I'm looking for answers

[Aubergine99]

Your answer is in Ro 9:22-23.

I don't understand your answer.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Lol. Atheists aren't going anywhere and hell doesn't exist. Why would a loving God send anyone to hell for something they have no control over? I refuse to believe in such a tyrant.

Hell is demonstrated by many NDEs. It most certainly does exist.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Lol. Atheists aren't going anywhere and hell doesn't exist. Why would a loving God send anyone to hell for something they have no control over? I refuse to believe in such a tyrant.

Existentially, you're free to do what you want. You can choose to believe or to not believe. No one's twisting your arm behind your back to make you believe.

 

[Aubergine99]

You can disagree, but that is not what you asked for. You asked for a response and I gave you a rational answer.

Just because there's a universe does not mean the Christian God created it. It could be any number of Gods, all with different rules.

That seems to be an assertion. Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I think most people would agree that a newborn baby has no concept of anything, let alone God. I was one of them.

All of them.

Most atheists do not sin deliberately and know right from wrong, although people differ on that. I would like to think that God is fair and merciful. Simply not believing in him is not sinful.

The same way we punish murderers in a court of law.

You can't compare punishment in a court of law with a punishment from God. Courts of law often convict the wrong person because of misleading/insufficient evidence or malpractice. God is supposed to be omniscient.

What if God does not actively control what people believe but leaves it up to nature? If an atheist has heard the Gospel, then they are without excuse for not believing.

If God created nature, then he is the designer and knows how it works.

I never mentioned "free will." I am a compatibilist though and I believe free will is compatible with determinism.

You might but I'm a hard determinist.

 

[Aubergine99]

Hell is demonstrated by many NDEs. It most certainly does exist.

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever. NDEs are in no way proof or reliable.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever. NDEs are in no way proof or reliable.

There is not proof for many things. But there is evidence for many things.

 

[Clare73]

I don't understand your answer.

I will assume you mean that you don't understand Ro 9:22-23.

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--who have prepared themselves for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory (goodness) known to the objects of his mercy (Ro 5:20), whom he prepared in advance for glory---" (Ro 9:22-23)

Does the text state a use for those who have prepared themselves for destruction by their own wilfullness and folly?

 

[Aubergine99]

I will assume you mean that you don't understand Ro 9:22-23.

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--who have prepared themselves for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory (goodness) known to the objects of his mercy (Ro 5:20), whom he prepared in advance for glory---" (Ro 9:22-23)

Does the text state a use for those who have prepared themselves for destruction by their own wilfullness and folly?

Is the only reason to be an example to believers of God's anger towards atheists? How does God show his anger as I've never seen it?

 

[Lost4words]

The choice is ours but in no way is it free. Where's the freedom when choices made are a result of previous events we have no control over? Our upbringing, genetics, temperament, education, prior events and thoughts all determine the choice.

Its still free will when we get to an age when we can decide for ourselves.

 

[Aubergine99]

Its still free will when we get to an age when we can decide for ourselves.

It doesn't matter what age you are. We are not responsible for how we turn out since it is determined by past events. This includes our thought processes. If we were to be truly responsible, we would have to have been involved in our creation. Is that not obvious to you?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

We are not responsible for how we turn out since it is determined by past events.

That is what revelation is for. When you hear something new, you can either accept the truth of it or reject it. I'm not making an argument for LFW, I'm saying once truth is given to you you can either change the paradigm you were operating under before or go back to what you always believed.

 

[Aubergine99]

That is what revelation is for. When you hear something new, you can either accept the truth of it or reject it. I'm not making an argument for LFW, I'm saying once truth is given to you you can either change the paradigm you were operating under before or go back to what you always believed.

I can't just accept truth without proof of it. Evidence may help in belief but it's not proof. With regards to God, scriptures, religion etc. there is simply no proof. Aren't Christians taught that faith is what is required since there's no proof?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I can't just accept truth without proof of it. Evidence may help in belief but it's not proof. With regards to God, scriptures, religion etc. there is simply no proof. Aren't Christians taught that faith is what is required since there's no proof?

You have sufficient evidence for Christianity. If you don't, ask me and I would be happy to provide some evidence for you.

 

[Lost4words]

It doesn't matter what age you are. We are not responsible for how we turn out since it is determined by past events. This includes our thought processes. If we were to be truly responsible, we would have to have been involved in our creation. Is that not obvious to you?

