• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

For those who are gamers, how do you handle Christian Ethics vs gaming?

I cannot wait until Gate Zero comes out. I've had it on my wishlist for some time.
I have created a criteria to base my future gaming off of.

Must be MMO or persistent multiplayer
Absolutely no non-Christian deity worship or deity-sourced powers (no gods, pantheons, altars, blessings, priests, divine magic, etc.)
No furry / anthro / beast race options (playable or major NPCs)
Arcane or learned magic is fine
Elemental / natural magic is fine
PvE-friendly content required (safe zones, PvE servers, or opt-in PvP only)
Crafting, building, or housing systems (the deeper the better)
Active playerbase in 2025 (not dead or <100 concurrent)
Actually released and playable now (or very close with confirmed global date)

I've been doing some research and have came up with these games that interest me.
War of Rights
Star Citizen
Albion Online
Myth of Empires
Corepunk
Avorion
…and Bellatores on the 2026 watchlist. English will be supported in the full release but is not supported in closed beta.

I am still researching to enhance my list of possible games to try out. The list might not be perfect and I still trying to refine it and might have to trim something out. Maybe one of them will actually work out.

Man's doctrine may change, but God does not.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. - Hebrews 13:8
That's an interesting bit of information.
I've never heard about until now.
I had to research it.

Arcane magic, also known as learned magic, is a disciplined and scholarly pursuit that involves the study and mastery of magical principles through rigorous training and knowledge acquisition. It is typically drawn from invisible streams of energy known as arcane currents, which flow through reality and can be harnessed by those who understand their patterns. Practitioners of arcane magic, such as wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, and bards, often rely on incantations, gestures, arcane runes, and tools like wands or spellbooks to channel and focus this power. +source The magic is often described as a form of science or mathematics, involving precise calculations and formulas to manipulate the fabric of reality.

When I read this, I wondered, '...but how would one go about determining what kind of magic God required his people to stay away from, when he said, "you shall not practice magic." Leviticus 19:26, and "There shall not be found among you ... anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer, casts spells... For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD." Deuteronomy 18:10, 12"

Learned magic was available, from the beginning, even into the first century.
When Paul was performing miracles, and the people saw the power of God, over that of the magic practicing Jews, "a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver." Acts 19:19

What were the arts learned by the Babylonian (Daniel 1:20), Philistines (Isaiah 2:6), and Egyptian(Exodus 7:11) priests?

Evidence of arcane or learned magic in ancient Egypt and Babylon is well-documented through literary, religious, and material sources. Sources 1 2 3
In ancient Egypt, magical practice was deeply integrated into religious and medical traditions, with practitioners known as lector-priests (ẖry-ḥb), who were highly educated and served as ritual specialists. These individuals were responsible for reciting incantations, performing healing rituals, and conducting ceremonies such as the "Opening of the Mouth" to ensure the deceased’s passage into the afterlife. The concept of Heka, a divine force believed to be capable of manipulating reality, underpinned much of their practice, blurring the line between magic, religion, and medicine. Magical texts, including funerary spells and daily-use incantations, provide detailed instructions on rituals, tools, and materials, indicating a structured and learned tradition. The title "ḥarṭummīm," used in the Hebrew Bible to describe Egyptian magicians, is a Hebrew rendering of the Egyptian "ẖry-ḥb," confirming the elite status and scholarly nature of these practitioners.
In Babylon, magic was similarly institutionalized and tied to priestly and scholarly roles. The Chaldeans, who were regarded as a colony of the Egyptians by Diodorus of Sicily, were known for their expertise in astronomy and divination, which were considered forms of magical knowledge. Babylonian magicians, or "Chaldeans," were consulted for interpreting dreams and omens, as seen in the biblical accounts of King Nebuchadnezzar and King Belshazzar summoning them to interpret dreams and mysterious inscriptions like "Mene, Tekel, Perez". The practice of divination using arrows, known as Rhabdomanteia, was also documented among the Babylonians, reflecting a systematic approach to magical consultation. The high regard for magical knowledge is further evidenced by King Darius, son of Hystaspes, who had the inscription "That he had been the chief and the master of the Magi of Persia" engraved on his father’s mausoleum, highlighting the prestige of magical expertise in the region.

In ancient Egypt, arcane or learned magic was deeply intertwined with literacy, religious practice, and the possession of secret knowledge, primarily transmitted through written texts.
History of Magic
Magic in Ancient Egypt

I think you just added to the interest of this thread, and my knowledge.
Fascinating stuff!
The learned magician was often depicted as a scholar who derived power from written spells and sacred books. The famous Demotic tales of Setne Khaemwaset, son of Ramesses II, exemplify this archetype; Setne’s quest for the Book of Thoth symbolizes the acquisition of arcane knowledge that grants control over supernatural forces.

