Unravelling the Law and Justification

[RandyPNW]

Yes, the Sword of the Lord, the Word of God, and the Breastplate of Righteousness. With God's Way, we can endure. With man's way, not so much.

Yep.

I agree. I think Jesus hit on this in Matthew 6. If God can hear our prayers in a closet with the door closed, and tells men not to let the left hand see the Alms of the right hand, then who are men trying to impress with manmade shrines of worship, and bells ringing, and TV broadcasts and praying on the street corners? Certainly, God doesn't need Hollywood to call men to Him, nor does HE dwell in manmade temples made of wood and stone. So who really, are this world's religions trying to be seen by?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that public prayer has ulterior motives, trying to please men rather than God. Solomon prayed at the dedication of the Temple, and it was answered by God's approval.

But generally yes, I agree. Much religion is done to please Man, to benefit from Man. It's an open advertisement that is self-benefitting.

Serving God is done strictly because God is pleased with it, whether Man is pleased or not. We don't go out of our way to insult people by appearing "religious," but we prefer God to Man's advice.

Yes, but it seems prudent point out, that without Love, Respect, Belief in the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, our human fleshy Love for others mean little, in my understanding. My problem in the beginning, more than now, is that I didn't know "HOW" to Love and Honor God, nor did I understand HOW to Love others with a Spiritual Love, and not a fleshy carnal Love. This is where God's instruction in Righteousness is so beneficial to men. He shows me who HE is so I can know Him, as Jesus instructed. What HIS Definition of Holy is. What HIS definition of Clean is, what Days HE Esteems above other days.

Well said, but again, on the matter of "what days to esteem," I have no sense that God does esteem one day above another? Otherwise, yes--good points!

In this way I can submit to His Righteousness, and not be like the Pharisees who went about establishing their own righteousness. Jesus was the perfect example of God's Laws in the Inner man. But without Belief in God, submitting to Him is not possible, in my view.

Agreed. I think virtue comes from God Himself via His word sent to us. When we respond to that word, we obtain His virtue. So faith in the word is the start of practicing virtue that comes from God and pleases God.

I still get goosebumps reading Abraham's Words which shows me that He also understood as I do.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Yes, the Law of Moses was never designed to provide animal sacrifices that could provide final atonement and Eternal Life. Rather, they were designed so that Israel could express faith in God's word that He accepted them by mercy and would ultimately provide His own sacrifice of atonement, namely Christ. We agree on some very important points!

 

[Studyman]

I'm not offended, but instead thankful to see passion for Jesus! I'm just trying to reconcile something that seems to be weight for you, that I can read in your theological postings. Does that make sense?

Yes, I understand your perception "That seems to be weight"! This is the perfect example of the point I am trying to make regarding the 613 Law Myth. This week is Feast of Unleavened Bread. A week where God uses Leavening to keep us in mind of men's addition to sin. We are surrounded by it, we actually crave it. Our own ways, our own desires, our own judgments according to how we were raised taught or indoctrinated. This Feast of the Lord that HE created for His People, and gave to Israel before the 10 commandments, before His Sabbath, the Levitical Priesthood, and so on, is a reminder of how Leaven leavens the whole lump. Since you are trying to reconcile something in the Posts I share with you, please let me share why I posted them.

What I have found, is that it is the "Truth" that leaven, defined as "deception", lies, untruths, falsehoods etc., influences the entire mind of a man, and if introduced into a group of people, influences everyone who adopts it.

I have found also that TRUTH influences the whole mind as well. But men don't Love the Truth, men love darkness, AKA leaven. I know and believe this because the Jesus "of the Bible" told me so. You go 1 week without leavening in your home or body, as the God and Father of the Lord's Christ instructs, and you will never forget this Truth Jesus Gave us in John 3: 19-21.

