Unravelling the Law and Justification

[RandyPNW]

Genuine question... Why did the Blood of Bulls and Goats never accomplish the purpose?

What purpose? I said this:
The following statement implies that the Law was temporary. That it was a system of redemption/justification goes without saying.

Heb 8.3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer... 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

The book of Hebrews argues that 1) the priesthood was imperfect, and so could not bring Man past the curse upon human sin. And that 2) animals could not do anything more than represent flawed human repentance, since those who repent are still sinful and will repeat their sins, if only in lesser ways. The smallest sin keeps one from the Tree of Life.

So the Law, with its animal sacrifices, were never meant to provide liberty from the curse of death. Rather, it was a temporary means of keeping Israel in covenant relationship with God until Christ could come and accomplish the work of Final Redemption. He was flawless, and Divine, as well. And so, he could accomplish what flawed animal sacrifices could not provide, God's means of Final Forgiveness.

Why is the Stone Law actually associated with bad things in Hebrews 2:14?

What does Heb 2.14 have to do with the "Stone Law?"

Heb 2.14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Why does Paul say this, here; 2 Corinthians 3:7

2 Cor 3.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Paul is saying this for precisely the reason I've just been saying, that the Law was a transitory redemption, a temporary justification, and national salvation that would not hold forever. It was still sanctioned by God to accomplish a good purpose, one which Israel was able to accomplish, which was to prepare for the coming of Christ and for people to walk in union with God, if Eternal Life had yet to be realized.

And so, the Law had a glorious appearance. But it was nothing compared to the glory that does not fade with the redemption of Christ, a work that lasts with us.

I genuinely ask you, if we follow 1 Corinthians 15:56 and Hebrews 2:14 through... all the way to; Galatians 3:19 ... What is the insinuation?

Heb 2.14 does not have to do with the "Stone Law," but it does speak of the superior work of Christ which lasts, providing us with Eternal Life. It does with finality something that the Law only prepared for, but could never accomplish.

1 Cor 15.56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Gal 3.19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

As I said, the Law operated through faith to a good end. But it could never overcome the curse of death. Only the work of Christ could accomplish that, and it is our faith in him that obtains for us Eternal Life.

 

[RandyPNW]

Are you aware that Paul refers to another "Law"... completely different than the 613 Mitzvah and even goes so far to say that he is no longer under the 613?

I'm not sure what "Law" you're talking about? Am I to guess what you're making reference to? I know the Bible quite well.

 

[Grip Docility]

I'm not sure what "Law" you're talking about? Am I to guess what you're making reference to? I know the Bible quite well.

1 Corinthians 9:21-23

 

[Studyman]

Keeping the Law was not "Legalism." Legalism is trying to obtain, by means of the Law, something that requires more than what the Law alone can give.

It is true that obedience to God is not "Legalism". And it's great that you point this out.

But it's important to understand that we are influenced by deception from this world and its religions. It surrounds us to the point where we need the Armor of God to protect us from the influence. This is a hard truth for men to believe, but it is an undeniable truth.

For instance, you and I were brought up being taught by various religious sects and businesses, all who come in Christ's Name, slightly different versions of the doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to earn God's Favor or earn Salvation by obeying God's Laws. Which this world's religions have defined as Legalism, as the term itself or the definition thereof, doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.

I would advocate that a man consider "EVERY" Word Jesus spoke defining or describing the Pharisees in any translation of the Bible available to them. If a man does this, he will find that the problem with the Pharisees was not that they obeyed God for the wrong reason, which is the implication of the word "Legalism", but that they rejected, transgressed, and DID NOT KEEP God's Laws. They rejected them, at least this is the Truth according to the Jesus of the Bible.

And the very few verses these religions use to promote their religious philosophy of "Legalism" are separated from the Words of the Christ Himself and taken out of context, in my view, and I would point out the reasons for this understanding for your review.

For instance, Paul speaks of men claiming a righteousness "which was by the Law", or Justification "by works of the Law". If a person reads Isaiah 1, it speaks to the exact same thing.

The disobedient Jews had rejected God's Laws and created their own, they rejected God's Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths and persecuted those who would yield themselves to God.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Clearly this is a disobedient people. Not a people who are obeying God for the wrong reason or trying to earn God's Favor by obeying His Laws.

And yet Every Sabbath they come to the temple, and they bring the blood of an innocent being, "According to the Law" to Justify them of their willful sins.

Is. 1: 11 To what purpose is the multitude of "your sacrifices unto me"? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

These are the people Jesus and Paul was contending with.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

These are the Pharisees who were promoting justification "by works of the Law". These men were promoting righteousness "by the Law".

