The question of who should stabilise Gaza has become a geopolitical chess game. Ankara is pushing into the power vacuum, Israel is warning of a historic miscalculation, and the American president faces a decision that will shape the region for years to come.

In recent weeks, the debate about Gaza's future has taken on a dynamic that goes far beyond tactical agreements. For Israel, nothing less than the security of its own population is at stake. For Recep Tayyip Erdogan, it is an opportunity to finally demonstrate his regional claim to leadership in military terms. And for President Donald Trump, it is a choice between two partners who both want something from him but do not pursue the same goals.

According to several Israeli security circles, the decision is imminent and will likely be made during Netanyahu's visit to Washington. But while Israel is interested in stability and predictable control, Erdogan is pursuing a completely different concept. His vision for the region extends far beyond Gaza. It includes reshaping the political order of the Middle East, weakening Iranian spheres of influence and establishing a Turkish power bloc that would unite Gaza, Ramallah, large parts of Syria and Sunni movements under one ideological umbrella.

The Turkish president sees his country as the future leader of the Sunni world. His affinity for the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood is well known, as is his political activism in the shadow of regional instability. In Syria, he has quietly established a network of newly formed militias, some of which have structures that deliberately resemble extremist organisations. According to his plan, these forces are intended to fulfil three objectives: to push back Iran, weaken the Kurds and create a permanent threat on the Israeli border.

For Erdogan, the stationing of Turkish troops in Gaza would be a triumph. It would not only restrict Israel's operational freedom, but also position Turkey as a protective power in the Muslim-Arab world. His proposal not to disarm Hamas' armed wing for the time being also shows that he is not concerned with stability, but with levers of power. An armed, reorganised and technically upgraded Hamas offshoot would be a means of pressure that Ankara could use at will.

From Israel's perspective, such a scenario would dramatically worsen the strategic situation. Attacks from Gaza would effectively be attacks on Turkish soil as soon as Turkish soldiers were stationed there. Any Israeli military action could thus lead to a military conflict with a NATO member. This thought alone is enough to imagine the risks involved.

The US is the only player that can stop this development. President Trump tends to value personal loyalty more highly than geopolitical subtleties. This is precisely what makes the situation so delicate. Erdogan recognised early on that a direct line to the Oval Office could open doors for him. At the same time, Netanyahu is staking a lot on this relationship because he knows that a visible Turkish presence in Gaza would be a strategic disaster.

From Israel's point of view, there is only one realistic alternative: Egypt, flanked by moderate Arab states. Cairo has the experience, legitimacy and ability to enforce security without opening up new fronts. This option is uncomfortable for Israel because it could potentially re-establish the PA in Gaza. However, compared to the Turkish presence, it is clearly the lesser evil in terms of security policy.

The price of making the wrong choice would be high. A Turkish military force in Gaza would make Ankara a direct factor in any future Israeli operation. And it would give Erdogan an additional platform from which to expand his regional leadership claims, at the expense of Israel and its room for manoeuvre.

In the end, the American president faces a decision that has less to do with military logic than with political proximity. Netanyahu has staked everything on convincing Trump. Erdogan is staking everything on courting him. And whatever Trump ultimately decides will define Israel's security architecture for many years to come.

stevevw said:

You should know those lol. Like the Freedoms we have come to know, democracy, Rule of Law, meritocracy, human rights ect.

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All of which Omar supports. No wonder Trump hates her.

stevevw said:

But mostly I feel the whole fraud thing was under her watch.

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She is in the US Congress; she works in Washington, D. C. so your feelings seem more informed by prejudice than by facts, as you have given no facts to support your feeling.

stevevw said:

She was closely linked to a lot of this.

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How so? Because she's from there?

stevevw said:

I am not saying she did anything wrong.

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No? She didn't do anything wrong but "the whole fraud thing was under her watch"?

stevevw said:

But that her attention was more on her own people and not the good of the US.

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You do know that, unlike the president who is supposed to represent the entire nation, congresscritters are elected specifically to represent their constituents?

stevevw said:

Perhaps like Waltz they seen something going on but turned a blind eye because they were afraid of upsetting people.

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Walz' administration caught the fraud and turned it over to the feds. Perhaps your accusations are not founded in any facts.

BCP1928 said:

And Christianity began to incorporate more Greek philosophy into it's theoogy. Who said it disappeared?

