Hentenza said:

Earthly death

Click to expand...

This would be considered the first death, punishment or not.

Hentenza said:

but the spirit returns to the one who made it

Click to expand...

Yes, and at Judgement Day (hasn't happened yet) the second death happens. Which coincides with Christ's teaching with Matthew 10:28.

Hentenza said:

The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction.

Click to expand...

If you don't want to believe death is not really death. Christ even calls it the "second death". I don't think we need to add or take away from that. And to say, well Christ doesn't really mean death.

And Malachi makes it pretty clear that the wicked will be turned to ashes. That's what a fire does. Which also coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28

We have many verses that state that the wicked will be burned up, shall perish, be cut off, consumed away and so on.

...from the DOJ announcement in 2024 (when it was still a functioning justice department):

“As the former two-term president of Honduras, Juan Orlando Hernández had every opportunity to affect positive change for his country," said U.S. Attorney Damian Williams for the Southern District of New York. "Instead, Hernández helped to facilitate the importation of an almost unfathomable 400 tons of cocaine to this country: billions of individual doses sent to the United States with the protection and support of the former president of Honduras. Now, after years of destructive narco-trafficking of the highest imaginable magnitude, Hernández will spend 45 years where he belongs: in federal prison.”

[...or not, thanks to one Donald J Trump]

"According to court documents, from at least in or about 2004, up to and including in or about 2022, Hernández, the former two-term president of Honduras and former president of the Honduran National Congress, was at the center of one of the largest and most violent drug-trafficking conspiracies in the world. During his political career, Hernández abused his powerful positions and authority in Honduras to facilitate the importation of over 400 tons of cocaine into the U.S. Hernández’s co-conspirators were armed with machine guns and destructive devices, including AK-47s, AR-15s, and grenade launchers, which they used to protect their massive cocaine loads as they transited across Honduras on their way to the United States, protect the money they made from the eventual sale of this cocaine, and guard their drug-trafficking territory from rivals. Hernández received millions of dollars of drug money from some of the largest and most violent drug-trafficking organizations in Honduras, Mexico, and elsewhere, and used those bribes to fuel his rise in Honduran politics. In turn, as Hernández rose to power in Honduras, he provided increased support and protection for his co-conspirators, allowing them to move mountains of cocaine, commit acts of violence and murder, and help turn Honduras into one of the most dangerous countries in the world."

"During his time in office, Hernández publicly promoted legislation and the efforts he purported to undertake in support of anti-narcotics measures in Honduras. At the same time, he protected and enriched the drug traffickers in his inner circle and those who provided him with cocaine-fueled bribes that allowed him to obtain and stay in power in Honduras. For example, Hernández selectively upheld extraditions by supporting and taking credit for extraditions to the United States of certain drug traffickers who threatened his grip on power, while at the same time promising drug traffickers who bribed him and followed his instructions that they would remain safe in Honduras. In addition, Hernández and his co-conspirators abused Honduran institutions, including the Honduran National Police and Honduran military, to protect and grow their conspiracy. Among other things, members of the conspiracy used heavily armed Honduran National Police officers to protect their cocaine loads as they transited through Honduras towards the United States for eventual distribution. Members of the conspiracy also turned to violence and murder to protect and grow their drug trafficking enterprise, attacking and murdering rival traffickers and those who threatened their grip on the Honduran cocaine trade."

[During his time in office, Trump pubicly decried the scourge of illegal drugs on the American people and then pardoned one the facilitator of 400 tons of cocaine into the United States.]

'Discovering Your Spiritual Gifts'
- Kenneth C. Kinghorn
----
Kindle ebook
- 99¢

The HS may or may not happen to us with baptism. It is a sign of the cleansing God has done at getting saved. The HS is responsible for our regeneration though. Sanctification is a work of the HS. The infilling happens when we ask to be in filled. The Holy Spirit . The samaritans had not received the HS until Peter and John showed up. The did not know to ask. So they prayed for them to receive Him and it made a marked difference in them. They became full fledged brethren with the guarantee with the promise, with the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. The fruits God produces in us. A changed life, a new focus, growth in the HS.

some kids do learn respect from their dads and not sparing the rod. That’s the way it is supposed to work. It leads to understanding oftentimes. That’s discipline. The ones who learn well young go the farthest in faith and are spared from learning late in life. A wise dad will teach the way so there is not so much disobedience. I ve seen it work. There is the way for those of us w/o wise dads.

A2SG said:

Won't someone please think of the millionaires!

-- A2SG, such hard lives they have....

