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RileyG · 2025-12-05T18:27:21-0600

iluvatar5150 said:
The people doing the misinforming are definitely doing it on purpose.

Yes, I can agree to that.

RileyG · 2025-12-05T18:26:37-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
The old Sunday school I went to used to have the slogan
"Don't smoke, drink, or chew... or run with those who do"

My parents did end up easing up on that stuff a bit, and ended up in a church that was a little more "relaxed".... of course, that didn't happen until I was much older, so I didn't get to enjoy the benefit of it like my two younger brothers (who are quite a bit younger) did.

Super curious, what denomination was it?

Hentenza · 2025-12-05T18:26:17-0600

Fervent said:
It's not about who you quoted, but the use of theopneustos in its original context. So no goalposts have been moved, as the issue remains what "God-breathed' means in 2 Tim. 3:16.

Actually it is about who I quoted. Clement’s quote more than meets the definition of theopneustos so yes, the goal posts have been moved. Secondly I have been addressing your posts in good faith while you continue to change from sui generis to pneumotheos to now theopneustos. So yes, you are moving the goal posts and I’m calling you out on it. I’m done. Be blessed.

RileyG · 2025-12-05T18:25:54-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
The regional food cultures could play a factor.

But in the case of my extended family, most were Ohioans for quite a while on both sides of the family
(My mom's one aunt stayed in Kentucky with her family, the rest from that side moved up here)

The Church I grew up in had bi-weekly buffet style meals that closely resembled this
View attachment 374060

After every Sunday service, and on Wednesday nights after the Prayer meeting and AWANAs let out.

It'd typically have fried chicken & jo-jos, mac & cheese, usually some sort of pasta dish, a few casseroles, a few sheet pizzas, and then there was the Soda and Dessert table down at the other end that would have a mountain of cookies and every flavor of soda you can imagine.

And adults and children alike would "go to town".

...and I don't mean to do this just to strictly pick on Baptists for "using food to fill some voids".

I think a lot of problematic overeating probably fits that definition.

I'm reading through a Cleveland Clinic piece on this topic as we speak, and it states:
“Boredom eating is the No. 1 trigger of mindless overeating,” states Dr. Albers. “And we tend to do it often in certain spots and locations. For example, on the couch while we’re watching TV, or if you’re sitting at your desk because you’re feeling bored.”

Oh my goodness, that sounds delicious and tempting! Maybe they saw it as a fellowship time?

But I agree with the boredom part. That makes sense to me.

GloryToHisName · 2025-12-05T18:24:38-0600

samaus123456789 said:
Yeh there is problems with the 49 years in Dan 9. Revelation was written pre 70 ad i have a post on it.
More on the 49 years from chat gpt

but the walls and gates appear to be fully finished in nehemiah 12 which is no later than the 32nd year of Artaxerxes which is far less than 49 years starting at the decree in nehemiah 2 or ezra 7
ChatGPT said:

You’ve spotted something important — if the 49 years (the 7 sevens) must be the entire period of rebuilding Jerusalem, then:

Nehemiah’s wall repair (445 BC) AND Ezra’s reforms (458 BC) finish FAR too quickly to fill a 49-year period.
This means Daniel is NOT describing Nehemiah’s wall project at all, because Nehemiah finishes the walls in 52 days, not decades.
Let’s walk through the logic carefully so you can see exactly what the text requires and what it cannot mean.

⭐ 1. THE DANIEL 9:25 REQUIREMENT

Daniel says:

⭐ 2. BUT NEHEMIAH’S WALL PROJECT IS TOO FAST

Nehemiah 6:15 says:

Neh 2 → Neh 12 occurs within 1–2 years, not 49.

Neh 13 happens in Artaxerxes’ 32nd year, 12 years after Neh 2.
Still nowhere close to 49 years.
✔ Nehemiah cannot fulfill the 49 years. He is too fast.

⭐ 3. EZRA’S ARRIVAL ALSO DOES NOT WORK

Ezra 7 occurs in the 7th year of Artaxerxes (458 BC).
Ezra’s reforms take:

A few months for the journey

A few months for the investigation

A few years of teaching
Nowhere near 49 years.
✔ Ezra also cannot fulfill the 7 sevens.