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Well you seem to think that the same beliefs and ideas that Christians were following during the early church somehow disappeared. They are the same beliefs in the spirit and the flesh, the material world and the immaterial realm.

These beliefs did not come from the Greek. They are uniquely Christian beliefs. They may have been influenced by Hellinistic thought as far as how they were expressed in the language and meanings used. But the fundemental belief is uniquely Christian and the only truth of the Mind and Body problem.

All other concepts in attempts to explain this stem from our knowledge of God and His invisible aspects we see in the world through His creation.

BCP1928 said:

Of course, since it's an unfalsifiable proposition there are many ways to speculate about it.

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Yes and Pauls and Johns and the bibles teachings are the truth when it comes to this natural human inclination to believe in spirits, disembodied souls and a mind that is beyond the physical brain. And you don't have to be a religious person to believe this. We do it naturally/ But we will place our own ideas about what that is.

BCP1928 said:

Back to your perpetual whine and big lie: "Science days no God is required."

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I never said that. Thought its a logical follow on philosophically. There is a fine line between methological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism.

I said that when people use science to beat down belief in God or any transcedent idea they are stepping from science to a metaphysical belief epistemically that claims there is only one way to know reality (matter and particles). That this is an ontological truth.

By the fact that its using science beyond its parameter to defeat belief. Thus one belief defeating another belief. Which is not science or at least cannot be verified by science.

SabbathBlessings said:

Thats why we should go by what God says, He was very clear about activities we should be doing on His holy day. Isa58:13 Lev23:3 Exo20:8-11 Luke4:16 1John2:6 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 etc etc.

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I agree completely which is why I rest on God's day of rest and do not add unscriptural nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities in violation of resting.

stevevw said:

Why would you have contempt for MAGA. Was not this the majority that won the election. Are you saying you have contyempt for MAGA supporters.

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No, just MAGA policies.

stevevw said:

This is the very identity politics I am talking about.

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Yes, the politics which allows you, an Austrailian, to dictate what "identities" people in America are supposed to have.

FredVB said:

I think the conundrum I posted is only so for literalist views of anything in Bible passages that are as likely symbolic. The book of Revelation is full of symbolic passages, and much of what will be said of what is in any afterlife would be, as any of that goes outside of experiences any have in this world. This applies to the afterlife of the saved, too. Eye has not seen, not ear heard, not have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love God. 1 Corinthians 2:9

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That, my friend, is actually yet another aspect which has caused all manner of division within Christianity. The interpretation of Revelation is a minefield, indeed. That there are very obviously many things in it which are symbolic and allegorical is obvious to everyone except to those at the very extreme end of literalism. The difficulty is determining whether or not passages which could be taken at face value are, in fact, literal or symbolic or even both, has vexed Bible commentators since, at least, the earliest centuries of Christianity. It is no small difficulty to overcome to avoid reading into the passage one's own extrabiblical thoughts and beliefs. A classic case is the woman in chapter 12 who, according to Roman Catholics, is none other to Mary, but for Protestants is the personification of God's wife, Israel, who gave birth to her son, the Church.

BrotherJJ said:

Metaphorically?
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

(PARSING: This verse cites, Tribes of Jacob = Israel & his children. Next 4 verses God breathed scripture clearly names Israel/Jacobs 12 sons/children.)

The saints that rise from the grave (after Jesus) in Matt 27:52-53 & are seen by many are OT elect.

Jesus rises then 50 days later comes the Acts 2 Pentecost, where the Church via the Holy Spirit outpouring in born. So, I don't see how 1 Cor 11:2, where Paul is speaking to believers in Corinth, is applicable to the OP.

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My understanding.....

Revelation uses numbers in two main ways to make symbolic points.
First, there's Biblical Numerology, which is just spotting the consistent, traditional meaning of numbers used all through the Bible. These numbers are metaphors in themselves! For example, 7 is always shorthand for perfection or divine completion, and 12 means God's people (like the 12 tribes or 12 apostles). So, when you see the 144,000, it's not a literal census count; it's a perfect symbolic team: 12 (God's people) \times 12 (completeness) \times 1,000 (fullness/vastness) = the entire, perfectly sealed number of the redeemed. That's pure symbolism!
Second, you have Gematria, which is a little different and acts more like a secret code. It's when a number is used as a numerical key to unlock the name of a person or thing. The best example is 666. To the original readers, adding up the numerical values of the Greek or Hebrew letters in "Neron Caesar" would equal 666, making it a very pointed, coded nickname for the ultimate human persecutor. So, 144,000 is a metaphor for completeness, while 666 is a code for an individual tyrant.

