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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Mandami effect

It was pretty subtle, but that was a sly reference to Obama, wasn't it?
What’s funny is now they actually got a real one.

I can’t wait to hear years from now how much better Mamdani enforced the law in NYC than his eventual Republican successor.
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Morality without Absolute Morality

Thanks to evolution, almost all humans have been ingrained with an innate sense of acceptable human behavior.

We can then use this 'innate sense' of acceptable human behavior as an OBJECTIVE standard.

In other words, morality is that which falls within acceptable human behavior, and humans are specifically endowed by nature with an ability to recognize and apply this standard.

You're welcome, you now have an objective standard for morality.
That's a whole lot of assertion, and nothing really substantive.
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Is there a Biblical mandate on what the role of government should be?

One of the central disagreements in politics today seems to boil down to what we think the proper function of government is. Is it to preserve individual liberties? Or is it to ensure that every citizen has their basic needs met? Some other central function? My question is, what light does the Bible shed on this question? If we look at the structure of Israel in the OT, what can we learn about how God intends for governments to function and what their mandate is?

I have my thoughts, but I want to hear some other opinions before divulging them.
Thanks for providing such an important topic. I have a few comments but first will outline an area of government that I think is too neglected by Christians concerning the proper role of government. This concerns the regulation of industry, taxes and human rights among other things. The reason such things are important is that no society is always just or equal. I also go a step further and suggest how God is highly involved in correcting imbalances and injustices.

Many might be surprised that Martin Luther suggested the following. ""Just" or "Right" Profit: He argued that the price of goods should be what is "right and proper," covering the merchant's costs and allowing for a "decent living". The amount of profit should allow the merchant to maintain their societal standing without becoming excessively wealthy through the exploitation of others." (Google AI)

Wow, so here is the guy that reformed the church as to what righteousness entails telling us that there is morality in business and overcharging is a sin. I think too that excessive usury is a sin. Not just loaning money to a brother, but excessive profits or interest is condemned.

Proverbs 28:8 "Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor."

The U.S. government (and others) have leadership and a structure that is too involved in upholding the idea that the love of money is to be praised and not tempered. This plays out mainly in regulations, anti-trust actions, and corporate taxes (among other things) So, I think that God gets involved and over times He makes corrections. Mamdani in a sense is God's will. God does not endorse him, but he is a tool of punishment for unfettered capitalism. God uses people to correct evil. I have said this repeatedly in other threads, that God is looking at America's capitalism and materialistic tendencies, and out of His love is going to correct the first the church, and also those that are too extreme in their pursuit of money. More importantly, he is not going to just do that on the left, but he is looking especially at Christians who are too far right, that anyone who is unbalanced is going to have to answer for that. If I may go further, any prejudicial treatment of NYC will only backfire. It will give them excuses as to why they failed. Far better too if we worry about our own use of government repression of monies than worry about NYC.

There are other Godly principles at work that we should see HIM as absolutely amazing.

Consider the law of sowing and reaping on America's issues with immigration. Would I be wrong to suggest the U.S. handling of the lies and broken promises to Native Americans are at least part of the root cause of the current immigration crisis? Is it ironic that Noem, the Governor that was so embattled with tribes in her state that many banned her from their reservations, is now embattled and frustrated with illegals and their supporters? That the Governor of the state whose lands are still in disagreement and not settled fully today is the same person who leads to charge against illegals. Are some so self-righteous that they do not consider that their ancestors were worse than the illegals we have today, yet they enjoy the fruits of such theft and condemn others who just want to live on another's land? No I am not arguing the case for illegals to stay. But, yes, we should have compassion and not angst for some illegals that are doing far less than what our ancestors did. Removing families in secret, failing to give due process and violating even Federal court orders are not compassionate or Godly.

Too many think that God is not involved in stuff like immigration or even Mamdani's election. Trump and now Mandomi are signs to me that the age of extreme capitalism and the love of money are coming to an end. Neither leader seems balanced in the role of money and how government directs it but God will correct both extremes in the process will have both fail.