It would be the same today if a man "Professed to know God" and the Son of God that HE sent, but rejected God's commandments, rejected God's Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths and scoffed at HIS Ways, but then every week approach unto God with the Blood of an Innocent Being, according to the Law of God, to justify them of their willful disobedience.

Paul points out in Romans 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This is evident in the Scriptures regarding God's definition of men of Faith from Abel to Malichi. (See Heb. 11)

But a man cannot reject God's Ways, Laws and Commandments, and then expect that the "Works of the Law" concerning atonement/forgiveness/justification will make him righteous again. for "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight".

As it is written. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".

With these undeniable Biblical Truths in our hearts, we can begin to unravel the Law and Justification.

Great topic Randy, and very important to understand.

 

[Grip Docility]

It is true that obedience to God is not "Legalism". And it's great that you point this out.

But it's important to understand that we are influenced by deception from this world and its religions. It surrounds us to the point where we need the Armor of God to protect us from the influence. This is a hard truth for men to believe, but it is an undeniable truth.

For instance, you and I were brought up being taught by various religious sects and businesses, all who come in Christ's Name, slightly different versions of the doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to earn God's Favor or earn Salvation by obeying God's Laws. Which this world's religions have defined as Legalism, as the term itself or the definition thereof, doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.

I would advocate that a man consider "EVERY" Word Jesus spoke defining or describing the Pharisees in any translation of the Bible available to them. If a man does this, he will find that the problem with the Pharisees was not that they obeyed God for the wrong reason, which is the implication of the word "Legalism", but that they rejected, transgressed, and DID NOT KEEP God's Laws. They rejected them, at least this is the Truth according to the Jesus of the Bible.

And the very few verses these religions use to promote their religious philosophy of "Legalism" are separated from the Words of the Christ Himself and taken out of context, in my view, and I would point out the reasons for this understanding for your review.

For instance, Paul speaks of men claiming a righteousness "which was by the Law", or Justification "by works of the Law". If a person reads Isaiah 1, it speaks to the exact same thing.

The disobedient Jews had rejected God's Laws and created their own, they rejected God's Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths and persecuted those who would yield themselves to God.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Clearly this is a disobedient people. Not a people who are obeying God for the wrong reason or trying to earn God's Favor by obeying His Laws.

And yet Every Sabbath they come to the temple, and they bring the blood of an innocent being, "According to the Law" to Justify them of their willful sins.

Is. 1: 11 To what purpose is the multitude of "your sacrifices unto me"? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

These are the people Jesus and Paul was contending with.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

These are the Pharisees who were promoting justification "by works of the Law". These men were promoting righteousness "by the Law".

It would be the same today if a man "Professed to know God" and the Son of God that HE sent, but rejected God's commandments, rejected God's Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths and scoffed at HIS Ways, but then every week approach unto God with the Blood of an Innocent Being, according to the Law of God, to justify them of their willful disobedience.

Paul points out in Romans 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This is evident in the Scriptures regarding God's definition of men of Faith from Abel to Malichi. (See Heb. 11)

But a man cannot reject God's Ways, Laws and Commandments, and then expect that the "Works of the Law" concerning atonement/forgiveness/justification will make him righteous again. for "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight".

As it is written. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".

With these undeniable Biblical Truths in our hearts, we can begin to unravel the Law and Justification.

Great topic Randy, and very important to understand.

Don't get me wrong, I get this discussion... but have you met any Christians that "according to the law".... Sin accidently, only?

I'll make this easy; 1) Jesus died so that we can sin 2) Jesus died so that we could then become sinless in our physical flesh, here and now, with the help of the indwelling Spirit 3) Jesus died because we are sinners, according to the Law, and incapable of keeping the law or being "good" at any given day 4) other; please explain

 

[Studyman]

We disagree. There was never any system of *final* Justification under the Law. The Law was not "of faith," meaning that it did not offer a means of escape from the condemnation of sin. It gave a *temporary reprieve* from the condemnation of sin.

This is close to my understanding as well. Except "What Law" is not of Faith? Consider the Greatest Commandment, "Thou shall Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart". How is this Law "not of Faith". How can I Love God, unless I believe in God, even though I cannot see Him?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Wouldn't this Law be "of faith"? How can it not?

But the LAW concerning sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin, truly is not of faith. A man sins, he takes a goat to the Levite Priest, he kills the goat and the priest sprinkles its blood on the alter, and his sins are forgiven. I love how you say "It gave a *temporary reprieve* from the condemnation of sin", because truly the Law concerning sacrifices and burnt offerings for Sin, that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham, was truly temporary, as Paul said, "ADDED Till the Seed should come". But the 2 Greatest Commandments, are not temporary, are they? I mean, do we Love God and our neighbors, and all that define these, until the true Lamb of God comes, and then these Laws become old and vanish away?

