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Trickster Christ and the Second Fall: A New Framework for Understanding the Kingdom of God

This study interprets the Kingdom of God as a divine drama where angelic autonomy exists through unilateral contradiction, and salvation emerges through the completion rather than reversal of the Fall. Please offer your critical views.

The Kingdom of God exists within the divine mind as a semi-autonomous realm where angelic beings experience genuine freedom while remaining encompassed within God's consciousness. Drawing on Constantin Noica's concept of unilateral contradiction, the paper argues that while angels contradict God by asserting independence, God encompasses their opposition within divine unity. Tolkien's Silmarillion illustrates this principle through Ilúvatar's incorporation of Melkor's discord into a greater harmony.

Contrary to modern immanentist theology, the Church Fathers understood God's Kingdom primarily as celestial reality. While the celestial realm maintains ontological priority, the earthly Kingdom manifests within individual souls through recognition of the world's emptiness—a detachment that opens hearts to the Holy Spirit.

The paper reframes participation (methexis) as engagement in divine drama rather than sharing in divine substance. While medieval sacramental ontology is obsolete, creatures participate in dramatic forms within the celestial Kingdom. Creation maintains genuine autonomy and productive capacity, as Genesis reveals the earth itself 'bringing forth' life. Through unilateral contradiction, God encompasses rather than opposes autonomous creation.

Christ appears as redemptive trickster, paralleling Satan as dark trickster. However, Christ completes rather than reverses the Fall. Satan's incomplete fall preserved residual enchantment through which demonic powers maintained dominion. Christ initiated a 'Second Fall'—cosmic disenchantment that dissolved the sacral order, creating the void into which the Spirit descended at Pentecost.

This disenchantment represents liberation rather than abandonment. Our modern world of impersonal laws reflects Christ's dismantling of spiritual bondage. Paul advanced this disenchantment by declaring pagan idols 'nothing.' While most succumb to nihilism, a remnant attains salvation through connection to the transcendent Kingdom.

The Church serves protective-therapeutic rather than salvific functions. Following the Christus Medicus tradition, it protects humanity from residual demonic forces while providing spiritual therapy. However, mature Christians transcend ecclesiastical participation for direct communion with the Kingdom.

The Eucharist represents Christianity's controlled accommodation to humanity's need for material-spiritual mediation. Like a vaccine, it satisfies theophagy impulses without allowing descent into paganism. The Eucharist redirects pagan tendencies while preserving broader disenchantment. Extending eucharistic presence universally, as ressourcement theology proposes, would recreate the pagan cosmology Christianity intended to overcome.

Read the paper here: Divine Drama and Cosmic Disenchantment: The Kingdom of God as Dramatic Participation

Not a lot of respect for men

Thank you I don't use NLT.

I always refer to what is expected of husbands and men such as Ephesians 5:25: and Eph. 4:32 for EVERY Christian, male or female. If a man loves Christ, he will treat a woman with utmost kindness and respect! I love God's word and don't think verses that seem to put women down should be taken out of context. For instance, my mother left an abusive alcoholic husband. And I thank God for that.
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Daniel 12 ended 70 AD

Daniel 12

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.
(this is about the war in heaven in Rev 12 Michael vs the devil. The war happened when Jesus said ◄ John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out, and Luke 10 18 And He said unto them, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.)

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
(this is about 70 AD. Jesus said it would be great tribulation greater than ever has been or would be - in context of the pre messianic, and Mosaic age, and 70 AD was the end of OT Israel, and the Mosaic age never to return ever again).


But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
(prophecy of massive resurrection of the dead of every Israelite, "Daniels people"= Israelites, in the OT . The book is Gods book with his people in it referenced in Exodus 32:32–33, then in Revelation there is the lambs book which might just be NT times book with Christians names in it.)


4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
(the end means the end of the Mosaic age 70 AD not the end of time. Seal it because it won't happen until 70 AD. Could increase in knowledge be in reference to the Qumran sect which went back to books like 1 Enoch, Test of the 12, Jubilees? )

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
(3.5 years. 66 AD start of Judean Roman wars-70 AD temple destroyed or 70-73 AD ending with suicide at Masada. Daily sacrifices stopped both 66, and 70 AD in Josephus).

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.


Christians were purified 30-70 AD when they died for their faith- John Baptist, Stephen, Antipas are 3 named in the bible then there were more under Nero in the 60s AD
Another approx 3.5 year timeframe so 66-70 AD or 70-73 AD.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

John 5


25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
(same language as the prophecy of dead raising in Dan 12).

