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Apple Sky · 2025-07-12T01:14:19-0500

SimplyMe said:
I'm not quite sure I understand your disbelief about Elon Musk putting a "car" into space. I put car in quotes because, while it had been one of his original Tesla Roadsters, before launching it he removed the motors, the battery, and anything else that wasn't needed or would cause an issue in space.

He was doing a rocket booster test and, as such, needed some type of payload to launch, and decided the best thing to do would be both a huge vanity project, as well as a great advertisement for his car company. Since the car wasn't going to be drivable again anyway, he mounted a type of selfie stick to the car, as well as several other cameras, so he could show video from the car while it was in space. Of course, the car no longer communicates, as the power modules were depleted. At the same time, it can still be tracked from Earth and, in something of an embarrassing incident, the Minor Planet Center accidentally labeled it as an asteroid (which they've since deleted).

Yes, OK each to his own. ^_^

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-12T01:13:38-0500

Fervent said:
It's not the criticisms that lead me to that assessment.

That's a bit of a different animal from your previous criticisms, and there's certainly some merit in such. But we've gotten a bit far afield from questions of what "human flourishing" means and how such things reflect on ethics in general and how to respond to transgenderism's attack on distinct objective categories.

Why does this require such a strong response? To what end? I honestly don’t see how engaging in this debate in that way really builds anyone up or advances genuine understanding.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T01:11:25-0500

Rose_bud said:
Yes please

It seems you have your profile limited, so you'll have to white list me in order for me to PM you

Fervent · 2025-07-12T01:04:34-0500

Rose_bud said:
It would be interesting to hear the process and what you learnt along the way, people understand that there is some convergence between mental health and theology, but I think lived experiences can shed so much light. Because it may not be what we think, my sister was diagnosed with bi-polar and had a few visits, now imagine what it was like for her with our Pentecostal background...

If you're really interested, I could PM you.

And I can only imagine, as my background is about the polar opposite of Pentecostalism...cold, austere, doctrinal, Baptist.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T01:00:00-0500

FireDragon76 said:
No, it's somebody stripped of illusions.

It's not the criticisms that lead me to that assessment.

FireDragon76 said:
What has the American love of pragmatic, rationalized efficiency done? It's destroying the planet, it's reducing human life in all its beauty and richness to an impoverished performance of consumerism, isolation, and mental illness. And many metrics of human flourishing back up that analysis. This isn't merely aesthetics, its a failure of human vocation.

That's a bit of a different animal from your previous criticisms, and there's certainly some merit in such. But we've gotten a bit far afield from questions of what "human flourishing" means and how such things reflect on ethics in general and how to respond to transgenderism's attack on distinct objective categories.

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:58:01-0500

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:57:39-0500

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:57:23-0500

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:57:03-0500

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:56:47-0500

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-12T00:55:25-0500

Fervent said:
This strikes me as the assessment of someone who has lived the negative of the West, and developed a bit of idealized fantasy about other modes of living.

No, it's somebody stripped of illusions.

What has the American love of pragmatic, rationalized efficiency done? It's destroying the planet, it's reducing human life in all its beauty and richness to an impoverished performance of consumerism, isolation, and mental illness. And many metrics of human flourishing back up that analysis. This isn't merely aesthetics, its a failure of human vocation.

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:50:44-0500

They say Kings in the Middle East are allowed to have 4 wives.

Did one of those Kings ever have a Christian wife ?

Love365 · 2025-07-12T00:45:19-0500

If someone wins the lottery,
they might be more likely to donate money to the Catholic Church,
if they start making women priests, bishops, and cardinals.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T00:44:49-0500

Rose_bud said:
I've not been in a mental hospital,

I've made several trips, all at least partially related to theological issues.

Rose_bud said:
but I can surely say I have been tempted to know the how, the why etc

A common temptation.

Rose_bud said:
. A good read and eye opener was the "The sin of certainty" by Peter Enns.

I'll have to add that to my to read list.

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-12T00:44:09-0500

As others have said, don't take it too seriously. Meekness is simply basic sanity in this world. This isn't about self-abasement, it's about staying out of the way of pettiness and foolish pretensions.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T00:42:48-0500

FireDragon76 said:
Life isn't a problem to solve, but an unfolding story to inhabit. Conflict, paradox, mystery, they are all part of life. Take this bit of relational wisdom as an example from the Scriptures:

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" (Prov 27:17).

Western culture, with its idolatry of abstract philosophy and technical efficiency, resists this lived dynamic. We are now living amid what could be called peak ideological colonization—where systems, categories, and rigid frameworks crowd out the one thing truly needed: an imagination rooted in Christ-shaped love.

This love doesn’t seek to control or reduce, but to embrace mystery and nurture flourishing. The rigid categories so often wielded to limit human agency are just one symptom of a broader cultural problem—a devotion to system over story, technique over tenderness, control over grace.

This strikes me as the assessment of someone who has lived the negative of the West, and developed a bit of idealized fantasy about other modes of living.

RandyPNW · 2025-07-12T00:42:28-0500

trophy33 said:
While it is daytime, we must doa the works of Him who sent Me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
J 9:4-5

When Jesus left, He sent the Holy Spirit. And there is church and a lot of people are doing good works. What does it mean that "night is coming, when no one can work"?