⭐ 4. CONCLUSION: THE 49 YEARS MUST BE A DIFFERENT PERIOD ENTIRELY

Nehemiah & Ezra do not rebuild Jerusalem for 49 years.
They rebuild: the wall, gates, some houses, the Temple administration, the community covenant — but Daniel’s 49 years describe much more:
⭐ A full civic reconstruction of Jerusalem itself, not just walls.
Ezra and Nehemiah only restore: the Temple system, the walls, a small population core, basic civic order.
Nehemiah expressly says:

⭐ 5. WHAT 49-YEAR PERIOD DOES FIT DANIEL 9:25?

There are only two periods in the Persian era that actually took ~49 years to restore Jerusalem as a functioning city:

OPTION A

From Cyrus’ decree (538 BC) → completion of full post-exilic restoration
Here’s the timeline under Cyrus → Darius:

538 BC — decree to return

537 BC — altar rebuilt

536 BC — foundations laid

520 BC — Haggai & Zechariah restart the work

516 BC — Temple finished

Late 500s–480s — city slowly repopulates, walls partially repaired, governance restored (full civic restoration takes decades)
Cyrus’ decree in 538 BC + 49 years = 489 BC
This lands near the time Jerusalem’s population, civic life, elders, priests, and judges finally stabilize.
✔ This period actually is 49 years of difficult rebuilding.
✔ This matches Daniel’s “times of trouble” — constant enemies & opposition.
✔ This is LONG before Ezra–Nehemiah.

OPTION B

From Darius’ decree (520 BC) → completion of Jerusalem’s rebuilding
Haggai 1–2 and Ezra 5–6 describe Darius strengthening the decree to rebuild.
If we start in 520 BC:
520 BC + 49 years = 471 BC
By this time: the Temple is finished, the city is functioning, governance is stable, priestly and scribal administration is restored, population has increased, defenses repaired (long before Nehemiah’s day).
✔ Again — this is a true multi-decade rebuild.
✔ And long before Nehemiah.

⭐ 6. WHY THE 49 YEARS CANNOT START WITH ARTAXERXES’ DECREES

Here is the core problem:
➤ Artaxerxes’ 7th year (Ezra 7) = 458 BC
458 + 49 = 409 BC
But by 408 BC, the Elephantine papyri show: Jerusalem already functioning, Sanballat & Johanan established, high priesthood stable, Temple operating, Persian governors in place.
There is no 49-year rebuilding period after Ezra.
➤ Artaxerxes’ 20th year (Nehemiah 2) = 445 BC
445 + 49 = 396 BC
But: the walls already done in 52 days, Nehemiah left office in 433 BC, Johanan is high priest by 408 BC, nothing in 445–396 BC fits a 49-year reconstruction phase.
The city is already rebuilt and functioning decades BEFORE 396 BC.

⭐ 7. THE ONLY LOGICAL TEXT-BASED CONCLUSION

Daniel’s 49 years (7 sevens) describe the entire Persian-era rebuilding process that began under Cyrus and Darius — NOT the short repairs of Ezra or Nehemiah.
✔ Nehemiah’s walls do not take 49 years
✔ Ezra’s reforms do not take 49 years
✔ The city is fully functioning long before 49 years after Nehemiah
Therefore:
⭐ Daniel’s 49 years belong to an earlier phase of the Persian restoration — beginning with Cyrus or Darius, not Artaxerxes.

Problem is in the solutions chat GPT provided the walls are not rebuilt which is not until 445 BC nor have the Levites come back yet which is around the same time or a bit later. Using Nehemiah 2 decree 20th year artaxerxes 445 bc , and 360 day years it gets the crucifixion to 33 ad but it means some part of the restoration and rebuilding process was not complete until 395 bc which contradicts nehemiah 12 where all the levites come back from babylon and pray over the walls which at latest is only 12 years after nehemiah 2 (nehemiah 13 is 32nd year of artaxerxes) . and using 540 bc or 520 bc does not get anywhere near AD times for the crucifixion or 70 ad. so there are some problems.

