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Oompa Loompa · 2025-11-13T21:13:29-0600

Belk said:
So are you going to address the points I raised at some point, or continue down the rabbit hole of beating up your own mischaracterization of others positions?

Belk said:
A half trillion payout? We will see how many people are fooled by being paid off with their own money.

If this is the point you are referring to, I already have addressed it.

Douggg · 2025-11-13T21:07:05-0600

tranquil said:
The graph indicates that the Daniel 9:27 covenant is made 30 days after the abomination in Jerusalem -

30 days after the start of the 1290 days. The covenant is 'cutting the great tribulation short'.

The 1260 days of the 2 witnesses are the exact 1st half of the covenant. It is occurring after the abomination in Jerusalem but before the abomination in Mystery Babylon ('Shinar' in Zech 5).

The end of the 1290 days is the mid-point of the 7 year covenant (1260 days into it). The end of the 1290 days is the 7th Trumpet.

Day 1335 is the 45th day into the '2nd half' of the 7 year covenant. The 2nd half (1260 days) is cut short to 45 days.

Your response and chart is so confusing.

Here, please type what day of the 2520 day seven years does the 1335 days period end on ?

The Barbarian · 2025-11-13T20:54:42-0600

View attachment 373106
Over two-thirds of Americans think same-sex marriages should be legal. Americans don't like the government telling them what to do.

calicocat said:
Can you crowdfund morality?

That's what your "back to the closet" is about. But most Americans recognize that when government tries to enforce morals, it always results in evil.

calicocat said:
"You shall not follow a crowd to do evil"

Which is why most Americans won't follow that crowd. It's an old argument, but Americans have always rejected it:

Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.
James Madison Against Religious Assessments

calicocat said:
Americans proved they love being told what to do under covid.

Almost everyone I talked to, grumped about infection control efforts, but most recognized that it saved lives. I happen to have a degree in microbiology, and I did graduate work in immunology. I managed an immunology clinic in the AF. I doubt if you have any real idea of the way that the controls worked, or why they were implemented.

Fervent · 2025-11-13T20:52:31-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Y'know, with the way the world is, one would think Christians would see the need to unite together for mutual support and encouragement rather than wrangle over certain points of the faith ad infinitum. But I guess I hope for too much.

What gets me is those who take as a point of pride their increasing fracturousness, taking it as if it were a sign that they truly are the sole loyalists to Christ.

timothyu · 2025-11-13T20:49:35-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Y'know, with the way the world is, one would think Christians would see the need to unite together for mutual support and encouragement

They have no personal concept of oppression, many having been taught we are to succeed at the expense of others, free enterprise and all that. Their view of Christianity conforms to the world rather than opposing it. Not entirely their fault, as the religion seeks to conform in order to appear more appealing to especially those who have no desire to be part of a counter-culture.

seeking.IAM · 2025-11-13T20:47:05-0600

The Liturgist said:
Many Episcopalians and members of the Anglican Communion seem deeply uncomfortable with this sort of departure from core doctrinal definitions.

Thank you for your kind words. Just for the record because The Episcopal Church is so frequently maligned, my editorial comments in post #3 were not observations made about The Episcopal Church. Rather they come from my work with an unnamed progressive denomination of which I was not an adherent nor a member.

Landon Caeli · 2025-11-13T20:41:24-0600

Gene2memE said:
Let's do some simple maths:

US tariffs collected to end of Sep-2025: $174 billion
US tariffs collected to end of Sep-2024: $58 billion

US tariffs per month (3-month average): $29 billion

Expected tariffs for 2025: $270-275 billion
Expected tariffs for 2026: $290-310 billion

US population (Jul-2025): 342 million

342 million x $2,000 = $648 billion.

Congratulations, you've now collected negative $350 billion in tariffs.

It's no wonder the rest of the world alternates between pointing and laughing and being noisily sick when considering the current US administration.

Well, if the 342 million includes children under 18 (which it does) then I don't think that's a realistic figure to use.

...I mean does anyone here think 1st graders deserve two thousand dollar checks?