Jesus said God's "Truth" sets us free. I say God's Truth, because He is the only ONE qualified to define it, in my view. But deception and Sin, places a burden, a bondage on the backs and minds of men. Blindness, confusion, hypocrisy, uncorrectable, unreproachable, unteachable, unchangeable. Paul speaks to this in Rom. 1: 21,22.

Both you and I were born into a world in which its religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, promote various versions of the "613 Law myth". Its purpose to is to further the "Leaven" that God placed unbearable, impossible to follow instructions of the backs of Abraham's children who placed their trust in Him. They imply in this popular religious philosophy, that God lied to His People when HE told them they could keep these impossible Laws, and then HE killed those who didn't by the thousands. Thye then preach that Jesus came to save them from God and His laws they judge as "not moral".

In essence, since we were kids, this world's religions have taught us that God Placed a Yoke of Bondage on Israel's Necks, that God's instruction in Righteousness is the Yoke of Bondage, the Beggarly Elements of this world. And to support this philosophy, they create a deceptive narrative that God required every man to obey 613 Laws, or that if I keep one of God's Laws, I am required to keep "ALL" 613.

This leaven has influenced our entire mind. Every time we see the word "Yoke" or burden or bondage in the Scriptures, our mind automatically goes to God's Law, "Mosiac Law", Law of Moses, etc. Because I placed my trust in God, like Caleb and Joshua, having read and believed the examples HE had written specifically for me, "Apon whom the ends of the world have come", and I took my perceptions, my beliefs, my understanding to the Light, the Word of God which became Flesh, as did Caleb, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, Peter, James, etc., and many more Faithful examples of faithful men did. What I found was according to Scriptures, God's Laws and Instruction are not the Yoke of Bondage that weighted Israel down. That God wasn't the one who led Israel astray or deceived them. God Loves men, and His Laws are His Love created beforehand that they should turn away from this world and its religions and follow Him, so that it will be well with them. And HE in turn gives men who are "Learned of Him, to His Son, the Lord's Christ "of the Bible" for Cleansing.

It was hard for me in the beginning to accept that the religions of my family had promoted lies about God. And it was humiliating to accept that I had lived so long believing a lie. Even when the Scriptures pointed out to me, that this is the curse of the influence of leaven, I still struggled letting the Light of God expose the darkness within me, working to defend myself, and preserve the religious philosophies of my fathers. Why was that I asked? And Jesus told me, "Because men Love Darkness rather than Light".

So in closing, I perfectly understand why you would look at anyone who is promoting obedience to God as being "a weight on them". I am hoping that you will consider the "Truth" about the 613 Law myth and let God's truth influence you in the same way the leaven did, and when you read "yoke of Bondage" in scriptures, you will remember that this means something, but not that God placed on the necks of those who trusted Him unbearable, impossible to live by, Laws.

Sorry so long winded.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, I understand your perception "That seems to be weight"! This is the perfect example of the point I am trying to make regarding the 613 Law Myth. This week is Feast of Unleavened Bread. A week where God uses Leavening to keep us in mind of men's addition to sin. We are surrounded by it, we actually crave it. Our own ways, our own desires, our own judgments according to how we were raised taught or indoctrinated. This Feast of the Lord that HE created for His People, and gave to Israel before the 10 commandments, before His Sabbath, the Levitical Priesthood, and so on, is a reminder of how Leaven leavens the whole lump. Since you are trying to reconcile something in the Posts I share with you, please let me share why I posted them.

What I have found, is that it is the "Truth" that leaven, defined as "deception", lies, untruths, falsehoods etc., influences the entire mind of a man, and if introduced into a group of people, influences everyone who adopts it.

I have found also that TRUTH influences the whole mind as well. But men don't Love the Truth, men love darkness, AKA leaven. I know and believe this because the Jesus "of the Bible" told me so. You go 1 week without leavening in your home or body, as the God and Father of the Lord's Christ instructs, and you will never forget this Truth Jesus Gave us in John 3: 19-21.

