal. He chose to be cut off to hold up our end. He was faithful on our behalf!

All of that is hinted at in the 70-week prophecy.

Jesus’ death fulfilled other elements of it as well. Daniel 9:24 says the 70 weeks would:

  • Make an end of sins. Jesus didn’t die to pardon Himself; He died for us and our countless sins. Daniel 9:26 alludes to this when it says Jesus was “cut off, but not for Himself.” And the even greater news is that His death has provided for the ultimate triumph over sin so that someday it will be completely eradicated from our world (John 1:29).
  • Bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The moment Jesus died, the curtain in the Jewish temple was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). This was overwhelmingly significant because, for centuries, the Jews had sacrificed animals to God in the temple as a symbol of receiving pardon for their sins. It was a physical reminder of what Jesus would do on the cross. He was the ultimate sacrifice for every person’s sin, putting an end to the sacrificial system of the temple (Hebrews 9:11–15; 10:12).
  • Seal up vision and prophecy. The 70 weeks are a continuation of a prophecy that an angel presented to Daniel in chapter 8: the 2300 days. Just like a seal guarantees the authenticity of a document, the 70-week prophecy helps guarantee the authenticity of the 2300-day prophecy and establish its timeline and later fulfillment.7 We’ll look at this more in a later section.

The stoning of Stephen and the gospel going more fully to the world​

Daniel doesn’t mention anything specific happening at the end of the 70-week prophecy, but from historical evidence, we can gather that after three and a half years, two things occurred: a Christian leader by the name of Stephen was martyred, and the gospel went more fully to the non-Jewish world.

Stephen was an early Christian and a powerful speaker who garnered attention because he was preaching about Jesus Christ and performing miracles. The Jewish leaders wanted to stop his work, so they falsely accused him and stoned him to death (Acts 6–7).

Christians often refer to him as the first Christian martyr.

With Stephen’s death, persecution against the early Christians increased, and many of them fled Jerusalem. In doing so, they carried the gospel farther, especially to non-Jews (Acts 8:1–4).

All throughout the Old Testament, the Jewish nation had been God’s special people (Deuteronomy 14:2), but they had struggled to remain faithful to Him. The purpose of the 490 years of the 70-week prophecy was to give them an opportunity to return to God (“seventy weeks are determined for your people”) and receive the Messiah. Instead, the leaders of the Jewish nation rejected Jesus and gave up their special position. They confirmed this decision in their stoning of Stephen.

This being said, every individual Jew still has the opportunity to be part of God’s family.

But now, everyone who loves and accepts Christ forms that special nation (1 Peter 2:9).

The destruction of Jerusalem​

The 70-week prophecy also mentions an event that occurred after the close of the prophetic time. This was the destruction of Jerusalem, and particularly, the temple.

Daniel 9:26 says,

“And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” (NKJV).
The Jewish-Roman War lasted from A.D. 66–73. Its most decisive event occurred in A.D. 70 when the future Roman emperor Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.8

With the utter destruction of Jerusalem, all the surviving Jewish people fled. They scattered permanently throughout Asia, Africa, and Europe. This also ended the physical temple sacrifices that the Jews who didn’t believe in Jesus continued making.

And with that, we come to the end of our overview of the 70 weeks.

But a question remains: If the time period ended within the first century, what is its significance to us today?

You may remember we mentioned that the 70 weeks form part of a larger prophecy. Let’s see how they connect to each other and relate to the times we’re living in.

How the 70 weeks relate to the end times​

A timeline explaining the events of the 2300-Day Prophecy

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are tied to the 2,300 days mentioned in Daniel 8—a prophecy that comes right down to our time. Through learning about both of them, we can better understand what Jesus is doing in heaven to prepare His people for the Second Coming.

Daniel received the vision about the 2,300 days when he was in Babylon. In the vision, the angel Gabriel told Daniel:

“For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed” (Daniel 8:14, NKJV).
The 2,300 days represent 2,300 literal years. When they would come to an end, something called “the cleansing of the sanctuary” would take place.

But what is the cleansing of the sanctuary?

This phrase refers to a special work of judgment that Jesus would perform in the heavenly sanctuary, foreshadowed by the Day of Atonement ceremony of the Israelites. It was the final step in completely cleansing the Israelite camp and sanctuary from sin.

Just as the high priest in Israel would once a year go into the Most Holy Place compartment of the sanctuary and symbolically cleanse all the sins, so Jesus would enter once and for all into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. There, He would cleanse the records of heaven and blot out all the sins of those who have accepted His gift of salvation.9

According to the timeline of Daniel, this judgment takes place right before Jesus’ return (Daniel 7:9–10; 13–14).

But we can pinpoint an even clearer date when we realize that the 2,300 years began at the same time as the 70-week prophecy.

How do we know?

After seeing the vision about the 2,300 days, Daniel was disturbed and wanted to understand what it meant (Daniel 8:27).

He prayed earnestly for answers, but those answers would not come for a while. Finally, the next chapter shows Daniel praying when the angel Gabriel visits him again.

Gabriel tells him, “Consider the matter and understand the vision” (Daniel 9:23, NKJV). No other vision has been mentioned between Daniel 8 and Daniel 9, so he must have been referring to the 2,300 days.

And there’s more:

When Gabriel begins to tell Daniel the 70-week prophecy, he says, “Seventy weeks are determined” (Daniel 9:24, NKJV).

The word for determined means “cut off” in Hebrew.

Read that way, Daniel 9:24 would say, “Seventy weeks are cut off for your people and for your holy city.”

Cut off from what? The most probable answer is the 2,300-day period mentioned in the preceding chapter.

That means that the 2,300 years also began in 457 B.C. And it ended in A.D. 1844.

But there’s another connection.

The 70 weeks foretold Jesus’ role as a sacrifice for our sins, fulfilling the sacrifice of animals in the Old Testament sanctuary.

And the cleansing of the sanctuary that will happen after the 2,300 years will fulfill another aspect of the sanctuary services: Jesus doing a work that will get rid of sin for good.

Ever since the fall of mankind, God has had a plan to restore us to the perfect beings we were created to be. This promise has echoed through the annals of time. Someday, Jesus will come, and all sin will be completely eradicated.

The 70 weeks are an integral part of this promise being kept. They foretold the first coming of Jesus, who would make a way to restore God’s people to perfection. And the 2,300-day prophecy links the 70 weeks to the sanctuary’s cleansing—the final step in getting rid of the sins of God’s people.

The 70 weeks point to the one who put the plan of salvation into action—and will bring it to completion.
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