I hope, @1Tonne , you can at least see where we conditionalists are coming from Biblically with our stance even if you disagree with how we're interpreting it, and that you do not make the insulting accusation that we are trying to diminish Christ's sacrifice in any way.
I do understand where you are coming from and I do not think it is you personally who is diminishing the sacrifice of Christ but your belief.
I also do not think that annihilationist's are heretics as some people think. I believe that they are misguided in their understanding but not heretics.
Is this you declaring a victory, or just asking me to go away? Abd FWIW, you can tell when I'm posting on a telephone because my spelling worsens by orders of magnitude. <Laugh>
The quotes provide context for my replies, to avoid the standard "you took me out of context!" dodge. If I misquote you then you have a valid beef.
To be clear, I don't consider, or call, God a pitiless monster. But that's how your religion paints Him, inflicting ghastly punishments to be inflicted eternally for finite offenses. It's your lot who say God is a monster, by insisting that He inflicts torture 0n those who offend Him so horrific that no human psychopath could inflict them even if he was so inclined, and which no living human victim could possibly survive for more than a brief period of time if it . The "gift of God, ", eternal life, simply provides a mechanism to torture the recipient of God's hatred for an limitless period of time, because, at least in your religion, God's malice endures forever and ever.
Not to mention infinitely unforgiving, infinitely vindictive, infinitely spiteful, etc. And to what end? As I've asked before, who benefits from the Infinite horrific and inconvievably brutal punishments that benefit no one.? In your religion is that necessitated by God's infinite ability to hold a grudge?
Even, apparently, to the point of sins unknowingly committed, or because the condemned was never persuaded to believe in Christ, or so I'm told. No more of that "forgive them because they don't know any better" stuff either, right? Once again, it's "burn, baby burn!"
Working from your own in-house lexicon again I see. And no, infinite Punishment for finite offenses would simply be simply cruelty for its own sake. Holiness? Debatable, especially not knowing how it's defined in your in-house dictionary. Just? Infinite punish for finite offenses? Not in any of the languages I know. No more "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth", it's "burn forever for being too boneheaded to listen to the right preachers". Ain't no justice there, matey.
That has to be a "See, He doesn't condemn everybody to eternal torture!" thing. After all, He's God, and He could roast everybody ever if He wanted to! Yeah, that kind of mercy.-sigh-
Which in your ecomony it apparently pretty much always is...
So it could be worse, it cou'd be two infinite stays in hell to run consecutively.
Into negative numbers?
No, you simply ascribe it to Him.
Chapter and verse?
Funny, I'd have thought that God might be hoped to behave as our Lord Jesus did. Silly notion, huh?
So it's OK if He behaves in a manner that we'd find utterly abhorrent in a human being. Right.
It would if it was anything other than a noxious doctrine made up from whole cloth.
No, it reveals how ghastly human imaginings of God's behavior can be.
And that Damnationist doctrines are far more apalling than most of us care to imagine.
Assuring us that God is just lying in wait for an opportunity to send us to eternal torture. Right.
The wages of sin is death. But apparently that isn't nasty enough to suit some folks.
Which eternal life? The on in Heaven or the one in hell?
Yep, it's very clear. The Wages of Sin is Death. Not eternal life in hell. Y'all don't seem to understand the contrast.
And it's the only eternal life there is.
Destruction meaning, in English, destruction. Not Bad Erernal Life.
He came so that we might have life, and have if more abundantly. You lot claim we've got "life" in any case, it's just torture we're to be saved from.
Well yeah, that's precisely the thing, You'd have us believe that God grants everyone eternal life, but unless we're saved from God's wrath and hatred, eternal life is a sentence to perpetual torture.
"Reality" being that God's hatred of humanity is such that He finds everyone guilty of crimes worth of eternal torment unless we're saved from His implacable hatred.
Hurray, they've been saved from God!
And God's just itching for an excuse, right?
And in your religion, the need is to be saved from God.
Oh. You did it again. This time I think it is 29 more erratic little posts. LOL
I don't believe so. And how are you hoping to inspire true repentance which we know is a true change of heart and mind, a new way of thinking while spreading ECT? You are turning many people off of God, instead of showing his true nature. Which is not to burn someone for an eternity. He wants our love plain and simple. He wants our trust and belief that we can put our lives in his hands. He's long suffering wishing all would come to repentance and not perish. That's our Father, not the one you've made him out to be.
