Jesus perfectly complied with the Law of God - Perfectly fulfilled the Law of God

[daq]

Okay, I understand that as a Yes, there is something at the end of Isaiah being celebrated in addition to the seventh day referred to here

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:9-10 - New International Reader's Version

Do all your work in six days. But the seventh day is a sabbath to honor the LORD your God. Do not do any work on that day. The same command applies to your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and your animals. It also applies to any outsiders who live in your towns.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes, my reading of Isaiah 66:23 is as follows, And it shall come to pass, that according to a Hodesh in its Hodesh, and according to a Shabbat in its Shabbat, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says YHWH. And these two statements are taken from Numbers 28:10, (a Shabbat in its Shabbat), and Numbers 28:14, (a Hodesh in its Hodesh).

Numbers 28:1-10 Daily Tamiyd-Continual Offerings

Please bear with me through these definitions and I pray that the results be rewarding. H3533 כָּבַשׁ kâbash BDB Definition: 1) to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to bring into bondage, make subservient 1a2) to subdue, force, violate 1a3) to subdue...

www.christianforums.com

 

[BobRyan]

If, after God gathers all the nations, we celebrate the Sabbath and then go and look on dead bodies, I'm fine with that

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 66:18 - New American Standard Bible

“For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all the nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.

www.biblegateway.com

How nice - since
"The SAbbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
And it is all mankind keeping Sabbath in Gen 2:2-3 as Ex 20:11 points out.
And it is gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled "the next Sabbath" in Acts 13 -- not Jews
And it is for all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth as per IS 66:23

 

[Leaf473]

How nice - since
"The SAbbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
And it is all mankind keeping Sabbath in Gen 2:2-3 as Ex 20:11 points out.
And it is gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled "the next Sabbath" in Acts 13 -- not Jews
And it is for all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth as per IS 66:23

Yes, the Sabbath was made for humans, which is why the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Since the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath, it follows that the body of Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. The church is the body of Christ. Thus, the church is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus perfectly complied with the Sabbath, and his body, the church, is Lord of that same Sabbath.

 

[Leaf473]

How nice - since
"The SAbbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
And it is all mankind keeping Sabbath in Gen 2:2-3 as Ex 20:11 points out.
And it is gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled "the next Sabbath" in Acts 13 -- not Jews
And it is for all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth as per IS 66:23

Also note that in Isaiah 66, humans are traveling to Jerusalem to celebrate the Sabbath. That's different from how most Seventh-Day observers celebrate the Sabbath today.

 

[daq]

Yes, the Sabbath was made for humans, which is why the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Since the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath, it follows that the body of Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. The church is the body of Christ. Thus, the church is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus perfectly complied with the Sabbath, and his body, the church, is Lord of that same Sabbath.

Imo that's a pretty dangerous position to hold because it pits "the church" position against seventh day observers, and if those who observe the Shabbat can show that the position of "the church" is incorrect according to the scripture then what does that say for "the church"?

The Son of Man is Master of the Shabbat because the Son of Man is the one spoken about in Gen 1:26-28, not the first man Adam who was formed of dust from the soil in Gen 2:7. This is proven by Psa 8:4-8 which surely speaks of the dominion given to the Son of Man in Gen 1:26-28 in the sixth day of creation.

Psalm 8:4-8 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: [Gen 1:26-28]
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; [Gen 1:26-28]
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26-28]

Paul says the first man Adam is the one formed in Gen 2:7 who became a living soul, earthy, dust-like, soil-like, (choikos), which not many seem to be willing to hear, but he expounds it fully enough in 1Cor 15:25-49. First comes that which is natural, (Gen 2:7), then that which is spiritual, (Gen 1:26-28), and thus the two chapters of the opening creation account must somehow be meshed together as one record: they are not meant to be understood in a linear chronological order of events. This is readily apparent by what is stated in the colophon statement in Gen 2:4, and by what immediately follows that in Gen 2:5-7, so Gen 2:7 is therefore most likely somewhere in the third yom of Gen 1:9-13.

 

[Leaf473]

Imo that's a pretty dangerous position to hold because it pits "the church" position against seventh day observers, and if those who observe the Shabbat can show that the position of "the church" is incorrect...

It's an extremely big if. I think it would require showing that Jesus did not build his church.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:18 - New International Reader's Version

Here is what I tell you. You are Peter. On this rock I will build my church. The gates of hell will not be strong enough to destroy it.

www.biblegateway.com

...according to the scripture then what does that say for "the church"?

The Son of Man is Master of the Shabbat because the Son of Man is the one spoken about in Gen 1:26-28, not the first man Adam who was formed of dust from the soil in Gen 2:7. This is proven by Psa 8:4-8 which surely speaks of the dominion given to the Son of Man in Gen 1:26-28 in the sixth day of creation.