BobRyan said:

from: https://x.com/WesleyLHuff/status/1998190919539892630

Quoting Wes Huff:

"I’m seeing a lot of people attempting to critique it. I hold to ECT, but I do understand the topic of conditional immortality and I have yet to see anyone actually give a rebuttal that shows me they’ve interacted with the arguments and biblical reasoning from the other side. To condemn conditionalism/annihilationism as heresy is to say that John Stott, Edward Fudge, F. F. Bruce, potentially even Athanasius of Alexandria, are all heretics. This is, with all due respect, ridiculous. While the position might be unorthodox it is not heresy. If you actually want to interact with someone who knows the topic reach out to my friends
@datechris and/or @DanPaterson7
. Both are solid, fair minded, well educated and articulate..."

Texts like Ezek 28:28:14-19 and Matt 10:28 come up in those discussions as we might expect.

But I think Wes Huff's list of Bible scholars is interesting
John Stott,
Edward Fudge,
F. F. Bruce,
potentially even Athanasius of Alexandria

Dale Moody,
Clark Pinnock

could be added to that list

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I’m undecided on this. I have a book, 4 views on Hell and there are convincing arguments for all 4 views

SabbathBlessings said:

That doing well like helping the sick or eating was never a sin on the Sabbath as Jesus said plainly, but we can still do evil on the Sabbath by profaning it Mark3:4 Neh13:17. The Pharisees were not keeping God's Sabbath, they were keeping their own man-made sabbath, adding many rules to it that God didn't. Sadly we do the same thing by making God's Sabbath and holy day just like any other day, when Jesus did not. Luke4:16 John15:10

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I agree entirely. There are some folks who have added all manner of nineteenth-century American Protestant activities as being essential to resting on God's day of rest.

BCP1928 said:

What "long held values" are those?

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You should know those lol. Like the Freedoms we have come to know, democracy, Rule of Law, meritocracy, human rights ect.

BCP1928 said:

No, what we are saying is that what she has said and done do not show hatred for the US. Certainly no one has posted anything in this thread which conveys such hatred toward the US. She has certainly shown contempt for MAGA, which I congratulate her for.

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Why would you have contempt for MAGA. Was not this the majority that won the election. Are you saying you have contyempt for MAGA supporters.

This is the very identity politics I am talking about.

I think the conundrum I posted is only so for literalist views of anything in Bible passages that are as likely symbolic. The book of Revelation is full of symbolic passages, and much of what will be said of what is in any afterlife would be, as any of that goes outside of experiences any have in this world. This applies to the afterlife of the saved, too. Eye has not seen, not ear heard, not have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love God. 1 Corinthians 2:9

keras said:

What is really obvious, is how Jewish Israel is once again is the same apostate and God/Jesus rejection condition as twice before.

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Today's modern mostly secular state of Israel is nothing really to do with any of this.

Now, back to the focus of these visions.

Given that the prophets specifically said BABYLON was the enemy, and that Israel would be under BABYLON’s captivity and RETURNED from BABYLON within 70 years, we don’t have any choice. Most of these prophesies are about Babylon’s captivity of Israel - and then Babylon’s judgement and defeat by God. (With cosmic language of the heavens shaking from the clash - classic cosmic symbols of conflict.)

JEREMIAH 25:11-12 and JEREMIAH 29:10 just don’t give us any other choice.
2 CHRONICLES 36:21 says it HAPPENED! It confirms Jeremiah’s prophecies were fulfilled.

"...to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."

DANIEL 9:2 says:

"...I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years."

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Isaiah, wrote 150 years before the Babylonian exile. He names the specific Persian king who would end the exile and let Israel go home!
ISAIAH 44:28

"who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, and he shall fulfill all My pleasure'; even saying to Jerusalem, 'You shall be rebuilt,' and to the temple, 'Your foundation shall be laid.'"