I think Jesus intended to imply a deeper meaning here. Obviously, without electricity or lots of candles when it is night people can't see to work.

So Jesus indicated that he was a kind of spiritual light. With him nearby we can work. When he left his light was no longer available.

Fortunately, Jesus left the Holy Spirit to replace his presence with us. Still, we can only operate when the Spirit opens the doors for us. That's the lesson we may have to learn if we are to be effective models for Jesus to this world.

And for those in ministry, they have to absolutely be led in the way to go, in order to produce well. We have to know that without the Lord's help we can do nothing.

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-12T00:37:29-0500

Fervent said:
That understates the practical issues involved.

Life isn't a problem to solve, but an unfolding story to inhabit. Conflict, paradox, mystery, they are all part of life. Take this bit of relational wisdom as an example from the Scriptures:

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" (Prov 27:17).

Western culture, with its idolatry of abstract philosophy and technical efficiency, resists this lived dynamic. We are now living amid what could be called peak ideological colonization—where systems, categories, and rigid frameworks crowd out the one thing truly needed: an imagination rooted in Christ-shaped love.

This love doesn’t seek to control or reduce, but to embrace mystery and nurture flourishing. The rigid categories so often wielded to limit human agency are just one symptom of a broader cultural problem—a devotion to system over story, technique over tenderness, control over grace.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-12T00:19:19-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes I agree that all will be humble before God and not all are going to be part of the kingdom but will be subjects of that kingdom.
No one is burned forever, but the refining that will take place is going to be painful but its purpose if for refinement not punitive.
The big difference between UR understanding is that we know that God pursues all his humanity and that the death of the body is not the end, Jesus seeks the lost until they are found. We believe that God doesn't stop loving his creation just because they didn't get it while in a fallen temporary body that is blinded by sin, he keeps loving until all see him for who he truly is, when that happens no human can outlast God, they will all bow as everyone will and see who they really are, a child of God, who died so that we could be with him forever.

It’s called eternal PUNISHMENT for a reason.

“This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the PENALTY (diké) of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Diké means penalty

“These will go away into eternal punishment, (kolasis) but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Kolasis means punishment

You can claim that God’s punishment isn’t punitive but the scriptures say the exact opposite.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T00:18:48-0500

FireDragon76 said:
It's messy and difficult but it's only "ambiguous" if we treat love as an intellectual task, a puzzle to solve, divorced from its relational and incarnational nature.

That understates the practical issues involved.

FireDragon76 said:
I'm really pointing towards something more like Native American or Eastern Orthodox spirituality and ways of being in the world, but one that also recognizes insights from western modernity. Where our primary orientation is noetic and relational rather than focusing on the discursive intellect as our primary way of being. The mind serves the heart, not the other way around.

I think there's more of a holistic challenge rather than swinging in that direction entirely, though there is something to be said about the disordered priorities that have developed from overreliance on philosophical approaches.

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-12T00:14:40-0500

Fervent said:
It depends on how we define "human flourishing"...as that is quite an ambiguous phrase.

Love isn't an intellectual task, a puzzle to solve, divorced from its relational and incarnational nature.

I'm really pointing towards something more like Native American or Eastern Orthodox spirituality and ways of being in the world, but one that also recognizes insights from western modernity. Where our primary orientation is noetic and relational rather than focusing on the discursive intellect as our primary way of being. The mind serves the heart, not the other way around.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T00:14:19-0500

Rose_bud said:
...now I'm just super curious...

It was The Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by John of Damascus...which God confronted me about my pursuit of trying to figure out how He thinks and ended up putting me in the mental hospital.

Douggg · 2025-07-12T00:11:14-0500

The beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation 17, 12, 13 is the Roman Empire.

Revelation 17 beast with the seven heads and ten horns is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 - the Roman Empire - it's status at the time of John, 1st century.

In Revelation 12, the fourth kingdom the Roman Empire (manifested in the end times as the EU) - its status with 7 years before Jesus returns. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, plus Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time total the 7 years.

In Revelation 13, the fourth kingdom the Roman Empire (manifested in the end times as the EU) - its status with 42 months before Jesus returns. Revelation 13:5, the 42 months rule of the beast-king.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 17 (status first century)
7 heads - no crowns - the prophecy of the 7 kings incomplete. king 7 yet to come.
10 horns - no crowns - the prophecy of the 10 kings not started.

Revelation 12 (status with 7 years before Jesus's return)
7 heads - crowns - the prophecy of the 7 kings complete, king 7 the little horn person in power.
10 horns - no crowns - the prophecy of the 10 kings started, but no crowns since the little horn person has not become the beast-king yet.

Revelation 13 (status with 42 months before Jesus's return)
7 heads - no crowns - no crowns because the little horn person has been assassinated, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings.
10 horns -crowns - to rule with the beast-king (the little horn person brought back to life) for the 42 months.

Fervent · 2025-07-12T00:10:20-0500

FireDragon76 said:
It's really what we "do" with objective categories as concepts that is my issue. If we use the notion of objective categories to limit human autonomy or agency in a way that's incompatible with human flourishing of individuals, that is gravely immoral, no matter how much it comports with a metaphysical system's vision. In my understanding, the mystery, the irreducible nature and worth of personhood is fundamental to Christian ethics.

It depends on how we define "human flourishing"...as that is quite an ambiguous phrase.

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