⭐ John 6:39–40

“I will raise him up on the last day.” (last day of the Mosaic covenant 70 AD).

⭐ John 6:44

“No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him… and I will raise him up at the last day.”

⭐ John 11:25–26

“I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in Me… will live even if he dies.”

⭐ Matthew 22:31–32 (also Mark 12:26–27; Luke 20:37–38)

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

⭐ Luke 14:14

“You will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

⭐ Luke 20:35–36

“Those considered worthy to attain… and the resurrection from the dead… can no longer die.”


1 Thessalonians 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(Gospel of Nic explains Jesus took these people to paradise when he was dead for 3 days)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(we who are alive means the apostle writing this text, and other first century Christians 2000 years ago it does not mean in the future)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(this trumpet is in Revelation 10:7,and Rev 1-12 which happened 70 AD. It calls it the mystery of God. Gospel of Nic has more info on the people that raised from the dead the day Jesus died but there was going to be more around 70 AD)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(the living Christians in Judea at this event would of been raptured)

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Now when he was crucified, there was darkness over all the world, and the sun was obscured for half a day, and the stars appeared, but no lustre was seen in them; and the moon lost its brightness, as though tinged with blood; and the world of the departed was swallowed up; so that the very sanctuary of the temple, as they call it, did not appear to the Jews themselves at their fall, but they perceived a chasm in the earth, and the rolling of successive thunders. And amid this terror the dead appeared rising again, as the Jews themselves bore witness, and said that it was Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the twelve patriarchs, and Moses, and Job, who had died before, as they say, some three thousand five hundred years. And there were very many whom I myself saw appearing in the body, and they made lamentation
over the Jews, because of the transgression which was committed by them, and because of the destruction of the Jews and of their law.

1 Corinthians 15


51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

trumpet again Rev 10:7 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” both have the word mystery. We means the first Christians 2000 years ago not us today or future. Same kind of prophecy as the one in Thessalonians above.
Only Rev 1-12 happened 70 AD Rev 13-22 is future. There is a massive raising from the dead in Rev 20-22 which is still future.
The end of the animal apocalypse in 1 Enoch (written pre flood not pseudepigrapha) explains there was a huge spiritual judgement on OT Israelites first century AD too

Shark Feeding Frenzy

This is a short video of a shark feeding frenzy at Byron Bay in New South Wales as reported on the (Australian) ABC online news.


The bay is on the northern side of Cape Byron which is the eastern most point of mainland Australia.

There's a couple of swimmers taking a risk but they may not have been able to see the sharks.


PS - The article mentions a couple of Swiss nationals who were attacked at Crowdy Bay National Park last month. One of them died unfortunately but it seems they may have been swimming in the vicinity of bait balls.

Do other Christians have trouble making friends?

I was wondering if any other Christians are having trouble with making friends. Friendships you're actually happy with and are good for you. It can be with other Christians or non-believers.

I feel like I have trouble. I don't really know where to find other Christians that are like me.

At work I'm around people I do not trust. They lie, they gossip, they're out to get others, etc. So I have to watch what I say and do, and protect myself.

I also haven't been to church in 6 years. I know that's bad. But I'm not impressed with the churches in my area.
I don't have advice other than to have friendly comments when you talk to people. Don't crticize or condemn. Don't complain about your upbringing. I wasn't allowed friends growing up and we moved every year.

How to Win Friends and Influence People is a 1936 self-help book written by Dale Carnegie. Over 30 million copies have been sold worldwide.
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Human/chimp genomic similarity drops to ~85%: for real this time?

Anybody remember me? I was a regular on this forum from 2004 until 2018, after which I mostly moved on to other things. I don't plan on becoming a regular here again, but I'm back for the time being to ask about a recent piece of evolutionary anthropology news.


According to this analysis, when the human and chimpanzee genomes are compared while including portions that hadn't previously been sequenced, their similarity drops from the commonly given 98% value to 84.7%. On the surface this seems valid, and the conclusion has been accepted by Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist who is qualified to evaluate it. Jerry Coyne's post from yesterday is what brought this analysis to my attention.

But there is something odd about this conclusion: it's virtually identical to an argument made in 2012 by Jerry Bergman and Jeffrey Tomkins in the Journal of Creation. Bergman and Tomkins' 2012 argument was that when human and chimpanzee genomes are compared using data typically omitted from these comparisons, the percentage similarity drops to somewhere in the 81-87 percent range. Either the recent analysis by "Origins Unveiled" is an example of a major creationist claim being vindicated by mainstream evolutionary anthropology, or it's a very clever false flag operation by a creationist or Intelligent Design proponent, which was convincing enough for even Jerry Coyne to be fooled.