But surely the Law concerning animal sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin was only Temporary. I think Paul speaks to this in Romans 3. "Law of Faith" VS. "Law of Works". Surely the 2 Greatest commandments are just as essential for Salvation in our time, as they were in Abraham or Caleb's time.

Great discussion, great topic.

 

[Grip Docility]

This is close to my understanding as well. Except "What Law" is not of Faith? Consider the Greatest Commandment, "Thou shall Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart". How is this Law "not of Faith". How can I Love God, unless I believe in God, even though I cannot see Him?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Wouldn't this Law be "of faith"? How can it not?

But the LAW concerning sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin, truly is not of faith. A man sins, he takes a goat to the Levite Priest, he kills the goat and the priest sprinkles its blood on the alter, and his sins are forgiven. I love how you say "It gave a *temporary reprieve* from the condemnation of sin", because truly the Law concerning sacrifices and burnt offerings for Sin, that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham, was truly temporary, as Paul said, "ADDED Till the Seed should come". But the 2 Greatest Commandments, are not temporary, are they? I mean, do we Love God and our neighbors, and all that define these, until the true Lamb of God comes, and then these Laws become old and vanish away?

But surely the Law concerning animal sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin was only Temporary. I think Paul speaks to this in Romans 3. "Law of Faith" VS. "Law of Works". Surely the 2 Greatest commandments are just as essential for Salvation in our time, as they were in Abraham or Caleb's time.

Great discussion, great topic.

Aha... the distinction of "The Royal Law"... which Paul and James agree on. James chapter 2 and again 1 Corinthians 13 ... okay... I understand your theological flow. Well spoken!

 

[Studyman]

Don't get me wrong, I get this discussion... but have you met any Christians that "according to the law".... Sin accidently, only?

For the purpose of clarity, and to share my understanding. "willful sin", in the context it is used in the Bible, is a rejection of God's Judgment, Commandment or statute. The mainstream preachers of Jesus time were "Partial" in the Law. They kept and promoted some of the Commandments but omitted or rejected other important matters of God's Law, choosing instead to promote their own religious traditions and commandments of men. This isn't, as you put it, "accidental sin" but willful sin.

As for the term "Christian" as it is defined today, Jesus and Paul both warned not to be deceived by them. Jesus even shared a glimpse into the Final judgment for "many" "Christians" who claimed to know HIM, but sinned willfully, or as Jesus said "Worked Iniquity". Obviously God isn't going to reject someone for doing thing he didn't know was against His Laws, But as Hebrews says, if a man knows but lives in them anyway, it's a different story.

I am blessed to know several believers who I have never actually seen "Sin", as defined by God, since I have known them. But if you ask them, they would confess to Sin with their faces to the ground.

However, I have seen entire religious businesses and sects who "Profess to know God", but by their works, reject His Judgments, Statutes and Laws.

Does it matter? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it is the truth, nonetheless.

I'll make this easy; 1) Jesus died so that we can sin 2) Jesus died so that we could then become sinless in our physical flesh, here and now, with the help of the indwelling Spirit 3) Jesus died because we are sinners, according to the Law, and incapable of keeping the law or being "good" at any given day 4) other; please explain

The Passover Lamb, according to the examples God had written specifically for my admonition, was to be killed, and then the Blood painted on the 2 door posts and lintel. In my understanding, this represented the "Life" of Christ placed in our mind, and our works. This is done while Israel was still in Egypt which I believe represents SIN. As it is written "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,(In Egypt)" Christ (Lamb of God) died for us.

So the Blood of the Lamb, (Life of Christ) in our minds and deeds, the death angel pass over them, as it is written "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved "from wrath" through him.

Now that we are reconciled to God through Passover, which is the acknowledgment of man's belief, both in God, and His Son God sent, we begin our journey of a life unleavened, AKA "sin free". This is represented by Feast of Unleavened bread which mirrors the Life of Christ that is in our mind and works. As it is written; For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the "death" of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by "his life".

As it is written in another place. 1 John 2: He that saith he abideth in him (Call Jesus Lord, Lord) ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked. (They used to call this, "being a Christian", now they call it being a Legalist)

Therefore, not according to this world's religious businesses or sects, or my beliefs, but according to what is actually written, our duty is simple.

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So according to these and many more Inspired Words of God, The Lamb of God died, so that I can be renewed in the Spirit of my mind, so I can "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Nothing else matters according to Paul.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Therefore, as Paul teaches, Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So then, according to these Inspired Scriptures and many more, Jesus died so I can become a servant of "God's" Righteousness in this Life, as I journey to the next.

 

[RandyPNW]

1 Corinthians 9:21-23

Yes, I've long made the argument that Divine Law does not restrict itself to the Law of Moses. It has existed as long as God has existed, ie forever.