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ISAIAH 45:1

"Thus says the LORD to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings, to open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut:"

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It’s so specific Jewish historian Josephus apparently had a theory that Cyrus was SHOWN these Isaiah prophecies, and decided he’d better comply unless he make Yahweh angry!
(Or so I’ve head - don’t quote me on this - can’t be bothered looking up another text after the work above.)


You haven't really considered these prophecies in their historical context, have you?

The Nicholas Cage movie "Knowing" came out a year before your "vision" in the Middle East in 2010.
I wonder what subconscious Hollywood influences acted on your "vision" from back then, hey?
Let me help you.

These sun and moon and stars verses are not actually the celestial astronomical events you want them to be.

They are well-known symbolic descriptions of battle and the clash of ancient empires.
That's just what they are.

You're welcome.

Stopped_lurking said:

The scottish hill forts seems to be from around the same age. Sacsayhuamán seems to be even younger. Just give me the articles published in relevant journals, peer-review is important to me.

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The orthodox narrative that these ancient ruins in Peru are all from the Inca and other later cultures is false and theres no evidence. In fact the evidence shows that there are at least three different cultures possibly going back 1,000s of years.

The ancient Purvians themselves speak of the ancient peoples who created the megalithic works and that they found them. Some apeak of the gods creating them and others of giants.

We see the most ancient style at the base which is called Hanan Pacha. It is usualy calved out of the bedrock and looks very old and eroded. The next style is Uran Pacha which are the famous pillow like polygon large blocks. The final style is Ukun Pacha which is the Inca style which is rougher, smaller and often tries to copy the earlier works and repair it.


Hanan Pacha Uran Pacha Ukun Pacha


Here are the two later styles together. You will see a lot of examples of how the Inca tried to repair and reuse the older works and the two different styles are contrasting. Just like with the Egyptians and how the later dynasties reused earlier works.

Its just that theorthodoxy attributes everything to the Inca when they clearly were made by an earlier culture. Sometimes you can see the three styles on the one site. In fact just over to the side in this example are the examples of Hanan Pacha. Which by the way also looks like it was hit by some disaster as its usually broken up and thrown all over the place.

Benaiah468 said:

The prophetic writings of the Bible not only foresee an end-time restoration of the state of Israel, but also announce a restoration of Israel's neighbouring countries.

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A visit to Egypt can open Christians' eyes to the amazing things G-d is doing there. He has great plans for this ancient nation, also with regard to Israel.

After Israel, Egypt is mentioned more often than any other nation in the Bible. It is a special country whose culture has had a far-reaching influence and dates back even further than the history of Israel. Alongside Babylon, Egypt was the first world empire to emerge after the Flood. In the centuries that followed, it was to have a strong influence on Jewish history. The Exodus from Egypt shaped Israel's national identity more than any other event. Egypt was also the only country besides Israel where Jesus lived. Accordingly, it has a rich church history. The Coptic Church is possibly the oldest existing church in the world. Its name comes from the Arabic word for Egypt, qubt, signifying the native Egyptian Christians. No wonder, then, that the Hebrew prophets predict a glorious end-time story for Egypt.

But let's start at the beginning.

The biblical history of Egypt begins immediately after the Flood. Egypt (or Mizraim) is introduced as one of Noah's grandsons and the son of Ham (Genesis 10:6). When G-d called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldeans, he travelled to the Promised Land. But shortly afterwards, a famine broke out in Canaan and Abram ‘went down into Egypt’ (Genesis 12:10). The magnificent pyramids of Giza, the enormous stone structures that still puzzle engineers today, had already been built a few centuries before Abram's arrival. When Abram and Sarai left Egypt, they brought ‘menservants, and maidservants’ back with them to Canaan (Genesis 12:16; 16:1). One of them handmaids was Hagar, who bore Abram a son, Ishmael. He was the most important progenitor of the Arab tribes in the Middle East.

Isaac was also tempted to flee famine in Egypt, but the Lord instructed him to remain in the land: ‘I will be with thee, and will bless thee;’ (Genesis 26:3) But Isaac's son Jacob died in Egypt, as did the twelve patriarchs of the tribes of Israel. Joseph, one of these patriarchs, even became prime minister of the Egyptian empire. His wise rule saved not only his family, but the whole world.