Click to expand...

...and politically prosecuted presidents doing their bidding!

Coolerranch said:

Yeah, but how do those things show how God values our lives?

Click to expand...

The books do not mention God directly, to the best of my memory.

Do you think the books would have been stronger if the author had made some of the characters explicitly religious and had them comment on how God would view their situation? Alternatively, would you put God's point of view into the narrator's voice? How do you envision changing the books?

Hentenza said:

Who do you think are those who are now dead?

Click to expand...

It says, “was also preached to those who are now dead“, the gospel was preached unto Abraham and Abraham is now dead. This is the proper understanding of this verse. After death there is no life except in a resurrection from the dead. Jesus said, John 3:13 and this is true. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, the people of his day, Satan holds people in a spiritual prison and only through Jesus can they be set free. Luke 4:18 Isaiah 61:1-2 The popular idea of heaven and hell is not true.

Aryeh Jay said:

The war on drugs is against the down on their luck fishermen and unemployed people given a couple hundred bucks to transport product, not the millionaire rulers of the cartel or the enablers.

Click to expand...

Won't someone please think of the millionaires!

-- A2SG, such hard lives they have....

I had a mistake in the maths at one point not doing things in the right order.


In Dan 9 the messiah was going to be cut off (the crucifixion) at the end of 483 years (69 times 7) starting from when a decree went out to rebuild. One of the decrees is in Nehemiah 2 the 20th year of Artaxerxes of Persia which based on archeology was 445 BC. The author of Genesis (150 days, 5 months) Jubilees (150 days, 5 months) , and Revelation (times, time, half a time, 1260 days) are using 360 day a year calendars. So 445 BC minus 483 = -39 AD then minus another 1 year when going from BC to AD or vice versa 40 AD in Gregorian years. To convert to 360 day years then 483 times 5.24 days (the difference between Gregorian years of 365.24 and 360 day years)= 2530/ 360 = 7 year difference. Subtract 7 from 40 AD puts the crucifixion at 33 AD. Please explain if there is a problem with that math.

If the decree was 7th year of Artaxerxes 457 BC in Ezra then 457-483= -26, - another 1= 27 AD - 7 = 20 AD so that makes no sense unless someone has Jesus being born around 10 BC (the NT says something about Jesus 30th year)

2PhiloVoid said:

I understand what you're saying, and it's one reason I don't get into these more secondary discussions. Because if I do, I demand and expect professional level support, which is what I'm going to bring to the table.

But as it is, the Nature of Hell just isn't a topic I want to spend more time on in my life than what I've already spent on it. I don't think it matters either way since, either way, people should sense some healthy fear in coming before a Holy Lord.

Click to expand...

Agreed. But I’m one of those that migrate to the topic. We all have our topics of interest.

BCP1928 said:

What I was asking for initially was what the Christian motivation could be for judging the killing of those two men a righteous act.

Click to expand...

But that is the point. There is no Christian motivation here only personal. This is not a collective group’s opinion but individual personal opinion.

BCP1928 said:

You get all uppity when I bring Christanity into it, but even atheists who think interdicting those boats by just blowing them up is OK, draw the line at circling around to kill the survivors in the water.

Click to expand...

I don’t get uppity but I do think that you are confusing personal opinion of a few with those of all Christians. You do know that is a fallacy right?

BCP1928 said:

The only people who I have talked to about it who think such an action was righteousl have been Christians.

Click to expand...

Then you need to talk to quite a few more to make such a sweeping determination. Your “survey” is hardly conclusive.

FredVB said:

I see God is not limited. God created all the universe with it possible for any worlds with life, any other way it would not. God provides for that. God cares for life. God is everywhere, God is not limited in power, and is not limited in caring, God cares for all life. This includes each of us individually. As God cares so there is reason for us to do so.

Click to expand...

The level and degree of care of God for humans is, however, quite varied. For all of humanity God has provided this earth to sustain life. For most humans, life is far from pleasant, with many dying of disease, famine, and pestilence. God is also perfectly just and holy with requirements to be met in order to please Him. Sadly, all of us have fallen short of His glory and are rightly deserving of an eternity in the lake of fire which burns forever. In His matchless love and grace He sent Jesus Christ to earth to redeem His people. His people were, historically, the Jewish nation and no others among the hundreds of millions of people living on the earth. Following the redemption of Jesus Christ, His people are those who have faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ are not His sheep with the result being that the vast majority of humanity will be eternally lost.