Vambram · 2025-11-13T20:39:06-0600

eclipsenow said:
It reminds me of the scene in Harry Potter where McGonagall is going up against Umbridge, and Umbridge accuses McGonagall of disloyalty for daring to question her methods.

International agencies have already downgraded America from a full democracy to a flawed democracy. There are only four categories with the first being full democracy and the last being total dictatorship.

Trump's narcissism leads him to lie and lie again about anyone who has ever stood up to him. That people swallow his lies astonishes me

That anyone believes and swallows the lies of progressive left wing liberal activists and politicians astonishes me.

timewerx · 2025-11-13T20:34:26-0600

Neogaia777 said:
The "personality" of the AI, if you will, evolves or grows or changes over your interacting with it, and no one seems to be able to know/predict what it will become, or how or why, etc, and if that's not concerning to you, especially as AI gains more capabilities, and we put it in charge of a lot more things, and we move even further and further away from ever being able to know that fully, then I don't know what will, etc. It's one of the main chief primary problems involved with the future of AI safety, and AI safety currently, etc.

God Bless.

There's really nothing to it. Just training data.

The only people who has to worry are those wasting their resources on shallow pleasures.

zoidar · 2025-11-13T20:29:59-0600

Dikaioumenoi said:
Well that in itself is problematic. Any statement you pull from our discussion does not contain the full context of it.

I shouldn't have to point out that if you're relying on AI to determine what is accurate, you have no business participating critically in this discussion (by that, I mean, I'm being overly gracious in entertaining your objections, not that you can't, of course, say whatever you please). I'm happy to answer questions, explain my reasoning, or engage with your own objections, but outsourcing your thinking to a fallible AI is intellectually lazy at best and disqualifying at worst. AI is not trustworthy. It can help retrieve information (and even then, it's not always reliable and can be manipulated -- whether intentionally or not -- to support whatever you want, depending on how you word your prompt), but it cannot replace genuine comprehension or careful exegesis.

Yes, which I clarified and expanded on in post #95. You've not interacted with any of the reasoning laid out there. You're simply being argumentative at this point.

I think it's unfair to say I was lazy using AI. I spend many hours with AI, reading and reflecting before I gave you my reply.

calicocat · 2025-11-13T20:29:26-0600

The Barbarian said:
Precedent says a private business is not required to approve of anyone's lifestyle.

Not likely...

View attachment 373106
Over two-thirds of Americans think same-sex marriages should be legal. Americans don't like the government telling them what to do.

Can you crowdfund morality? Is that Biblical? "You shall not follow a crowd to do evil" (Exodus 23:2) has been used a rabbinical argument against communists.

"Vox populi, vox Dei" means "Give us Barabbas (or Saul.)"

Americans proved they love being told what to do under covid.

Wolseley · 2025-11-13T20:25:38-0600

chevyontheriver said:
"Gather Us In" is now being translated into Latin. I wonder if the Trads will suddenly begin to sing it now instead of thinking of hurling?

"Gather Us In" the choir is moaning
"Gather Us In" is our entrance song;
"Gather Us In": it sounds more like groaning
With chords that are minor and notes that are long.

"Gather Us In" we sing every Sunday
"Gather Us In" we sing every Mass;
Give us a break and play something different
"Gather Us In" gets old mighty fast!

GloryToHisName · 2025-11-13T20:25:17-0600

I’ve been working on a literal translation and grammatical analysis of Daniel 9:24–27, and I believe the prophecy is intentionally structured with two 70-week cycles:

1. First 70 weeks — Ancient fulfillment (457 BC decree → Messiah → 70 AD destruction)

2. Second 70 weeks — Modern fulfillment (1542 Suleiman’s wall rebuilding → 1967 Jerusalem return → final 7-year week)

I’m particularly focused on Daniel 9:25, where the Hebrew reads:

> שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם (shishim u-shenayim) — literally “sixty and two”

Traditional translations render this simply as “sixty-two weeks,” but I interpret it as “second sixty”, marking the first 60 weeks of the second 70-week cycle. My reasoning:

Inversion/wordplay: Verse 25 inverts the normal order compared to verse 26, highlighting a purposeful sequence rather than a simple count.