So what is the government mandate in the role of a modern economy? To be just not only in areas of profit, but in the government siding with "the people" in constructing a fair society that supports all classes, not just the poor or the rich. I am not saying progressives are off the hook on God's role in government. God is quite clear on laziness or dependency which some on the left provide welfare with not enough consideration of who should be eligible.

Proverbs 6:10-11: "A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest—and poverty will come on you like a robber, and your need like an armed man".

So America has problems with both extremes and a correction seems likely that not only addresses areas of need, but also addresses the heart of a people. Rather than bemoan Trump or Mandami we need to see God refocusing on the role of government but the more important focus with our hearts.

There are many specifics out of balance in the role of government but here are just some off the top of my head.

There is too much government debt. This violates God's principles. he says: The borrower is slave to the lender.
The role of government is to:
Treat all persons with dignity and respect.
Be benevolent and kind in serving citizens.
be free from deception and corruption
be efficient and good stewards of resources.
not be self-serving
To be fair and eliminate favoritism and injustice

The role of government is to be a restraining force for evil. Instead of doing that in some ways the U.S. government has become the face of evil. Yes, it has a great constitution (when it is followed), America has a rich history, it even currently has some admirable qualities but it's role in society is not balanced on God's word.

It would be wrong to suggest that God does not give quite a bit of latitude on what is the best form and exact role of government. It is obvious that there is even Christian disagreement in the role of government for health and welfare, for crime, for immigration, for taxes. God does have some preferences but man likely is not too wise, in seeing all the unintended consequences, that in come cases might last for generations for a nation the institutes poor policies.

In addition to the role of government I think we need to look at the character of government too. Why? because it is from this character that the proper role of government will be developed. Nearly every failure in the role of government comes from the failures in the character of its leaders. The constitution and amendments try to address such failures, the division of powers, the use of federalism in the system; these all try to make a nation maintain good governance and a proper role. So a firm role of government is to abide in the constitution, amending it when improvements can be made. The role of government is to seek to uphold the Constitution, not usurp it. Yes, some on the left and the right do try to twist it to fit their preferences. While there can be varying interpretations of the Constitution and laws, it is evil for any leader to knowingly seek to violate a just constitution especially after haven taken an oath to defend it. God bless!
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Anti-Muslim Bigotry Directed at Mamdani

Several of the cities mentioned in the bible, including one of the Seven Churches of the Revelation, were sacked by Turkish armies on Jihad.

Surely Turkic, not Turkish?

Also, Christians armies have sacked cities mentioned in the Bible. While on crusades. Including Jerusalem and Antioch.

So, if that's the standard were meant to judge on, its pot meet kettle im afraid.
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Am I Weird, Or Is He Weird?

Speaking of weird behavior...
You asked for feedback. I gave it.

You guys don’t spend time alone. You are casual friends, at best. You’ve hung out one on one 5-6 times over 10 years, so once every other year. You haven’t spoken to his wife, can’t name his daughters, haven’t spoken to them once, admit you have no interest in hanging around his family… Then you ask to hang around his family by watching a child you don’t know, who doesn’t know you, play a game. And the excuse is that because you casually mentioned half a decade ago you like kids sports, he shouldn’t think it’s weird.

Ignoring that I can’t begin to tell you what a person I see every other year told me 5 years ago about their hobbies, to assume they’d want you at a family event when you have an ancillary relationship to him and zero relationship with his family, yeah, asking to go to the sporting event if a kid you don’t know with siblings who’s names you can’t remember and a wife you don’t know is weird. Being offended a person you barely know can’t remember your kind of random hobby and doesn't see why you belong at an event with his family is also weird.

They said, his response? Weird. Maybe he was surprised by the deeply random request, maybe he felt weirded out, or maybe he is socially awkward and can’t be direct, but he could have been more direct in his response. And if he feels uncomfortable with you, he should just stop hanging out with you… Though being alone once every two years over a decade is a pretty solid sign he’s not into the friendship.