Looking more closely, I've noticed a few other possible red flags. First, the argument made by "Origins Unveiled" (and accepted by Jerry Coyne) is based on a paper published in Nature on April 9th. The exact same argument made by "Origins Unveiled"—that this paper shows the creationist figure of 81-87% to be correct—was previously made six months ago by Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture. And second, "Origins Unveiled" is a relatively new Twitter account (registered in 2024) without any identifying information, aside from that they were a were considering a Ph.D in evolutionary anthropology until they quit due to "the rampant political correctness I witnessed among professors and students in potential university programs". Some of the account's other posts include accurate summaries of evolutionary anthropology concepts, but a fair number of creationists have legitimate PhDs and have published mainstream biology or geoscience research, so the ability to accurately explain these concepts doesn't prove the account's provenance either way.

I would like some help evaluating whether the "Origins Unveiled" Twitter account is for real, and whether it's a coincidence that they've reached the same conclusion as Luskin (and also previously Bergman and Tomkins), or whether this Twitter account is being operated someone associated with the Discovery Institute who's posing as an evolutionary anthropologist. I suppose it's also possible that this account belongs to a creationist or ID proponent but that the substance of their argument is still correct. I'm aware of one other case where a creationist objection (not to the theory evolution itself, but to the way it's been presented in textbooks) turned out to be valid.

The problem with cherry picking methods of comparison to drop the similarity of chimps and humans to 85% is that the same method make gorrillas and other gorillas less related still.

This means the comparison clearly isn't useful as a demonstration of separate lineage.
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ICE Nativity scenes: Churches reimagine Christmas story amid deportations

You said that there was a distinction between immigrants and refugees. Trump canceled the temporary protected status of Haitians and is sending them back in February. I figured since you made the distinction, you knew something about the places where these folks were being sent back to.

It is about drawing lines, wishy washyism leads to chaos. As an American you should know, your flag has red lines.

But back to reality, the only thing I know of the place apart from the clear waters is, well, what is there to say............

the leaving was the best, but that I can say of many places.
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Well, off we go

Do yourself a big favour. Try to find reputable sources to back up any claims you want to make. And tell anyone who thinks to use that dismal excuse for a human being such as Miller to support anything whatsoever is only illustrating their own gullibility.
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State leaders speak out about plans to expand the Islamic Academy of Alabama

expected that, when presented as evidence of the claim that "Islamism is the biggest and most deadly threat in the world today" that they would at least support that claim.
Thats ridiculous. Nobody does that. We make a statement and then provide evidence and examples as to why we believe that way. You don't hunt for exact quotes of what you say.
In what world does reading and summarizing them back to you constitute ignoring them?

I didn't ignore them. I just thought they weren't any good. You tried to support your claim, but did a bad job of it.
No you ignore the information in them. Put them all together and it clearly shares information ad to why they are dangerous.
Oh, I didn't forget what you said, but it seems like you might have. Here it is again:
So you didn't forget. You just misrepresented.
You're conflating things. For civil marriages, she has the same legal rights as anybody. It's only within the religious community that the various religious rules are imposed. This is no different than the way Christian churches (especially Catholics) handle church rules around divorce and remarriage. Folks have had to petition the diocese for annulments for eons.
You are not really trying to claim that Muslim women have far fewer rights among the Islamist communities are you? How they can be in danger of harm? You are just showing your ignorance of the Islamic communities where these people are coming from and their Islamist ways. You aren't really equating this with the Catholic Church and annulments are you?

You cant be this ignorant of the Islamists.

For some Muslim wives, abuse has no borders

Im sure you'll find a way to ignore rhis too.
Yeah? What hypocritical things do I support from the left?
Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe I have pointed it out in the past. Do you expect me to keep a tally and log each time I do so for future reference? You are going to be disappointed.
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Not a lot of respect for men

Thank you very much for the quick response!

Church roles aside, he still states that women are prone to idleness, gossip etc and can only be redeemed through childbirth.

Why do we have to give birth to redeem ourselves of Eves sin in addition to having to redeem ourselves in the way men do?

Is this culturally specific or time specific or does he mean to apply this across all spans of time for eternity?