Similarly, in the story of Djedi, a hundred-year-old magician summoned by King Hordjedef, his powers are explicitly tied to written knowledge - he demands a boat to carry his students and writings, emphasizing the importance of textual transmission.
This model of the literate magician, who uses written spells to manipulate reality, was central to both literary and non-literary magical traditions
.

The use of written magic was reinforced by the belief that writing itself had transformative power.
The Egyptians believed that inscribing a name or image could influence reality, a principle seen in execration texts where figurines of enemies were inscribed with their names and then destroyed to symbolically defeat them. Magical papyri, such as the Harris Magical Papyrus and the Metternich Stela, contain spells that combine mythological references (translation magic), analogic principles (like affects like), and contagious magic (using objects imbued with power). These texts were often used by the literate elite, as most Egyptians were not able to read, and spells were sometimes activated by drinking water that had been poured over a stela
.

Even in the Graeco-Roman period, learned magicians continued to play significant roles, using Greek and Demotic scripts, along with non-alphabetic magical signs (charaktêres) and incantations (voces magicae), to invoke ancient, secret knowledge. The figure of the magician was not limited to priests; doctors, midwives, and wise women also employed ḥeka in healing and protection, though the most powerful forms of magic were associated with those who had access to written traditions and temple libraries.

It makes sense, doesn't it, that this knowledge would be passed on to man, through fallen angels.
When you think about it, can the science of computers and similar devices be use to perform arcane magic? Nothing to doubt. People already believe this is happening.

@Delvianna would you agree?
As for me, the wisdom of applying the first part of Proverbs 22:3 is necessary here.
A sensible person sees danger and takes cover, but the inexperienced keep going and are punished.
Upvote 0

The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

, but the central idea is ability, not the fact of coming itself.
I disagree, it includes the coming. Seems you still leaving room for mans will to seal the deal
I do agree with you when you say "the drawing results in discipleship and fellowship with Christ,"
Doesnt seem like it
but I do not think you can conclude that from "no one can come to me unless drawn." All that "no one can come to me unless drawn" tells us is that the drawing is necessary in order for coming to occur, not sufficient to produce coming.
I disagree, that defeats the need of drawing to Christ, you may as well say man has the freewill to come to Christ
What does entail sufficiency, however, is the final clause, "and I will raise him up on the last day." It is that statement that tells us the one drawn/enabled = the one who actually comes and is raised.
Now that's a contradiction. No disrespect but you seem doubleminded on this matter.
Upvote 0

Reading ancient texts

Understood.
Here is a full, rigorous analytical method that assumes:

Pseudepigrapha does not exist

Meaning:

  • If a text says “I, X, wrote this”, then we treat that authorship claim as true, unless it is literally impossible.
  • If a text is anonymous, we do not assume later forgery or fictional attribution.
  • We never claim “someone pretended to be Moses / Enoch / Ezra / Paul.”
  • We treat all authorship claims as genuine unless external evidence forces a different conclusion.
This creates a completely different dating method — one that fully allows prophecy, respects authorship claims, and refuses late skeptical re-dating unless absolutely necessary.

Below is the upgraded framework.


⭐ FOUNDATIONAL RULES​

✔ Rule 1 — Prophecy is real and allowed

Prophetic accuracy is not evidence of late composition.

✔ Rule 2 — Authorship claims are assumed honest

If the text identifies its author, we accept it unless:

  • language from thousands of years later appears
  • the text references events far after the author’s life as past history (not prophecy)

✔ Rule 3 — Oldest manuscript data only tells us that the text existed before that date

Manuscripts do not determine original composition dates.

✔ Rule 4 — No anonymous text is assumed forged

If anonymous, we leave it anonymous — we don’t invent pseudonymity.

✔ Rule 5 — Ancient communities preserved authorship correctly unless strong contrary evidence exists

This treats ancient Jewish and Christian testimony as reliable.


⭐ PART 1 — HOW TO DATE A TEXT WHEN PSEUDEPIGRAPHA IS REMOVED AS A CATEGORY​

Normally, scholars re-date texts because they reject prophecy or assume pseudepigrapha.

Under this method those reasons are gone, so we date texts using only:

✔ Language​

✔ Culture​

✔ Historical background​

✔ Intertextual relationships​

✔ Archaeology​

✔ The text’s OWN claims​

Here is the step-by-step process.


⭐ STEP 1 — Accept the internal authorial claim as true

Examples:

  • Daniel → written by Daniel in Babylon
  • Isaiah → written by Isaiah son of Amoz
  • 1 Enoch → written (or dictated) by Enoch
  • Jubilees → written by Moses via an angel
  • 2 Esdras → written by Ezra
  • Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs → written by Jacob’s sons
  • Revelation → written by John
  • Psalm superscriptions → written by David, Asaph, Moses, etc.
We treat these as intended historical fact, not literary devices.

Only if internal contradictions arise will we reconsider.


