Seeing : Salvation

[bbbbbbb]

How can I debate this masterful response! I LOVE IT! Well observed! Indeed How can we reconcile this (Do not speak of it; Musterion)? Perhaps you have answered "RECONCILIAITON/GRAFTING" in your last paragraph. Perhaps Faith, Hope and Love are dead towards the very Brethren that Paul's very heart is rended for at the beginning of Romans 9, all the way through to Romans 11. Perhaps there's a Mystery here?

Thank you for your kind response. Honestly, I was quite taken aback. I agree that there may be a Mystery here.

Now, to the next passage - II Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There seem to be two primary approaches to this verse. The first view, which I think is most popular, is that which associates it with John 3:16, but with an even wider application. The focus is on the last portion that God wills for all to come to repentance. If one takes that literally (for who, indeed, can resist the will of God) then the gates of Universalism are opened wide. Most people do not go down that road, however, and take the meaning of God's will to be His desire, divorced from any direct action on His part.

The second view is to examine the context. We have Peter comforting Christians who are enduring great persecution. One thing that helped (and, indeed, helps all Christians) is the certainty that God will accomplish His will. Toward that end, at the beginning of this chapter he goes into detail regarding unbelievers and their scoffing in relation to the return of Jesus Christ and the destruction of this world by intense heat.

In this verse he provides a solid application. What should Christians be doing now, based on God's promises? The focus, however, is not on the Christian, but on God's purpose. God is longsuffering to whom? To us, of course. The verse, as well as the context, is not of the world in general, but on believers. God's patience, during the days of Noah, came to an end with the destruction of all humanity, except Noah and his household, in the Flood. Likewise, God's longsuffering toward the unbelieving world will reach its final limit with destruction, not be water, but by fire.

I think the point being made here is not that God is any more interested or willing to save unbelievers either in the days of Noah or the present time, but that His longsuffering toward us believers such that He wills to all to come to repentance.

 

[Aviel]

The chair analogy is alive and well.... It's one thing to see "the chair". It's an entirely different matter to have faith that the chair is sufficient to hold ones weight! The chair holds us up, only if we have the Faith to sit in it.

What part of the believer is "One with God" and "In Christ'?

See that?

That is the CHRISTian........not the "body" and not the "mind" or the "feelings and emotions".

Only what is BORN AGAIN... is the ''new Creation", and because 99.9899% of people who claim to be a CHRISTian do not understand what i just wrote, that means that the majority of CHRISTian have no idea what it means to have become "made Righteous".

They are trying to DO THAT, vs, exist IN IT, as God has recreated them to be.. .already.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank you for your kind response. Honestly, I was quite taken aback. I agree that there may be a Mystery here.

Now, to the next passage - II Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There seem to be two primary approaches to this verse. The first view, which I think is most popular, is that which associates it with John 3:16, but with an even wider application. The focus is on the last portion that God wills for all to come to repentance. If one takes that literally (for who, indeed, can resist the will of God) then the gates of Universalism are opened wide. Most people do not go down that road, however, and take the meaning of God's will to be His desire, divorced from any direct action on His part.

The second view is to examine the context. We have Peter comforting Christians who are enduring great persecution. One thing that helped (and, indeed, helps all Christians) is the certainty that God will accomplish His will. Toward that end, at the beginning of this chapter he goes into detail regarding unbelievers and their scoffing in relation to the return of Jesus Christ and the destruction of this world by intense heat.

In this verse he provides a solid application. What should Christians be doing now, based on God's promises? The focus, however, is not on the Christian, but on God's purpose. God is longsuffering to whom? To us, of course. The verse, as well as the context, is not of the world in general, but on believers. God's patience, during the days of Noah, came to an end with the destruction of all humanity, except Noah and his household, in the Flood. Likewise, God's longsuffering toward the unbelieving world will reach its final limit with destruction, not be water, but by fire.

I think the point being made here is not that God is any more interested or willing to save unbelievers either in the days of Noah or the present time, but that His longsuffering toward us believers such that He wills to all to come to repentance.

I respect that you have done your due diligence to understand many Christian views! I don't fight Universalists, because many of them aren't saying what many people assume that they are saying. I Love the evaluations you have written here and sense that you have the humility to admit that we just don't really know how it will all end/begin all new .... and I find that refreshing too!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, my sibling in Jesus, who is well grounded in scripture, yet understanding that there "may" be hope for the hopeless.

I will say this much... some will actually try to kill Jesus and many will reject Him to His face upon His second coming. A very specific religion has eschatologically ensured this! It's one of the 3 Abrahamic Religions, but it isn't Christianity or Judaism. Billions have rejected the Son in their Heart's due to deception. I mean, outright rejected Him! It is sad.

