All Israel Will Be Saved ?

[RileyG]

It's not about the sacredness of the curtain.
Where is that coming from?

The Ark was sacred, not the curtain.

I misunderstood, mea culpa.

 

[Clare73]

I misunderstood, mea culpa.

Mea maxima culpa. . .

 

[Carl Emerson]

An object does not have to be worshiped to be considered sacred.

The curtain and what it stood for in Judaism would have been regarded with deep respect.

If it was anything like the curtain mentioned in Exodus, it would have been very elaborate and painstakingly made with much prayer and dedication.

If desecration means harming an object considered set apart for spiritual purpose than God certainly desecrated it.

 

[joeLightening]

Paul speaks clearly that not all Israel is Israel. All gentile believers are equally Israel. Only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. The times of the gentiles will be filled and then we can say that all Israel is saved.

It is tough for someone to hear this when they have been misguided by so many false teachers. It was difficult for me when I was learning these things. It went against everything I had been taught my whole life about Israel. Now though there is peace about it. God is so good!

 

[Clare73]

Paul speaks clearly that not all Israel is Israel. All gentile believers are equally Israel. Only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. The times of the gentiles will be filled and then we can say that all Israel is saved.

It is tough for someone to hear this when they have been misguided by so many false teachers. It was difficult for me when I was learning these things. It went against everything I had been taught my whole life about Israel. Now though there is peace about it. God is so good!

Christianity is besotted now with false teaching about the Jews, to the detriment of Christology and ecclesiology.

 

[ralliann]

It is possible that at some future time the Nation of Israel will come to repentance.

Art Katz used to say that the Jews will be expelled from the Land and return again in repentance.

I am no expert on end times so am content to wait and see...

I tend to agree. They are still called in Isaac, which the law 430 years after cannot be revoked.
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Ge 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

 

[Clare73]

I tend to agree. They are still called in Isaac, which the law 430 years after cannot be revoked.
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Keeping in mind that they are being fulfilled in a remnant (Ro 1:11-5).

The first Abrahamic covenant of the land promise (Ge 15:9-21) is fulfilled (Josh 21:43, 23:14),
the second Abrahamic covenant to be their God is fulfilled with the cross,
the temporarily-added until Christ (Gal 3:19) third Mosaic covenant was made obsolete by the fourth covenant (Heb 8:13),
the fourth covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is fulfilled to everyone to whom it is made when they are born again (Heb 8:7-13).

The promise of the return to the land was fulfilled under Nehemiah and Ezra, where the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people re-dedicated themselves to God with great joy and rejoicing which could be heard from afar.

God's program for Israel is completed.
The only program remaining for Israel is that of Ro 11:16-23, to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, going all the way back to Abraham, IF they do not persist in unbelief, which they have for two millennia now.

 

[ralliann]

Keeping in mind that they are being fulfilled in a remnant (Ro 1:11-5).

The apostolic Church is that yes. The church of the firstborn.

The first Abrahamic covenant of the land promise (Ge 15:9-21) is fulfilled (Josh 21:43, 23:14),
the second Abrahamic covenant to be their God is fulfilled with the cross,
the temporarily-added until Christ (Gal 3:19) third Mosaic covenant was made obsolete by the fourth covenant (Heb 8:13),
the fourth covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is fulfilled to everyone to whom it is made when they are born again (Heb 8:7-13).

The promise of the return to the land was fulfilled under Nehemiah and Ezra, where the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people re-dedicated themselves to God with great joy and rejoicing which could be heard from afar.

God's program for Israel is completed.
The only program remaining for Israel is that of Ro 11:16-23, to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, going all the way back to Abraham, IF they do not persist in unbelief, which they have for two millennia now.

Their call in Isaac is not abolished. While this world and this life remain, they will remain a nation. He is able to graft them in again.

 

[Clare73]

The apostolic Church is that yes. The church of the firstborn.

Their call in Isaac is not abolished. While this world and this life remain, they will remain a nation. He is able to graft them in again.

Depending on their no longer persisting in unbelief (Ro 11:23), right?

 

[ralliann]

Depending on their no longer persisting in unbelief (Ro 11:23), right?