The Law of Christ is the same. We live by the Divine Law that is apparent in Christ, whether it was during his earthly ministry, in the time of the Law, or in the present Christian era when there is no Mosaic Law.

Christ has never been under the Law of Moses. He submitted to living by it only as an example to Israel, who had been placed under that covenant. Today, Christ exemplifies the Divine Law apart from the Law of Moses. Yes, this is "another Law" in a sense, but is consistent with how God has always been.

God doesn't change. Christ doesn't change.

 

[Grip Docility]

For the purpose of clarity, and to share my understanding. "willful sin", in the context it is used in the Bible, is a rejection of God's Judgment, Commandment or statute. The mainstream preachers of Jesus time were "Partial" in the Law. They kept and promoted some of the Commandments but omitted or rejected other important matters of God's Law, choosing instead to promote their own religious traditions and commandments of men. This isn't, as you put it, "accidental sin" but willful sin.

As for the term "Christian" as it is defined today, Jesus and Paul both warned not to be deceived by them. Jesus even shared a glimpse into the Final judgment for "many" "Christians" who claimed to know HIM, but sinned willfully, or as Jesus said "Worked Iniquity". Obviously God isn't going to reject someone for doing thing he didn't know was against His Laws, But as Hebrews says, if a man knows but lives in them anyway, it's a different story.

I am blessed to know several believers who I have never actually seen "Sin", as defined by God, since I have known them. But if you ask them, they would confess to Sin with their faces to the ground.

However, I have seen entire religious businesses and sects who "Profess to know God", but by their works, reject His Judgments, Statutes and Laws.

Does it matter? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it is the truth, nonetheless.




The Passover Lamb, according to the examples God had written specifically for my admonition, was to be killed, and then the Blood painted on the 2 door posts and lintel. In my understanding, this represented the "Life" of Christ placed in our mind, and our works. This is done while Israel was still in Egypt which I believe represents SIN. As it is written "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,(In Egypt)" Christ (Lamb of God) died for us.

So the Blood of the Lamb, (Life of Christ) in our minds and deeds, the death angel pass over them, as it is written "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved "from wrath" through him.

Now that we are reconciled to God through Passover, which is the acknowledgment of man's belief, both in God, and His Son God sent, we begin our journey of a life unleavened, AKA "sin free". This is represented by Feast of Unleavened bread which mirrors the Life of Christ that is in our mind and works. As it is written; For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the "death" of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by "his life".

As it is written in another place. 1 John 2: He that saith he abideth in him (Call Jesus Lord, Lord) ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked. (They used to call this, "being a Christian", now they call it being a Legalist)

Therefore, not according to this world's religious businesses or sects, or my beliefs, but according to what is actually written, our duty is simple.

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So according to these and many more Inspired Words of God, The Lamb of God died, so that I can be renewed in the Spirit of my mind, so I can "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Nothing else matters according to Paul.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Therefore, as Paul teaches, Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So then, according to these Inspired Scriptures and many more, Jesus died so I can become a servant of "God's" Righteousness in this Life, as I journey to the next.

You have cited condemnation scripture. If I ask you logical questions about those passages, with very simple verbiage, would you be willing to follow biblical logic, down that path?

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, I've long made the argument that Divine Law does not restrict itself to the Law of Moses. It has existed as long as God has existed, ie forever.

The Law of Christ is the same. We live by the Divine Law that is apparent in Christ, whether it was during his earthly ministry, in the time of the Law, or in the present Christian era when there is no Mosaic Law.

Christ has never been under the Law of Moses. He submitted to living by it only as an example to Israel, who had been placed under that covenant. Today, Christ exemplifies the Divine Law apart from the Law of Moses. Yes, this is "another Law" in a sense, but is consistent with how God has always been.

God doesn't change. Christ doesn't change.

Hmmmm.... So, would you say, Judge not lest ye be judged (by the Book of the Law) and Love your neighbor as yourself.... are sufficient?

 

[RandyPNW]

It is true that obedience to God is not "Legalism". And it's great that you point this out.

But it's important to understand that we are influenced by deception from this world and its religions. It surrounds us to the point where we need the Armor of God to protect us from the influence. This is a hard truth for men to believe, but it is an undeniable truth.

Yes, imagine how much work God put into giving an alligator a tough hide! That is how we came into the world, as seemingly helpless as a sheep, and yet with the capacity to put God's word into effect in our lives, harnessing the most potent force in the universe. We are not helpless, but we do need to be on guard and to make use of protections God makes available to us.

For instance, you and I were brought up being taught by various religious sects and businesses, all who come in Christ's Name, slightly different versions of the doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to earn God's Favor or earn Salvation by obeying God's Laws. Which this world's religions have defined as Legalism, as the term itself or the definition thereof, doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.

