Bob S

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I do not see anything wrong with what the Prophet has said; men and women (outside of the OT, where the prophets are authenticated in Christ should not be used as authorities), should not be used as authorities.
She wrote that if we do not observe the Sabbath we will be lost. Do you believe that? Do you keep the Sabbath according to Is18:13? If you tell me you do then I have found the first one that does.
It was the Pharisees who made the Law a heavy burden,
Blame it on the Pharisees, not that they were not guilty, but Israel as a nation was doomed to fail. That is why God devised the plan of Salvation before the foundation of the Earth.

and caused many to fail,
Man is guilty of his own actions
but what will be the plight of those who abrogate the Law, and how is this different to the Pharisees making the Law distasteful, causing most to not enter in. Itis possible to Keep the Law or parts of it,
Why then does all mankind need Jesus? Are you still blaming the Pharisees for your failures?
at the same time disregard God. Solomon said it is more profitable to keep the Law than not, in this life, even when God is disregarded.
Solomon lived under the Law, we don't.
 
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sparow

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i could have used "I' but that would sound possessive and you would still comment negatively. Even Martin Luther didn't understand James. James was referring to good deeds not the works of the old covenant expired covenant given only to Israel.

Outside what covenant? Mankind is under the new and better covenant of Grace. The old covenant of works of that covenant have been abrogated. Read the writings of Paul. Gentiles were never under the dictates of the old covenant laws. What makes you believe we now are?

There are two WE, there is WE who keep the commandments of God and have faith based on Jesus's teaching, and who will receive the seal of God, the Law written on our mind (to be raised perfect on the last day), as per the new or renewed covenant. Then there is the WE who do not keep the commandments, who use Jesus's name to hide their repose, but wear their own garments and eat their own food (which is what they call the new covenant), which is their endless list of excuses for not keeping the commandments. Theirs will be the mark of the beast, unless they repent, time is running out, Armageddon could start any day.


I am very sure Luther was not referring to the works of the old covenant, that was never a problem in the Catholic Church; I do not know what the Catholic Church called good works, only that the Pope is in place of Christ. James would have included good deeds as a subset of the works he referred to; there is no list of what works are required, there is only all of the OT, the NT is the fulfilment, further revelation of the old covenant (The covenant of God is neither old or young, but is ageless, it has eternal life, it defines God) and the covenant, old/new/renewed, will not be fully fulfilled until after Jesus returns.


I don't think Paul supports your view, even if he did, Jesus is my teacher, in both OT and NT, He does not deceive the very elect.
 
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sparow

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She wrote that if we do not observe the Sabbath we will be lost. Do you believe that? Do you keep the Sabbath according to Is18:13? If you tell me you do then I have found the first one that does.

Blame it on the Pharisees, not that they were not guilty, but Israel as a nation was doomed to fail. That is why God devised the plan of Salvation before the foundation of the Earth.


Man is guilty of his own actions

Why then does all mankind need Jesus? Are you still blaming the Pharisees for your failures?

Solomon lived under the Law, we don't.

It does not bother me that she said that; there would be context that you have omitted, the WE there would refer to her congregation. I shall add, anyone who has pondered the Sabbath issue is without excuse, regarding what day. I do not know that the SDA keep the Sabbath, they keep the day of course; They would first need to ENTER INTO the covenant; they would need to give conscientious thought to that and understand what that means, and what exactly the Sabbath is a sign of, historically and prophetically.

<<Blame it on the Pharisees, not that they were not guilty, but Israel as a nation was doomed to fail. That is why God devised the plan of Salvation before the foundation of the Earth.>>


I am impressed by the way you twist the word of God. I think we can say for most part Israel trod the sanctuary of God underfoot, but they had their good moments; they set up the types for which Christ is now setting up the anti-types; Israel crashed often, and a remnant would come out of Israel and renew the covenant. What about Christians, have they ever trodden the sanctuary of God underfoot.

The way that I understand Dan 8:13,14. the sanctuary is trodden underfoot for 2300 years. Is it still Israel treading the sanctuary underfoot or is it Christians, or both?

I acknowledge the Sabbath because God said to keep it and the law cannot be changed.

I do not know why you quote Isa 18:13.

You should read Isa 56:2-6, Isa 58:9-13, Isa 66:22-24.
 