In Egypt, Israel became a great nation with more than a million people. According to the rabbis, Israel only became a nation during the Exodus from Egypt, when G-d brought his people to Mount Sinai ‘with an outstretched arm’. Because of its system of slavery and oppression, the Bible refers to Egypt from then on as a sinful nation representing human strength and endeavours that cannot help (Isa 31:1-3). The Book of Revelation refers to the fallen state of earthly Jerusalem as ‘Sodom and Egypt’ (Rev 11:8).

Throughout history, there has always been a strong Jewish community in Egypt. The Bible reports that Jews fled to Egypt during the Babylonian occupation of Israel (Jer 40:6-8; 43:5-7). During the period of Greek rule, there are reports of a further influx of Jews into Egypt. When Alexander the Great founded the coastal city of Alexandria in 332 BCE, a significant portion of the population was Jewish. The historian Josephus reports that the Jewish population in Alexandria and throughout Egypt numbered up to one million. Their proportion was so large that Alexandria became a centre of Jewish thought and philosophy. Philo (20 BCE-50 CE) was considered one of the most influential thinkers of his time. Josephus writes that Onia, the son of the high priest, even had a replica of the Jerusalem Temple built on the island of Elephantine in the Nile. The building was destroyed by Titus in 71 CE, shortly after the Herodian Temple in Jerusalem had been demolished, to prevent a new centre of Jewish worship from emerging.

In Alexandria, something else happened that contributed significantly to the spread of Christianity: the Tanakh (OT) was translated into another language for the first time, Greek. The Egyptian ruler Ptolemy II commissioned the translation because he believed that the Hebrew scriptures should be accessible in the legendary Library of Alexandria. The use of the Septuagint (LXX) was widespread in the early Church. Many cross-references to passages from the OT are quoted directly from the Septuagint in the NT, which was written in Greek. The significance of the Bible being translated into one of the most widely used languages cannot be overestimated. Perhaps only Luther's translation of the Bible into German almost 1800 years later can match this, a language that was also widely spoken at the time. The Septuagint, which originated in Egypt, was the book from which Paul and all the apostles preached as they travelled throughout the world.

When Jesus was born, he in a sense relived the history of Israel with Egypt. Like his ancestors, he had to flee to Egypt on the instructions of an angel and did not return until years later, thus fulfilling Hosea's prophecy: ‘Out of Egypt have I called my son’ (Mt 2:15, quoting Hos 11:1). It is impressive to see the richness that Coptic tradition still associates with the various places where the Holy Family stayed and lived. Most of these places have a connection to the strong Jewish presence in ancient Egypt.

When the gospel spread throughout the world decades later, it quickly reached Egypt, because Jews from Egypt were also present when the unusual miracles of Pentecost occurred in Jerusalem, they were able to bear witness to the events (Acts 2:10). According to tradition, the evangelist Mark became bishop in Alexandria. He may even have been the founder of the world's very first ‘Christian’ Bible school. The oldest papyrus fragment containing texts from the NT was found in Egypt, the Ryland P52 fragment, which may date from the first century. When the First Council of Nicaea later decided to change the Passover feast to Easter, it was the Church of the East, led by Alexandria, that resisted this new anti-Jewish law of Emperor Constantine the longest. But eventually Egypt too was infected by the anti-Semitic tendencies of the Church, and the Christian rulers of Alexandria expelled all Jews from the city.

All this suggests that G-d has uniquely placed His hand on the land of Egypt throughout history. Egypt became the means of salvation for Israel, but also experienced G-d's judgement because they so often mistreated G-d's people. Yet He always seemed to pay special attention to Egypt. Like no other prophet, Isaiah foresaw G-d's plans for Egypt in chapter 19 and thus for the entire Middle East.

Larniavc said:

Oof. Pointing out the one has black friends only ever happens in a very particular kind of conversation.

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Yes, truthful conversations

stevevw said:

I don't want to get into a competition on what Omar has said. Are you saying she has not said or done things that show she hates the US, whites and Jews. In the language and narratives she uses.

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No, what we are saying is that what she has said and done do not show hatred for the US. Certainly no one has posted anything in this thread which conveys such hatred toward the US. She has certainly shown contempt for MAGA, which I congratulate her for.

Hentenza said:

Nah. Is direct and to the point. Can you find another mainstream translation that injects the “if” and quotes Psalm 95 incorrectly as the KJV does (Other than the NKJV of course). Oh wait, the NKJV fixed the KJV errors. Go figure.

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No it is a subjective comment based on feelings. Nothing more than a "they say so, so it must be true".