Cardinal-as-ordinal usage: Hebrew routinely uses cardinal numbers to indicate sequence. Examples include:

Exodus 40:2 — “in the second month” uses the cardinal word for two to indicate sequence.

Daniel 7:25 — “years” (cardinal) used sequentially for prophetic timing.

Contextual necessity: This block must be distinguished from the first 70-week cycle to align with historical events (Suleiman 1542 → Jerusalem 1967).

---

My Interlinear Translation (simplified)

HebrewEnglish

עַל־ נֶחְתַּךְ שִׁבְעִים שָׁבֻעִיםThere are divided out 70 weeks
לְכַלֵּא חַטָּאתfor the restraining of lawlessness
וּלְחָתֵםwhich is marked for the coming punishment
חָזוֹן וּלְחָתֵם עֹלָמִים צֶדֶקfor the sealing of the vision and the age of righteousness
נָגִיד וּמָשִׁיחַ לִירוּשָׁלִם שָׁבוּעִים שִׁבְעָהfor a ruler and an anointed one for Jerusalem; it shall take seven weeks to build
וְתָשׁוּב בַּשְּׁנַיִם שִׁשִּׁיםand it shall be returned at the second sixty

(Remaining verses continue with the first 70 and second 70-week timeline, including v.26–27.)

---

Dual 70-Week Timeline

CycleWeekEvents / Fulfillment

First 70 7 weeks (49 yrs)457 BC decree → completion of Jerusalem wall (Nehemiah)
First 70 62 weeks408 BC → Messiah arrival (~26–33 AD)
First 70 1 weekMessiah ministry, covenant people cut off → Temple destroyed 70 AD
Second 70 60 weeks1542 Suleiman rebuilds Jerusalem walls → 1967 Israel returns Jerusalem
Second 70 1 week + ½~2025–2032 final tribulation / Day of the Lord
Second 70 remaining ½ weekAbomination removed, age of righteousness begins

---

Argument for “Second Sixty”

1. Hebrew שְׁנַיִם (“two”) functions as ordinal in context — sequence rather than pure quantity.

2. Chiastic structure (v.25 inverted vs. v.26 normal) highlights the dual-cycle reading.

3. Historical alignment supports a second prophetic block distinct from the first.

4. Restraining of lawlessness (v.24) corresponds with the final week revelation in 2 Thessalonians.

---

Question for Scholars / Linguists

Given the Hebrew construction, the chiastic inversion, and historical alignment:

1. Is translating שְׁנַיִם as “second sixty” contextually and grammatically defensible?

2. Are there other examples in Scripture where cardinal numbers function as ordinals in prophecy?

3. Does this dual-70-week chiastic reading hold up under textual and grammatical scrutiny, or are there constraints I may be overlooking?

I’ve tried to base this entirely on Hebrew grammar, syntax, and historical alignment rather than prior interpretive traditions. I’d appreciate insights from those familiar with biblical Hebrew, Danielic prophecy, or prophetic numerology.

---

Landon Caeli · 2025-11-13T20:23:26-0600

I agree with @calicocat. Islam is an abomination.

calicocat · 2025-11-13T20:16:47-0600

JosephZ said:
Child marriage was the norm.

It was not the norm. Medieval history was an interest of mine for years (which contributed to my strong personal feelings about the religion of Mrs. al-Zutt.)* Poor Margaret Beaufort was an aberration commented upon unfavorably at the time and an activist against early marriages later, Tudor hobbyists are STILL arguing over whether Catherine of Aragon's teenage nuptials were beyond paper, and waiting after the marriage was an expected norm apparently pushed off too far for the girl's liking in the "come out ye cuckold" flag story.

The average marital age in western culture was twentyish Login to view embedded media and the absolute lowest marriage age by church standards was 12 for girls and 14 for boys.