This whole thing just reads as two socially awkward people doing socially awkward people things.
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Trump federalizing DC police, deploying National Guard in capital crime crackdown

Once they see someone else get away with it, others will do it.
Of course. People will be turning up with sandwiches, hot dogs, sausage rolls, meat pies, croissants...I mean, where will this madness end.
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The Mandami effect

^_^ Funny how the going always gets tough under Communism.
Can you guys at least make up your minds and pick if it’s communism or Islamism he’s supposed to be instituting when he gets into office? It’s hard to tell which one you guys are more irrationally scared of happening in a city, I’m pretty sure the right had been railing against for years now well before Mamdani came onto the scene.
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Maine elects woman convicted of killing Canadian tourist to city council: ‘So broken’

I don't know about that--there are quite a few people with Christian Nationalist aspirations in the Republican Party. Mike Johnson, for instance, and Pete Hesgeth and many more besides.
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Once you're saved, you don't matter anymore

After I was saved, I attended Baptist churches and non-denominational churches. It seems like at the two Baptist churches, whether it was from leadership or other church members, they had this attitude that once you were saved, you didn't matter anymore. What I mean is that the church has too much of a focus on saving lost people. So if a Christian needs something or wants something, it doesn't matter, because "there are more important things to focus on and there's people going to Hell".

Is this anyone else's experience? Are the pastors and/or leadership being taught something in seminary school/Christian colleges/Bible colleges that is encouraging this kind of behavior? Why is it okay to neglect other parts of the church because "people are going to Hell and need to hear the Gospel"?
Whether one attributes it to "gifts of the Spirit", or whatever else, there are people I think of as Evangelists, who's whole mindset seems to be about preaching the gospel, reaching the lost, etc etc. These often even think that is the reason we are here on earth—to add random souls to the fold. It's almost like a club whose charter is to add members to the club. One I know promised God to bring one person a day to the Lord, has developed a method, seems to even think in terms of "closing the sale".

When these people become the leadership of a church, it can get out of hand. Just saying.
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Vance tells Marines they’ll get paid despite ‘Schumer shutdown’

I always thought the more apropos solution to these shutdowns would be...
At 7 days: suspend pay for congressmen and senators (and their staffers) until it gets resolved.
At 14 days: actual fines imposed on them
At 30 days: failure to reach an agreement means governors have the option to call a special election to replace them if they so choose (the same way they do when one of them vacates a seat)


As much as I dislike the "4th branch of government" (the bureaucracy), their pay getting frozen doesn't do anything to bring a swifter end to these shutdowns as it doesn't instill the right sense of urgency in the legislature.

The notion that there's a shutdown, and outlets are reporting "well, no agreement was reached, so they'll be back in 5 days to restart negotiations" is unacceptable. If there's outstanding assignments that are urgent and time sensitive at my job, I don't get to bail on Thursday and say "well, have a good long weekend, we'll pick this back up on Tuesday", it's more of a "it's gonna be a busy weekend, put on a pot of coffee".
I agree.

If government is disfunctional, that's not anyone's fault but their own.
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The Mandami effect

It seems strange but also on brand to me, that certain people don't believe that there ARE some rich people who don't mind contributing to their communities. They see folks like Mr Trillion Dollar Pants and see how little he helps anyone and they protect him from adminishment 'because he can do what he wants with his money'.

Rockefeller Plaza
Guggenheim
Carnegie

Of course that was when tax rates were 90% and that kind of behaviour was encouraged by rates like that.
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B flat B♭

This maybe but I still don't think God placed the sun 93 million miles away - Think about it!
You obviously don't think about it. You simply dismiss it without any thought at all.
Nope - He set the sun in the firmament/sky/expanse, oh yeah also the moon and the stars. Read all about it!

View attachment 372790

Genesis 1:16-18
Once again you insult us.
We do read and believe Genesis 1 as it was meant to be understood. We've been over this multiple times in several threads yet you post this again as if it has never been explained to you. I hope it is because you have a memory problem and not deliberate because the latter would be decidedly un-christlike.
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