Andrewn said:

Christ shared the Gospel with the spirits that were in prison before his death and resurrection. In “The Great Divorce,” C.S. Lewis suggests that Christ might still be reaching out to those spirits that continue to go to the prison or Hades. If this were the case, those who may end up being annihilated could be a very small proportion of people.

But you probably don’t agree with this idea, right? Do you believe the majority of people / spirits will be annihilated?


In the past, I had discussions with SDA's who believe in soul sleep and I rejected their ideas. Now that I distinguish the soul from the spirit, I may not object to soul sleep, so long the consciousness of the spirit is affirmed (which SDA's do not affirm). BTW, SDA's believe in Annihilism after awakening at the Last Judgment.

I have not changed my mind about the personality continuing to exist in or with the conscious spirit after death. I agree with you that the parable of Rich and Lazarus is based on reality. I am interested in learning your beliefs.

Click to expand...

He that endures to THE END shall be saved. Everlasting life is a gift from GOD received by the saints at the return of Jesus. This mortal must PUT ON immortality. The idea that humans are an immortal soul is the mistake that produced the heaven and hell idea. Death is not life somewhere else, death is the opposite of life. What you call soul sleep should be called spirit sleep. A soul is a living breathing creature. See Strongs Concordance article H5315 used in Genesis 2:7 for the word soul that is used in the creation of Adam. A human being is a soul, the souls is not a third part of us, it is us. The soul that sins shall die. At death the spirit of man returns to GOD in a totally unconscious state incapable of anything. In this sense everyones human spirit goes back to GOD who gave it. It is the breath of life, the human spirit that imparts life to the body, the body without the spirit is dead as James says. A murderer doesn’t have everlasting life abiding in him 1 John 3:15 The idea of hell gives everlasting life to sinners. Only the church will receive everlasting life in the first resurrection. The promise GOD gave to the church is everlasting life. 1 John 2:25 These words I have written are not my words or opinions, they are in the scriptures. How can anyone understand salvation when they don’t even know what they are themselves ? How would getting these things wrong effect the understanding of the gospel ?

The war on drugs is against the down on their luck fishermen and unemployed people given a couple hundred bucks to transport product, not the millionaire rulers of the cartel or the enablers.

2PhiloVoid said:

Personally, I don't invest in this sort of thread since I think the topic itself is underdetermined and can be seen from either viewpoint.

Click to expand...

I’m just following the scriptural thread weaved through scripture. The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction. But at the end of the day there are a few competing arguments that hold water. I’ve been involved in several arguments that go the predictable way and that is a shame because they are usually based on faulty linguistic context. I think that in all the years that I’ve been here there has only been two or three debaters that argued within the hermeneutical framework. I learn from those.

Hentenza said:

You’ll have to ask them. However, you need to examine how you are going about this. This issue is a highly political issue that transcends religion with one side very quick to accuse and get all indignant before all facts are in. I don’t come to a conclusion until I have the necessary facts but many here do.

The legality of it is the earthly measure of what is just. In Christianity there is more to just an earthly measure but also heavenly as well. We believe that only God knows what is in someone’s heart and can fully objectively judge the person. Personally I can make “my” mind of someone’s guilt by the evidence presented but I can never fully know the person’s heart or motivation.

Click to expand...

What I was asking for initially was what the Christian motivation could be for judging the killing of those two men a righteous act. You get all uppity when I bring Christanity into it, but even atheists who think interdicting those boats by just blowing them up is OK, draw the line at circling around to kill the survivors in the water. The only people who I have talked to about it who think such an action was righteous have been Christians.

PloverWing said:

The books (and movies) are not explicitly religious, but they do explore the question of power and control, and I think that's an important ethical area for Christians to think about.

As to the value of life, I'd say the books speak especially of the value of lives in poorer districts -- folks like farm workers and Appalachian coal miners. That's a point worth making. The books also speak uncomfortably of a population that's willing to go along with the hunger games -- why? Because the viewers are entertained? Because the stability of Panem's authoritarian government makes their lives more comfortable? Because they're too afraid to say anything? All interesting, and very human, motivations to explore.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but how do those things show how God values our lives?

Jerry N. said:

The reason that the 33 sectors of the map in the UN logo might be connected to Freemasons is the push for a One World Order.

Click to expand...

I doubt it.

pastorwaris said:

Brother, thank you for your thoughtful contribution!
Your observations about the decree of Artaxerxes, the 360-day prophetic calendar, and Josephus’ account of the cessation of sacrifices are valuable pieces of the discussion. You clearly have a good grasp of the historical data and how many scholars approach Daniel’s timeline. I appreciate the precision and care in your argument.