Psalm 8:4-8 KJV
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: [Gen 1:26-28]
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; [Gen 1:26-28]
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. [Gen 1:26-28]

Paul says the first man Adam is the one formed in Gen 2:7 who became a living soul, earthy, dust-like, soil-like, (choikos), which not many seem to be willing to hear, but he expounds it fully enough in 1Cor 15:25-49. First comes that which is natural, (Gen 2:7), then that which is spiritual, (Gen 1:26-28), and thus the two chapters of the opening creation account must somehow be meshed together as one record: they are not meant to be understood in a linear chronological order of events. This is readily apparent by what is stated in the colophon statement in Gen 2:4, and by what immediately follows that in Gen 2:5-7, so Gen 2:7 is therefore most likely somewhere in the third yom of Gen 1:9-13.

 

[Gary K]

It's an extremely big if. I think it would require showing that Jesus did not build his church.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:18 - New International Reader's Version

Here is what I tell you. You are Peter. On this rock I will build my church. The gates of hell will not be strong enough to destroy it.

www.biblegateway.com

You need to dig a little deeper.

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Peter =

[*StrongsGreek*]
04074
Πέτρος Pétros, pet'-ros
apparently a primary word;
a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock.
Compare 2786.

rock =

[*StrongsGreek*]
04073
πέτρα pétra, pet'-ra
feminine of the same as 4074;
a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):--rock.

Jesus was referring to Himself not Peter when He said He would build His church upon rock. You really think Jesus thought He could His church upon a sinful human being?

 

[daq]

It's an extremely big if. I think it would require showing that Jesus did not build his church.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:18 - New International Reader's Version

Here is what I tell you. You are Peter. On this rock I will build my church. The gates of hell will not be strong enough to destroy it.

www.biblegateway.com

I don't think you fully understood the point. You are technically siding with those who changed the Shabbat to Sunday. Are you saying you are a Roman Catholic? I doubt that is what you are saying but that is the corner you have now seemingly backed yourself into.

Moreover, in case you missed it in my previous post, the scripture does indeed prove the majority to be wrong as far as the Shabbat because the Son of Man comes before the Shabbat in the creation account, and therefore the Son of Man is Master of the Shabbat which is mentioned in Gen 2:1-3, which is surely not Sunday.

 

[Leaf473]

You need to dig a little deeper.

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Peter =

[*StrongsGreek*]
04074
Πέτρος Pétros, pet'-ros
apparently a primary word;
a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock.
Compare 2786.

rock =

[*StrongsGreek*]
04073
πέτρα pétra, pet'-ra
feminine of the same as 4074;
a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):--rock.

Jesus was referring to Himself not Peter when He said He would build His church upon rock.

You really think Jesus thought He could His church upon a sinful human being?

No, I don't think that. The part of the passage I was focusing on was that Jesus would build his church.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't think you fully understood the point.

Possibly.

You are technically siding with those who changed the Shabbat to Sunday.

Possibly, or at least altered how the Sabbath was observed. That would be within the authority of the body of Christ, assuming this authority continues through the church as a whole to this day.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:19 - New Century Version

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; the things you don’t allow on earth will be the things that God does not allow, and the things you allow on earth will be the things that God allows.”

www.biblegateway.com

Are you saying you are a Roman Catholic?

No.

I doubt that is what you are saying but that is the corner you have now seemingly backed yourself into.

No again. I believe the body of Christ is larger than those in full agreement with the Pope.

Moreover, in case you missed it in my previous post, the scripture does indeed prove the majority to be wrong...

Is this no longer true?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 3:15 - New International Reader's Version

Then if I have to put off my visit, you will know how people should act in God’s family. The family of God is the church of the living God. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

www.biblegateway.com

Perhaps a better question, where is the church that Jesus built today?

...as far as the Shabbat because the Son of Man comes before the Shabbat in the creation account, and therefore the Son of Man is Master of the Shabbat which is mentioned in Gen 2:1-3, which is surely not Sunday.

I understand the situation differently. As the son of man, Jesus was the most human, an uncorrupted human. Since the Sabbath was made for humans, he has authority over it, being a completely uncorrupted human.

 

[daq]

Possibly, or at least altered how the Sabbath was observed. That would be within the authority of the body of Christ, assuming this authority continues through the church as a whole to this day.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:19 - New Century Version

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; the things you don’t allow on earth will be the things that God does not allow, and the things you allow on earth will be the things that God allows.”

www.biblegateway.com

See what I mean? The scripture proves that whatever it is you mean by "the church" must be the wrong "church" and therefore it was not a good idea to take the position which you have taken.

No again. I believe the body of Christ is larger than those in full agreement with the Pope.