I would advocate that a man consider "EVERY" Word Jesus spoke defining or describing the Pharisees in any translation of the Bible available to them. If a man does this, he will find that the problem with the Pharisees was not that they obeyed God for the wrong reason, which is the implication of the word "Legalism", but that they rejected, transgressed, and DID NOT KEEP God's Laws. They rejected them, at least this is the Truth according to the Jesus of the Bible.

For me "legalism" refers to one who makes use of religious laws to cover his inward sins. It is an ostentatious display of religious zeal without actually doing what the religion really requires. It is an external religious display, cleaning the outside of the cup, but filling the cup with poison. Appearances alone, for example.

The Law was actually designed to be kept in the most noble fashion. Acts of sacrifice were designed to be put in use by people of faith who knew it was a means of applying for God's mercy when they were undeserving and incapable of self-atonement.

We may characterize the "Pharisees" as people without spirit, who follow laws without following God. But I'm sure there was a time when religious leaders followed the Law and actually did what the Pharisees ultimately came to teach without doing!

And the very few verses these religions use to promote their religious philosophy of "Legalism" are separated from the Words of the Christ Himself and taken out of context, in my view, and I would point out the reasons for this understanding for your review.

For instance, Paul speaks of men claiming a righteousness "which was by the Law", or Justification "by works of the Law". If a person reads Isaiah 1, it speaks to the exact same thing.

The disobedient Jews had rejected God's Laws and created their own, they rejected God's Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths and persecuted those who would yield themselves to God.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Clearly this is a disobedient people. Not a people who are obeying God for the wrong reason or trying to earn God's Favor by obeying His Laws.

And yet Every Sabbath they come to the temple, and they bring the blood of an innocent being, "According to the Law" to Justify them of their willful sins.

Is. 1: 11 To what purpose is the multitude of "your sacrifices unto me"? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

These are the people Jesus and Paul was contending with.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

These are the Pharisees who were promoting justification "by works of the Law". These men were promoting righteousness "by the Law".

It would be the same today if a man "Professed to know God" and the Son of God that HE sent, but rejected God's commandments, rejected God's Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths and scoffed at HIS Ways, but then every week approach unto God with the Blood of an Innocent Being, according to the Law of God, to justify them of their willful disobedience.

I don't know how "today" we can "pollute God's Sabbaths?" But yes, there are still many commandments that come with following Christ and Divine holiness. We can't very well say we're a Christian and then disobey God's commandment to love one another! We agree on that.

Self-Justification takes place in many forms. It is no surprise when a Christian confronts an unbeliever, who then goes on in great detail to explain how much "good" they do in their lives.

Apart from Christ's atonement all our "goodness" lacks what is needed for Eternal Life, namely an atonement that results in an eternal partnership with Christ. Half-baked "goodness" falls far short of what Christ represents in all of his righteousness!

We require a permanent bond with Christ! And that comes only through the atonement of Christ.

Paul points out in Romans 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Amen. This is one of the most neglected verses in the NT Scriptures. In fact, to some degree we *all* neglect it! I mean this in the NT sense, and not in the Law of Moses sense.

This is evident in the Scriptures regarding God's definition of men of Faith from Abel to Malichi. (See Heb. 11)

But a man cannot reject God's Ways, Laws and Commandments, and then expect that the "Works of the Law" concerning atonement/forgiveness/justification will make him righteous again. for "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight".

As it is written. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".

With these undeniable Biblical Truths in our hearts, we can begin to unravel the Law and Justification.

Great topic Randy, and very important to understand.

Yes, thanks for your contribution to some very important elements in our Christian walk.

 

[Grip Docility]

For the purpose of clarity, and to share my understanding. "willful sin", in the context it is used in the Bible, is a rejection of God's Judgment, Commandment or statute. The mainstream preachers of Jesus time were "Partial" in the Law. They kept and promoted some of the Commandments but omitted or rejected other important matters of God's Law, choosing instead to promote their own religious traditions and commandments of men. This isn't, as you put it, "accidental sin" but willful sin.

Okay, do you think the 613 Mitzvah, contained between Deuteronomy 10 - Deuteronomy 31:26 are requirements for salvation at any point before death?

As for the term "Christian" as it is defined today, Jesus and Paul both warned not to be deceived by them. Jesus even shared a glimpse into the Final judgment for "many" "Christians" who claimed to know HIM, but sinned willfully, or as Jesus said "Worked Iniquity". Obviously God isn't going to reject someone for doing thing he didn't know was against His Laws, But as Hebrews says, if a man knows but lives in them anyway, it's a different story.

Note that the very people He rejects come to him with a list of their accomplishments?

I am blessed to know several believers who I have never actually seen "Sin", as defined by God, since I have known them. But if you ask them, they would confess to Sin with their faces to the ground.

