Latest activity

Bradskii · 2025-11-05T15:46:14-0600

Fervent said:
Your attempts to put me on the hot seat are pure distraction. It's not on me to provide the solution, it's enough for me to raise the problem.

No, i won't answer questions that distract from the topic at hand. Relative morality is an oxymoron.

Then objective morality doesn't exist. And it's not that you have failed. You haven't even put a case forward.

You have had dozens of opportunities to put forward an argument for it. You decline to do so. You have been given many examples of moral matters and asked how you determine whether it is right or wrong. You have refused. You have been given detailed explanations of how people decide between right and wrong. You have simply hand waved them away as sophistry.

This hasn't been a discussion. It has been people putting forward their views on matters that they have thought about for decades. And you have refused to engage, except to constantly say 'No, you're wrong!' without putting forward the slightest indication of how you think it works. None whatsoever.

What a complete and utter waste of time.

ralliann · 2025-11-05T15:45:32-0600

essentialsaltes said:
No it applies to the government. The government cannot punish speech it doesn't like. Such as firing an employee for non-work-related speech.

This is not punishing speech. Nobody charged him with a crime!

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-05T15:43:21-0600

BPPLEE said:
If that's the case then the citizens will vote the politicians out

I hope so. Good point.

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-05T15:42:42-0600

concretecamper said:
There are plenty of non Roman Catholics who are very informative and offer a lot on this forum. Some people are I'll informed and some people are not.

True -

concretecamper said:
Just don't be so sensitive when someone corrects you.

Telling someone to read between the lines is not a correction - it is an assumption at best.

concretecamper said:
I and His Church agree 100 percent.

Yup - the 'Protestant church sure does - we are his church also -

concretecamper said:
So again, what was the purpose of your post? Was it to tell this forum that the teaching of His Church has not changed and that His Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Sole Mediator?

To talk about the article from the Vatican and the obvious corrections they are making - read the article.

concretecamper said:
Or was there another motive?

perhaps only one that you imagine - from me personally - none other.

essentialsaltes · 2025-11-05T15:42:30-0600

essentialsaltes said:
It's spreading out of the Oval Office

View attachment 370970

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN said:
I hope that's not solid gold. That's a waste of money.

At least I think it's clear this came out of a color printer, so possibly more expensive than gold. Have you seen those refill prices? Looks like they're almost out, too.

Dikaioumenoi · 2025-11-05T15:41:59-0600

fhansen said:
We don't argue against the fact that He makes it possible. We argue that our resistance can still thwart His purpose with it from actually happening. Your whole argument to begin with was that the word, by itself, necessarily indicates sufficient movement:

What I'm trying to point out to you is that your understanding of ἑλκύω necessitates that God does not necessarily make it possible. That is the implication of what you are saying, whether intended or not. What is the verb in John 6:44 that ἑλκύω conceptually modifies? δύναται, "is able." The drawing act of the Father is an act of moving the recipient from the state of "unable" to the state of "able." So if you say that this drawing can fail, what you are saying is that there is no guarantee that the Father succeeds in making it possible for people to come to Him.

I understand the point you're wanting to make regarding John 6:44 -- just because someone can come doesn't mean they will -- but what you're missing is that the semantics of ἑλκύω have nothing to do with that debate. ἑλκύω doesn't grammatically answer the question of whether or not someone actually comes to Christ. It answers the question of whether or not someone is able to do so. So when you suggest that ἑλκύω itself is not guaranteed to succeed, what you're implying is that God can attempt to make it possible for someone to come to Him, but there is no guarantee that attempt will succeed, that is, in making it possible.

It does not hurt your position in any way, in other words, to agree with me that ἑλκύω refers to a decisive movement from one position to another. That is not where the argument for irresistibility lies in the verse. The argument that the drawing (enabling) of the Father leads irresistibly to faith in Christ is a grammatical one, focused on the identity of αὐτόν ("him") grammatically uniting the actions of "draws" and "raised up."

fhansen · 2025-11-05T15:41:52-0600

Clare73 said:
Imputation (ellogao) of Ro 4:1-5 is not a "recognition," it is an accounting to, a crediting to, a reckoning to. . .in this case of "righteousness,"
just as Adam's sin is likewise accounted to, credited to, reckoned to (imputed to) mankind (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

Are you serious? Abraham was credited, counted, declared, reckoned righteous because he did the most basic act of righteousness a man can make before God. He turned to and acknowledged and obeyed Him as God.