⭐ STEP 2 — Test the linguistic era of the text

Language cannot be faked easily across centuries.

We examine:

  • vocabulary
  • grammar
  • syntax
  • orthography
  • loanwords
  • idioms
  • linguistic drift
This gives an approximate dating range.

BUT if the linguistic era conflicts with the author’s lifetime, we explore explanations other than pseudepigrapha, such as:

✔ later scribal updating​

✔ preservation through translation​

✔ revised editions by disciples​

✔ transmission into later linguistic forms​

Same as what happened with:

  • the Hebrew of the Torah (copied for 1000+ years)
  • the Greek of Daniel (translated, not original)
  • Proverbs (royal collections added over time)
None of these imply forgery.


⭐ STEP 3 — Determine the cultural background of the text

Prophecy does not describe:

  • calendar systems
  • priestly rituals
  • purity practices
  • economic life
  • social structure
  • administration
  • temple layout
If the cultural background fits the author’s time → authorship is strengthened.

If it reflects later culture → use scribal updating, not pseudonymity.

Example:
Moses’ writings may show later Hebrew style because scribes recopied it for centuries.


⭐ STEP 4 — Identify historical assumptions as current reality

Ask:

  • Is the temple standing?
  • Which empire rules?
  • What political offices exist?
  • What weapons or technology are normal?
  • What borders or nations are active?
These show what the author saw, not prophecy.

Prophecy predicts the future; it does NOT describe present institutions in the wrong century.

Example:
If a text references Rome as already ruling → cannot be 600 BC.

But if a text predicts Rome → that is allowed.


⭐ STEP 5 — Use intertextual relationships correctly

If Text A uses Text B → B must be older.

But we do NOT say:

  • “Text A rewrites Genesis; therefore, it must be late and pseudepigraphic.”
We say:

  • “Text A knows Genesis, so it came after Genesis.”
Simple, clean, no skepticism.


⭐ PART 2 — HOW TO HANDLE MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE WITHOUT FALSE ASSUMPTIONS​

Most late-dating arguments depend on:

“The oldest manuscript is from year X, so the text must have been written around year X.”
This is incorrect.

Here is the correct method:

✔ Oldest manuscript = latest possible date, not earliest.​

✔ Transmission explains later language.​

✔ Absence of early manuscripts proves nothing.​

Most ancient texts lost 90% of manuscripts.

✔ Prophecy is allowed, so fulfilled predictions do not require late dates.​


⭐ PART 3 — PRACTICAL EXAMPLES OF HOW THIS METHOD CHANGES TEXT ANALYSIS​

Daniel

Under this method:

  • Linguistically possible for 6th century
  • Culture fits Babylon/Persia
  • Explicit authorial claims stand
  • Prophecy allowed
  • Manuscripts from 150 BC do NOT date composition
  • Early Jewish canon accepts Daniel as ancient
→ Daniel = 6th century BC
No “Maccabean forgery.”


Isaiah

Under this method:

  • Isaiah is one book
  • Later-sounding Hebrew can be scribal updating or dictated prophecy
  • Prophecy of Cyrus is allowed
  • Early Jewish tradition strongly supports unity
  • No pseudepigrapha category to divide the text
→ Isaiah written by Isaiah (8th century BC)
No Deutero- or Trito-Isaiah theory required.


1 Enoch

If pseudepigrapha does not exist:

  • We accept the attribution to Enoch
  • Later Hebrew/Aramaic forms = transmission
  • Prophecy allowed
  • Watchers story predates flood in narrative
  • Qumran manuscripts reflect preservation, not date of origin
→ Core Enochic writings extremely ancient
Later expansions possible, but not pseudonymous.


⭐ PART 4 — FINAL CHECKLIST (NO PSEUDEPIGRAPHA ALLOWED)​

When analyzing any ancient text:

✔ 1. Take internal authorship claims as genuine​

✔ 2. Examine language for transmission-era effects​

✔ 3. Identify cultural background (prophecy doesn’t change this)​

✔ 4. Interpret prophecy as prediction, not evidence of late date​

✔ 5. Treat early tradition as reliable​

✔ 6. Treat oldest manuscripts as minimum age​

✔ 7. Avoid all “forgery” or “fictional attribution” explanations​

This is a completely valid approach historically as long as you apply it consistently.
Upvote 0

Lawsuit accuses Abercrombie & Fitch of funding, turning a blind eye toward, ex-CEO's sex-trafficking operation

Prison officials tell judge ex-Abercrombie & Fitch CEO is competent to stand trial

[HIs lawyers] had said at least four medical professionals concluded that Jeffries’ cognitive issues were “progressive and incurable” and that he would not “regain his competency and cannot be restored to competency in the future.”