Sadly, translators have ignored what is written and translated their thoughts or feelings rather than what the Lord our God intended. And now you are.

Because there is only one way to translate the Greek correctly to which the New Testament is from. Both the Byzantine Text type and the Alexandrian read the same in respect to the word in question, "IF". First the TR from of the Byzantine text type.

Heb 4:5 καὶ And ἐν In τούτῳ This ' Place ' πάλιν Again Εἰ If εἰσελεύσονται They Shall Enter εἰς Into τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου My Rest.

Here is the WH from the Alexandrian:
Heb 4:5 και εν τουτω παλιν ει εισελευσονται εις την καταπαυσιν μου

Here is how the word in question is defined. First from Thayer then from Strongs.

- Original: εἰ
- Transliteration: Ei
- Phonetic: i
- Definition:
1. if, whether
- Origin: a primary particle of conditionality
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Conjunction

- Strong's: A primary particle of conditionality;
if whether that etc.: - forasmuch as if that ([al-]) though whether. Often used in connection or composition with other particles especially as in G1489 G1490 G1499 G1508 G1509 G1512 G1513 G1536 and G1537. See also G1437.

So why translate the Hebrew from Psalm 95 that way? Because when the writer thought of Psalm 95 HE thought of the Greek LXX which translates the Hebrew the same way as does the TR and the WH. Here is that translation. I will put the TR and the WH below it so you can see for yourself.

The LXX:
Ps 95:11 ὡς ὤμοσα ἐν τῇ ὀργῇ μου Εἰ εἰσελεύσονται εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου.

The TR: Heb 4:5 καὶ And ἐν In τούτῳ This ' Place ' πάλιν Again Εἰ If εἰσελεύσονται They Shall Enter εἰς Into τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου My Rest.

Here is the WH from the Alexandrian:
Heb 4:5 και εν τουτω παλιν ει εισελευσονται εις την καταπαυσιν μου

And no, we are not defending the KJV. The KJV has errors also. We are here for the sake of truth. As was said and everyone including you can see from the information provided above, you are using a bad translation in respect to this verse. Not that big of a deal really. We all do it. Just recognize it and make changes in your thought process and move on.

stevevw said:

The so called Dark Ages is a conspiracy in itself lol. Christianity was continuing to grow, new Kingdoms emerging and other developements. Christianity did not just disappear lol.

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And Christianity began to incorporate more Greek philosophy into it's theoogy. Who said it disappeared?

stevevw said:

What was Paul talking about when he mentions the spirit and flesh. Same thing. Christian belief and thought were steeped in the mind and body duality. John especially elaborates on this as well with the concept of the Word becoming flesh. The Word being something that existed before all physical reality. It gave birth to physical reality.

This was well known by the early Christians.

I disagree. Maybe not in the Greek form but every big the same concept of a spirit or something with a soul and Mind that moves on beyond the physical word. Christian teachings and beliefs are full of such ideas.

Like I said that does not matter. The important thing is that by rejecting my take and supporting someone elses take or the possibility of someone elses take on what is the Mind and Body divide is still supporting that there is such a thing regardless.

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Of course, since it's an unfalsifiable proposition there are many ways to speculate about it.

stevevw said:

This is supporting what I just said. That one way or another humans believe in something beyond the material world. Which shows its a natural part of being humans. Which shows that ,aterial science cannot claim the ontological truth about what is reality.

Which means they can describe what they think happened and that no God was required. But really thats just a belief just as much as Christians believe God is the creator.

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Back to your perpetual whine and big lie: "Science days no God is required."

1. God turned away and sided with the Romans​

Jewish War 5.9.4 (§412)

“I suppose that God is fled out of his sanctuary, and stands on the side of those with whom you are now at war.”

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2. God caused the Temple to be burned​

Josephus insists the destruction was not accidental, even though Titus did not initially command it.

Jewish War 6.4.3 (§250–252)

“As for that house, God had for certain long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages.
It was, I suppose, owing to the divine providence that the fire was kindled, and that the Temple was burnt.”

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3. God rejected sacrifices and purity​

Jewish War 5.1.3 (§19)

“Neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.
They confessed what was true, that God was angry at them, and turned away his face from them.”