Gene2memE · 2025-11-05T15:40:07-0600

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
To date, no Democrat has shown how universal healthcare would be funded;

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/house-bill/676

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/676

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all.pdf

https://medium.com/@teamwarren/ending-the-stranglehold-of-health-care-costs-on-american-families-bf8286b13086

https://kamalaharris.medium.com/my-plan-for-medicare-for-all-7730370dd421

Choices for Financing Medicare for All | Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget

Proposals to adopt a single-payer health care system – commonly called Medicare for All – have become increasingly popular.

www.crfb.org

https://www.rand.org/pubs/rgs_dissertations/RGSD375.html

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3106.html

Medicare for All: The Harris Plan - AAF

This report analyzes Medicare for All’s impact on health coverage, provider access, productivity, and budget.

www.americanactionforum.org

And, some general reading:

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.22.3.89?journalCode=hlthaff

How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

This chart collection examines how U.S. health spending compares to health spending in other similarly large, wealthy OECD countries using the OECD Health Statistics database.

www.healthsystemtracker.org

U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective, 2022: Accelerating Spending, Worsening Outcomes

This cross-national comparison of health care systems assesses U.S. health spending, outcomes, status, and service use relative to 12 other high-income countries.

www.commonwealthfund.org

https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/publications/reports/2022/09/understanding-differences-in-health-expenditure-between-the-united-states-and-oecd-countries_cafc404c/6f24c128-en.pdf

Hentenza · 2025-11-05T15:39:14-0600

HARK! said:
I worship every day. I rest on the Shabbat as eternally commanded.

Exodus 31:16 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 The people of Isra’el are to keep the Shabbat, to observe Shabbat through all their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Yes please post the exact wording of those who you claim spoke against Yah's eternal word.

I also worship every day but go to services on the Lords day which is Sunday. If you are Jewish then Exodus 31:16 applies to you.

Here is the ECF citations. Sorry for the length. I have others from the early third century if you wish to see them.

The Didache

1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(Didache Chapter XIV.11 —Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation (The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)
Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master (Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).
During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)
For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,1 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).
“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)
“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)

prodromos · 2025-11-05T15:38:50-0600

Apple Sky said:
Don't be silly

Then don't post nonsense. This is what you claim regarding crepuscular rays, that the sun is local, but it simply demonstrates that you do not properly understand perspective and how it affects the appearance of parallel rays.

Clare73 · 2025-11-05T15:38:15-0600

HARK! said:
I know people who are incapacitated, who live on government assistance; but most people have to work.

(CLV) 2Th 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave this charge to you: that "If anyone is not willing to work, neither let him eat."

Problem with understanding text?

Read post #56 again.

Nithavela · 2025-11-05T15:37:37-0600

3 democratic wins in states that are traditionally blue is not THAT impressive.

The fact that Coumogot beaten by a social democrat is far more interesting.

Clare73 · 2025-11-05T15:35:36-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
It doesn’t say another Sabbath rest, you added that to God’s Holy Word.

You need another Bible. . .read Heb 4:8-9.

The context is Sabbath rest.

FireDragon76 · 2025-11-05T15:35:01-0600

Danny Burmawi seems like a polemicist and ideologue. Even his organization, the Ideological Defense Institute, should be ringing alarm bells about his agenda. I'm not saying Christian persecution in the Middle East isn't real but... this guys narrative is overly simplistic and theological.

Hentenza · 2025-11-05T15:34:48-0600

HARK! said:
I cited my source. What is the real number? Please cite your source.

Wiki is not a reliable source. Secondly counting each non denom churches as a denomination is problematic at best.

comana · 2025-11-05T15:34:09-0600

dogs4thewin said:
so does that mean that doctors do not allow people to pay what they can. In my admittedly limited experenice doctors/hospitals here have offered payment plans. Now, if you do not pay like you say you will and you do not asks to change your plan yes it will go on your credit report and that provider may be less inclined to work with you on plans later.

The problem is so many patients have paid minimum or nothing at all after receiving services in the past. Doctors are now going to want all or a substantial portion of paid up front or cancel appointments and elective procedures. Keep in mind that any procedure that is not emergent is considered elective, even if it is for a serious condition.

Doctors have bills to pay too if they want to stay in business and non paying customers don’t pay the bills.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-05T15:33:51-0600

Gregory Thompson said:
Oh the apparition movement and such. Thanks.

