Seeing : Salvation

[bbbbbbb]

The entire world is connected by Cell Phones, and Internet.

People who have no food or a home, have a Cell phone, generally speaking.
So, a Cell phone is going to connect everyone to "hearing the Gospel"..

So, thats one universal way..

Also, God will find a way to get the Good News of Salvation to you.........

Although you might assert that the entire world is connected by cell phones and internet, but you fail to understand that the 1.4 billion people of China are prevented from access to any information that the Communist Party of China deems to be against its interest. The net result is that the average Chinese person today knows about American Christmas festivities and about Santa Claus. This is primarily viewed as a curious foreign holiday celebrated by Americans, which is not unlike the Lunar New Year, which is celebrated by virtually all Chinese people.

What the average Chinese person does not know is anything regarding the person and work of Jesus Christ. While it is true that there are Christian churches operated by the Chinese Communist Party in virtually every city over one million people (and there are hundreds of them) the churches are viewed as being strange and foreign, much as Americans view mosques in their cities as being strange and foreign. The knowledge of the average American concerning Allah and Islam is similar. I daresay that if you were to ask an average American his thoughts regarding Twelver Shi'ism, you would be met with a completely blank stare.

One can argue that the average Chinese person has chosen to reject Jesus Christ and has chosen to go to hell, simply because they have not visited a Christian church nor have they purchased a Bible (or Q'ran in regard to Islam). However, I can assure you that it is no more a conscious, informed, decision on the part of the average Chinese person than a decision by an American not to visit the local mosque, or even hammam, or procure a Q'ran, is.

 

[Aviel]

Although you might assert that the entire world is connected by cell phones and internet, but you fail to understand that the 1.4 billion people of China are prevented

You should not believe everything you read on the internet or watch on TV, about "china"

Here is the reality.

Christians are allowed to worship in “official churches” registered with supervisory government agencies responsible for Protestantism and Catholicism. However, many Christians refuse this oversight and worship in underground churches.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You should not believe everything you read on the internet or watch on TV, about "china"

Here is the reality.

Christians are allowed to worship in “official churches” registered with supervisory government agencies responsible for Protestantism and Catholicism. However, many Christians refuse this oversight and worship in underground churches.

Have you been to China yourself? I have on multiple occasions at the invitation of unregistered (non-government-controlled) Christians. I know the situation probably as well as any American can.

The "underground" churches are actually known as "house" churches and some are actually quite visible with their own church buildings. The registered church buildings are definitely found in all cities over one million people, along with mosques and temples of the Buddhists, Daoists, Confucianists, and other religions.

Although one can assert (without any possible means of verification) that there are 80 million Christians in China that is a miniscule percentage of the 1.4 billion people of China. Many of these Christians are actually relatively biblically illiterate with many having embraced what is viewed as a foreign prosperity religion which promises to make them wealthy, healthy, and happy. There are many other prosperity religions in China, as well, and many professedly Christian people are syncretistic in their beliefs, maintaining in their homes ancestor altars with statues of the Buddha, a crucifix, and Mary. The concept is that by worshipping all of them, at least one might be real and the others fake, so it is best to hedge your bets, as it were. The end goal is not to enter heaven after death, but to obtain tangible, real things in this life. The Chinese people are quite pragmatic as a whole.

As I said previously, one can easily believe that every Chinese person who is not a Christian, is so because they have consciously rejected Jesus Christ simply because they have not availed themselves of entering a church building or obtaining a Bible and reading it. But, when was the last time you availed yourself of entering a mosque or obtaining a Q'ran and reading it?

 

[Aviel]

Have you been to China yourself?

So, now you want to talk about the Christian Churches in China.

Like i told you.

Good work.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So, now you want to talk about the Christian Churches in China.

Like i told you.

Good work.

You jumped to the conclusion that my knowledge of the level of ignorance of the gospel in China was simply based on biased articles I had read. I corrected your error. If you would care to continue to explain to me your thoughts regarding individuals' eternal destiny who have never, nor even are able, to conceive of the gospel of Jesus Christ, then we can continue our dialogue.

 

[Grip Docility]

Reader,

When a person hears the "Gospel", as, "faith comes by hearing" ... then this faith is proof something happened in the heart of the Believer that God SEES... as "God sees the heart"
And what is that, that God sees that has happened inside you?

God sees your "repentance" ....that is of the kind that God accepts, and that is not repenting from sin....but its repenting from UNBELIEF.

See, God is not looking for people who are willing to "clean up"... as = ""Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"

See that Reader?

God is looking for FAITH IN CHRIST...and then God will clean you ............So, God is looking for FAITH.....as that proves you have repented from your UNBELIEF.... and God takes that FAITH, and accepts that one time FAITH = forever..... and then He does this...

A.) He takes ALL your sin, and puts it on Jesus,

"God hath made Jesus to be SIN for us".... = as if Jesus is YOU THE SINNER, and then Christ dies on the Cross, for ALL YOUR SIN..

and then,,.

