He wouldn't give up the floor.

ozso said:

Why has he become an itinerant worker, living in a beat up old Winnebago? Perhaps you should be heartbroken over him making poor lifestyle choices and pray that he goes for better stability.

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When he was about 18, he set a barn in fire--accidentally--and ran. A felony that can't get expunged without paying damages. Despite a college degree and great work ethic, he can't get more than minimal jobs. Over 30 years crime free. Tragic.

1Tonne said:

Both you and I know that you have a naturalist slant when it comes to science. You just do not want to admit it. Because if you do, then you are admitting that you are putting your slant on the results.

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You're confusing two distinct things with statements like this. Science, by its very nature, is "naturalist"...but that doesn't mean what you seem to think it means, as "naturalism" in regards to science is about the epistemic approach and is not, in any way, opposed to theistic belief directly. It is simply a commitment to limiting the scope of inquiry to models that don't introduce questions that cannot be answered via observation and hypothesis testing. So anyone committed to science is going to be committed to naturalism in that sense, but it has nothing to do with whether or not God exists or ontological naturalism. It's not about "putting (a) slant on the results" it's about keeping the scope of inquiry to questions amenable to the kinds of tools that science has available to it.

This is an issue about which Christians disagree, and it's an issue with a lot of nuance and moral shades of gray. Could you agree to disagree about it?

partinobodycular said:

It must be my apathetic nature, because those things don't bother me at all. It's just people doing people stuff. It's the same reaction that I get when I think about you going to the beach, or opening a decent bottle of something. It's just another day of Bradskii doing Bradskii stuff. Meanwhile humanity is on this amazing adventure, and at least for a little while I get to ride along. Iran is fighting Israel, Russia is fighting Ukraine, the conservatives are angry with the liberals, and Trump is doing who knows what crazy stuff... how bloody cool is that?

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It's like the old Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times. I guess it's lucky that we can turn off at times and look from the outside in like an interested observer.

I was channel surfing just before going to bed on 9/11 (it happened in the late evening down here). And caught the first report, then watched it all unfold. It was obviously horrifying to watch, and I knew that thousands of people were dying. But there was a small part of me thinking 'This is so cool - I'm watching a major event in modern history in real time'.

The Barbarian said:

For example, you made a claim about information in biological systems. I showed you a very simple way that it works. You ignored it, apparently, as "technical layers." If you can't even grasp how information works, how can you hope to discuss it?

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I did make a claim about irreducible complexity, and I asked for a clear, step-by-step explanation for how such systems could arise gradually, with each stage being both functional and advantageous.
The issue remains unresolved. I’ve asked for step-by-step, functional pathways to explain irreducible complexity, where each stage works and provides an advantage. What I’ve received instead are papers that assume such pathways exist but never demonstrate them. They describe systems after the fact or suggest hypothetical mechanisms (like co-option or duplication) without showing how each intermediate part actually functions on its own.
Until someone can show a real example, not just theory of a complex system like the flagellum or blood clotting, evolving step by step with working intermediates, irreducible complexity stands as a valid challenge.
If you can’t do this, then you have fail terribly with your evidence. So please do not say "I have shown you but you have ignored it" as I have read your papers and not ignored them. It is you who is not answering my question. I asked for a clear, step-by-step explanation for how such systems could arise gradually, with each stage being both functional and advantageous.

The Barbarian said:

If you think so, it's rather hard to explain how honest and knowledgeable creationists call it solid evidence for evolution.

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Both you and I know that you have a naturalist slant when it comes to science. You just do not want to admit it. Because if you do, then you are admitting that you are putting your slant on the results.

The Barbarian said:

Darwin himself showed that evolution was not limitless. Again, you'd be more effective arguing against biology if you understood it.

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Then we’re in agreement that evolution has limits. So, the real question is: where are those limits? And can step-by-step mutations, with each stage being functional and selected for, truly account for the origin of entirely new, interdependent biological systems like the circulatory system or flagellum?
That’s what I’ve been asking all along. Pointing to observed adaptation is not the same as explaining large-scale innovation. If you admit evolution isn’t limitless, then why assume it explains everything?

The Barbarian said:

No, that's wrong, too. For example, tetrapod legs show a step-by-step sequence that YEC Dr. Kurt Wise admits is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

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Quoting a single YEC scientist who finds one fossil series compelling doesn’t prove the case. The so-called tetrapod “sequence” still consists of fully formed organisms with distinct body structures, not actual transitional forms showing functional, incremental changes in limb development. A few fossils that seem to fit a narrative aren’t the same as a demonstrated mechanism.
Where is the actual step-by-step genetic pathway showing how random mutations built entirely new structures like limbs, with every stage being functional and selected for? That’s the issue. Storytelling with fossils isn’t the same as demonstrating how blind processes produce complex, interdependent systems. That’s what’s still missing.