Jesus said God's "Truth" sets us free. I say God's Truth, because He is the only ONE qualified to define it, in my view. But deception and Sin, places a burden, a bondage on the backs and minds of men. Blindness, confusion, hypocrisy, uncorrectable, unreproachable, unteachable, unchangeable. Paul speaks to this in Rom. 1: 21,22.

Both you and I were born into a world in which its religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, promote various versions of the "613 Law myth". Its purpose to is to further the "Leaven" that God placed unbearable, impossible to follow instructions of the backs of Abraham's children who placed their trust in Him. They imply in this popular religious philosophy, that God lied to His People when HE told them they could keep these impossible Laws, and then HE killed those who didn't by the thousands. Thye then preach that Jesus came to save them from God and His laws they judge as "not moral".

In essence, since we were kids, this world's religions have taught us that God Placed a Yoke of Bondage on Israel's Necks, that God's instruction in Righteousness is the Yoke of Bondage, the Beggarly Elements of this world. And to support this philosophy, they create a deceptive narrative that God required every man to obey 613 Laws, or that if I keep one of God's Laws, I am required to keep "ALL" 613.

This leaven has influenced our entire mind. Every time we see the word "Yoke" or burden or bondage in the Scriptures, our mind automatically goes to God's Law, "Mosiac Law", Law of Moses, etc. Because I placed my trust in God, like Caleb and Joshua, having read and believed the examples HE had written specifically for me, "Apon whom the ends of the world have come", and I took my perceptions, my beliefs, my understanding to the Light, the Word of God which became Flesh, as did Caleb, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, Peter, James, etc., and many more Faithful examples of faithful men did. What I found was according to Scriptures, God's Laws and Instruction are not the Yoke of Bondage that weighted Israel down. That God wasn't the one who led Israel astray or deceived them. God Loves men, and His Laws are His Love created beforehand that they should turn away from this world and its religions and follow Him, so that it will be well with them. And HE in turn gives men who are "Learned of Him, to His Son, the Lord's Christ "of the Bible" for Cleansing.

It was hard for me in the beginning to accept that the religions of my family had promoted lies about God. And it was humiliating to accept that I had lived so long believing a lie. Even when the Scriptures pointed out to me, that this is the curse of the influence of leaven, I still struggled letting the Light of God expose the darkness within me, working to defend myself, and preserve the religious philosophies of my fathers. Why was that I asked? And Jesus told me, "Because men Love Darkness rather than Light".

So in closing, I perfectly understand why you would look at anyone who is promoting obedience to God as being "a weight on them". I am hoping that you will consider the "Truth" about the 613 Law myth and let God's truth influence you in the same way the leaven did, and when you read "yoke of Bondage" in scriptures, you will remember that this means something, but not that God placed on the necks of those who trusted Him unbearable, impossible to live by, Laws.

Sorry so long winded.

What do you make of our Lord and Savior's words Here: John 6:29

Your specific articulation in speech is appreciated. I don't mind the idea of "obedience" to God... but I do mind if it is thrown as a prerequisite to salvation. My logic is thus... God dies for humanity in totality and John 3:16 now exists. He died so we can be SAVED, have our debt of Sin fully paid, etc etc. My question to myself becomes... HOW POWERFUL IS THAT BLOOD in reference to John 3:16... 50 percent effective? 99 percent effective? How much of my debt of sin did it pay to bring me home. I have grown to believe, that since it was the very blood of God, that it is 100 percent effective, despite sinful me. Does that logic, at the very least, make sense to you?

 

[Studyman]

Well said, but again, on the matter of "what days to esteem," I have no sense that God does esteem one day above another? Otherwise, yes--good points!

Yes, this is a sticking point for many. But if a man just considers the Holy Scriptures, and not religious doctrines of traditions of this world, I'm not sure how a man can come to the conclusion that God, the God of the bible, didn't Esteem one day above another. I'm not arguing to keep or not to keep commandments regarding God's definition of Holy, nor am I judging either way. Each man must be fully persuaded in their own mind who to "yield themselves" servants to obey, as Paul teaches. But just from the truth of Scriptures, what is actually written, the God of Abraham most certainly Esteemed days, over other days. At least that is my understanding.

