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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
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Furious Democrats Call for Schumer to Be Replaced After Shutdown Cave
- American Politics
- 4 Replies
A big fat “L” for the democrats. 
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Young earth vs Old earth?
- By Derf
- Theistic Evolution
- 106 Replies
Am I misunderstanding what you think Gen 1:1 is calling "earth"? Are you saying it is the same thing that later became the dry ground? Most people think that it refers to the whole planet we call "Earth" in Vs 1.
I think that's not clear from the scripture, though it is a possible interpretation. Would you say the same thing about "Heaven"? IOW, did "Heaven" exist within the water? If not, then what is Vs 1 talking about when it says "Heaven"?
Is light an object? If not light, then are you asking about other spheres, such as the sun, moon, stars or something like them that came before? All I get from the scripture at that point is that light existed. If I compare that with modern physics, specifically the big bang theory (BBT), there was a period of time called the photon epoch which might correspond to what God did to create light, before there were other (large) objects, although there was something that preceded the light called "waters" and "the deep". In BBT, there is something that precedes the light also. I'm looking at Big Bang Timeline- The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe while writing. It talks about a "photon epoch"
Which is a supposition. Maybe true, maybe not. It requires your view to be true, but other views can still be valid without tossing the verse aside. Such as that the light was made to appear without any mist or atmospheric blockage.No. The reason God said let there be light, was because the earth was shrouded in darkness.
Genesis 1:2-5
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep
There was no light for God to separate.
Only after light reached the earth, did God call the light "day", and the darkness "night".
Also true.
Light from the sun penetrated the dissipating ash and debris that is hanging above earth's atmosphere.
The light is called Day, and the darkness is called Night... Obviously we have night and day on earth.
We don't ignore context, is true, but neither do we ignore chronology.
I don't think it is wrong to apply the whole chapter's context in our understanding of the first few verses.
That might not be the first event in the chronology. It might instead be an introduction to the chronology, just as Gen 2:1 is not another creation of heaven and earth, and cannot be considered part of the chronology, but just a summation (a short repeat) of the previous contents.
Yes
Yes
How long did "the beginning" last" And when were "earth" and "heaven" created? I think I'm still within the window of the 6 days.
Not if the text said that they began to exist only after light.
Or, as stated before, that it was an introductory statement about the narrative that followed.
Surely "the heavens" didn't mean "and everything the heavens will contain later on" when it was first defined. Are you saying the "the heavens" existed before "the heavens" were created??
Yes, at least sometimes. But when the narrative says the heavens were created by separating water above from water below, i don't understand how they existed prior to that.
Can you repeat that in different words?
Space is where God placed the stars, planets, galaxies, etc. David was looking at stars in the heavens
[Isa 57:16 NKJV] For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls [which] I have made. --I don't see how this relates to our discussion.
[Jer 32:19 NKJV] '[You are] great in counsel and mighty in work, for Your eyes [are] open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings. --nor this.
I'll repeat the verses again:
[Gen 1:1 KJV] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[Gen 2:1 KJV] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
The last one is not part of the narrative telling how and in what order God created, yet it is part of the section of scripture containing that narrative. That sentence could be termed a summation of what came before.
The first verse is similar--it isn't part of how and when God created, but is a statement of what the text that follows contains...an introduction, we would call it if writing an english paper. Or perhaps a title. Maybe you didn't understand what I was getting at with the story about making a lamp. I started with a statement about what I was about to describe the creation of (a lamp). The initial statement was not part of the story about how I was making a lamp, it was an introduction to the story about how I was making a lamp.
The assumption that the earth exists before the narrative says the earth exists makes the definition of "earth" confusing, because it is not what the verses define it. The verses of the text define "earth" as "dry land", not a planet where you can only see water. Therefore, if water is all you can see in Vs 2, it must not be the same thing as "earth" as defined in Gen 1:10. If Heaven is vs 1 is not something that came to exist only after the waters were separated from the waters, then there must be 2 things, in your view, that "Heaven" refers to. One in vs 1 and another in vs 8 and following. Whereas, if the introduction is telling us what the narrative is about, rather than being part of the narrative, we soon see the objects/foci of the narrative come into being in Gen 1:6-10.
I think they are the same thing--Space, extending down to the surface of the earth (dirt). The "face of the expanse" (still part of the expanse) is the sky where birds fly. "The Heavens" is the name God gave the expanse (firmament).
It does. But remember that the statement begins the narrative in which the heavens and the earth are created. It explains what the words mean as the things the words refer to come into being. If dry land existed prior to dry land existing, then the story of creation is confusing, don't you think? Remember that the narrative defines the words it uses for these things. If you then define them a different way, you need to explain where your definitions come from, and why they don't match the definitions in the narrative.
Isn't it? Or do scientists actually know what is outside the universe??
None of them. Can you tell me where the waters above the expanse reside?Can yo please point out where, or which layer the sun, moon, and stars reside in this diagram?
No. But when God made the firmament (expanse) there were a couple parts to it in the narrative. There is the firmament where stars and galaxies are, and there is the "face of the firmament", which is where birds fly.
[Gen 1:20 NKJV] Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."
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