Specifically one such apparition. As an Orthodox I can tell you Our Lady appears routinely and I accept most Roman Catholic apparitions uncritically. In the case of Our Lady of Fatima, there is some concern over what was meant by “the conversion of Russia” since obviously Russia did not need to be converted, except from the Communist Bolshevik infestation, and after a few years of that the people were quite ready to be converted back. Medjugorje I don’t think has been officially endorsed and if it was, I wouldn’t accept it.

However, Our Lady of Guadalupe, now that was a miracle, in which an Aztec miraculously painted an icon of the Theotokos with many features only seen in Eastern Orthodox icons, such as a mandorla, and that icon led to the mass-abandonment of the horrific Mesoamerican human sacrifice religions such as those of the Mexica and Maya peoples.

prodromos · 2025-11-05T15:32:55-0600

Apple Sky said:
The Earth stands still while our stars do this:

The don't on the equator, and once you cross the equator they rotate in the opposite direction.

And this simple, verifiable reality can never be explained by the flat earth model.

Apple Sky said:
And our "planets," once known as our wandering stars do this:

This is what we have observed throughout at least the time that men have looked to the sky.

Hardly, seeing as Neptune and Uranus weren't discovered until the 1800's

Apple Sky said:
And this simple, verifiable reality can never be explained by heliocentrism.

It is absolutely explained by heliocentrism. Anyone who claims otherwise is either wilfully ignorant or lying through their teeth.

Planetary Motion

Chesterton · 2025-11-05T15:32:35-0600

zippy2006 said:
But doesn't this answer your initial question?

I asked for links where he hates Jews, not "says bad things about them". I say bad things about our politicians or other groups. I don't hate them. Jesus said bad things about groups, Jews in particular, and we know He is love.

zippy2006 said:
To be clear, and in response to your post from the other thread, the portion of the video I linked is a number of clips of Fuentes promoting certain views or engaging in certain forms of rhetoric. Shapiro only appears for the first few seconds.

I watched the Nick parts of the clip. Nick's a showman, I think he loves being internet-famous, that's why I even doubt his sincerity to an extent.

In his earliest appearance on YouTube, he had a very different, toned-down personality. He was trying be like a normal mainstream news pundit. I recall when he was analyzing the 2016 candidates, he said Trump was "okay" but needed to dial down the rudeness and abrasiveness. Then Trump won the primary, and Nick's personality immediately changed. Like a light bulb went off over his head. He considered that the American people liked hearing blunt things from Trump, so he was going to out-Trump Trump.

He does things for effect. He's smiling broadly when he says he likes Hitler. He said those in power who practice demonry and witchcraft to inflict evil on our land should be killed, and some of them would be Jews. He didn't say Jews should be killed as Shapiro said he said.

But Shapiro is correct that the Left created him.

Hentenza · 2025-11-05T15:31:55-0600

HARK! said:
What is the Gentile church?

The one grafted into the tree (Rom. 11).

HARK! said:
One cannot be simultaneously be unbelieving and Israel (Yashar Al).

Israel in general rejected Jesus so, yes, they are unbelieving. I understand where you are coming from but there is a distinction.

HARK! said:
The renewed covenant is for those who have the Torah written on their hearts.

The new covenant of blood is for the church. The promises to Israel of a better covenant remain until fulfilled.

HARK! said:
What's that?

Luke 21:24

Clare73 · 2025-11-05T15:31:11-0600

fhansen said:
Ok, so God was pleased by his faith and so Abraham was recognized as righteous.

Are you serious? . . .

Imputation (ellogao) of Ro 4:1-5 is not a "recognition," it is an accounting to, a crediting to, a reckoning to. . .in this case of "righteousness,"
just as Adam's sin is likewise accounted to, credited to, reckoned to (imputed to) mankind (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

essentialsaltes · 2025-11-05T15:30:00-0600

Here are 6 'Beautiful Bill' tax changes that will benefit wealthy Americans and businesses

The changes approved by lawmakers in July lock in a friendlier tax climate for affluent Americans with lower rates and generous exemptions. While middle-income households may see some modest relief, the lion's share of the benefits will flow to those with substantial earnings, investment income, or large estates.

Lower tax brackets

During the first Trump administration, Republicans in Congress passed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 (TCJA), which temporarily reduced the top marginal tax rate from 39.6% to 37%. This change was originally set to expire at the end of 2025.