[Prison doctor disagrees with the docs for hire.]
Upvote 0

revelation 1-12 happened 70 ad

AI is not the Holy Spirit and I have found failures when it tries to interpret. The Holy Spirit is supposed to guide (John 16:13) and if you trust AI's answers over God's guidance, you're making AI an idol. I suggest you not do that.
I have found multiple things with AI i may never have found myself. It is a pattern recognition expert, and understanding the bible is just that pattern recognition.
Upvote 0

Trump admin. concedes Maryland man from El Salvador was mistakenly deported/sent to mega prison - shrugs 'nothing can be done' [ETA: oh but it can!]

Judge orders immediate release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from immigration detention

Judge Paula Xinis said he has been detained "without lawful authority.”

U.S. District Judge Paula Xinis said in her order on Thursday that "since Abrego Garcia's wrongful detention in El Salvador, he has been re-detained, again without lawful authority."

Xinis said that the absence of a removal order prevents the government from removing Abrego Garcia from the U.S.

Judge Xinis, the judge in Abrego Garcia's immigration case, in August blocked the government from removing him from the United States until the habeas case challenging his removal was resolved in court.
211qxk.jpg
Upvote 0

2 Canons of the bible

Hello samaus123456789,

Jesus confirmed the order of the Hebrew Scriptures in the three sections of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms(writings) that today is known as the Hebrew Bible or Hebrew Canon. It was ordered and arranged by God. God didn't leave anything out, He arranged exactly how He wants it, then man changed the order and has tried adding books written by men ever since beginning with what is known today as the Septuagint.

Why did you change the order that Jesus confirmed as the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms as Scripture?

Just like the disordering done in Alexandria, Egypt putting Psalms ahead of some of the Prophets bringing disorder to what God arranged and then trying to insert books written by men into the mix.



No, that is not true or correct, Jesus didn't ever refer to 1 Enoch as Scripture and 1 Enoch is not in His canon and is not Scripture.

The Sadducees in Matthew 22:24 quoted Deuteronomy 25:5 applying it in error and that is what Jesus referred and replied to in Matthew 22:29 telling them they err and didn't know Scriptures they were quoting from Deuteronomy incorrectly.

In Matthew 22:32 Jesus went on to quote Exodus 3:6 in his further response to them applying false doctrine to their misuse of Deuteronomy 25:5 and corrected them by referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all still being alive with God because God is not the God of the dead, He is the God of the living!

In your pursuit to falsely establish 1 Enoch to anything other than words of men you too make a similar error of incorrectly applying Jesus to quoting something He never quoted or even hinted at as being Scripture!







No again, complete nonsense and false doctrine that has been used to deceive people! Jude didn't quote a writing by Enoch. Lol

It is written

Jude 14-15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam prophesied of these, SAYING, "Behold the LORD cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

It is written what is quoted of Enoch is what he SAID not what he wrote, nice try though!

The word of God was passed down verbally at that time, not written and certainly Jude didn't quote a false uninspired written document called 1 Enoch written by men. You do err in believing this nonsense!

1 Enoch is not written like all the other biblical texts at all because it's not inspired or written by God!

Here is the correct order of the Hebrew Texts and what belongs as God ordered them in the following link and there's no other texts that belong.

Correct order of the Hebrew texts link

Blessings,
Love Fountain
Everything I said is right. Jesus was referencing 1 Enoch, and other standard OT texts. The Sadducees mess up a story from Tobit about the woman with 7/8 husbands. If you believe 1 Enoch is not inspired then it is not for you. These other books are only for the wise.
Upvote 0

revelation 1-12 happened 70 ad

If that's true, where is Jesus now? The 2nd coming starts his personal and literal reign in Israel as the worlds capital is Jerusalem. (Micah 4:2, Isaiah 2:3, Zechariah 14:16) Plus, we're almost 2,000 years passed 70AD, so all of scripture doesn't back up your theory. You can't have conflicting information and what I listed conflicts with your statements.

Also, 70AD doesn't fulfill Daniel 9, 11 & 12 either which still puts this future which has parallel information in Revelation which conflicts with a lot of these answers.

ALL AI IS BIASED. It bases it's answers on what you want to hear. Even the creators say so. Do not let any AI be your brain, it's logic isn't perfect and its answers are biased. For example, there is a viral video of a woman who follows the quaran. She asks chatgpt if it would become muslim and it says yes. She asked which follows Jesus more, Muslims or Christians and its answer is Muslims. Biased answers, based on her own input reguardless of the fact she asked for a non-biased answer because it's programmed to do that. (Link to that video, you can check out her other chatgpt questions about Muslims and one where chatgpt becomes muslim). Do not trust AI for scripture study.
Micah 2 was about Pentecost. Israel was restored on Pentecost new covenant church the third temple was born in a day. I have a post on it. Zech 14 happened in 1/2 maccabees. Isaiah 2 was pentecost too.
Dan 9, and 12 ended 70 AD. Dan 11 ended before 70 AD whenever it was.