They confess their sin, because they sin. We are commanded to admit that we sin. John is adamant about this! It doesn't mean that we "Should" sin... but instead that we "DO" sin. Jesus didn't die "So that we can sin", but He died "Because we are damned, sinful, heathen skallywags".

However, I have seen entire religious businesses and sects who "Profess to know God", but by their works, reject His Judgments, Statutes and Laws.

To be clear... what Laws are you referring to? Are the 613 Mitzvah included or excluded? I will go through your posted scriptures, next, line by line and try to understand your perspective.

 

[Studyman]

Okay, do you think the 613 Mitzvah, contained between Deuteronomy 10 - Deuteronomy 31:26 are requirements for salvation at any point before death?

This doctrine is a myth, a deception. There is not ONE person, ever in the History of the Holy scriptures, that God placed 613 Laws on their necks. Not ONE person. You cannot find even ONE example of God placing 613 Laws on anyone. This doctrine is a deception, created by evil men to belittle and discredit God. You go back through the Law and Prophets my friend, and you show me even "ONE" person, that God placed 613 Laws on, and I will apologize and recant on this very forum.

But if you can't find even ONE Example, then you should ask yourself, "why am I promoting falsehoods about God, what spirit would influence me to do such a thing?

Note that the very people He rejects come to him with a list of their accomplishments?

My friend, I would ask that you read what is written.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,

What "DAY" will men speak to the Christ face to face? Is this not at the Judgment seat of Christ that we will all appear before? Imagine we were members of a religion who called Jesus Lord, Lord, but rejected God's Commandments by our own religious traditions. Yet, our preachers told us the whole time we were "Saved", as it is written, "and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

We die, and in the process of time, we are resurrected to stand before the Judgment seat of Christ as we all will appear. And we see the Lake of Fire, and the judgment that awaits us. What would men say? "Hey Jesus, don't you know who we are? " have we not prophesied in thy name?" and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Where is the chance to repent? Where is the forgiveness? In this prophesy, it is too late for these self-proclaimed "Christians". Isn't this a warning from the Lord's Christ to us, to not just be "Hearers" of His instruction, but Doers?

They confess their sin, because they sin. We are commanded to admit that we sin. John is adamant about this! It doesn't mean that we "Should" sin... but instead that we "DO" sin. Jesus didn't die "So that we can sin", but He died "Because we are damned, sinful, heathen skallywags".

I know this is a popular religious doctrine in the world we were placed by God in. But if one reads what is actually written;

Eph. 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Skallywags, Yes?)

if this is who they "Were", what are they now?

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth (From here on out) walk not as other Gentiles walk, ((Skallywags, Yes?) in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated "from the life of God" through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. (Skallywags, Yes?)

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, (Skallywags) which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that "ye put on" the new man, which "after God" is created in righteousness and true holiness. No longer a Scallywag.

To be clear... what Laws are you referring to? Are the 613 Mitzvah included or excluded?

Again my friend, God never placed 613 Laws on the neck of even ONE MAN, ever. You can't exclude something that doesn't exist.

I will go through your posted scriptures, next, line by line and try to understand your perspective.

That's truly a great thing. And isn't a forum such as this a place where men share their understanding, exposing both truth, and also deceptions for the edification of us all?

I look forward to it.

 

[Grip Docility]

This doctrine is a myth, a deception. There is not ONE person, ever in the History of the Holy scriptures, that God placed 613 Laws on their necks. Not ONE person. You cannot find even ONE example of God placing 613 Laws on anyone. This doctrine is a deception, created by evil men to belittle and discredit God. You go back through the Law and Prophets my friend, and you show me even "ONE" person, that God placed 613 Laws on, and I will apologize and recant on this very forum.

But if you can't find even ONE Example, then you should ask yourself, "why am I promoting falsehoods about God, what spirit would influence me to do such a thing?



My friend, I would ask that you read what is written.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,

What "DAY" will men speak to the Christ face to face? Is this not at the Judgment seat of Christ that we will all appear before? Imagine we were members of a religion who called Jesus Lord, Lord, but rejected God's Commandments by our own religious traditions. Yet, our preachers told us the whole time we were "Saved", as it is written, "and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

We die, and in the process of time, we are resurrected to stand before the Judgment seat of Christ as we all will appear. And we see the Lake of Fire, and the judgment that awaits us. What would men say? "Hey Jesus, don't you know who we are? " have we not prophesied in thy name?" and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Where is the chance to repent? Where is the forgiveness? In this prophesy, it is too late for these self-proclaimed "Christians". Isn't this a warning from the Lord's Christ to us, to not just be "Hearers" of His instruction, but Doers?




I know this is a popular religious doctrine in the world we were placed by God in. But if one reads what is actually written;

Eph. 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Skallywags, Yes?)

if this is who they "Were", what are they now?