While many middle-income taxpayers will also benefit slightly from the permanent extension of lower TCJA rates, Rosenberg notes that "higher-income households benefit the most by far."

Pass-through exemption for business owners

Bonus depreciation

"Not everybody can go out and buy a private jet — but if you can, now that private jet is deductible in year one," Nitti says.

Higher federal deductible for state and local taxes

This provision primarily benefits high-income households in high-tax states, such as New York and California (Hey, that's me! Trump will stop beating me with the stick he started beating me with in 2017. What a guy!)

Higher exemption for estate and gift tax

The exemption has been made permanent at $15 million per individual and $30 million per married couple

Higher exclusion on some capital gains

Phillips says if you sold $10 million of qualifying stock with the entire amount treated as a taxable gain, "you wouldn't owe any federal capital gains tax. That's about a $2 million savings right there."

bbbbbbb · 2025-11-05T15:25:50-0600

tailored girdle

Richard T · 2025-11-05T15:25:22-0600

Christsfreeservant said:
On May 26, 2023, the Lord led me to write a short (29 page) book on the subject of church abuse. Yesterday I shared the introduction into the book’s content, and in the video portion of that I shared some of my background. And I will tell you here that I am almost 76 years of age, a teacher of the Scriptures for over 50 years, and called of God 21 years ago to write down what he is teaching me each day from his word and to post these writings on the internet, and that is what I have been doing the past 21 years.

In summary, what is being called “church” today is largely not the universal body of believers in Jesus Christ, but it is a conglomerate of institutions of human making which are incorporated (merged, joined, partnered) with the state (the government) and with the world. They are businesses of human origin which are being led by marketing goals and plans for how to “grow your churches,” i.e. businesses. And so they have altered the gospel and compromised with the world in order to attract the world to their gatherings.

The Church Under Fire

Chapter Two

Be Aware

May 26, 2023

“When it was day, the Jews made a plot and bound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. There were more than forty who made this conspiracy. They went to the chief priests and elders and said, ‘We have strictly bound ourselves by an oath to taste no food till we have killed Paul. Now therefore you, along with the council, give notice to the tribune to bring him down to you, as though you were going to determine his case more exactly. And we are ready to kill him before he comes near.’

Now the son of Paul's sister heard of their ambush, so he went and entered the barracks and told Paul. Paul called one of the centurions and said, ‘Take this young man to the tribune, for he has something to tell him.’ So he took him and brought him to the tribune and said, ‘Paul the prisoner called me and asked me to bring this young man to you, as he has something to say to you.’

The tribune took him by the hand, and going aside asked him privately, ‘What is it that you have to tell me?’ And he said, ‘The Jews have agreed to ask you to bring Paul down to the council tomorrow, as though they were going to inquire somewhat more closely about him. But do not be persuaded by them, for more than forty of their men are lying in ambush for him, who have bound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink till they have killed him. And now they are ready, waiting for your consent.’” (Acts 23:12-21 ESV)

Now I am going to relate this story to our lives and world and church today. For what was going on here was deceptive. It was trickery. It was a trap. For they wanted to kill Paul in order to shut him up, and possibly also in hopes that the movement he was leading would then disperse. It is kind of like what they did with Jesus, hoping that by killing him it would silence not only his voice, but that his followers would disperse and that they would not have to deal with them anymore.

But I want you to be aware that this kind of trickery is going on within the gatherings of the institutional market-driven churches of today, and it is being done by some pastors and other church leaders as a method of controlling people and situations to go the way they want them to go. And even many pastors are being trained in deception and trickery as a way to make things happen the way that suits their marketing goals and purposes.

And my husband and I were church planters twice, so we went through some of this training. And at one of our training sessions we were taught that we are to use (take advantage of) “needy people” in order to get our church plants up and running. But once our church plants were well on their way, we were instructed to get rid of the needy people, for they would weigh us down. Wow! The people in our tiny congregation were needy people. For we were ministering to the hurting, and the rejected, and the neglected.

Also my husband and I had a ministry to college students and to college-age adults out of our home for 7.5 years, from early 1999 to mid-2006. And there were times when we tried to connect this ministry to a local institutional church, because we thought that was the right thing to do. And so from 2002-2003 we partnered with a local IC (institutional church). We provided the college ministry for their congregation, and they provided us with a facility where we could meet. And at first it went well.