Allow me to respond point-by-point with respect, while also offering a few clarifications from the Hebrew text, chronology, and New Testament context.

1. About the 444 BC decree (Nehemiah 2)​

The 444 BC date is indeed widely held (Artaxerxes’ 20th year), but even conservative scholars acknowledge some chronological uncertainties in Persian regnal years.
However, Daniel 9:25 says:
מִן־מֹצָא דָבָר לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם
"From the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem."
Many scholars note that Ezra 7 (457 BC) is the only decree that explicitly authorizes restoration (לְהָשִׁיב) not just repairs. Nehemiah’s decree is more narrowly focused on the walls.
So while 444 BC is a legitimate position, 457 BC remains linguistically stronger.
Your point is well-taken, but the Hebrew nuances keep the discussion open.

2. About the 360-day prophetic calendar​

Yes, prophetic literature often uses a 360-day schema (e.g., Rev 11–12: “1260 days = 42 months = 3½ years”).
But applying a strict 360-day year to Daniel’s 70 weeks is interpretive, not required by the Hebrew text.
In Daniel 9, no unit of days is mentioned only שָׁבֻעִים (weeks/sets of seven).
The text leaves the “type” of year undefined.
So using a 360-day year can be helpful, but it is not mandated linguistically.

3. “The 70th week is not connected to the 69th”​

This is an excellent observation. Many scholars agree with you:
There is an intentional gap between the 69th and the 70th week.

Daniel 9:26 explicitly states:
וְאַחֲרֵי הַשָּׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם
“After the sixty-two weeks…” then events occur before v.27’s final week begins.
This does show a structural separation.
Where interpreters differ is how long the gap is.

You propose 33–63 AD.
Others argue the gap continues into the last days (cf. Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2; Rev 13).
Both views attempt to handle the same textual tension in different ways.

4. Eleazar ben Hananiah stopping the sacrifices (66 AD)​

You are absolutely right that Josephus records this:



This is a strong candidate for the “cessation of sacrifice” in Daniel 9:27.
However:

• The text of Daniel 9 describes a covenant being enforced (וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים)​

There is no record of Eleazar, Zealots, or Romans strengthening a covenant with many.

• Jesus places the “abomination of desolation” (Dan 9:27) in the future relative to 30 AD (Matt 24:15)​

Meaning something beyond His earthly ministry.

So 66–70 AD is historically important,
but not a complete fulfillment of Daniel 9:27.

5. “Inspired Scripture stopped here.”​

Brother, respectfully this is a theological conclusion, not a textual one.
Jesus and the apostles treat the destruction of Jerusalem as a pattern, but not the final culmination:

• Paul (2 Thess 2) speaks of a future man of lawlessness seated in the temple of God.
• John (Revelation) describes further abominations, prophetic timelines, and covenant persecutions.
• Jesus (Matt 24:21–29) links a future tribulation to Daniel’s prophecy.

So the New Testament does not treat 70 AD as the end of prophetic history.

Blessings

Click to expand...

Assuming the author of Daniel is using 360 day years. Then over the course of 483 years it makes 5.24 days a year times 483=2530 days difference / 360=7 year difference when compared to Gregorian 365.24 day a year. I was subtracting that from 483 but maybe it should be added? You think it does not need to be calculated?

Servus said:

For each one that went to court, 100 got shot out in the field without going to court.

Click to expand...

Because they were enemy combatants in a declared war. Last I checked, Congress has not declared war on the drug cartels.

I'm so glad you've found a church home. Blessings! And welcome to CF!

I don’t know…

BCP1928 said:

Then it is only some Christians who think killing those two men in the water after their boat was sunk was a righteous act. What do you think the reasoning is of those Christians who approve of it?

Click to expand...

I never had to “back down” because I didn’t have a place to back down from. You’ll have to ask those Christians that you are accusing. However, you need to examine how you are going about this. This issue is a highly political issue that transcends religion with one side very quick to accuse and get all indignant before all facts are in. I don’t come to a conclusion until I have the necessary facts but many here do.

BCP1928 said:

You, at least, seem to be willing to back down and call it immoral if it is shown first to be illegal.

Click to expand...

The legality of it is the earthly measure of what is just. In Christianity there is more to just an earthly measure but also heavenly as well. We believe that only God knows what is in someone’s heart and can fully objectively judge the person. Personally I can make “my” mind of someone’s guilt by the evidence presented but I can never fully know the person’s heart or motivation.