Check out how vaticanus from 350 ad renders daniel 9 Textual Variants Daniel’s 70 weeks, Susanna, Prayer of Hananiah, Bel and the dragon he has other bible versions of it listed there too

I don't know which reading of Dan 9 is closest to the original therefore it makes it very hard to know exactly what the original prophecy language it was and near impossible to reconcile it with internal dates of ezra nehemiah and archaeology

Daniel 9:25 — Interpreting “Messiah the Prince”

The phrase “the Messiah the Prince” in Daniel 9:25 is intentionally multilevel in meaning. When the seventy weeks are read as divided into two 70 week cycles within the text itself, the Hebrew grammar allows the title to operate simultaneously on Messianic, historical, and dual-cycle levels without contradiction.

---

Daniel 9:25 — Translation

> “Know and understand from the going forth of the word to **build** and **restore** Jerusalem for an anointed one and a ruler, seven sevens; weeks 60, the second; and again it shall be returned and built, with anguish and diligence in its streets in those times.”

---

Hebrew Nuance — נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ

The phrase נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ (nagid u-mashiach) permits two grammatical readings:

1) Single figure — Anointed Ruler
A unified King-Priest typology: mashiach (anointed one) + nagid (ruler).

2) Two figures — Anointed One and Ruler
The conjunction וּ (“and”) allows distinction of roles.
Daniel 9:26 confirms this separation:

> “The people of the ruler who is to come…”

Thus the Ruler is distinguishable from the Anointed One in the prophetic flow.

---

Three-Layer Structure

Messianic Layer

Christ fulfills both titles in unity:

Anointed One — Messiah

Ruler — King

The prophecy centers on His appearing within the first cycle and His authority extending beyond it.

---

Dual-Cycle Layer

Daniel 9:24 declares:

> “Seventy weeks are divided out” (נֶחְתַּךְ)

This verb indicates partition, not a single uninterrupted span.

Daniel 9:25 includes the internal marker:

> Weeks 60, the second (שָׁבוּעַ 60 הַשֵּׁנִי)

This identifies the 60th week within the second cycle, not the beginning of it. The second cycle therefore begins earlier and advances toward that marker.

Under this reading:

First 70 week cycle culminates in Christ as the anointed ruler, starting from the *building*.

Second 70 week cycle begins with the **restoration** of Jerusalem under Suleiman as the ruler in (1542). (In the reading the anointed one is Christ and remains in the first 70)

Its 60th week corresponds to the modern return of Jerusalem.

Its final week concludes with the kingdom’s establishment.

---

Historical (Persian) Layer

The prophecy also functions inside Persian history:

Cyrus = Anointed One (Isaiah 45:1)

Artaxerxes = Ruler (nagid) issuing the command in Ezra-Nehemiah

Hebrew confirmation:

> מִן־מֹצָא דָבָר — “from the going forth of the word”

This phrase denotes divine authorization rather than a merely civil edict.

---

Timeline (Integrated)

First Cycle — Ancient Fulfillment

457 BC — Word goes forth (Artaxerxes)
7 weeks (49 yrs) → Jerusalem rebuilt under Nehemiah
62 weeks (434 yrs) → Messiah revealed
Final week: AD 26–33
Mid-week: Christ crucified
AD 70 — City and Temple destroyed

---

Second Cycle — Restoration Pattern

1542 — Suleiman rebuilds Jerusalem walls
60th week reached — Jerusalem regained
Final week: 2025–2032
Mid-week (3½ yrs): covenant broken, persecution intensifies
Kingdom consummated at the decreed end.

---

Structural Markers

Hebrew PhraseMeaning

נֶחְתַּךְDivided / apportioned
שָׁבוּעַ 60 הַשֵּׁנִי60th week of second cycle
וְחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַMidpoint of final week
נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַUnified or dual subject
מִן־מֹצָא דָבָרDivine decree

---

Summary

LayerAnointed OneRulerFulfillment

MessianicChristChristEternal
Dual-CycleChristSuleimanRestoration
PersianCyrusArtaxerxesFoundation

---

Conclusion

Daniel 9:25 is deliberately multivalent. The Hebrew syntax permits singular or dual identity, the structure divides the weeks into cycles, and history confirms both. The prophecy unfolds in layers: Persian inauguration, Messianic fulfillment, and later restoration — culminating in the decreed end.