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Bob S

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It does not bother me that she said that; there would be context that you have omitted, the WE there would refer to her congregation. I shall add, anyone who has pondered the Sabbath issue is without excuse, regarding what day. I do not know that the SDA keep the Sabbath, they keep the day of course; They would first need to ENTER INTO the covenant; they would need to give conscientious thought to that and understand what that means, and what exactly the Sabbath is a sign of, historically and prophetically.

<<Blame it on the Pharisees, not that they were not guilty, but Israel as a nation was doomed to fail. That is why God devised the plan of Salvation before the foundation of the Earth.>>


I am impressed by the way you twist the word of God. I think we can say for most part Israel trod the sanctuary of God underfoot, but they had their good moments;
Always the big "but" aye. I suppose great dictators had their "good moments" too. Israel's good times was not enough now was it?
they set up the types for which Christ is now setting up the anti-types; Israel crashed often, and a remnant would come out of Israel and renew the covenant.
Are you really reading that into scripture? Renew the old covenant with all of those ritual demands. Israelites are saved the same way Christians are saved.
What about Christians, have they ever trodden the sanctuary of God underfoot.
I am sorry to have to agree with you. I wish all Christians would heed Jesus command to love others as He loves us.
The way that I understand Dan 8:13,14. the sanctuary is trodden underfoot for 2300 years. Is it still Israel treading the sanctuary underfoot or is it Christians, or both?
That understanding and the "Investigative Judgment" are teaching from a prophet that has over and over been proven to be false. But like the Israelites those who follow her teachings have to this day a veil covering their eyes. Reading her writings we wouldn't know what is truth and what is completely false.
I acknowledge the Sabbath because God said to keep it and the law cannot be changed.
Where do you get that thee Law cannot be changed? That is just another Cliche SDAs use to satisfy the real fact that the Laws of the old covenant were only temporary until Jesus. Read 2Cor3:6-12 without you ellen glasses on.
I do not know why you quote Isa 18:13.

You should read Isa 56:2-6, Isa 58:9-13, Isa 66:22-24.
I apologize sparow, I meant Is 58:13
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Those words were directed to one nation, Israel. Jacob was not the father to Gentiles and Gentiles were never given a promise like all the promises given to Israel. All of those promises ended at Calvary when the covenant given to Israel ended and Jesus ushered in the new covenant and ratified with His own blood. Remember the covenant given Israel was an "if" covenant. See EX19:5-6 for proof of my statement.

Actually, you are acknowledging something that was never given to you unless you became a Jew. Now even Jews are not under the covenant given to them and ended because they did not keep it, so even though you would claim to be a Jew you would not be subject to the old covenant. And actually you are denying what Jesus did at Calvary by putting yourself under what Jesus removed.
 
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sparow

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Always the big "but" aye. I suppose great dictators had their "good moments" too. Israel's good times was not enough now was it?

Are you really reading that into scripture? Renew the old covenant with all of those ritual demands. Israelites are saved the same way Christians are saved.

I am sorry to have to agree with you. I wish all Christians would heed Jesus command to love others as He loves us.

That understanding and the "Investigative Judgment" are teaching from a prophet that has over and over been proven to be false. But like the Israelites those who follow her teachings have to this day a veil covering their eyes. Reading her writings we wouldn't know what is truth and what is completely false.

Where do you get that thee Law cannot be changed? That is just another Cliche SDAs use to satisfy the real fact that the Laws of the old covenant were only temporary until Jesus. Read 2Cor3:6-12 without you ellen glasses on.

I apologize sparow, I meant Is 58:13
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Those words were directed to one nation, Israel. Jacob was not the father to Gentiles and Gentiles were never given a promise like all the promises given to Israel. All of those promises ended at Calvary when the covenant given to Israel ended and Jesus ushered in the new covenant and ratified with His own blood. Remember the covenant given Israel was an "if" covenant. See EX19:5-6 for proof of my statement.

Actually, you are acknowledging something that was never given to you unless you became a Jew. Now even Jews are not under the covenant given to them and ended because they did not keep it, so even though you would claim to be a Jew you would not be subject to the old covenant. And actually you are denying what Jesus did at Calvary by putting yourself under what Jesus removed.