Does it matter? I'll let others argue that.

Agreed. I think virtue comes from God Himself via His word sent to us. When we respond to that word, we obtain His virtue. So faith in the word is the start of practicing virtue that comes from God and pleases God.

Yes, this is true. God's Word in the inward man, influences the man for the good, in my view. If I see a sign, "if you are thirsty, drink this water", and I see the sign, and I understand what it says, but I don't drink, then what benefit is the water to me? This is why God and Jesus and Paul all taught that being a "Doer" of God's instruction, and not a hearer only, is required to experience the benefit. I love how you said "Obtain HIS Virtue".

John 6: 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Yes, the Law of Moses was never designed to provide animal sacrifices that could provide final atonement and Eternal Life. Rather, they were designed so that Israel could express faith in God's word that He accepted them by mercy and would ultimately provide His own sacrifice of atonement, namely Christ. We agree on some very important points!

Great topic, be careful out there Randy.

 

[Studyman]

What do you make of our Lord and Savior's words Here: John 6:29

Truly I believe EVERY Word of the Lord's Christ.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This would mean believing what is written below, Yes?

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And this as well, Yes?

John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and "believeth on him that sent me", hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And this as well, Yes?

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And this also, Yes?

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And lastly,

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So then, men who believe on this Christ, have eternal life, Yes?

Your specific articulation in speech is appreciated. I don't mind the idea of "obedience" to God... but I do mind if it is thrown as a prerequisite to salvation. My logic is thus... God dies for humanity in totality and John 3:16 now exists. He died so we can be SAVED, have our debt of Sin fully paid, etc etc. My question to myself becomes... HOW POWERFUL IS THAT BLOOD in reference to John 3:16... 50 percent effective? 99 percent effective? How much of my debt of sin did it pay to bring me home. I have grown to believe, that since it was the very blood of God, that it is 100 percent effective, despite sinful me. Does that logic, at the very least, make sense to you?

Every person who I have ever talked to, who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, has grown to believe he is saved. EVERY Catholic, Every JW, Every SDA member, Every LDS Member, Every Calvinist, Everyone. It doesn't matter which manmade shrine of worship I go to, the teaching is the same, "you are saved". This is not a judgment, just an absolute fact. Is "Everyone" who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, accepted by God into the Kingdom of Heaven? Do the Scriptures have anything to do with Salvation at all? Do the Warnings of the Jesus of the Bible mean anything? Does His instruction I posted above have anything to do with Salvation? This is what I have asked myself.

It is written in the Law and Prophets;

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

This same Christ became a man in the person of Jesus and said the following;

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The point of my reply to you regarding the 613 Law myth, is to show that it is a lie, a deception. Now men may believe it, and those who do are called "Deceived". I say these things out of Love from my heart, knowing that men's initial reaction will be to defend them self, just as I have.

I posted Jesus Words above, because we are told that to enter God's Kingdom, we must believe in the Jesus "of the Bible", and His Father who sent Him.

This Jesus was worried about the future for His Disciples, just as HE was worried about Israel when HE was up where HE was before, and warned them, not about Islam, or Buddhism or Satanism, or even Atheists. As you can see, HE was most worried about religious men "Who come in His Name" who "Profess to know God". but promote falsehoods about God (like the 613 Laws myth we debunked). He warned of the same thing when HE was up where HE was before. It's in your own Bible, all a man needs to do, is humble themselves in belief.

What I hope to impart, is that Salvation is not about what men think, or this religious business promotes, or that religious sect teaches. Salvation, or "Life" as Jesus calls it, is determined and defined by the God who created it, and the Path to Salvation is created by HIM as well. Not the Pope, not Calvin, not Westley, or anyone else.