 

[Grip Docility]

What part of the believer is "One with God" and "In Christ'?

See that?

That is the CHRISTian........not the "body" and not the "mind" or the "feelings and emotions".

Only what is BORN AGAIN... is the ''new Creation", and because 99.9899% of people who claim to be a CHRISTian do not understand what i just wrote, that means that the majority of CHRISTian have no idea what it means to have become "made Righteous".

They are trying to DO THAT, vs, exist IN IT, as God has recreated them to be.. .already.

We patiently await the promise of genuine righteousness, and the "seed" has to "die". Patience is "Suffering Silently". The Body is full of many that "Aren't Suffering Silently".

We either have to pass through physical death, or get snatched to obtain that promise. I never assume that it is the end of ages and just patiently wait for the day that I will cross over. In the mean time, God is awesome and I genuinely thank Him that we can meditate on HIS perfect ways.

 

[Aviel]

If one takes that literally (for who, indeed, can resist the will of God)

Hell received thousands today who "resisted God's will".

And if you take your bible and turn to the words of Jesus who said...>"not my will but your's FATHER, that i will do".

And that is AFTER Jesus asked God to free Him of the will of God, that is the "cup" of Judgment, that is the Cross of Christ that was coming for Him.

So, we see, that Unbelievers, for the last 2000 yrs, have "rejected God's will", and we see that Jesus asked to be FREED from God's will, and decided .. CHOSE to do it, .. when He didnt have do, but did it because of the "Joy set before Him"..

You can read about Jonah, and find out that God had to make Him do "God's will"...

You can read about Hebrews in Hebrews Chapter 6 and 10 who would NOT HAVE God's will, and willfully rejected it. .. . knowing it was God's will.

Paul calls these willful rejectors of God's will...>>"STIFF Necked".

You can read about these same JEWS in Hebrews 6 &10......in Acts 28:28, as that is the same group and Paul finished with them. and told them..>"Ok you wont HAVE GOD's WILL, so, i'll take Jesus and the Gospel to the GENTILES and they will have it".

But not all of them will, as some of them died and went to HELL, while you were reading my POST. @bbbbbbb .

 

[bbbbbbb]

I respect that you have done your due diligence to understand many Christian views! I don't fight Universalists, because many of them aren't saying what many people assume that they are saying. I Love the evaluations you have written here and sense that you have the humility to admit that we just don't really know how it will all end/begin all new .... and I find that refreshing too!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, my sibling in Jesus, who is well grounded in scripture, yet understanding that there "may" be hope for the hopeless.

I will say this much... some will actually try to kill Jesus and many will reject Him to His face upon His second coming. A very specific religion has eschatologically ensured this! It's one of the 3 Abrahamic Religions, but it isn't Christianity or Judaism. Billions have rejected the Son in their Heart's due to deception. I mean, outright rejected Him! It is sad.

Thank you once more. I certainly agree with your final paragraph. It is truly heart-rending to think that that one Arabic chap in the seventh century would be responsible for so much human misery and suffering, both in this life and the next.

Now, on to the third passage -

Joel 2:12 “Now, therefore,” says the Lord,
“Turn to Me with all your heart,
With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”
13 So rend your heart, and not your garments;
Return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and merciful,
Slow to anger, and of great kindness;
And He relents from doing harm.
14 Who knows if He will turn and relent,
And leave a blessing behind Him—
A grain offering and a drink offering
For the Lord your God?

This is a classic form of Old Testament prophecy. We see lots of it in both the major and the minor prophets. The scenario is that God has rejected Israel, as well as Judah, and has sent them into captivity for their sins. However, God has not entirely forgotten them (in wrath He has remembered mercy (cf. Hab. 3:2)) and has sent prophets both to chastise and to comfort them in their distress.

This passage, as well as the multitude of others like it, is addressed to God's covenant people, Israel, and not to the Gentiles. As far as God was concerned, Gentiles were simply instruments in His hands to accomplish His will (cf. Nebuchadnezzar). Although some, such as Pharaoh, might acknowledge (believe in) God, God was not in a covenant relationship with them. As a result, Gentiles were not even in God's picture. At best, God showed what is called "common grace" to mankind - provision of the basics for life - food, air, water, sunshine, etc. - but not the things associated with "covenant grace" which would include His divine protection and salvation, both in this life and the next.

We see clearly from scripture that, yes, God is abundant in mercy and grace to His people, and holy and righteous in His dealings with humanity in general. Thus, we Gentiles can only gain God's grace and mercy not through the covenant God made with Israel on Mount Sinai, but through the blood of the new covenant by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is the savior of all who call upon him.