I already know the answers chat gpt just formats it nicely for me.
Chat gpt is awesome for the bible.
Trust AI for scripture.

Rev 13-22 is future.
Upvote 0

Chat GPT is amazing for bible history, and Daniel 11:36-45

Using AI as a replacement for prayerfully study of the Bible is dangerous because you can make it say almost anything. I have seen it give both sides of the argument, but if you ask it to go by "Bible only" not outside commentaries you tend to get better results, but if you do not know the Scriptures and are relying on AI, its not replacement for God's Truth which can only be found with careful and prayerful continuing study of God's Holy Word.
I have 15k hours bible study. Chat GPT is amazing. If it is not for you don't use it.
  • Like
Reactions: AFrazier
Upvote 0

Secretary Rubio orders diplomats to return to using Times New Roman, ousting Biden's 'wasteful' 'Woke' Calibri

US Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Tuesday ordered diplomats to return to using Times New Roman font in official communications, calling his predecessor Antony Blinken’s decision to adopt Calibri a “wasteful” diversity move, according to an internal department cable seen by Reuters.

The department under Blinken in early January 2023 had switched to Calibri, a modern sans-serif font, saying this was a more accessible font for people with disabilities because it did not have the decorative angular features and was the default in Microsoft products.

“To restore decorum and professionalism to the Department’s written work products and abolish yet another wasteful DEIA program, the Department is returning to Times New Roman as its standard typeface,” the cable said.

I've worked at several organizations where the communications department decided on the font, which I found unnecessary.

There is nothing related to DEIA in Calibri or Times New Roman. I believe both are very good fonts. However, Times New Roman has been around longer than Calibri, so it is easily available.

What I find astonishing is that my tax dollars are being used exceptionally well with much more thoughtfulness: the Secretary of State, under both administrations, appears more concerned about the choice of font than addressing the significant chaos occurring in the world.
Upvote 0

Reading ancient texts

⭐ 1. METHOD FOR EVALUATING ANY ANCIENT TEXT​

Use these 6 steps.
Historians and scholars do exactly this.


Step 1 — Identify What the Text Is

Ask:

  • Is it history?
  • Prophecy?
  • Myth?
  • Liturgy?
  • Polemic?
  • Legal text?
  • Apocalyptic?
  • Commentary?
Apocalyptic texts (like Enoch, Revelation, 4 Ezra) do not operate like history.
Polemic texts exaggerate.
Legal texts idealize.

Understanding genre prevents misreading.


Step 2 — Date the Text (Range, not exact)

We almost never know exact dates.
So we estimate:

  • earliest possible date (terminus a quo)
  • latest possible date (terminus ad quem)
Everything in antiquity has ranges, not precision.

Example:
1 Enoch Book of Watchers → 200–160 BC, maybe older.
We don’t need exactness — just the window.


Step 3 — Identify the Audience

Ancient texts were written for:

  • a sect
  • a king
  • a court
  • a temple
  • exiles
  • a religious movement
  • a theological agenda
Knowing the audience explains why certain things are emphasized.


Step 4 — Compare Parallel Sources

Ask:

  • How does it line up with Josephus?
  • With the Septuagint?
  • With DSS?
  • With archaeology?
  • With inscriptions?
  • With internal logic?
Agreement strengthens reliability.
Disagreement means we must be cautious.


Step 5 — Separate Claims From Interpretation

“Text says X” is different from
“Therefore X means Y.”

Write them separately:

  • Observation = what the text actually says
  • Interpretation = what you think it means
  • Speculation = what might be intended
This protects you from confusing ideas with evidence.


Step 6 — Give a Probability, Not Certainty

Historians think in levels of confidence:

  • High probability
  • Moderate probability
  • Low probability
  • Unknown
Not everything is a yes/no answer.


⭐ 2. CHECKLIST FOR DETECTING BIAS OR OVERCONFIDENCE​

Use this on yourself any time you form an idea.


Internal Bias Check

Ask:

  • Am I only reading sources that agree with my conclusion?
  • Am I ignoring information that challenges my idea?
  • Am I too emotionally attached to a theory?
If yes → pause.


Complexity Check

Ask:

  • Does my explanation seem too simple for a massive ancient world?
  • Am I assuming one cause, when ancient history is multi-causal?
  • Am I forgetting cultural diversity?
If your theory feels “perfect,” it’s probably too simple.


Expert Check

Ask:

  • Do actual scholars agree even partially?
  • If not, why?
  • Am I interpreting texts in ways professionals find unlikely?
If 0% of experts support an idea → proceed cautiously.


Evidence Check

Ask:

  • Do I have multiple independent sources?
  • Or just one obscure passage?
Single-text conclusions are dangerous.


⭐ 3. HOW HISTORIANS AVOID FALSE CERTAINTY​

Professional historians use these principles:


Rule 1 — Always distinguish evidence from hypothesis

Never say “This happened” unless there is direct evidence.
Say “This is a hypothesis based on X and Y.”


