gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath -- even in the OT Sabbath made for mankind

[BobRyan]

'Man' in the context in which it is generally used in the context of Genesis could equally be 'mankind' (because it doesn't mean man vs woman - it includes men and women.) If we think 'mankind' we think 'everyone who lives on Planet Earth.' That is the problem. What if the Bible doesn't mean everyone on Planet Earth? Then we have used the wrong word.

That would be true - but where has it been proven that this is not "mankind"??

Hence my suggestion that we use something close to the original to not confuse it with man(kind.) Because I believe that adam and his descendants were not all of mankind.

And why do you believe such a thing??

That mankind lived long before adam came onto the scene.

No text for that either?

And I believe the Bible backs me up on this.

Not in Romans 5.
Not in Genesis 1.
Not in Genesis 2.
Not in Matthew 5.
Not in 1 Tim 2.

I'm not sure why you quoted Isa 66:23. It doesn't mention man/adam in that verse.

Because I like verses that are on the topic of the thread so in the case of this thread - showing that Sabbath is intended for "all mankind"

The translation is 'all flesh.' Strong's says that word is 'basar.'

So then "all mankind" as opposed to say... "man and birds"

 

[Jesse Johnson]

Wow, this thread is hilarious. Especially when the strict interpreters of the Sabbath actually violate the Sabbath while arguing about the Sabbath several consecutive Sabbaths.

What's really odd is the Sabbath-keeping "expertise" feigned by folks with little to no Sabbath-keeping experience or knowledge at all. And the way these folks expect modern Sabbath-keepers to perform as the Pharisees expected, which Christ often cited as Sabbath-yoking.

 

[HARK!]

What's really odd is the Sabbath-keeping "expertise" feigned by folks with little to no Sabbath-keeping experience or knowledge at all. And the way these folks expect modern Sabbath-keepers to perform as the Pharisees expected, which Christ often cited as Sabbath-yoking.

So far you seem to be the only one talking about the expectations of the Pharisees. Would you care to point out the basis for this assertion?

 

[Jesse Johnson]

So far you seem to be the only one talking about the expectations of the Pharisees. Would you care to point out the basis for this assertion?

I wouldn't call it an assertion. It wasn't meant to be much more than anecdotal. I'm not very familiar with the Talmud at all. Not sure why I got an "agree" rating on a rebuttal. I've heard that the Pharisees had ludicrous rules like the prohibition of cracking an egg and laying it out in the open lest the sunlight somehow cook it. Sounds a little farfetched to me but I guess you never know. All I was getting at was that people tend to consider themselves experts in the the things they oppose when, in reality, they usually only gather up enough cursory information as might help them to keep an argument going. (I have a nagging sense of guilt in this respect when I rebut harsh Calvinism posts.) I don't, however, believe that that Talmudic law was the only thing nailed to the cross.

 

[ripple the car]

Nope. Sabbath came through Moses.

Christ came for the Nations.

You can not separate the specific commandment to rest on the Sabbath from the entirety of Mosaic Law. The Law of Moses was not given to the world. Christ was.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

Nope. Sabbath came through Moses.

The Sabbath belongs explicitly to the Lord thy God.
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
Exodus 20:10

Christ came for the Nations.

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24
Read Romans, ch. 11, if you care to. It describes what Israel actually is.

You can not separate the specific commandment to rest on the Sabbath from the entirety of Mosaic Law. The Law of Moses was not given to the world. Christ was.

I don't need to. Christ did that already by including it in the ten commandments which He chiseled in stone before the Mosaic law was written.

 

[BobRyan]

Nope. Sabbath came through Moses.

No text says that. in fact Ex 20:11 specifically rejects it.

Christ came for the Nations.

So also is the New Covenant for the Nations -- and it is where Jeremiah reminds us that the "Law is written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34 - The moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - included the Ten in Exodus 20.

Where "the first commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:1-2 is "Honor thy father and mother"

You can not separate the specific commandment to rest on the Sabbath from the entirety of Mosaic Law.

Paul already did that in 1 Cor 7:19 where he contrasted the ceremonial law with the moral law .. the moral law being called "The Commandments of God" in that case.

 

[BobRyan]

The Law of Moses was not given to the world. Christ was.

ALL MANKIND in the case of the Sabbath.

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
Gentiles specifically blessed for Sabbath keeping Isaiah 56:6-8

 

[BobRyan]

Pardon me, but as long as we're being technical, That's 1 Corinthians 15, not Romans 5.

Good point .. not sure why I was even on that - since I was referencing Isaiah 66:23 for "all mankind".

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob. Thanks for the background. I am not a linguist and have never studied Hebrew or Greek. I simply use Strong's concordance to see what the words are.

Which is fine - but Hebrew is a "high context language" unlike English. We have a few words that change meaning depending on context but a lot of them don't change.

Hebrew - not so much -- Hebrew can swing very wide depending on context. So just looking at a concordance ... seeing 5 different uses for the same word (or 25) - then "picking the one you prefer" is not the answer.

In Strong's for example Gen 1:28 it says (and I can't type it exactly because I don't have the keys on my laptop) "'Elohiym bara adam." Strong's says that adam is pronounced aw-dawm. Now I can't see how the English 'man' is close to this

You are going for "how to say the sound" instead of "what would that word mean in Hebrew given the context of that sentence/chapter".