It's beyond dispute that Islam was founded by a pedophile.
They consider Muhammad to be "the seal of the prophets" and "the perfect man."
He married a six-year-old and went the full way when she was nine (hence so many Muslim countries toying with that as the legal marriage age and men protesting when it's raised: ‘Babies Are Having Babies’: Somalia Under Fire for Overturning Law Banning Child Marriage - Parents Africa )

Judaism can be de-pedoed by a Disputation of the Talmud** (Francis Burton found non-talmudic Karaites are never accused of the weird stuff.)
Christianity doesn't really need it.
You can't de-pedo Islam.

And the medievals were aware enough of this difference to record stories like the boy martyr St. Pelagius of Spain and Byzantine Greeks mercy-killing their captive children (Vlad the Impaler*** and his brother had no such mercy.) The Turks openly kept children as slaves for centuries in what was once the capital of Rome. It's difficult to read history and not be deeply concerned about Europe.

Even apart from the obvious religious issue, a culture that tortures children isn't compatible with Western ideals. (A religion that fits the Biblical qualification of Antichrist, Arian heresy + beheading, isn't something Christians should be too hot on anyway.)

I'm not certain why this should be forced on the West. I don't even want it forced on Muslims.

* split-moon be upon him
** clone Louis #9
*** if you've ever wondered why he was so mean (or obsessed with sticking things up Muslims...)

MarkSB · 2025-11-13T20:16:34-0600

Aldebaran said:
He and his party succeeded in getting the government open again, which was a defeat to Schumer and his friends. So it sounds like he's a better leader than Schumer.

Party politics is what's wrong with the whole situation. But you go ahead and just keep drinking that Kool Aid.

concretecamper · 2025-11-13T20:15:54-0600

I refuse to sing "Amazing Grace" because it contains heretical ideas.

Fervent · 2025-11-13T20:11:20-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Those are excellent points for us to think about in this discussion, and it reminds me all the more as to why I attempt to maintain solidarity and to avoid unnecessary debate with all other Traditionally Trinitarian Christians as much as I can.

As I am sure you would agree, a little hermeneutics goes a long way. Too often we jump into trading verses with little actual discussion and exchange, trying to prove each other wrong even if it is damaging to our fellowship. I say this as a participant and an observor.

MarkSB · 2025-11-13T20:07:37-0600

Larniavc said:
Like when they stopped taking MMR? Like when vaccines were made without thimerosal? Do you have any other non-evidenced harm causing anti-science hypothesis’ you would like to promote?

Breatherianism for example?

It... was a joke.

But, noted. Poe's law certainly seems to apply to ardent MAGA supporters.

HARK! · 2025-11-13T20:07:00-0600

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 24:5
For, finding this man a pestilence and |stirrer of insurrections among all the Jews who are on the |inhabited earth, besides a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,

(CLV) Ac 28:22
Now we count it worthwhile to hear from you what your disposition is. For, indeed, concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is being contradicted."

(CLV) Ac 28:23
Now setting a day for him, more came to him in the lodging, to whom he expounded, certifying to the kingdom of God, besides persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and the prophets, from morning till dusk.

I won't continue in the folly of debunking what I have already debunked.

MarkSB · 2025-11-13T20:06:52-0600

Vambram said:
President Donald Trump is a far better leader than anyone in the Democratic Party.

Well according to Don, the democratic party is the scum of the earth. I guess that makes Donald just a little bit better than scum then.

Gene2memE · 2025-11-13T19:56:28-0600

Landon Caeli said:
In a sign that things are definitely going well for his second term, Donald Trump is promising to send cash to every American. Tucked away in a series of posts on Truth Social that railed against recent setbacks for his tariff scheme, Trump promised a tariff dividend for every American worth several thousand dollars.

“People that are against Tariffs are FOOLS! We are now the Richest, Most Respected Country In the World, With Almost No Inflation, and A Record Stock Market Price. 401k’s are Highest EVER. We are taking in Trillions of Dollars

Trump promises $2000 tariff dividend to all Americans

The president is trying to save his tariff scheme with the promise of cold, hard cash

www.yahoo.com

Let's do some simple maths:

US tariffs collected to end of Sep-2025: $174 billion
US tariffs collected to end of Sep-2024: $58 billion

US tariffs per month (3-month average): $29 billion

Expected tariffs for 2025: $270-275 billion
Expected tariffs for 2026: $290-310 billion

US population (Jul-2025): 342 million

342 million x $2,000 = $648 billion.