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4. Internal Judean violence as the chief cause​

Jewish War 4.6.3 (§318–319)

“I venture to affirm that the sedition destroyed the city, and that the Romans afforded it no small assistance.
For had they not been divided among themselves, they could never have been conquered.”

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5. False prophets as instruments of judgment​

Jewish War 6.5.2 (§285–286)

“These false prophets persuaded the people to expect deliverance from God, while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that so plainly foretold their desolation.”

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6. Josephus’ ultimate theological summary​

Jewish War 6.10.1 (§442)

“I suppose that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or else have been destroyed by thunder, as the country of Sodom was formerly.”

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1. False prophets promising signs in the Temple (during the siege)​

Jewish War 6.5.2 (§285–287)

“A false prophet was the occasion of these people’s destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get up upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.
Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes.
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation.”

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2. False prophets and impostors leading people to death​

Jewish War 2.13.4 (§258–259)

“For there was a certain sort of men that were innovators, and who deceived and deluded the people under pretence of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.
But Felix thought this procedure was to be the beginning of a revolt; so he sent some horsemen and footmen, both armed, who destroyed a great number of them.”

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3. Theudas – dividing the Jordan by command​

Antiquities 20.5.1 (§97–98)

“Now it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it.
Many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem.”

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4. The Egyptian prophet – walls falling at his command​

Jewish War 2.13.5 (§261–262)

“There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretence of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government.
These prevailed with the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that God would there show them the signals of liberty.”

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Antiquities 20.8.6 (§169–171)

“There came out of Egypt about this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs.
He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down.”

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II. HOW PEOPLE DIED IN JERUSALEM (AD 70)​

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5. Famine so severe people ate refuse​

Jewish War 5.13.7 (§571–572)

“Children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating, out of their mouths, and what was still more to be pitied, so did the mothers do as to their infants.
And when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives.
And while they ate after this manner, yet were they not concealed in so doing; but the robbers would come presently, and snatch away from them what they had gotten from others; and they would search the very privies and old dunghills of cattle, and eat the dung which they got there; and what they could not endure to see formerly, they now used for food.”

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6. Cannibalism: the woman Mary eats her child​

Jewish War 6.3.4 (§201–213)

“There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, whose name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezub, which signifies the house of hyssop.
She was eminent for her family and her wealth; and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time.
What she had treasured up besides, as necessary to sustain life, had been already carried off by the rapacious guards…
She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, ‘O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? … Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets.’
As soon as she had said this, she slew her son; and then roasted him, and ate the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed.”

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7. Crucifixions: crosses ran out​

Jewish War 5.11.1 (§449–451)

“So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest; when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies.”

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8. People throwing themselves into the fire or killing themselves​

Jewish War 6.4.5 (§405–408)

“As the flame went upward, the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required; and as the flame went up, so did their lamentations…
Yet many of these were such as were surrounded with the flames, and burned together with the temple itself.
Others of them, as unable to endure the fire, threw themselves down headlong, and perished; and some were caught by the Romans, and were slain.”

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9. Slaughter, slavery, mines, and beasts​

Jewish War 6.9.2 (§414–418)

“Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand…
Of these, the captives under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves; but of the rest, Titus sent the greatest part of them to the provinces, and condemned them to be destroyed in the theatres, by the sword and by the wild beasts.
But those that were of the tallest and most beautiful youth, he reserved for the triumph.”

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Dan1988 said:

I should have made my point clearer, I should have said. Most Christian Denominations don't accept the bible doctrine of hell. Most have invented their own unbvi9blical version of hell. I believe this is, because the truth about hell is just to hard to accept.

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I believe there is ECT, for the devil and his messengers. Unquestionably so

But not for people.

The reason it's difficult to sort thru for all of us is that ALL of us remain under demonic influences in this present life. We're not free from the facts of evil in our own hearts and THAT is demonically sourced.

ALL have sin.
Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Devils operate in the lanes of temptations, evil thoughts, lawless thoughts in our own minds that defile ALL of us. Mark 7:21-23

So again, technically, ECT scriptured can be directed to our own face and apply to our internal adversary(s). Just as Jesus rebuked SATAN in Peter or as Satan entered Judas. Matt:4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Our sin is no different than that of anyone else, Romans 3:9. We're no better

The only difference is to speak honestly about it rather than continuing in blindness about the facts above

Those who ride high horses can have nastier falls