There is a difference.

 

[HARK!]

Nope. Sabbath came through Moses.

Christ came for the Nations.

You can not separate the specific commandment to rest on the Sabbath from the entirety of Mosaic Law. The Law of Moses was not given to the world. Christ was.

Messiah told the world to follow his example. Messiah kept the Torah, that his Father gave to Moses.

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 56 - blessing on those who choose not to profane the things of God - specifically God's Sabbath.

Isaiah 56:6
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

NASB: “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;

NKJV: “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

Why does God want gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath?

"the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Ex 20:11 the Sabbath was made holy in Genesis 2:1-2 - for mankind

Acts 13 gentiles that hear the gospel insist that it be preached to them "the NEXT Sabbath"

Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles - hear the gospel preached.

I think some people were not expecting that text in Isaiah 56:6-8

 

[Doveaman]

Isaiah 56 - blessing on those who choose not to profane the things of God - specifically God's Sabbath.

Isaiah 56:6
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

NASB: “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;

NKJV: “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

Why does God want gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath?

"the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Ex 20:11 the Sabbath was made holy in Genesis 2:1-2 - for mankind

Acts 13 gentiles that hear the gospel insist that it be preached to them "the NEXT Sabbath"

Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles - hear the gospel preached.

Isaiah 56:
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

Is God here referring to the physical Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, or is He referring to the spiritual Sabbath that is fulfilled in the body of Christ (Colossians 2:16-17)?

Is God here referring to physical sacrifices as were offered in the temple at Jerusalem, or is He referring to the spiritual sacrifices that are fulfilled in the temple of Christ's body (Hebrews 10:1-10)?

Since the Sabbath and the sacrifices in Isaiah 56 are written in the same context, then they both are to be interpreted and understood in the same context.

And since we understand that the sacrifices in Isaiah 56 have found their true fulfillment in Christ, then it is also to be understood that the Sabbath in Isaiah 56 has found its true fulfillment in Christ as well.

Isaiah 56, therefore, is not referring to the physical Sabbath and sacrifices observed by the Jews in Jerusalem, but is referring to the spiritual Sabbath and sacrifices that are now fulfilled in Christ on the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 56:
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

Is God here referring to the physical Sabbath on the seventh day of the week,

Yes -

or is He referring to the spiritual Sabbath that is fulfilled in the body of Christ

I don't know of any place in the OT where God refers to "profaning a non-literal , only-spiritual, every-day Sabbath" - if you have such an example please show us.

It appears to be pretty obvious when it comes to the context within which Jeremiah and his readers would have understood the terms.

Since the Sabbath and the sacrifices in Isaiah 56 are written in the same context, then they both are to be interpreted and understood in the same context.

Certainly it can be agreed that they are referring to that which is commanded in God's Word and Jeremiah and his readers would have certainly accepted that context. In their age animal sacrifices were "real" and even gentiles were offering them as part of an act of worship.

Isaiah 56, therefore, is not referring to the physical Sabbath and sacrifices

That would be hard to prove given that Jeremiah and his readers knew that Sabbath and even sacrifices were physical realities specified in the Word of God.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Nope. Sabbath came through Moses.

Christ came for the Nations.

You can not separate the specific commandment to rest on the Sabbath from the entirety of Mosaic Law. The Law of Moses was not given to the world. Christ was.

NO. Read Genesis. Yeshua came to Israel, the Nations are grafted into Israel. There were many times when only portions of Torah could be kept because there was no temple, etc...

 

[Doveaman]

I don't know of any place in the OT where God refers to "profaning a non-literal , only-spiritual, every-day Sabbath" - if you have such an example please show us.

Israel under Moses were led by Christ in the cloud and through the red sea. Their disobedience to Christ was their violation of the spiritual Sabbath-rest that is Him (Colossians 2:16-17).

"For they were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. For they all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." - (1 Corinthians 10:3-4).

In addition, we also have a place in the NT where God refers to profaning a literal , only-physical, weekly-Sabbath:

"Have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" (Matthew 12:5)

The priests in the physical temple violated the weekly-Sabbath, but yet they remained innocent. This is because the physical temple work was more important to God than the weekly-Sabbath rest.

The spiritual temple work we now do for God in the body of Christ is even more important, and we, too, remain innocent even when the weekly-Sabbath is violated, because "the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." - (Mark 2:23-28).

 

[BobRyan]

Israel under Moses were led by Christ in the cloud and through the red sea. Their disobedience to Christ was their violation of the spiritual Sabbath-rest that is Him (Colossians 2:16-17).

Col 2 does not mention an every-day spiritual Sabbath or Israel at the red sea. But we do see Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glory in Matthew 17 - is this what you are referring to?

Here we find "spiritual Rock" - but not "spiritual every-day Sabbath"

"For they were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. For they all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." - (1 Corinthians 10:3-4).

In addition, we also have a place in the OT where God refers to profaning a literal , only-physical, weekly-Sabbath: Isaiah 56:6-8 and gentiles that choose not to do it.

"Have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" (Matthew 12:5)

Is a great example of showing that pastors and priests work on the Sabbath in their job. Which was the same NT and OT and is not evil as Christ points out.

"the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." - (Mark 2:23-28).

Which means it is the Lord's day - and is not to be profaned/ignored/set-aside.

But there is no "every day is Sabbath" in OT or NT