For a heavenly inheritance yes. But they remain a nation with promises still concerning the land. And until this world and this life is gone they will, the earthly promise remains of Gen 15. Gen 17 is the heavenly promise. Yes belief is required for that. Two covenants with Abraham. They need belief to gain the second.

 

[Clare73]

For a heavenly inheritance yes. But they remain a nation with promises still concerning the land.

But Scripture states that the promise of the land has been fulfilled (1 Kg 4:21, 24-25), both in full possession and full occupation.
Likewise, the promise of return to the land was fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah, when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt, and the people rededicated themselves to God with great joy and rejoicing that could be heard from afar.

The NT likewise states that the promise of an everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 38:4) is fulfilled in the heavenly land (Heb 11:13-6).
So Scripture presents no promise of land remaining.

Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church is that the only "promise" remaining to Israel is to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16-22), IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

 

[ralliann]

But Scripture states that the promise of the land has been fulfilled (1 Kg 4:21, 24-25), both in full possession and full occupation.
Likewise, the promise of return to the land was fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah, when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt, and the people rededicated themselves to God with great joy and rejoicing that could be heard from afar.

The NT likewise states that the promise of an everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 38:4) is fulfilled in the heavenly land (Heb 11:13-6).
So Scripture presents no promise of land remaining.

Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church is that the only "promise" remaining to Israel is to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16-22), IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

As a nation the earthly inheritance, God's covenant promises to Abraham in 2 covenants.. to keep and fulfill complete...
Ge 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Elect and called in Isaac. Which IMO, as long as this earth endures The promise of the covenant gen 17, is available to them for the taking. Even though some will not take it.
Purpose.....
I think this has to do with being an agent/vessel on the earth of Judgment of Evil.
Deut 4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Ge 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

1Ch 16:21 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,
Ps 105:14 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;

like Noah
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[Guojing]

Paul speaks clearly that not all Israel is Israel. All gentile believers are equally Israel.

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

 

[John Helpher]

It seems to me in Verse 8 suggesting that just because you are Jewish does not make you part of God's Children.

Check out Exodus 33:1-3. He's essentially saying these people are so bad that he can't even spend 5 minutes around them without wanting to destroy them. It's we humans who have made heroes of these people, whereas Jesus told us to instead look for what comes out of the heart.

 

[atpollard]

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

It does, but he left out the intermediate steps [scripture] that connects the dots ...

• [Rom 9:6-8 NASB20] 6 But [it is] not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are [descended] from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE NAMED." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
• [Rom 2:12-16 NASB20] 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for [it is] not the hearers of the Law [who] are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law [who] will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the [requirements] of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
• [Rom 2:25-29 NASB20] 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter [of the Law] and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Q.E.D.
"Paul speaks clearly that not all Israel is Israel. All gentile believers are equally Israel." - @joeLightening

 

[Clare73]

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

It follows from Scripture nevertheless (Ro 11:1-5).

 

[Guojing]

It does, but he left out the intermediate steps [scripture] that connects the dots ...

• [Rom 9:6-8 NASB20] 6 But [it is] not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are [descended] from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE NAMED." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
• [Rom 2:12-16 NASB20] 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for [it is] not the hearers of the Law [who] are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law [who] will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the [requirements] of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
• [Rom 2:25-29 NASB20] 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter [of the Law] and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Q.E.D.
"Paul speaks clearly that not all Israel is Israel. All gentile believers are equally Israel." - @joeLightening

Not all Israel is true Israel.
True Israel are those from Israel who obey God.

Would this be equally logical?

 

[atpollard]

Not all Israel is true Israel.
True Israel are those from Israel who obey God.

Would this be equally logical?

Children of the PROMISE are decedents of Abraham.
Gentiles can have the Law written on their heart.
A Jew is defined by circumcision of the heart.

From these TRUTHS revealed by Paul and the Holy Spirit, @joeLightening was correct to say that Israel included gentiles, too.

 

[Aaron112]

Gentiles can have the Law written on their heart.

As in Romans chapter 2 .....

 

[Guojing]

Children of the PROMISE are decedents of Abraham.
Gentiles can have the Law written on their heart.
A Jew is defined by circumcision of the heart.

From these TRUTHS revealed by Paul and the Holy Spirit, @joeLightening was correct to say that Israel included gentiles, too.

Which passage from Paul did you used to get that conclusion "Israel included gentiles, too"?