I believe you would make a good Muslim, they believe the Jews failed, then the Christians failed, and so the need for Mohammad; but the thing is God has not failed, but everything is going according to what was known and planned before creation right down to the great and terrible day of the Lord, the Lord's day, and the kingdom of God.

I doubt that ritual demands were ever intended to save anyone, they were intended to teach, prophesy and become building blocks for the kingdom of God, or for the house God is building called the House of Israel.

Investigative judgement seems to be an interpretation (plus, fine detail added) of scripture; I never encountered it during my time with SDA. There is that future time when those of the first resurrection judge those of the second resurrection, one would presume there would be investigation; if the SDA were at fault it would be their assumption (if this is the case) that they will be the church that would be doing the Judging.

Your hatred of the SDA seems to be distorting your vision. That the Law cannot change is to do with logic and reason; the Prophets say God does not change, the covenant, including the Law, defines God, such that we see the God of Israel is provable beyond rhetoric from Pagan Gods; that he would presume to change God's Law is how the anti-Christ is identified.

God has only dealt with Israel, but for the benefit for any who would come; there are only 12 gates into the New Jerusalem, one for each of the twelve tribes, outside there is only Gog and his armies. I don't use Paul as an authority, but he said to his little children, “Ye are Israel”.
 
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Bob S

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I believe you would make a good Muslim,
I fear that you cannot stand to hear the truth, so you revert to unwise categorizing. What a shame you cannot debate without using hurtfulness.


they believe the Jews failed,
If they believe Israel failed, then they have something correct.
then the Christians failed,
All Christians have failed. Only through the Power of Jesus Blood are all of us able to stand before the Father spotless.
they believe the Jews failed, then the Christians failed, and so the need for Mohammad;
So, with that bit of undocumented knowledge you have taken it upon yourself to categorize me? May the Good Lord help you.
but the thing is God has not failed, but everything is going according to what was known and planned before creation right down to the great and terrible day of the Lord, the Lord's day, and the kingdom of God.
If you are aware of that fact, then you should know what I write is according to scripture.
I doubt that ritual demands were ever intended to save anyone, they were intended to teach, prophesy and become building blocks for the kingdom of God, or for the house God is building called the House of Israel.
Israel had its chance to become a great nation and they failed completely.
Investigative judgement seems to be an interpretation (plus, fine detail added) of scripture; I never encountered it during my time with SDA.
So, you left Adventism, why? If you didn't learn about the Investigative Judgment, then you must have left before being fully indoctrinated.
There is that future time when those of the first resurrection judge those of the second resurrection, one would presume there would be investigation; if the SDA were at fault it would be their assumption (if this is the case) that they will be the church that would be doing the Judging.
God knows every soul that is living and has lived. It is absurd belief that Jesus has been in a room investigating those who claim to be righteous. Since 1844 supposedly Jesus has been in Heaven doing just that. What a disservice to Jesus.
Your hatred of the SDA seems to be distorting your vision.
Hate??? Let me tell you something that is not a secret. I love my SDA brothers and sisters. They are wonderful people who have been fed falsehood. Would it be wrong to abhor falsehood?
That the Law cannot change is to do with logic and reason; the Prophets say God does not change, the covenant, including the Law, defines God, such that we see the God of Israel is provable beyond rhetoric from Pagan Gods; that he would presume to change God's Law is how the anti-Christ is identified.
That is complete nonsense. There is so much scriptural evidence that God has negated the covenant given only to Israel and has given all mankind a new and better covenant and this evidence is found in the New Testament. One only has to open his eyes to see the difference. Praise God for His mercy.
God has only dealt with Israel, but for the benefit for any who would come; there are only 12 gates into the New Jerusalem, one for each of the twelve tribes, outside there is only Gog and his armies. I don't use Paul as an authority, but he said to his little children, “Ye are Israel”.
You do not use Paul as an authority? No wonder you are not able to comprehend the real truth. Well, I do use his writings, as God's ambassador to all who seek God Paul's writings tell us the real truth. Man has distorted the Word, so we should never rely on anything but the Holy Spirit and the Word.
 
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Gary K

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I fear that you cannot stand to hear the truth, so you revert to unwise categorizing. What a shame you cannot debate without using hurtfulness.