LoricaLady · 2025-12-05T18:18:26-0600

Nigerian pastor dies in captivity,

An Anglican priest in Nigeria who was abducted with his wife and daughter is understood to have died in captivity, Morning Star News has reported.

Rev Edwin Achi was kidnapped in October with his wife, Sarah Achi, and daughter in Kaduna state. Leaders of the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) did not say how he died, but it is believed that his abductors had demanded a ransom of 600 million naira (£315,000).

They said that his death was ‘a painful loss to the entire diocese, the clergy, the church family and all who were blessed by his faithful ministry, humble spirit and unwavering devotion to the service of God’.

Pray for the release of Rev Achi’s wife and daughter and for the many other Christians who have been kidnapped in Nigeria.

Last month gunmen abducted 303 students from a boarding school in Niger state, according to the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN). About 50 of them escaped shortly afterwards, according to the local CAN chapter.

Central Asia

Release International’s partner in Central Asia supports gospel ministry and church-planting in areas where Christians are often persecuted.

Pray for Pastor Pavel Shreider who remains in prison in Kyrgyzstan, serving a three-year sentence on charges of ‘inciting racial, ethnic, national, religious or regional hatred.’ He denies all charges and is preparing to appeal. He has brain injuries that have left him cognitively impaired, and has developed encephalopathy, having been tortured by the secret police.

Pray for Kyrgyzstan after restrictions against freedom of religion and belief came into effect in February. Pray that Christians and churches would stand strong in this difficult environment and that their faith would deepen.

Pray for God’s wisdom for church leaders in the region who reject, on principle, any registration of their congregations with government authorities. In Central Asian countries, such unregistered gatherings are considered a violation of state laws.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-05T18:17:28-0600

timf said:
But how do you know the Spirit is there if you can't feel it?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The Holy Spirit works in us to make us better people. The fact that you want to be better may be an indication that the Holy Spirit is already working in you.

I think also, being convicted is a sign of his presence, and the forerunner to meekness. You can see how people far from God aren’t convicted. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.

comana · 2025-12-05T18:16:29-0600

Always in His Presence said:
I didn’t say anything about the boat being salvageable

In other words, not salvageable is destroyed for all practical purposes. The ”threat” is gone as the two survivors cannot continue with their mission. They should have been brought on board. ship and detained.

Fervent · 2025-12-05T18:15:37-0600

Hentenza said:
I didn’t quote Paul. I quoted Clement. You keep moving the goal posts. I’m going to end this here. You don’t respond to my posts like I respond to yours.

It's not about who you quoted, but the use of theopneustos in its original context. So no goalposts have been moved, as the issue remains what "God-breathed' means in 2 Tim. 3:16.

Hentenza · 2025-12-05T18:15:06-0600

Studyman said:
One law "shall be to him" that is homeborn, and "unto" the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Remember, There is only One God. And HE doesn't make you or any human respect Him. It is a choice God gives to men. God gave these people a choice to partake in His Salvation plan for mankind, to partake of the most Holy Passover. Not only Abraham's children, but any Egyptian who would also chose to deny themselves and their ancient religious traditions, and place their Faith to the God of Abraham. Because as God's Law states, Israelites were strangers in Egypt, no different than the Egyptians. And God Chose the Israelites, not because of anything they did, but as this One True God tells you, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38 And a "mixed multitude" went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

These were Egyptians/Gentiles/strangers who chose to sojourn with the Children of Israel, as God accepts anyone who would join themselves to Him, as you have been shown by others. And HE made sure that the Israelites were given God's Law that stipulates this Command from God for the Non-Jew.