God takes that Righteous LIFE that Jesus LIVED.. and God gives it to you... "imputs it".. ."charges it to you", as if you lived it all your life.

This is to become "a New Creation, In Christ".

See that?
That is : SALVATiON....

Its Jesus becoming our wrong and our sin, and us, = through God's Grace.... God gives us His own RIGHTEOUSNESS, as if we were always righteous, and will always be.. RIGHTEOUS. = to become BORN AGAIN.

This is the "imputed righteousness" that God gives you the INSTANT you trusted in Christ, and you remain "made righteous".. having become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".... = FOREVER.

Welcome to : Salvation

Its a "GIFT"..... an Eternal Gift.

Wow! Beautiful thread! Absolutely crucial to the Soldier in Jesus! This keeps that Salvational helmet on as securely as Christ intended. Thank you for this beautiful thread!

 

[Grip Docility]

What do you think about all those who do not choose simply because they don't have a clue as to the choice?

I see that God has a plan for them. I have a personal expression. There won't be a single atheist left on planet earth, beneath the soil, or above it... as the of Judgment is at hand.

 

[Aviel]

Wow! Beautiful thread! Absolutely crucial to the Soldier in Jesus! This keeps that Salvational helmet on as securely as Christ intended. Thank you for this beautiful thread!

Thank you for reading it.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank you for reading it.

Paul covers your backside! He literally had to enunciate that "Christ is no promoter of sin" to deal with the absolute liberty that Salvation grants. Even as you read through the 27 NT books, you can see the disciples struggling to create some protective boundary for the church... to prevent it from descending into chaos! They cite moderation of alcohol and abstaining from sexual impurity to prevent the obvious problems within a tight knit community that would arise if those matters weren't discussed.

Paul even later ousts a man for sleeping with his fathers wife.... um... nope... I do not want the details... then goes on to re-invite him back under forgiveness and suggests that he was testing the church to see if they would extend grace to the man.... while insinuating that to have ousted him parentally would have been the work of Satan!

 

[Aviel]

Paul even later ousts a man for sleeping with his fathers wife.... um... nope... I do not want the details... then goes on to re-invite him back under forgiveness and suggests that he was testing the church to see if they would extend grace to the man....

That's an interesting set of verses, as ..

1.) It shows that you can't lose your Salvation by willfully sinning, as im pretty certain that everytime the young man had sex with his Father's new bride, he understood it was wrong.
Also of note is not one word about the woman, = step-mom.
Perhaps she was not a CHRISTian.

2. ) Its shows something else, ... it shows that in all of this....Paul never once, even insinuates that this boy who is caught in fornication, is to confess the sin.

And why would He tell the boy to do this, when the Boy's sin is already on Christ...

And that is why Paul the Apostle never once in his 13 epistles confesses a sin.

"well Aviel, what about 1 John 1:9, as.... that is where most baby christians are stuck for life"?

Yeah, what about it.
Obviously that verse is not AIMED at a "made righteous" new Creation, and of course that Apostle has no sin.

See, if we have sin, then Jesus has not died for our sin yet.

This is why 1 John 3:9 is aimed at the Believer...

 

[bbbbbbb]

I see that God has a plan for them. I have a personal expression. There won't be a single atheist left on planet earth, beneath the soil, or above it... as the of Judgment is at hand.

Actually, the world is primarily composed of theistic folks. Atheism is a distinct minority. The problem, of course, is that only a minority of theists are Christians. If you believe that God intends to save all theists and, perhaps, atheists, as well, then you have gone down the path of unorthodoxy.

 

[Aviel]

You jumped to the conclusion that my knowledge of the level of ignorance of the gospel in China was simply based on biased articles I had read. I corrected your error.

= Israel is the only Jewish-majority country and the only explicitly Jewish state

 

[Grip Docility]

Actually, the world is primarily composed of theistic folks. Atheism is a distinct minority. The problem, of course, is that only a minority of theists are Christians. If you believe that God intends to save all theists and, perhaps, atheists, as well, then you have gone down the path of unorthodoxy.

I'm no universalist. If you were hoping for that, I'll be a great disappointment. However, I do believe scripture, and it has much hope for folks that died without ever hearing the gospel, or folks that rejected the gospel, because the representatives that they knew of it, misrepresented it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

= Israel is the only Jewish-majority country and the only explicitly Jewish state

????????? This post has nothing at all to do with my attempt to dialogue with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm no universalist. If you were hoping for that, I'll be a great disappointment. However, I do believe scripture, and it has much hope for folks that died without ever hearing the gospel, or folks that rejected the gospel, because the representatives that they knew of it, misrepresented it.

Please show me places in scripture that hold out hope for these folks. Thank you.

 

[Grip Docility]

Please show me places in scripture that hold out hope for these folks. Thank you.

Romans 11:25-32, 2 Peter 3:9, Joel 2:12-14 for starters... and I haven't even scratched the surface. You are very welcome, by friend in Jesus.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Romans 11:25-32, 2 Peter 3:9, Joel 2:12-14 for starters... and I haven't even scratched the surface. You are very welcome, by friend in Jesus.