Rule 2 — Treat silence as silence

If a text doesn’t mention something, we cannot infer it exists.
Ancient writers omitted a lot.


Rule 3 — Remember we don’t have autographs

Every text is a copy of a copy.
So historians:

  • expect transmission errors
  • expect missing details
  • expect later interpolations
  • avoid dogmatic use of a single manuscript

Rule 4 — Use the principle of minimal assumption

Prefer explanations that require the fewest leaps.


⭐ 4. HOW TO THINK WHEN YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN THE ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS​

This is VERY important and humbling.

No one on earth has seen:

  • the autograph of Genesis
  • the autograph of Isaiah
  • the autograph of 1 Enoch
  • the autograph of Jubilees
  • the autograph of Matthew
  • the autograph of Paul
  • the autograph of Josephus
Not one.

So you are in the same position as every other human on earth — even the scholars.

Because of this, we must:

  • assume copying errors exist
  • assume scribes sometimes harmonized or expanded
  • assume theological motivations sometimes shaped transmission
  • compare manuscripts rather than rely on one
  • stay humble in interpretation
Every ancient text is an echo, not the source.

This protects you from overconfidence.


⭐ 5. HOW TO HANDLE UNKNOWN TRANSMISSION HISTORY​

Transmission history is rarely fully known.

But here’s how to approach it:


Principle of Textual Layers

Almost all ancient texts have:

  • older core
  • later expansions
  • editorial shaping
  • translation effects
  • commentary inserted in margins that eventually got copied into the text
Never assume a text is uniform.


Principle of Cultural Drift

Beliefs change over time:

  • Jewish religion changed between 1000 BC and 100 BC
  • Christianity changed between AD 30 and AD 200
  • Scribes add interpretations
  • Traditions adapt to new eras
So a text often reflects its final community, not the original event.


Principle of Lost Information

We have lost maybe 90% of ancient writings.
This means:

  • we often see only one side of debates
  • we lack counterarguments
  • we misunderstand context
  • we guess more than we know
The correct mindset is:

“Here is what we can know from surviving evidence —
but the full picture is certainly bigger.”

⭐ 6. A PRACTICAL MINDSET FOR STUDYING ANCIENT TEXTS RESPONSIBLY​

Here is a grounded, healthy internal posture to adopt:


Humility

“I don’t know everything — and that’s okay.”


Curiosity, not certainty

“I want to understand, not prove.”


Slow conclusions

“If something seems obvious, I need to slow down and double-check.”


Comfort with ambiguity

“Some questions simply cannot be answered.”


Differentiate faith from history

Faith asks “What does this mean for me?”
History asks “What does the evidence show?”

Both can coexist as long as you don’t mix the tools.


Expect your views to evolve

If you’re doing it right, you will rethink things many times.
This is not failure — it is growth.


⭐ Final reassurance​

You said:

“I have never seen the autographs and I don’t know the transmission history.”
Exactly — no one has.
Not scholars, not pastors, not rabbis, not historians.

You are not behind anyone.
You are simply honest — and honesty is the foundation of wisdom.

You’re already doing the thing that keeps people from going off into strange, isolated interpretations:

You are willing to be corrected, cautious, and humble.
  • Like
Reactions: Philip_B

Trump admin. concedes Maryland man from El Salvador was mistakenly deported/sent to mega prison - shrugs 'nothing can be done' [ETA: oh but it can!]

Judge orders immediate release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from immigration detention

Judge Paula Xinis said he has been detained "without lawful authority.”

U.S. District Judge Paula Xinis said in her order on Thursday that "since Abrego Garcia's wrongful detention in El Salvador, he has been re-detained, again without lawful authority."

Xinis said that the absence of a removal order prevents the government from removing Abrego Garcia from the U.S.

Judge Xinis, the judge in Abrego Garcia's immigration case, in August blocked the government from removing him from the United States until the habeas case challenging his removal was resolved in court.
Upvote 0

$1 Trump coin: Treasury shares draft design for America's 250th birthday

For starters, they'd have to run some more analytical candidates instead of ones that appeal purely to emotion.

Generic platitudes and catch phrases about "The Trump family is abusing power to enrich themselves" (without being able to explain in detail how that's being done) isn't going to cut it - as evidenced by the current lot of Democratic house reps shouting it in unison, and over half of the country not really caring.

Now, perhaps that could change with the 120th upcoming congress, they seem to be running some younger and fresher candidates who may be more familiar with the subject matter. But as it currently stands...

A house rep in their upper 50's and 60's shouting about Trump's crypto scheme isn't going to carry much weight when it becomes clear that the extent of their knowledge on the subject is "I heard my grandkids talking about it, that's the one that has the Doge Dog on the picture right?"
A house majority is a big tent almost by definition. There's plenty of reps already in place who could manage this.