Lev. 19: 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you "shall be "unto you" as one born among you", and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

This is the 2nd Greatest Commandment in the Law. It also confirms Paul's teaching that a Jew is not one outwardly, or based on DNA, a Jews is one inwardly, and anyone who honored God with obedience from the heart, is accepted of Him, and to be treated as a Child of Abraham and heirs to the promises..

Jesus also confirms this when HE says, Abraham's Children are those who do the "Works" of Abraham". And as it is also written, God is not a respecter of persons, or a God that judges a man by the DNA he was born with.

You are free to worship any God you want, just as both Israel and the Egyptians and Eve for that matter, were free to refuse to submit to this God, and choose instead to listen to the "other" voices which exist in the world God placed us in. He will not force you to respect Him, and I can't make you hear His Words.

But your stated religious philosophy, "The God that I “profess” never gave the law to the gentiles.", is not the same God that Inspired the Holy Scriptures, as anyone who studies them can see that God" Law is for anyone who chooses to "Join themselves" to Him.

My hope is that you will realize that the Exodus story was Inspired by the One True God, so that you might hear Him, and stop lusting after the same disobedience they lusted after. But this is your choice, and it must be made from the heart, according to what is written.

If we can't unite with God on this one point, there is no use in continuing.

You did not address my post so there is no reason to continue indeed.

martinlb · 2025-12-05T18:14:51-0600

No-one kmows. What we do know is that all around us there will be prople claiming it's here. It's not, and won't be until the man of lawlessness appears. And that appearance won't be up for debate whether it's happening or not.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-05T18:14:35-0600

The church in Ephesus can be founded shortly after people from Ephesus on Pentecost go back to their home country, and start a church in 33 AD. Revelation internally it is written pre 70 AD so I reject any idea it was written after that. The type of persecution (synagogue only in Rev 2:9, 3:9, no Roman except for Pergamon where the Roman politicians can kill anyone they want, exiling Christians which aligns with Claudius) aligns with early persecution not Nero, and not Domitian.
No he did not want to say " I know the person that wrote Revelation" as that would be boasting kind of like someone today saying "I know the person that started bitcoin" or some other big brag that hardly anyone would know the answer to. There is no internal problem with me believing Paul is referencing John that wrote Rev 41 AD.

" 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast" He is boasting about someone else.

Hentenza · 2025-12-05T18:12:27-0600

Fervent said:
Gregory of Nyssa isn't contemporaneous with Paul, and doesn't bring any light to what theopneustos means.

I didn’t quote Paul. I quoted Clement. You keep moving the goal posts. I’m going to end this here. You don’t respond to my posts like I respond to yours.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-12-05T18:08:06-0600

samaus123456789 said:
Yeh I believe Paul was talking about the author of Revelation. On Pentecost there are people from all nations under heaven in one spot, 3000 believes in Jesus then they would of travelled back to their home countries (Asia was one which is where the 7 churches were) started churches, and so by 41 AD the churches could of been running for 8 years (assume the crucifixion was 33 AD, and they went back home after Pentecost, and started churches right away), and started to develop doctrinal problems. We find one of the Herods had enough political power in Judea to kill John the Baptist around 33 AD so Antipas that was killed in Revelation could of been killed by one of the local Roman politicians in Pergamon. Roman politicians could kill anyone they want in that city (will look for source). So there is no date problem for the churches in Revelation being 41 AD. 41-54 AD was Claudius Caesars rule, and he kicked Judeans out of Rome (Acts 18:2) 49 AD whether Christian or non Christian Judeans. He observed Christianity started in Judea, and saw there was conflict between Judeans about Jesus, and just wanted them gone

In Claudius 25 Suetonius refers to the expulsion of Jews by Claudius and states (in Catharine Edwards' translation):[1] Chrestus= Christ/Jesus.

Slavonic Josephus says Claudius exiled Christians to distant lands, and that was 44-48 AD Gnostic John the Baptizer - III. The Slavonic Josephus' A... | Sacred Texts Archive so Claudius was known to just kick people out of places, and not kill them which is Johns (whoever John was) situation in Revelation.