But Then…

I was doing some volunteer work at the church office one day when the pastor called me into his office to talk. He asked me, “Would you say that your praise band would draw in large crowds of people from the world?” I knew exactly where he was going with this, and I also knew that this was contrary to our partnership agreement. For we told him our goal in ministry, at that time, was to provide a place for young people where they could feel included, and where they could feel valued and needed and wanted.

What he said he wanted to do was to replace our band with another band, and he wanted me to talk about that with our ministry team. So, I did. And we decided to all meet with him, and we did. And when we met with him, I asked him to tell the group what he told me. But all he would say was, “I would never do that.” So I asked him, if he would never do that, then why did he ask me to ask our ministry team about doing that. But his answer remained, “I would never do that.”

So, what he was doing was a non-denial denial. He neither admitted to saying it nor did he deny saying it. He just said he would never do that. So, afterwards he and I talked more, but he still would not answer my question as to why he said what he did if he never intended to do that. And then their “Session” (of the Presbyterian Church) called me to a meeting. But they made it a prerequisite that I must admit I lied about the pastor before I could come to their meeting. But I didn’t lie. I am not the one who was being deceptive. And I had been totally submissive.

So I asked the Session if they would remove that requirement and they refused. So, I could not attend their meeting, because I would not lie. And so they put me on church discipline, which is totally against the Scriptures and the whole purpose for church discipline. But what they did, and a lawyer was one of the ones involved in this, would be like if someone accused you of a crime, but before they would give you a fair trial to determine guilt or innocence, you would be required to admit guilt. If you could (or would) not admit guilt, then to jail you went, no trial at all.

Do you see how absolutely evil what they did was? That lawyer knew better than that, and so did that pastor. I think the Session did not really know what was going on, in my opinion, but they were just acting on the word of the pastor and of the lawyer. But they had to know that what they were doing was wrong. For you don’t make someone admit guilt before you even give them a chance to be heard. That is criminal! But so many of these ICs are being taught to use deception and trickery in order to get people to do what they want them to do, and/or in order to get rid of the undesirables.

Bottom line, we pulled our ministry out of that IC, and we took it back to our home, which is where I believe the Lord wanted it to be anyway. And the reason the Lord is having me share this with you is so you will be aware of the kinds of trickery and deception and manipulations which are going on in many of these ICs which are market-driven and which are trying to draw in large crowds of people from the world. Since I was not on board with what they were up to, they found a way to silence me. But they lost access to our ministry to college students as a result. So, keep your eyes and ears open.

P.S. January 29, 2025: This (above) took place 22 years ago. Recently I had the occasion to ask this same pastor if I came to his church if he would welcome me. At first he "beat around the bush," so I asked him again, and there was no response. So, the answer to me was "No!" I would not be welcome if I came to his church.

Link to the whole book:

The Church Under Fire Book (edited).pdf

Video Recording of the Above:

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The Church Under Fire Pt 2
An Original Work / November 4, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love

I have not watched the video yet but I look forward to it. Sorry to hear of all your tough experiences but thank you for sharing them and your thoughts on how churches should be more biblical. The warnings that scared me concerning the church are from I Samuel, where the sins of Eli's sons had God replacing the priests with ones that were of his heart and mind. The sins of those sons who were priests basically were overcharging for their duties, a lack of discipline in children and sexual immorality. I got that on my heart right when covid came out but there has been quite a number of high profile departures in the ministry. I don't think the money issues of churches have yet to be addressed but I think that is soon to come.
I never thought about churches attempting to use a process similar to gentrification to allegedly step up the "quality" of people in their congregations. Such dealings clearly are contrary to scripture. I am glad you were able to overcome and share that part of your story too. God bless all your writing and other ministry pursuits.

BPPLEE · 2025-11-05T15:24:25-0600

Always in His Presence said:
no - the citizen of those cities don't deserve that - even if it is cause of the day - why punish them for what the politicians want?

If that's the case then the citizens will vote the politicians out

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Here are 6 'Beautiful Bill' tax changes that will benefit wealthy Americans and businesses​

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The Didache

The Letter of Barnabas

Ignatius of Antioch

Justin Martyr

Here are 6 'Beautiful Bill' tax changes that will benefit wealthy Americans and businesses

Lower tax brackets

Pass-through exemption for business owners

Bonus depreciation

Higher federal deductible for state and local taxes

Higher exemption for estate and gift tax

Higher exclusion on some capital gains