Wrong....

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have asked these two questions many times to Christians and no one can answer me, so here goes:

If God is omniscient, why would he create atheists, knowing full well that they will never believe in him? and
Why would he then cast them into eternal hellfire?

God did not create atheists, atheists are a result of their own choices.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Evil men create deceptions, they follow after satan's lie.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

As for omniscient, God does not know every choice man will make. But he has put limits on man that direct him through life.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

You can not be sorry for something you knew or planned.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

If God is the creator of all things, then he is responsible for the design and how it functions.

The fact that God created humankind in His image and invested us with the right to exercise dominion means that we are stewards of His creation and accountable to Him for how well we care for what He has made.

When God created everything out of nothing, everything was good. There was nothing bad, and God gave us choice to either obey Him or not. Why is the disobedience of God evil? Because it's saying that we know better than God, and this is pride, because we think we are more than we are. But we had a choice, we could have freely obey God.

I'm glad you brought up choice but the concept of "free will" is illusory, in my opinion. Everything that happens is a result of previous events, which are mostly out of our control.

So it is just your subjective opinion, not a fact. Why do we then help criminals responsible for their crimes and we punish them?

That makes no sense. Had he not created us, there would be no need whatsoever for love and mercy.

Does God not have a right to create anything He wants? Imagine just for a moment you found out there is God and He did indeed create everything out of nothing. Would you then tell Him what He can and what He cannot do?

Most people are good, law-abiding citizens.

What is good? If there is no God, where you get the objective morality from? If you for example argue that caring for each other is a good thing, why is it a good thing? Who says it's a good thing? If a killer comes along and says that he needs to murder you in order to survive, why is that a bad thing? Because if there is no God, there is no moral compass. If there is no external reference and authoritative unchanging referent you get that opinion from, it's just something you feel. The fact that we know murder is bad, and caring for each other is good, is an evidence of God.
If we look at all the diverse cultures cultures, we see they all agree on basic morality. How do you explain that basic morality? If you say that it is who we are, then what if Putin comes along and says he wants to be selfish and take everything for myself and I have to kill you to do that, why is that objectively wrong? Where you get your objective standard from? If you say that there is objective good, then you are getting that from God. Just because we know morality, it does not explain where it comes from.

The creation itself. Why is there laws of physics? And where did they come from? Why does the universe, if there is no God, behave according to laws of physics? Who designed these laws? Why is there maths equations? Why is there a gravity equation? Why is there an energy equation? Where do these things come from? How can there be something out of nothing? How do you explain life? How can nothing produce life?
Even if evolution were true, what laws that are driving evolution, where do they come from?

If you say there is no God, then life is just a coincidence, and so is your brain, how can you then trust your brain, how can you trust your conclusions and judgement? If you say we can trust our minds, that's the effect, what caused that? We trust ourselves because we were created, if we were not, why do people trust each other when everything is just random and nothing has any meaning? If you can trust your thoughts, then it is because your brain was designed. It is the reason why we trust our computers for example. Would you trust a computer if it was not designed?

C.S Lewis once said this:

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”​

Can you explain why our bodies are so complex? How can an eye be made up of 30 major components and billions of atoms if there is no Creator and life is just a coincidence? Did you know there are 50 different proteins for blood clotting and if just one fails to activate when we injure ourselves, we will bleed out? And we can do this so many organs in our bodies.

Most people are good, law-abiding citizens.

Are you sure about that? Then why half the marriages end in divorce? Why do we constantly cheat on each other, we hurt each other? You will argue that it is legal, well I'd rather get punched even beaten up that get cheated on. If we are so good, then why does everyone lie? Why there is 50 million abortions a year? Why is there so many murders? Why so many wars? Why is there drug, alcohol and porn addiction? Why there are millions of kidnappings happening, why is there constant racism, why are children constantly disobeying there parents? I know you will argue why telling a lie deserves hell, because it is sin to lie, and wages for sin are death. Why? Because God is good and every sin must be punished, and even the smallest sin is deadly, even the smallest sin is like saying to God we know better than Him and thus making ourself to be like God. And if you say there is no God, well then nothing mattes so what does it matter when someone hurts you anyway, And why do you even have feelings, where did they come from?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Thanks for responding but not sure I agree with this. When we are born we have no concept of God so it follows that we don't have a belief in him either.