There is no internal or external problem with Revelation being written 41 AD. The earlier the better as ch 1-12 was about to come on the whole land of Judea- Gods worst judgement in history on OT Israel, and the end of it never to return again.
As for other external dates they range from Domitian, Claudius, Nero, even Caligula. I believe inspired scripture stopped 70 AD so i go with internal evidence over external evidence.
Someone 900-1000 AD said Antipas was burned alive in a metal bull but this is very late, and no early sources say it. Chapt GPT said there was one early source about Antipas but I could not find it. Will look again.

You're leaving a lot of details out here that don't support your theory.

The church in Ephesus was not even founded until 51 AD and that is one of the churches addressed in Revelation. So, it cannot possibly have been written in 41 AD.

Also, the type of persecution that is described as happening in some of the churches aligns better with the policies of Emperor Domitian's reign in the 90s AD than with the reign of Claudius in 41 AD.

Can you address what I said in post #9 about who Paul was talking about in 2nd Corinthians 12? It doesn't appear that you read 2nd Corinthians 12 very carefully. What he said strongly hinted that he was talking about himself, but he just didn't want to say it explicitly because he didn't want to come across as though he was boasting about his experience.

Hentenza · 2025-12-05T18:07:51-0600

BobRyan said:
Not true.

Adam did not "take God's name in vain"
Gen 6-7 shows that even the distinction between CLEAN vs UNCLEAN animals we observed before the flood

Irrelevant. No sabbath here.

BobRyan said:
Gen 4 shows that the law against Murder declaring it to be sin, was known and enforced before the flood.

Again, irrelevant. No sabbath here.

BobRyan said:
The Sabbath commandment itself points directly at Gen 2:2-3 for its origin.

No one read Gen. 2:2-3 until God gave the tablets of stone to Moses in the 15th century BCE.

BobRyan said:
Mark 2:27 Jesus points at Gen 1-2 speaking of both the "making of the Sabbath" for mankind, and the "making of mankind"

No. That is you reading your pet doctrine into the text. Jesus holds ultimate authority over the sabbath.

martinlb · 2025-12-05T18:07:18-0600

Well, Pilate's question seems in context to be more likely rhetorical than a request for information. But aside from that, the actual question is so broad, so complex, that I'd only try answering it (try) in context. One more thing, though, is that far too many people who identify as Christian don't seem to think about the fact that we actually worship the one who self-identifies as actually being truth.

durangodawood · 2025-12-05T18:06:50-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
The old Sunday school I went to used to have the slogan
"Don't smoke, drink, or chew... or run with those who do"

My parents did end up easing up on that stuff a bit, and ended up in a church that was a little more "relaxed".... of course, that didn't happen until I was much older, so I didn't get to enjoy the benefit of it like my two younger brothers (who are quite a bit younger) did.

Maybe just dont chew fried refined flours and sugar every meal.... or run with those who do.

Fervent · 2025-12-05T18:06:49-0600

Hentenza said:
There are several coeval authors that come to mind like Gregory of Nyssa that attacked the Arius heretical views using what he called inspired scriptures and divine words. Another one would be Tertullian defending the Trinity calling the scriptures the rule of faith. There is more but I’ll have to look at my studies when I get home.

Gregory of Nyssa isn't contemporaneous with Paul, and doesn't bring any light to what theopneustos means.

Hentenza said:
When I replied to your post my answer was that both of us had read texts but had different opinions. So what is your opinion based on?

Seeing its usage in pre-Origen material such as the Sibylline oracles, Testament of Abraham, and Vettius Velens. I am well aware later authors, beginning with Origen, took it to be speaking of inspiration but that is after 2 and a half centuries had passed since Paul wrote it.

Hentenza said:
I’m pretty sure that “true utterances of the Holy Spirit” qualifies nicely.

No one is denying the truth and reliability of Scripture. The question is whether or not it is exhaustive, which none of the ECFs believed

Hentenza said:
We continue to disagree here. I consider Holy Scripture to stand on its own and above tradition. Many errors come from using tradition in the same level as Holy Scripture including the errors by the Pharisees of old that Jesus so eloquently defeated and newer heretical groups like the Mormons and JWs. The history, in fact, favors the uniqueness and sufficiency of scripture.