Ultimately tho, short of impeachment, the house itself doesnt seem to have much authority, Theres no law enforcement capacity - even if it creates new laws. And impeachment conviction requires a sympathetic senate. Probably the best they could do at the fed level is bring things to light via subpoena power - which is certainly better than nothing, but insufficient for results in an environment where enough voters would let anything slide.

Its the state level where the action could happen. And thats where they really blew it last time by not, essentially, conspiring across borders to lead with the most damning cases rather than the weak sauce charges they got. Do we really want a such a top down D party tho? Or even one where subservience and discipline is just habitual? Thats a 2 edged sword.

(Oh and go easy on us old folks! We're easily bamboozled by cute dogs and so on.)
Upvote 0

Ellen White on the mark of the beast for those that worship on Sunday

This type of behavior seems common on this forum. Some people see everything as an attack and some refuse to admit they are wrong even when presented with the evidence. This is what happens when you have so many people who have different beliefs. No one is going to be able to convince the other of anything and it quickly degenerates into confusion. This is sad and unfortunate but is also the reality. When I am faced with that brand of person I ignore them. Quoting scripture is irrelevant because everyone has their own private interpretation. There can be no healthy discussion under such circumstances.
Upvote 0

Is Colorado’s first “public Christian school” eligible for state funding? State education officials say no. Local officials aren't so sure

Story from October, but there haven't been a lot of new developments.... yet.

A new K-5 school in Pueblo, referred to as Colorado’s “first public Christian school” by its founders and authorizer, is at the center of a debate over whether its students qualify for public funding.

School officials from the 2-month-old Riverstone Academy say their students are owed state funding under protections in the U.S. Constitution while state education officials argue that allocating dollars to a school with religious teachings would violate both the state and U.S. Constitution.

The school has raised eyebrows at the Colorado Department of Education, which questions whether it is permitted to receive taxpayer funds in light of its Christian affiliation. Similar questions have bubbled up in other states like Oklahoma, where earlier this year the U.S. Supreme Court barred a religious charter school in the works from receiving public dollars.

The school, which teaches Christian-based curriculum from Masterbooks and Berean Builders, expands options for families and offers them the kind of education parents are seeking for their children, Friberg said.

“I think the big philosophical element of Riverstone is parents should have the right to send their kids to a wider variety of options than we have right now,” he said. “And so we believe there are parents who have a desire for this type of a school, not only the religious element but also the hands-on element in an elementary setting. So we decided we would try to provide it to the community.”

[Sure, if they want that product, they can go and pay for it.]

Board Treasurer Mike Heil raised concerns at that meeting about “eroding that separation of church and state” reflected in the U.S. Constitution.

Board President Lori Thompson responded to Heil’s concerns by saying that “separation of church and state is not contained in the United States Constitution.”

“My understanding is rooted in eighth grade social studies that says that the establishment clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution was explained by Thomas Jefferson as creating a wall of separation of church and state,” Heil told The Sun. “That interpretation has since been affirmed by the Supreme Court in a number of cases. In fact, they have frequently used his exact phrase. So when board members said that that isn’t in the Constitution, they might be nitpicking and say that specific phrase isn’t in there, but that function is absolutely there.”

[He can thank his 8th grade teacher for doing a good job.]

“As to whether or not we should support schools that have Christian values or that want to be a specific orientation to a religion of some sort, just so everyone’s aware, pre-the 1960s in every public school they taught the Bible and they prayed every morning in the classrooms, which was very much a part of our national heritage that every school promoted the values of the Ten Commandments and the Bible,” D’Avola said. “And they were funded. So there you go.”

[And what did SCOTUS think of that?]

South Carolina measles outbreak ‘accelerating’ with hundreds of unvaccinated students now in second 21-day quarantine

South Carolina health officials said mobile vaccination clinics have been deployed, but admitted that only a “small number of doses” were administered at the sites

As of Wednesday, there have been 111 reported measles cases in the northwest region of South Carolina, NBC News reports. The region includes Greenville and Spartanburg.

“We are faced with ongoing transmission that we anticipate will go on for many more weeks,” South Carolina Department of Public Health state epidemiologist Dr Linda Bell said during a Wednesday news briefing.

According to data compiled by NBC News, the K-12 vaccination rate for measles, mumps, and rubella in Spartanburg County was 90 percent for the 2024-2025 school year. While that number is high, doctors say at least a 95 percent vaccination rate is needed to stop outbreaks from occurring. Neighboring Greenville County's MMR vaccination rate was 90.5 percent.

In 2025, there have been 1,912 reported measles cases across the U.S. [the most since 1992, back before measles was 'eliminated' in the US], largely amongst unvaccinated children and teenagers, with 47 outbreaks reported since the start of 2025. That's nearly three times the number of outbreaks reported in 2024. Other hot spots outside of South Carolina include 176 reported cases in Arizona and 115 in Utah, according to state health officials.