The point re: church roles has been brought up in my church and their view is that Paul only meant that women should be submissive and quiet in church due to the culture of Corinth, where he was teaching at the time, but I note that he says a similar thing in Timothy to those in Ephesus. So, this is where Corinth context seems to have made sense but then when off piste.

Thanks so much!
Quote the verses that supposedly support your statements.
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KJV

Some of us were raised with the KJV and it is a source of comfort and nostalgia and often the first time we came across the Bible. The language used isn't a barrier because, when I was growing up, we read it and sought understanding if we didn't understand. We didn't just give up trying to learn out of the effort it required or lack of resource.

Why don't people up their knowledge instead of decry what is from when it was from?

It's great there are newer versions, in more modern text, but I will always say the Lords Prayer via KJV, Psalms 23 etc.

The KJV reminds me of my grandma, church, poetry and the homage and respect language gave to God at the time it was written.

Re: Wycliffe, I read this as well as the Geneva. If I don't understand the phraseology or the letters etc, I find out.
I was given a KJV Bible at age nine. I memorized verses in KJV, especially the Lord's Prayer and Psalm 23.
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KJV

Well, that is a failing in our school system, I guess.

And, the failing in our school system was left as a gap in the failing of our churches who should have taught the correct usage re: phrases/words required if they are using the KJV.
Why expect teachers in schools to teach that "carriages" used to mean "luggage," that "fetched a compass" meant "turned around," etc.? Such meanings are not "correct usage" in the English of today.
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State leaders speak out about plans to expand the Islamic Academy of Alabama

Yup, and thats bad. How many Muslim countries is it outlawed and punishable by death?
And Nigeria. That puts it at about an 80/20 split between Muslim and Christian.

But for illegality of being gay it’s more likely 50/50. This differences seem to be more on the national in question’s view on the death penalty where more bloodthirsty punitive nations pursue the death penalty and more (relatively) liberal ones don’t.
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The Church Divided

I believe the church is taught by GOD through Jesus Christ. Jesus said , John 6:45 , John 14:26 , John said , 1 John 2:27
we have the anointing that teaches us. This is saying we are taught by divine revelation just like the prophets and Apostles were. I do not think that any man or woman can reach anyone spiritual things, only GOD can do this. These shepherds in the churches today think they can do what only GOD can do. The early church was not a one man show. 1 Corinthians 14:29 since we are taught by divine revelation then we must be prophets and prophetesses because no man can teach us. This idea is in the scriptures if you look for it. I believe that that after the deaths of all the Apostles massive deception began and many false churches came and took the name of Christian and perverted it. There is a prophecy in Ezekiel 34 about these false shepherds and what GOD said HE would do about it. This is a hard thing to see but this too is in the scriptures if you search for it.
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KJV

If people choose to speak or act during church, prayer meetings, bible studies, and so on, in a manner that's not how they normally conduct themselves I'd like to suggest there's the actual possibility of a problem.

Holiness and piety are not things that change when we speak in KJ English; they aren't things that we can create or enhance by changing the form of English we use.

What might the implications be of feeling we can?

I think this would usually be a subconscious experience but that actually would make it more serious, not less.
I have attended many denominations. I never heard any group of people who use King James English every day. I can't recall every church I've attended, but a somewhat accurate list is this: Methodist, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist including Southern Baptist, various Mennonite churches, Reformed Church of North America, Presbyterian, non-denominationl, Eastern Orthodox, "Full Gospel" charismatic, and Mormon. Mormons said we should use "Thee" and "Thou" in prayer. It seems silly to me; non-English speaking countries don't.
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KJV

Some of us were raised with the KJV and it is a source of comfort and nostalgia and often the first time we came across the Bible. The language used isn't a barrier because, when I was growing up, we read it and sought understanding if we didn't understand. We didn't just give up trying to learn out of the effort it required or lack of resource.

Why don't people up their knowledge instead of decry what is from when it was from?

It's great there are newer versions, in more modern text, but I will always say the Lords Prayer via KJV, Psalms 23 etc.

The KJV reminds me of my grandma, church, poetry and the homage and respect language gave to God at the time it was written.

Re: Wycliffe, I read this as well as the Geneva. If I don't understand the phraseology or the letters etc, I find out.
That is fine when you know you need to look up a word or phrase. However, there are words and phrases in he KJV which are still used today, but with totally different meanings. Examples are: "carriages", "prevent" and "fetched a compass." Unless you know that such a word or phrase has changed its meaning, you would not see any need to look it up.
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