You are operating under a tradition that developed a millenium and a half after the Scriptures were written. So its not Scripture vs tradition, but which tradition should take precedence. The Protestant tradition developed by Luther and Calvin based on nearly sole dependence on Augustine for ancient support, or the broader tradition of the church that was united until the turn of the first millenium.

SavedByGrace3 · 2025-12-05T18:04:56-0600

joechristianwarrior said:
Sure. One example has to do with the poor. Many label calls to help those who are poor, or born at an economic disadvantage, as "social justice". And many 'Christians' avoid discussions along those lines specifically, as one example.

I have never heard or avoided discussing that topic, nor have I ever experienced others. We can discuss it all you want.
Our family has donated thousands and thousands of $ to the poor and disadvantaged. I know of many Christians who have done the same.
But I suspect you are referring to politically and government-enforced giving, which is fine. I want my giving to glorify God, not some politician or political party. Even so, that does not mean I am avoiding the topic of giving. I don't want to have my arm twisted to give to politicians and be told I am not loving if I refuse. So I see this discussion is just one more attempt to accuse "Christians" of not caring because we hesitate to contribute to state and political purposes. I would like to see the state pass laws that allow us to either contribute to the state's tax welfare programs or contribute the same amount to the charity organizations of our choice.

The Barbarian · 2025-12-05T18:04:26-0600

jacorian said:
Since the Mi-Lai massacre back in the Vietnam days I'm certain that our military does desk work studying in classes on this kind of stuff. The delegation of six was clearly using their office to put in the head of the military some pretense to protest & disobey. Now if such soldier took that risk, they could be risking their career. For what?

Someone did at My-Lai:
Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. (April 15, 1943 – January 6, 2006) was a United States Army officer, serving as a warrant officer in the 123rd Aviation Battalion of the 23rd Infantry Division. He is credited with ending the Mỹ Lai massacre of the South Vietnamese village known as Sơn Mỹ on March 16, 1968, alongside Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn.

During the massacre, Thompson and his Hiller OH-23 Raven crew, Andreotta and Colburn, stopped many killings by threatening and blocking American officers and enlisted soldiers of Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd Infantry Division. Additionally, Thompson and his crew saved a number of Vietnamese civilians by personally escorting them away from advancing United States Army ground units and assuring their evacuation by air. Thompson reported the atrocities by radio several times while at Sơn Mỹ. Although these reports reached Task Force Barker operational headquarters, nothing was done to stop the massacre. After evacuating a child to a Quảng Ngãi hospital, Thompson angrily reported to his superiors at Task Force Barker headquarters that a massacre was occurring at Sơn Mỹ. Immediately following Thompson's report, Lieutenant Colonel Frank A. Barker ordered all ground units in Sơn Mỹ to cease search and destroy operations in the village.

Hugh Thompson Jr. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There were monsters and cowards wearing American uniforms that day, but there were also heroes. Hugh Thompson was most notable among them. Pray to God that there are still men like him serving in our armed forces. Trump calls them seditionists who should be killed. That will always be a blot on our nation, that a president of the United States would consider following the law to be a capital crime.

Dan Perez · 2025-12-05T18:01:13-0600

LoveGodsWord said:
WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL AND CHURCH? (Part 1/2)

ISRAEL (God’s new name given to Jacob) had 12 sons which make up the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

GENESIS 35:22-26 [22], ... Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: [23], The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: [24], The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: [25], And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: [26], And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, who were born to him in Paddanaram.

God’s promise of the NEW COVENANT is to ISRAEL…

JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD: [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

144, 000 Come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL…

REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [5], Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of Asher were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Now we have shown the origin of the name ISRAEL let's look at the scripture in detail in the NEW TESTAMENT scripture to see who God's ISRAEL is...

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

CONCLUSION: God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

............

Question; What are your thoughts? Is God's true ISRAEL the Church?

God bless..