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth (From here on out) walk not as other Gentiles walk, ((Skallywags, Yes?) in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated "from the life of God" through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. (Skallywags, Yes?)

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, (Skallywags) which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that "ye put on" the new man, which "after God" is created in righteousness and true holiness. No longer a Scallywag.




Again my friend, God never placed 613 Laws on the neck of even ONE MAN, ever. You can't exclude something that doesn't exist.


That's truly a great thing. And isn't a forum such as this a place where men share their understanding, exposing both truth, and also deceptions for the edification of us all?

I look forward to it.

I have to have some context... Are you aware that "The Law" spans from Deuteronomy 10 - Deuteronomy 31:26 and in that way is unbreakably considered the Book of the Law?

 

[Studyman]

Yes, imagine how much work God put into giving an alligator a tough hide! That is how we came into the world, as seemingly helpless as a sheep, and yet with the capacity to put God's word into effect in our lives, harnessing the most potent force in the universe. We are not helpless, but we do need to be on guard and to make use of protections God makes available to us.

Yes, the Sword of the Lord, the Word of God, and the Breastplate of Righteousness. With God's Way, we can endure. With man's way, not so much.

For me "legalism" refers to one who makes use of religious laws to cover his inward sins. It is an ostentatious display of religious zeal without actually doing what the religion really requires. It is an external religious display, cleaning the outside of the cup, but filling the cup with poison. Appearances alone, for example.

I agree. I think Jesus hit on this in Matthew 6. If God can hear our prayers in a closet with the door closed, and tells men not to let the left hand see the Alms of the right hand, then who are men trying to impress with manmade shrines of worship, and bells ringing, and TV broadcasts and praying on the street corners? Certainly, God doesn't need Hollywood to call men to Him, nor does HE dwell in manmade temples made of wood and stone. So who really, are this world's religions trying to be seen by?

He tells HIS people not to be like unto them. I agree, "Appearance Alone" is a work practiced by the religions of this world.

The Law was actually designed to be kept in the most noble fashion. Acts of sacrifice were designed to be put in use by people of faith who knew it was a means of applying for God's mercy when they were undeserving and incapable of self-atonement.

We may characterize the "Pharisees" as people without spirit, who follow laws without following God. But I'm sure there was a time when religious leaders followed the Law and actually did what the Pharisees ultimately came to teach without doing!

I don't know how "today" we can "pollute God's Sabbaths?" But yes, there are still many commandments that come with following Christ and Divine holiness. We can't very well say we're a Christian and then disobey God's commandment to love one another! We agree on that.

Yes, but it seems prudent point out, that without Love, Respect, Belief in the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, our human fleshy Love for others mean little, in my understanding. My problem in the beginning, more than now, is that I didn't know "HOW" to Love and Honor God, nor did I understand HOW to Love others with a Spiritual Love, and not a fleshy carnal Love. This is where God's instruction in Righteousness is so beneficial to men. He shows me who HE is so I can know Him, as Jesus instructed. What HIS Definition of Holy is. What HIS definition of Clean is, what Days HE Esteems above other days. In this way I can submit to His Righteousness, and not be like the Pharisees who went about establishing their own righteousness. Jesus was the perfect example of God's Laws in the Inner man. But without Belief in God, submitting to Him is not possible, in my view.

Self-Justification takes place in many forms. It is no surprise when a Christian confronts an unbeliever, who then goes on in great detail to explain how much "good" they do in their lives.

Apart from Christ's atonement all our "goodness" lacks what is needed for Eternal Life, namely an atonement that results in an eternal partnership with Christ. Half-baked "goodness" falls far short of what Christ represents in all of his righteousness!

I would only say that we are to be reconciled to God, our partnership, in my understanding is to be with God. He gives us to His Son for cleansing, as His Son is the High Priest of God. But Jesus Himself said, "no man can come to me, unless my Father Draw Him. "Everyone who hears the Father, and is Learned of Him, comes to the Christ". I think Passover is a perfect example of this reconciliation. Partaking of the Passover acknowledges a man's belief in God, and in God's Son, the Passover Lamb of God, who HE sent to redeem us.

I still get goosebumps reading Abraham's Words which shows me that He also understood as I do.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

We require a permanent bond with Christ! And that comes only through the atonement of Christ.

Amen. This is one of the most neglected verses in the NT Scriptures. In fact, to some degree we *all* neglect it! I mean this in the NT sense, and not in the Law of Moses sense.

Yes, thanks for your contribution to some very important elements in our Christian walk.

Great and important topic

Thank you as well.

 

[Studyman]

I have to have some context... Are you aware that "The Law" spans from Deuteronomy 10 - Deuteronomy 31:26 and in that way is unbreakably considered the Book of the Law?