So I will leave this conversation with the warnings of Paul regarding the examples God had written specifically for us, out of Love for the Brethren.

1 Cor. 10: 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him "that thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yes, this is a sticking point for many. But if a man just considers the Holy Scriptures, and not religious doctrines of traditions of this world, I'm not sure how a man can come to the conclusion that God, the God of the bible, didn't Esteem one day above another. I'm not arguing to keep or not to keep commandments regarding God's definition of Holy, nor am I judging either way. Each man must be fully persuaded in their own mind who to "yield themselves" servants to obey, as Paul teaches. But just from the truth of Scriptures, what is actually written, the God of Abraham most certainly Esteemed days, over other days. At least that is my understanding.

Does it matter? I'll let others argue that.

Nicely put. But to be clear, I'm not going to say that God does not, at some point, differentiate and esteem some days more important than other days. In a marriage, a couple would esteem their anniversary date more important than somebody else's anniversary date! God may esteem the day you converted to Him more important than the date you set to go fishing on a Sunday.

But more seriously, we know God did esteem the Sabbath Day more important for Israel than it was for other nations during the time of the Law of Moses. So we wouldn't argue about that. Thanks for your gracious spirit.

Yes, this is true. God's Word in the inward man, influences the man for the good, in my view. If I see a sign, "if you are thirsty, drink this water", and I see the sign, and I understand what it says, but I don't drink, then what benefit is the water to me? This is why God and Jesus and Paul all taught that being a "Doer" of God's instruction, and not a hearer only, is required to experience the benefit. I love how you said "Obtain HIS Virtue".

John 6: 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

I know by experience that all of the glory belongs to Him! And I love how I feel when He imparts His "virtue" to me. I can never boast that the love I exhibit is strictly from me. Divine love comes only from the Divine.

I don't think the angels spend time looking in the mirror. I think their faces are always looking away from themselves to the Lord because it is Him who they serve. We should keep our face looking at the Lord, also, all the time, out of sheer gratitude, but also to acknowledge Him as our Creator, Lord, and friend.

Great topic, be careful out there Randy.

So friendly! How rare that is. Blessings....

 

[KevinT]

I'm joining the conversation late. I have read many great posts in detail and have scanned others. I need to get on this forum more often to not be late to the party.

I see some saying, "keeping God's law is important for salvation." Other says, "No, having Faith is what God requires for salvation."

I see this as a direct consequence of what one considers "Salvation" to mean. Is salvation an entry ticket to heaven? Or is salvation an avoidance avoidance of the consequences of stupidity (sin)?

For those believing that salvation is the result of something we do (i.e. follow a law, or believe a certain truth, or have a certain kind of faith), in order to please God, so that He then grants us eternal life, then it seems to me this is a constant cause of anxiety. Do I really have the formula right? Do I have the right mixture of faith and works? What is faith? What kind of works? Have I fallen into the ditch of legalism or cheap grace? One can never know, until the day of judgement -- and then of course it is too late then.

The second understanding seems much more rational to me. When the book of Proverbs warns against falling into the clutches of a prostitute, then the man who listens to this warning is "saved", and there is no mystery or confusion about this. You look and see that he still has a happy family. Likewise, in Matt 24, when Jesus warned his followers to flee to the countryside when they saw the abomination standing in the holy place, all who believe Him (had faith in Him) followed His guidance, fled Jerusalem during the time the army drew back, and thereby were "saved" from the slaughter of those living in Jerusalem when Rome sacked it. There was no mystery about who was "saved" -- you could count all those that escaped.

If a child scribbles, "I hate you" on the living room wall with a permanent marker, a parent can give them "grace", and "forgiveness". Through loving guidance, they can help their child grow and mature into a useful member of society. They will thereby "save" them from conflicts with police and a life in prison.

This kind of "salvation" makes much more sense to me, as compared to trying to figure out what combination of thoughts in my head will convince God to change me from the "naughty" to "nice" list.

What do you think?
Kevin