I’m not speaking theoretically here. I actively share the gospel, and I see real fruit. I regularly see people seriously reconsider their sin, their lives, and their standing before God. Some make clear decisions to honour God and leave their old way of life. Others say they will genuinely think about what we discussed. That isn’t manipulation; that’s conviction at work. And I see this very often.
Repentance in Scripture is produced by truth, about God’s holiness, our sin, judgment, and mercy. Jesus warned about hell more than anyone, yet perfectly revealed the Father’s heart. If warning people turns them away from God, then Christ Himself would be guilty of that charge.
This may help you understand how fear can be very good:
There are two kinds of fear. Bad fear paralyzes and keeps people from acting. Good fear, the fear of the Lord, leads to wisdom, repentance, and life (Prov 1:7). The gospel spoken in it's fullness with the truth of Judgement often produces this good fear, and it moves people to act. This good fear will make people want to honour God and put Him first in their lives.- I have seen this many, many times.
God is patient and desires repentance, but His long-suffering does not remove the reality of judgment; it explains why it is delayed. Speaking honestly about that reality is not unloving, it is necessary.
The fear of the Lord is not the enemy of repentance. It is the beginning of wisdom.
Yes, your quoting from Proverbs. But there are a few different words for fear in the OT, one is this one which is not the one you're quoting.
Hebrews 6343-
dreadful, fear, thing great fear terror
From
pachad; a (sudden) alarm (properly, the object feared, by implication, the feeling) -- dread(-ful), fear, (thing) great (fear, -ly feared), terror.
The one your quoting is Hebrews 3374 yirah which is more about reverence, that type of fear and yes, this fear is good. We know we should fear God's wrath, not want to take part in the second death, etc. But that has nothing to do with instilling the belief that God is going to burn someone for an eternity. It's as if you all are reading an entirely different Bible.
The OT uses more than one Hebrew word for fear, but the conclusion you’re drawing from that distinction doesn’t follow.
Yirah (Prov 1:7) certainly includes reverence, but it does not exclude terror or dread of judgment. (
H3374 - yir'â - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (nkjv))
In Scripture, reverence and fear of consequences are not opposites; they belong together. Yirah is used repeatedly in contexts where God’s holiness, justice, and wrath are very much in view (e.g., Deut 10:12–13; Prov 16:6). It is reverent fear because God is holy and judges sin, not because He is harmless.
The New Testament reinforces this fuller sense of fear. Hebrews 12:28 uses eulabeia, a word that carries reverence, godly fear, piety, and even caution, avoidance, dread or anxiety before God’s holiness; and aidos, meaning respect or shame. This shows that biblical fear is not mere politeness or admiration; it includes caution, awe, and a recognition of God’s authority and judgment. Godly fear compels us to take Him seriously, to live in a way that honours Him, and to avoid treating sin casually.
This is why Jesus explicitly connects fear of God with His authority over hell: “Fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”. That is not abstract reverence; it is fear grounded in real consequences.
“Godly fear” isn’t merely respect; it’s a holy fear. The kind that keeps you from treating God casually. It says, “I dare not play games in His presence.” That is precisely the fear Scripture commends.
C. S. Lewis captured this well in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when Mr. Beaver says of Aslan:
“Safe? Who said anything about safe? ’Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.”
We’ve lost this balance in many churches. People want God to be safe. But He is holy, and holiness is not tame.
The Bible does not present two gospels: one of love and one of warning. God’s love, patience, and desire that none perish coexist with sober warnings about eternal judgment. Saying that eternal punishment has “nothing to do” with the fear of the Lord is not a biblical distinction; it’s a theological assumption brought to the text.
So no, this isn’t about “reading a different Bible.” It’s about allowing all of Scripture to define the fear of the Lord, not just the parts that feel more comfortable.
-Reverence without judgment becomes sentimentality.
-Fear without reverence becomes terror.
-Biblical fear holds both together.
You are turning many people off of God
But again, can you inspire true repentance or are they just accepting out of fear? This doctrine is going major damage.
So, since you have said that I am scaring people away from God, or that the only reason they accept is because of fear, I’ll ask you plainly: how do you personally speak the gospel to people outside the church, and how often? Do you see many people change? ....-Or does your annihilationism drive you to apathy?
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