B flat B♭

Thank you for your reply.
I will try and answer the rest of your post later, but my answer to this is, no, science is not in direct conflict with the Bible.

Genesis 1 says that in 6 days God made heaven and earth. The dispute has always been over "what is a day?"
Some people take that to be literal - 6 days of 24 hours; 72 hours in total. For me, that raises several questions:
i) what took him so long? God is God, he can heal, restore and create instantly. He could bring the whole universe into being in a moment. Why did the author of Genesis say that he split it into 6 "days"? Why did God create things separately - stars before trees, for example? Why did he create the sky on the 2nd day but only create birds on the 5th day? Why did he create 2 things - dry land and sea, which he said were good, and all vegetation and seed bearing plants, which he also said were good - on the third day?
ii) God is outside time. Peter said that with the Lord, a day is AS 1,000 years (a verse which is often misquoted.) What may seem like a day to God could be 1,000 or even, thousands of, years to us.
iii) I read an article once which said that scientists are coming to believe that the universe was created in the same order that is described in Genesis. IOW, first of all, there was light, then water, then dry ground, trees etc, then animals etc etc.

So it is perfectly possible that a "day" in Genesis 1 could be a period of time - maybe 1,000 years, maybe longer.
Only people who take the whole of the Bible to be literal will argue that 1 day = 24 hours. From that, they conclude that scientists are wrong, or lying. This, sometimes, leads to ridiculous conclusions like "the devil is using science to trick us", or "God put fossils on the earth to test our faith". Both of which I have heard Christians saying.

The purpose of Genesis 1 is to show WHO created the universe - God. It tells us what he thought of his creation - good, or very good. And the implication is that God created for a reason. Most people have reasons for doing things - the implication is that God created because he wanted to.
THAT is what Genesis 1 is about and that is what scientists cannot answer. They have no reason for creation - other than maybe a few atoms collided and somehow produced everything.

And there are many scientists who are Christians, and believe Genesis 1 and also what they know to be true as a result of their studies.
God created - end of.
Stronginhim wiliest it is true a thousand years can be referring to a long period of time 500 yrs a 1000 yrs 2000 yrs etc as with other passages where a thousand years is mentioned. In the context of 2nd Peter3;8 it seems to be an admonishment to believers to stand firm in their faith from scoffers who question the Lords return. Meaning that with the Lord a day is thousand years and a thousand years a day . And that God has unlimited time to fulfill his plan.
IMG_4094.jpeg
So can we use use the verse of 2nd Peter of a day meaning a long period of time like thousands or millions of years in the Genesis acount of 6 days of creation. Probably not because it has no bearing or reference to Genesis
IMG_4094.jpeg
.And there be others reasons why the 6 days of creation cannot be taken as millions or billions of years. Because God in his providence it seems has put 2 gigantic marble columns with their foundation set in cement by each day to stipulate what he meant . It goes something like this ( day one And the evening and the morning day 2 And the evening and the morning day 3 and the evening and the morning day 4 and the evening and the morning day 5 and the evening and the morning day 6 and the evening and morning. ) the text is clearly talking about 24 hour days. I do say perhaps scientist’s at least the ones who claim to be Christians should maybe question that there is something wrong with their dating methods and that the Bible says exactly what it says and that the science that is do confidently promoted is absolutely wrong and not the Bible
IMG_4094.jpeg
You did mention in your previous reply about why scientists are not trusted by the public . I did look into that some . In one survey I found. The pew research centre it gives a 51 percent figure for scientists who believe in God or a divine force or power. The other 49 percent being atheists. For the everyday community it was a 95 percent belief in some form of God and 5 percent atheist. The survey is rather old 2006. But I did find a more up to date surveys from 2020 onward the IERE org ( what percent believe in God ) it pretty well says much the same just not with stats that everyday people seem to believe in God in higher percentage wise than scientists. Maybe that is part of the mistrust of the scientific community. I do not fully know. And maybe after all the COVID lies where people had to endure losing their freedoms their jobs if they not take the jab and others being forced against their will and being thrown in jail if they so questioned the scientific line. All that and considering that 99.9 percent of people recovered with or without the jab . Stronginhim perhaps that’s another reason why people don’t have the reassurance of trust towards the scientific community as before. I’m just reading your thoughts on how slow was God in creating the world. Some funny : ) poor God no 7 days. You expect instantaneously
Upvote 0

It's not just the Epstein files, now...

Sounds like you're saying it could have been filed years ago but wasn't, as I did - with the reason being Biden added.
Yeah, I suppose one could interpret it that way if you misread my comments and ignore the Politico piece altogether.
Upvote 0

Filter

Forum statistics

Threads
5,879,570
Messages
65,435,890
Members
276,446
Latest member
ShannyKnight