This passage from Romans 1 indicates all men have a built-in knowledge of God

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

God holds all men responsible for their refusal to acknowledge what He has shown them of Himself in His creation. Even those who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel, have received a clear witness about the existence and character of God and have suppressed it.

This passage from Romans 2 indicates we all possess a knowledge of basic morality.

Romans 2:4-5 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

In other words, you don’t have to be a Christian to believe in God, or believe that there is a right and wrong way to see and do things.

 

[Aubergine99]

The fact that God created humankind in His image and invested us with the right to exercise dominion means that we are stewards of His creation and accountable to Him for how well we care for what He has made.

When God created everything out of nothing, everything was good. There was nothing bad, and God gave us choice to either obey Him or not. Why is the disobedience of God evil? Because it's saying that we know better than God, and this is pride, because we think we are more than we are. But we had a choice, we could have freely obey God.

So it is just your subjective opinion, not a fact. Why do we then help criminals responsible for their crimes and we punish them?


Does God not have a right to create anything He wants? Imagine just for a moment you found out there is God and He did indeed create everything out of nothing. Would you then tell Him what He can and what He cannot do?


What is good? If there is no God, where you get the objective morality from? If you for example argue that caring for each other is a good thing, why is it a good thing? Who says it's a good thing? If a killer comes along and says that he needs to murder you in order to survive, why is that a bad thing? Because if there is no God, there is no moral compass. If there is no external reference and authoritative unchanging referent you get that opinion from, it's just something you feel. The fact that we know murder is bad, and caring for each other is good, is an evidence of God.
If we look at all the diverse cultures cultures, we see they all agree on basic morality. How do you explain that basic morality? If you say that it is who we are, then what if Putin comes along and says he wants to be selfish and take everything for myself and I have to kill you to do that, why is that objectively wrong? Where you get your objective standard from? If you say that there is objective good, then you are getting that from God. Just because we know morality, it does not explain where it comes from.

The creation itself. Why is there laws of physics? And where did they come from? Why does the universe, if there is no God, behave according to laws of physics? Who designed these laws? Why is there maths equations? Why is there a gravity equation? Why is there an energy equation? Where do these things come from? How can there be something out of nothing? How do you explain life? How can nothing produce life?
Even if evolution were true, what laws that are driving evolution, where do they come from?

If you say there is no God, then life is just a coincidence, and so is your brain, how can you then trust your brain, how can you trust your conclusions and judgement? If you say we can trust our minds, that's the effect, what caused that? We trust ourselves because we were created, if we were not, why do people trust each other when everything is just random and nothing has any meaning? If you can trust your thoughts, then it is because your brain was designed. It is the reason why we trust our computers for example. Would you trust a computer if it was not designed?

C.S Lewis once said this:

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”​

Can you explain why our bodies are so complex? How can an eye be made up of 30 major components and billions of atoms if there is no Creator and life is just a coincidence? Did you know there are 50 different proteins for blood clotting and if just one fails to activate when we injure ourselves, we will bleed out? And we can do this so many organs in our bodies.



Are you sure about that? Then why half the marriages end in divorce? Why do we constantly cheat on each other, we hurt each other? You will argue that it is legal, well I'd rather get punched even beaten up that get cheated on. If we are so good, then why does everyone lie? Why there is 50 million abortions a year? Why is there so many murders? Why so many wars? Why is there drug, alcohol and inappropriate content addiction? Why there are millions of kidnappings happening, why is there constant racism, why are children constantly disobeying there parents? I know you will argue why telling a lie deserves hell, because it is sin to lie, and wages for sin are death. Why? Because God is good and every sin must be punished, and even the smallest sin is deadly, even the smallest sin is like saying to God we know better than Him and thus making ourself to be like God. And if you say there is no God, well then nothing mattes so what does it matter when someone hurts you anyway, And why do you even have feelings, where did they come from?

Why do you ask so many questions at once? It will take me a while to respond. Pls be patient.

 

[Aubergine99]

Wrong....

In your opinion only.

 

[Aubergine99]

You have sufficient evidence for Christianity. If you don't, ask me and I would be happy to provide some evidence for you.

Christianity does not prove the existence of God. Some people even state that Jesus was fictitious. Pls provide me with evidence. The Bible does not prove anything to me.