If they believe Israel failed, then they have something correct.

All Christians have failed. Only through the Power of Jesus Blood are all of us able to stand before the Father spotless.

So, with that bit of undocumented knowledge you have taken it upon yourself to categorize me? May the Good Lord help you.

If you are aware of that fact, then you should know what I write is according to scripture.

Israel had its chance to become a great nation and they failed completely.

So, you left Adventism, why? If you didn't learn about the Investigative Judgment, then you must have left before being fully indoctrinated.

God knows every soul that is living and has lived. It is absurd belief that Jesus has been in a room investigating those who claim to be righteous. Since 1844 supposedly Jesus has been in Heaven doing just that. What a disservice to Jesus.

Hate??? Let me tell you something that is not a secret. I love my SDA brothers and sisters. They are wonderful people who have been fed falsehood. Would it be wrong to abhor falsehood?

That is complete nonsense. There is so much scriptural evidence that God has negated the covenant given only to Israel and has given all mankind a new and better covenant and this evidence is found in the New Testament. One only has to open his eyes to see the difference. Praise God for His mercy.

You do not use Paul as an authority? No wonder you are not able to comprehend the real truth. Well, I do use his writings, as God's ambassador to all who seek God Paul's writings tell us the real truth. Man has distorted the Word, so we should never rely on anything but the Holy Spirit and the Word.
Explain the parable of the 10 virgins in the context of the end times as that is the context Jesus gave it in.
 
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sparow

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I fear that you cannot stand to hear the truth, so you revert to unwise categorizing. What a shame you cannot debate without using hurtfulness.



If they believe Israel failed, then they have something correct.

All Christians have failed. Only through the Power of Jesus Blood are all of us able to stand before the Father spotless.

So, with that bit of undocumented knowledge you have taken it upon yourself to categorize me? May the Good Lord help you.

If you are aware of that fact, then you should know what I write is according to scripture.

Israel had its chance to become a great nation and they failed completely.

So, you left Adventism, why? If you didn't learn about the Investigative Judgment, then you must have left before being fully indoctrinated.

God knows every soul that is living and has lived. It is absurd belief that Jesus has been in a room investigating those who claim to be righteous. Since 1844 supposedly Jesus has been in Heaven doing just that. What a disservice to Jesus.

Hate??? Let me tell you something that is not a secret. I love my SDA brothers and sisters. They are wonderful people who have been fed falsehood. Would it be wrong to abhor falsehood?

That is complete nonsense. There is so much scriptural evidence that God has negated the covenant given only to Israel and has given all mankind a new and better covenant and this evidence is found in the New Testament. One only has to open his eyes to see the difference. Praise God for His mercy.

You do not use Paul as an authority? No wonder you are not able to comprehend the real truth. Well, I do use his writings, as God's ambassador to all who seek God Paul's writings tell us the real truth. Man has distorted the Word, so we should never rely on anything but the Holy Spirit and the Word.

I do not believe you are that thin skinned, now you are avoiding the issue like a politician. Like Islam, you want Israel to fail, and you see that as important; I think the Jews never had a feasible chance in the first place, but God used them probably, among many other points, to prove that without God they would fail. Now, like Paul, you say, it wasn't the Jews fault, the Law failed, thinking this would not offend God.

Sin is important when it is defined by the Law of God, when the Law of the covenant is abrogated sin becomes defined by the Law of some other God and some other covenant, having nothing to do with the God of Israel. Sin is something God can fix, he can raise his people up perfect on the last day; but God has determined not to raise up to eternal life those who eat their own food and wear their own garments.

What yard stick do you use when you say Israel is not/was not a great nation, they had to be great first in order to be brought down low in the second place; do you consider the descendants of Israel to be 15000000, 50000000 or numbering the sands of the sea, do they include the dead as well as the living. For those of Israel who individually failed the new covenant is primarily their second chance. God chose Israel for a purpose, as an instrument, God did not fail, as a result all of mankind is with out excuse.

I went to the SDA for a Revelation Seminar and continued attending their church for a while, I was told that to be an Adventist I had to believe 4 things, two of which I had a problem with; when they began counting me as a member I used my conscience as an excuse to leave; the real reason was I had problems with stress.