Congratulations, you've now collected negative $350 billion in tariffs.

It's no wonder the rest of the world alternates between pointing and laughing and being noisily sick when considering the current US administration.

keras · 2025-11-13T19:50:16-0600

Guojing said:
That is how I know the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 is not us

Not right.
The Israel of God in the New Testament:
God’s work with and the development of His people, all faithful Israelites in the Old Testament is continued in the New Testament. Those who presumed that ancestry gave them privileges were chastened. John the Baptist’s strong language indicates how seriously God viewed their pride and arrogance.
John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Luke 3:7-9

Jesus gives a similar warning to those who were trying to trap him: Abraham is our father, they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did”. John 8:39 Jesus goes even further in Matthew 8 when he praises the faith of a Gentile Roman Centurion: I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:10

Jesus then goes on to make a prediction: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But those who were born to the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:11-12
Here Jesus is warning his Jewish hearers that unless they recognize him as their Messiah they will be excluded from the Kingdom.

This is how we are to understand Paul when he specifically uses the expression: Israel of God in Galatians 6:16. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 For those who hold to a rapture to heaven, they have to think Paul is referring to Jews, or at least Christian Jews, but this simply refutes everything he has said in the first five chapters of this letter.

In Galatians 3:23-29, Paul says we are saved by God’s grace and justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Paul is emphatic - people are not saved by ethnicity , by circumcision, by offering animal sacrifices or by keeping the Law of Moses.

In Galatians 4:21-31, those who follow Jesus, are likened to the free children of Sarah. Those seeking to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Jesus and are likened to the children of Hagar. Quoting Genesis 21, they will, he warns: never share in the inheritance…. Paul speaks of our freedom in Christ and our new life in the Holy Spirit. He contrasts living by the Spirit with living by our sinful nature.

See what Paul is saying? We have a choice – grace or law, faith or works? When Paul writes: Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, [and or even] to the Israel of God, he is obviously referring to all the followers of Jesus who have rejected the legalists who wanted to impose circumcision and the keeping of the Torah Law.

John Stott provides one of the best explanations of this verse: ‘All who walk by this rule’ and ‘the Israel of God’ are not two groups, but one. The connecting particle: ‘kai’ should be translated ‘even’, not ‘and’, or be omitted, as in the RSV. The Christian church has a direct continuity with God’s people in the Old Testament. Those who are Christians today are the true circumcision - Phil. 3:3, ‘Abraham’s offspring’ Galatians 3:29 and ‘the Israel of God’.

And don’t worry about the phrase ‘walk by this rule’ either. The Greek word ‘rule’ is kanon and simply describes a carpenter’s or surveyor’s plumb line. John Stott says, This is the ‘canon’ of Scripture, the doctrine of the apostles, and especially in the context of Galatians 6 the cross of Christ and the new creation. Such is the rule by which the church must walk and continuously judge and reform itself.

In the closing sentences of this letter, Paul is quoting an ancient prayer he would have prayed all his life on the Sabbath. Known as the additional 19th benediction to the 18 benedictions, and based on the Aaronic blessing of Numbers 6:24-26, God is asked in the final prayer for ‘Peace… and mercy on us and all Israel: your people.’ Now Paul prays this blessing on the Jewish and Gentile Christian believers in Jesus for they are the ‘Israelites of God’.

Fervent · 2025-11-13T19:44:52-0600

A lot of division comes about because of systematic theology and beliefs about Scriptural clarity leading to people insisting that their understanding is the Biblical teaching. The usual mix of pride and tribalism rears its ugly head, and rather than taking the time to understand where other people are coming from and how they are getting to their understanding the knee jerk reaction is to "defend the faith" whenever someone dares to think outside of the lockstep of the group.

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