So when. did the OLD COVENANT END. and the NEW COVENANT BEGIN /

# 2 How is anyone saved under the NEW COVENANT. ??"

# 3. What does it mean to be BORN AGAIN in. JOHN. 3;5

# 4 What does it mean to be BORN. OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT. in. JOHN. 3:7. ??

# 5 EXPLAIN Gal 6:15. will explain ISRAEL and the BODY OF CHRIST. !!

dan p

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martinlb · 2025-12-05T18:01:06-0600

Talking in a manner that's distinctly different from normal isn't the same thing as being quiet in a movie theater. It's a distinct difference and it's done for a reason. And taking one's shoes off isn't even close to changing how we talk.

iluvatar5150 · 2025-12-05T18:00:37-0600

Oompa Loompa said:
"Heritabe?" I assume you meant "heritage." Intesting because another poster was quick to point out my typo to somehow make an ad hominem attack on my credibility. But, I digress. What value did my heritage and culture bring to the United States? It was a culture of being American by supporting traditional American values like patriotism and self-sacrifice. That rugged individualism that overcame hardships and trials to make the country stronger. Now, what does Somalian heritage and culture bring to the table that benefits the United States? For the record, this is now the fourth time I asked the question and received only non-answers and deflections.

Fleeing a war-torn region, moving halfway across the world, and setting up a community in a new area sounds a lot of “overcoming trials and hardship” to me.

RDKirk · 2025-12-05T17:59:01-0600

jacorian said:
My understanding is that the survivors were trying to access another vessel.

Who said that? What other vessel?

jacorian said:
But as in any military or police operation, munitions firing is carried out to ensure complete safety. I.e. it's not a quota of shots & you're done.

Who said that? Where was that said?

iluvatar5150 · 2025-12-05T17:58:30-0600

RileyG said:
I think many people are misinformed on Islam. Not on purpose.

The people doing the misinforming are definitely doing it on purpose.

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⭐ 1. THE DANIEL 9:25 REQUIREMENT​

⭐ 2. BUT NEHEMIAH’S WALL PROJECT IS TOO FAST​

⭐ 3. EZRA’S ARRIVAL ALSO DOES NOT WORK​

⭐ 4. CONCLUSION: THE 49 YEARS MUST BE A DIFFERENT PERIOD ENTIRELY​

⭐ 5. WHAT 49-YEAR PERIOD DOES FIT DANIEL 9:25?​

OPTION A​

OPTION B​

⭐ 6. WHY THE 49 YEARS CANNOT START WITH ARTAXERXES’ DECREES​

⭐ 7. THE ONLY LOGICAL TEXT-BASED CONCLUSION​

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Check out how vaticanus from 350 ad renders daniel 9 Textual Variants Daniel’s 70 weeks, Susanna, Prayer of Hananiah, Bel and the dragon he has other bible versions of it listed there too​

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I don't know which reading of Dan 9 is closest to the original therefore it makes it very hard to know exactly what the original prophecy language it was and near impossible to reconcile it with internal dates of ezra nehemiah and archaeology​

​

​

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⭐ 1. THE DANIEL 9:25 REQUIREMENT

⭐ 2. BUT NEHEMIAH’S WALL PROJECT IS TOO FAST

⭐ 3. EZRA’S ARRIVAL ALSO DOES NOT WORK

⭐ 4. CONCLUSION: THE 49 YEARS MUST BE A DIFFERENT PERIOD ENTIRELY

⭐ 5. WHAT 49-YEAR PERIOD DOES FIT DANIEL 9:25?

OPTION A

OPTION B

⭐ 6. WHY THE 49 YEARS CANNOT START WITH ARTAXERXES’ DECREES

⭐ 7. THE ONLY LOGICAL TEXT-BASED CONCLUSION

Check out how vaticanus from 350 ad renders daniel 9 Textual Variants Daniel’s 70 weeks, Susanna, Prayer of Hananiah, Bel and the dragon he has other bible versions of it listed there too

I don't know which reading of Dan 9 is closest to the original therefore it makes it very hard to know exactly what the original prophecy language it was and near impossible to reconcile it with internal dates of ezra nehemiah and archaeology