It's a deceptive philosophy. Not that you use it that way, but it was designed to paint God as this unjust God who placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of Abraham's Children that were impossible to keep. This insidious falsehood prevails in almost every religious philosophy of this world's religions and businesses.

But the Truth of God, the undeniable Truth of the Scriptures, is that God NEVER, not ONE TIME, ever placed 613 LAWS on the Neck of even ONE PERSON. The entire philosophy is deceptive. Let me give you One example of the deception. There is a Law of God;

Lev. 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

So OK, it's not good to look on the nakedness of relatives. this is 1 Law. God goes on to define the word "kin".

"7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

This goes on to verse 18. All defining 1 Law. But the deceivers count the verse above into 2 laws, and through verse 18 into 20 something laws.

So in their deceptive list, they turn one Law, into over 20.

It's the same as having a Speed limit of 55. One Law. But then to continue, "Thou shall not drive 60", "Thou shall not drive 65", "Thou shall not drive 70", "Thou shall not drive 75." And then count this as 5 Laws.

They do this several times in order to inflate the number so high, for the desired effect, and your post perfectly represents the agenda of the deception, and that is to promote or imply that God placed a Yoke of Bondage, 613 Laws on the necks of men, and Jesus had to come save us from God's Laws.

There are instructions for Levite Priests, that do not apply to me. For women, that do not apply to me. Lepers, that do not apply to me. But to promote God's Laws as a Yoke of Bondage, so they can justify lawlessness of their religions, they create the illusion that if I obey ONE Law, I am obligated to obey 613 Laws.

That is not what Paul was teaching.

 

[Grip Docility]

It's a deceptive philosophy. Not that you use it that way, but it was designed to paint God as this unjust God who placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of Abraham's Children that were impossible to keep. This insidious falsehood prevails in almost every religious philosophy of this world's religions and businesses.

But the Truth of God, the undeniable Truth of the Scriptures, is that God NEVER, not ONE TIME, ever placed 613 LAWS on the Neck of even ONE PERSON. The entire philosophy is deceptive. Let me give you One example of the deception. There is a Law of God;

Lev. 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

So OK, it's not good to look on the nakedness of relatives. this is 1 Law. God goes on to define the word "kin".

"7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

This goes on to verse 18. All defining 1 Law. But the deceivers count the verse above into 2 laws, and through verse 18 into 20 something laws.

So in their deceptive list, they turn one Law, into over 20.

It's the same as having a Speed limit of 55. One Law. But then to continue, "Thou shall not drive 60", "Thou shall not drive 65", "Thou shall not drive 70", "Thou shall not drive 75." And then count this as 5 Laws.

They do this several times in order to inflate the number so high, for the desired effect, and your post perfectly represents the agenda of the deception, and that is to promote or imply that God placed a Yoke of Bondage, 613 Laws on the necks of men, and Jesus had to come save us from God's Laws.

There are instructions for Levite Priests, that do not apply to me. For women, that do not apply to me. Lepers, that do not apply to me. But to promote God's Laws as a Yoke of Bondage, so they can justify lawlessness of their religions, they create the illusion that if I obey ONE Law, I am obligated to obey 613 Laws.

That is not what Paul was teaching.

Can we then agree that Love our Neighbor and Do not Judge are Christ's easy yolk?

 

[Studyman]

Can we then agree that Love our Neighbor and Do not Judge are Christ's easy yolk?

For me, I would have to study the Christ's Words, to see if HE judged between truth and falsehoods. And I would study to see what other of God's commandments HE honored His Father in. And I would study Him to see how HE Loved His Neighbor, so I could understand the Love of God which dwelled within Him. I would study to see the Yoke God placed on Him, that He invited me take. I meant no offence in sharing my exhaustive study into the internet doctrine adopted by so many, that "God required men to obey 613 Laws". It's sad that so many have been influenced by this scam. I do what I can do to expose it in Love of the brethren, but still I find that most people get angry at me for doing so. But that's OK.

 

[Grip Docility]

For me, I would have to study the Christ's Words, to see if HE judged between truth and falsehoods. And I would study to see what other of God's commandments HE honored His Father in. And I would study Him to see how HE Loved His Neighbor, so I could understand the Love of God which dwelled within Him. I would study to see the Yoke God placed on Him, that He invited me take. I meant no offence in sharing my exhaustive study into the internet doctrine adopted by so many, that "God required men to obey 613 Laws". It's sad that so many have been influenced by this scam. I do what I can do to expose it in Love of the brethren, but still I find that most people get angry at me for doing so. But that's OK.

I'm not offended, but instead thankful to see passion for Jesus! I'm just trying to reconcile something that seems to be weight for you, that I can read in your theological postings. Does that make sense?