To be honest, I’m getting bored of this conversation. I’ve asked for clear, direct evidence, and instead keep getting long papers, deflections, and assumptions treated as facts. If this is the best evolution has to offer, it’s no wonder so many people remain unconvinced.

BPPLEE said:

Yes and if you read in Genesis 6 it says Noah was perfect in his generations. Meaning his bloodline had not been corrupted by this abomination.

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I wonder if this corrupted blood line still exists today ?

I need to get the guts to wear mine more often.

Whoever it is, I hope it's not me. I can't handle that kind of responsibility.

Do you want us to nominate candidates, or do you have something in mind?

Apple Sky said:

I maybe wrong but I reckon this is why God said, ' to kill all the men, women, children & all the livestock' & may also be the reason he destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah.

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Yes and if you read in Genesis 6 it says Noah was perfect in his generations. Meaning his bloodline had not been corrupted by this abomination. It was Satan's plan to corrupt the bloodline of man so that there could be no savior
Gen 6:9 NKJV
9 ¶ This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

trophy33 said:

I rather think that the material/physical universe is, in its fundamental elements, non-physical. Science can call it strings or code or something, Leibniz would call it monads.

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I'm not sure there's enough of a clear definition to make an evaluation one way or the other. Sciene has long since abandoned the historic understanding of "matter" to the point where calling it physical or material is always going to be a moving target. I agree that "physical" is a poor category and that what is at "bottom" is likely far less...concrete.

trophy33 said:

Something being physical is just our experience - like touching something. But the experience as such created by our brain is also non-physical.

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If I understand you correctly, i agree. Physical, as a word, is only properly understood as related to our sense experience. Speculation about ontology doesn't really render us with concepts that are...conceivable. We cannot truly fathom what a quark or a muon are "like" outside of existing within mathematical models. We can't even come up with clear conceptual models, at a certain point the complexity involved outstrips our ability to understand.

rjs330 said:

To the left it wouldn't matter how he did it. They would find something to criticize him for including that he disnt cure dementia at the same time.

You know.... cause hes Hitler.

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Still missing the point there friend. You're making it sound more like the how doesn't matter to you and trying to turn it around. Don't you agree that it does matter how it's done? You do understand what the joke in the last sentence was?

chevyontheriver said:

A prophet should be very careful to only say 'Thus says the LORD' when the LORD gives the prophet the particular words. Too many take it on themselves to speak for the LORD. They might pick out words from the Bible but if it isn't what the Lord has given them they aren't speaking for God. Makes them false prophets even if they quote Scripture. Satan can quote Scripture as well.

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Agreed. In my experience, calls to prophethood aren't lifelong assignments and involve confronting specific audiences not blanket contankerousness towards other members of the faith who, in all sincerity and honest piety, happen to adhere to a different set of doctrinal and liturgical traditions. And in those limited experiences, God does the speaking.

And I see some Greek words , but I do not have the time , as the small black squares block my vision as I am

having a hard time following all those small black squares and even some complaint about mine

and where did you find it ??

And I Just like mine better as I have been using it for years !!

dan p

Guojing said:

You cannot use Rahab as an example for us today.

Under Israel's covenant, one can become part of Israel by willing to undergo physical circumcision (for males) and follow the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48)

Many gentiles did that in the OT, and thus they are no longer gentiles but Jews (Esther 8:17)

Thank God that we males don't have to follow that today, thanks to gospel of grace revealed to our apostle Paul (Romans 11:11).

We do not need to join Israel to be saved, unlike Rahab.

But of course, the side effect of that is that we no longer could have the signs of Israel today, including the gift of healing. We walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7)

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Guojing said:

That is my conclusion, the supporting premises are listed after that.

You don't understand how logical arguments work?

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Your second point in the list refers to males... In this point you are using an example that doesn't apply to Rahab.

The third point you concede to the opposing argument.

The fourth point you threw the rules you are claiming out the window and jumped on the grace train.

The fifth point you are stating that God's example doesn't matter and included no Scripture again.

The sixth point your Scripture is totally irrelevant to the discussion as it is referring to believing, not adoption or conversion into God's family.

Don't attempt to indirectly insult me with implications through questions please. lol It looks bad on you.

Good day.

timf said:

Paul was the first one saved by the gospel of grace.

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timf said:

Paul was the first one saved by the gospel of grace.

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And jusr wondering and since brought not only Dispensentistism and Ultra-Dispensatinalist , will you say where you stand

as to your position , and are you a Disbe or and Ulra ?

dan p

chevyontheriver said:

Oh, I know. No problem. It's others that are pulling out all the stops.