Thank you. If you don't mind, I would like to discuss these passages individually.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

It is interesting (to me, at least) to compare this passage with Hebrews 6:4-8) where the writer refers to unbelieving Israel and states that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance with the bottom line being that like unfruitful ground that ends up being burned, so will they.

The question can be raised as to how these two disparate passages can be reconciled.

Both address the specific spiritual relationship between Israel and God, but with completely opposite results. Resolution can be found in the context and the people. In Hebrews the writer speaks concerning the nation of Israel as of his own day. In Romans Paul takes the prophetic view, such that (as many believe) all Israel will be saved at the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. Paul makes it quite clear that the Israelites of his day were enemies of God, having been cut off, so that Gentiles might be grafted in. That is, not all Gentiles, but believing Gentiles. Paul never asserts that salvation or justification is anything other than by God's grace through faith. The theme of Romans, as you know, is God's justification of His people through faith.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank you. If you don't mind, I would like to discuss these passages individually.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

It is interesting (to me, at least) to compare this passage with Hebrews 6:4-8) where the writer refers to unbelieving Israel and states that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance with the bottom line being that like unfruitful ground that ends up being burned, so will they.

The question can be raised as to how these two disparate passages can be reconciled.

Both address the specific spiritual relationship between Israel and God, but with completely opposite results. Resolution can be found in the context and the people. In Hebrews the writer speaks concerning the nation of Israel as of his own day. In Romans Paul takes the prophetic view, such that (as many believe) all Israel will be saved at the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. Paul makes it quite clear that the Israelites of his day were enemies of God, having been cut off, so that Gentiles might be grafted in. That is, not all Gentiles, but believing Gentiles. Paul never asserts that salvation or justification is anything other than by God's grace through faith. The theme of Romans, as you know, is God's justification of His people through faith.

How can I debate this masterful response! I LOVE IT! Well observed! Indeed How can we reconcile this (Do not speak of it; Musterion)? Perhaps you have answered "RECONCILIAITON/GRAFTING" in your last paragraph. Perhaps Faith, Hope and Love are dead towards the very Brethren that Paul's very heart is rended for at the beginning of Romans 9, all the way through to Romans 11. Perhaps there's a Mystery here?

 

[Aviel]

1.) You have to become as RIGHTEOUS as God, before HOLY RIGHTEOUS God, can join Himself to you, so that you become BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY.

2.) Your SIN is blocking God from having you rejoined to Him in "Spiritual Union".

So, GOD had to solve = these 2 issues for you, as you can't deal with your own sin, and you can't become righteous.


A.) God became a man to die for all your sin, so that He can then give you HIS Righteousness.

And that is what happens when you go to God with Faith in Christ.

God takes the Blood and Death of Jesus and makes you sinless, as "Jesus is the ONE TIME... Eternal SACRIFICE for SIN"

AND then, once your SIN is dealt with by the BLOOD and DEATH of Jesus........as He has now died for them all..... God then gives you "the Gift of Righteousness" that is "The Gift of Salvation".

See that?

That is to become BORN AGAIN... as a "new Creation".. "in Christ". AS = "ONE with GOD".

Now, how does the Devil present "Salvation"?

"Works + Water".

See that?

So, if you can SEE that God's Salvation, is not what You do or can do, but its What JESUS has finished for you, on The Cross.... as "the GIFT of Salvation"......then once you SEE THIS and it becomes your REAL FAITH, then this provides you with the LENS to view and discern all that pretends to be Salvation, and isn't.

 

[Grip Docility]

1.) You have to become as RIGHTEOUS as God, before HOLY RIGHTEOUS God, can join Himself to you, so that you become BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY.

2.) Your SIN is blocking God from having you rejoined to Him in "Spiritual Union".

So, GOD had to solve = these 2 issues for you, as you can't deal with your own sin, and you can't become righteous.


A.) God became a man to die for all your sin, so that He can then give you HIS Righteousness.

And that is what happens when you go to God with Faith in Christ.

God takes the Blood and Death of Jesus and makes you sinless, as "Jesus is the ONE TIME... Eternal SACRIFICE for SIN"

AND then, once your SIN is dealt with by the BLOOD and DEATH of Jesus........as He has now died for them all..... God then gives you "the Gift of Righteousness" that is "The Gift of Salvation".

See that?

That is to become BORN AGAIN... as a "new Creation".. "in Christ". AS = "ONE with GOD".

Now, how does the Devil present "Salvation"?

"Works + Water".

See that?

So, if you can SEE that God's Salvation, is not what You do or can do, but its What JESUS has finished for you, on The Cross.... as "the GIFT of Salvation"......then once you SEE THIS and it becomes your REAL FAITH, then this provides you with the LENS to view and discern all that pretends to be Salvation, and isn't.

The chair analogy is alive and well.... It's one thing to see "the chair". It's an entirely different matter to have faith that the chair is sufficient to hold ones weight! The chair holds us up, only if we have the Faith to sit in it.