Indoctrination is just another word that means teaching. There is good indoctrination and bad indoctrination; the teaching of God is good indoctrination, based on scripture becomes dangerous when it displaces scripture. The SDA acknowledges that “Investigative Judgement” is based on scripture, which makes it a doctrine of men, which is not automatically bad, but beware.

You seem to imply that God's judgement does not require or consume time. While God has allocated seven thousand years to the task, those of the first resurrection are more chosen than judged and these take a thousand years to judge those of the second resurrection.

1844 was a stuff up, yet it was an awakening, it should have inspired thinking in all the churches, thinking like, you have 490 years, then messiah the prince”. The SDA see them selves as a remnant that came out, and they may have been but remnants do not remain remnants, nor do they always renew the covenant.

I disagree with where the SDA start counting the 2300 years, these should continue on from the 490 years, reaching through to the year 6000 on the Jewish calendar, the six one thousand year days of creation, producing the called and chosen.

The SDA misuse the 2300 period, they use it as a length of time, from one place until the cleansing of the sanctuary, and they begin measuring from the command to rebuild Jerusalem, the sanctuary being cleansed in 1844. one part of their error I believe is they think the term “the abomination of desolation” refers to a specific event rather it being a general term that can have other uses.

The 2300 years is not a line, it is a volume containing the abomination of desolation (the absence of God) and the treading of the sanctuary underfoot, and it begins with the cessation of the daily sacrifice when the curtain in the temple was ripped top to bottom. The cleansing of the sanctuary is part of the package of Christ's return.

<<That is complete nonsense. There is so much scriptural evidence that God has negated the covenant given only to Israel and has given all mankind a new and better covenant and this evidence is found in the New Testament. One only has to open his eyes to see the difference. Praise God for His mercy.>>

Nonsense to you, yes, but what most Christians call, ”new covenant” is a concoction of men, (based on scripture), which defines a fake God. You gamble your salvation on evidence, while rejecting the teaching of God.

The renewed covenant made with the lost sheep of Israel is better in three obvious ways: Jesus is mediator, people can look back and see proof, before people had to look forward at a promise, and some have knowledge of what is to come.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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1844 was a stuff up, yet it was an awakening, it should have inspired thinking in all the churches, thinking like, you have 490 years, then messiah the prince”. The SDA see them selves as a remnant that came out, and they may have been but remnants do not remain remnants, nor do they always renew the covenant.
22 million people I would say is not something that remained small and not all SDA's believe in the doctrine they claim they are part of, why there will be a great shakening. It's not denominations who will be saved, its people who believe in the right doctrine and live and do them.
The 2300 years is not a line, it is a volume containing the abomination of desolation (the absence of God) and the treading of the sanctuary underfoot, and it begins with the cessation of the daily sacrifice when the curtain in the temple was ripped top to bottom. The cleansing of the sanctuary is part of the package of Christ's return. one part of their error I believe is they think the term “the abomination of desolation” refers to a specific event rather it being a general term that can have other uses.
The “the abomination of desolation” is referred to the destruction of Jerusalem and has a Second application of a Future event and of course it has other symbolic meanings. When we do not have Christ or live as He asked through faith that leads to an abomination which leads to desolation i.e. lost.
 
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sparow

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22 million people I would say is not something that remained small and not all SDA's believe in the doctrine they claim they are part of, why there will be a great shakening. It's not denominations who will be saved, its people who believe in the right doctrine and live and do them.

The “the abomination of desolation” is referred to the destruction of Jerusalem and has a Second application of a Future event and of course it has other symbolic meanings. When we do not have Christ or live as He asked through faith that leads to an abomination which leads to desolation i.e. lost.

How do we disagree then; you say that the “abomination of desolation”, is a historical event and a future event; there are many understandings along this line, some see the man who causes the events as being the significance of the prophesy. I see the abomination of desolation, Dan 9:27, in two parts, first there is the desolation which itself is called an abomination and second, there is the string of abominations and the man that caused them leading up to the desolation. What constitutes the desolation is the absence of God; remember what the priest said when the curtain ripped, “the spirit of God has departed”. In the future the man and his abominations will induce the return of Christ, ending the desolation.


Matt 23:29-39,

38, Behold your house is left unto you desolate. 39, For I say unto you, ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.
 
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