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I'm aware, and it's one of the major issues with protestantism and the doctrine of sola scriptura in general. Too many prophets, not enough laborers.

BPPLEE said:

It happened again after the flood, so God chained those fallen angels in Hades
Jude 6

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I maybe wrong but I reckon this is why God said, ' to kill all the men, women, children & all the livestock' & may also be the reason he destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah.

chevyontheriver said:

Notice that the attacks are asymmetric. One side doing the bulk of the attacking. The anti-Catholics sure are not shy in their attacks on Catholics and the Catholic Church. And they don't care about collateral damage to the Orthodox or other traditional Christians. The OP is right on target. And the OP has brought out exactly what it spoke against.

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Just so we're clear, that wasn't intended as an attack on you or what you have said. It was meant in solidarity with you, as it is his rhetoric that made me think of that verse.

Pommer said:

So far from the days when JEC was forced to sell put his peanut farm into a blind trust.

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Funnies from history:



-- A2SG, Doonesbury didn't always hit, but when it did, it hit hard....

Guojing said:

I used so many different scripture passages there.

If you have alternative interpretations of them, you could share them

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No... you claimed outright without Scripture...

"You cannot use Rahab as an example for us today."

You made that up. lol

2 Esdras 7:45-56 On the Day of judgement, there can be no mercy for those who have lost their case and no reversal for those who have won. Ezra replied: But Lord, how much better it would be if Adam had been restrained from sinning. O Adam; what have you done? What good is the hope of eternity, in the wretched and futile state to which we have become?
You say that God will save those who lead pure lives, but what of the many who fail to attain that standard and give no thought to what is in store after death.

2 Esdras 7:57-61 This is the thought for every person to keep in mind during the battle of life: Moses, in his time said to the people: “Choose life, that you may live”. But they believed neither him, or the prophets sent after him.
There will be no sorrow over their damnation, but there will be joy for the salvation of those who have believed and obeyed God’s commands.

2 Esdras 7:62-70 I know that God is merciful and compassionate. Without His forgiveness, there could be no hope for this worlds inhabitants. He is our Judge and unless He blots out our countless offences, there would be very few who could be spared. The angel replied: God has made this world for many, the next world for but a few. It is the same with the earth, plenty of clay, not much gold – many have been created, but only a few will be saved. Romans 9:22-23

2 Esdras 8:19-39 This is the prayer offered by Ezra, before being taken up to heaven: O Lord, You inhabit eternity, everything belongs to You.....We and our fathers have lived evil lives, yet it is on account of us sinners that You are called merciful. What is man, that You should be angry with him? The truth is, no one who was ever born is entirely innocent of sin. God will have joy in the salvation of those who trust Him

2 Esdras 8:59-62 Yours, then will be the joys I have predicted.
It is not that the Most High has wanted any person to be destroyed, but those He created, brought dishonour onto their Creators Name and show ingratitude to the One who put life within their reach. That is why My judgement is prepared and ready.. I have not made this known to all, only to you and a few like you.

2 Esdras 9:1-6 My Lord, tell me when the last days will be.
Watch carefully, you will see that some of the signs predicted have already passed, then you will understand that the time is near for God to begin to judge the world that He has created. When the world becomes the scene of earthquakes, insurrections, plots among the nations, unstable governments and panic among rulers, then the end of the age as prophesied, draws near. The times that God has determined; the beginning is marked by portents and miracles, the end by manifestations of power.

2 Esdras 9:7-8 All who come safely through and escape destruction, thanks to their good deeds and faith they have shown, will survive the dangers I have foretold and witness the salvation I shall bring to My Land, the territory I have set apart from all eternity as My own. The just will be saved, the world is theirs and for their sake it exists. Romans 2:9-11
Reference: REB Apocrypha. Verses abridged.

Apple Sky said:

But he was a giant who's clan were the Rephaim.

Deuteronomy 3:10 - 10 all the cities of the plateau, all of Gilead, and all of Bashan as far as the cities of Salecah and Edrei in the kingdom of Og. 11(For only Og king of Bashan had remained of the remnant of the Rephaim. His bed of iron, nine cubits long and four cubits wide, is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)

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The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (AND ALSO AFTER THIS) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men.
Gen 6:4 NET
It happened again after the flood, so God chained those fallen angels in Hades
Jude 6
You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day.

Guojing said:

So at least we agree that Jesus is not doing that same mission today, as he did during his first coming.

Alright then.

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I had said: "I'm saying it was never Jesus' mission to heal everyone, and it's not today."

They're not remotely the same statements.