However there are other "churches" that observe the Shabbat. Which "church" is therefore the true "body of Meshiah" because all of them cannot be the true "church" according to what is taught in the scripture.

Is this no longer true?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 3:15 - New International Reader's Version

Then if I have to put off my visit, you will know how people should act in God’s family. The family of God is the church of the living God. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

www.biblegateway.com

Perhaps a better question, where is the church that Jesus built today?

Perhaps now you understand why I said what I said about the position you take? You've forced the issue based on Shabbat observance and the scripture proves you to be on the wrong side concerning the Shabbat.

I understand the situation differently. As the son of man, Jesus was the most human, an uncorrupted human. Since the Sabbath was made for humans, he has authority over it, being a completely uncorrupted human.

Freewill does not mean each of us gets to choose what is truth: it just means those who believe the scripture believe the truth, according to the scripture, and those who do not, do not, because they freely choose not to believe what the scripture teaches.

 

[Leaf473]

See what I mean? The scripture proves that whatever it is you mean by "the church" must be the wrong "church"...

What does the scripture mean by "church"?

...and therefore it was not a good idea to take the position which you have taken.



However there are other "churches" that observe the Shabbat.

Which "church" is therefore the true "body of Meshiah" because all of them cannot be the true "church" according to what is taught in the scripture.

What is your answer to that question?

Perhaps now you understand why I said what I said about the position you take? You've forced the issue based on Shabbat observance and the scripture proves you to be on the wrong side concerning the Shabbat.

Freewill does not mean each of us gets to choose what is truth: it just means those who believe the scripture believe the truth,

Did you pick out which documents are scripture yourself, or are you following the traditions of some group of christians - an assembly, a church - from the past?

...according to the scripture, and those who do not, do not, because they freely choose not to believe what the scripture teaches.

 

[Gary K]

No, I don't think that. The part of the passage I was focusing on was that Jesus would build his church.

That's the part I focused on. You were talking about how Peter was to be the rock upon which Jesus built His church.

 

[Leaf473]

That's the part I focused on. You were talking about how Peter was to be the rock upon which Jesus built His church.

No, I was talking about how Jesus said he would build his church.

If you believe that the passage I quoted says that he would build it on Peter, that would be your interpretation (I don't think either one of us believes that.)

Jesus said he would build his church, he said that he is Lord of the Sabbath, and we know that the church is the body of Christ into which we are all baptized by one Spirit.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 - New International Reader's Version

One Body but Many Parts - There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were...

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 - New International Reader's Version

We give thanks for the cup at the Lord’s Supper. When we do, aren’t we sharing in the blood of Christ? When we break the bread, aren’t we sharing in the body of Christ? Just as there is one loaf, so we who are many are one body. We all share the one loaf.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

No, I was talking about how Jesus said he would build his church.

If you believe that the passage I quoted says that he would build it on Peter, that would be your interpretation (I don't think either one of us believes that.)

Jesus said he would build his church, he said that he is Lord of the Sabbath, and we know that the church is the body of Christ into which we are all baptized by one Spirit.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 - New International Reader's Version

One Body but Many Parts - There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were...

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 - New International Reader's Version

We give thanks for the cup at the Lord’s Supper. When we do, aren’t we sharing in the blood of Christ? When we break the bread, aren’t we sharing in the body of Christ? Just as there is one loaf, so we who are many are one body. We all share the one loaf.

www.biblegateway.com

Here is what you said.

It's an extremely big if. I think it would require showing that Jesus did not build his church.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:18 - New International Reader's Version ​

Here is what I tell you. You are Peter. On this rock I will build my church. The gates of hell will not be strong enough to destroy it.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Here is what you said.

It's an extremely big if. I think it would require showing that Jesus did not build his church.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 16:18 - New International Reader's Version​

Here is what I tell you. You are Peter. On this rock I will build my church. The gates of hell will not be strong enough to destroy it.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes, "it would require showing that Jesus did not build his church."

If you're saying that Jesus did not build his church, then we disagree there

 

[daq]

What does the scripture mean by "church"?

Basically an assembly which can have a few different applications.
(The kingdom of Elohim is within you, Luke 17:20-21).

What is your answer to that question?

Matthew 12:46-50 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The body is the temple of Elohim, and the body has its various members of the household, and the members of the assembly of his hand were no doubt doing the will of the Father in all his earthly ministry in the Gospel accounts.

Did you pick out which documents are scripture yourself, or are you following the traditions of some group of christians - an assembly, a church - from the past?

The Spirit-Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts and the Apocalypse and the Tanak Body of Meshiah, (the Patriarchs, Mosheh, the Prophets, and the Writings), show me which writings agree with their inspired writings and which writings do not agree.

 

[Leaf473]

Basically an assembly which can have a few different applications.
(The kingdom of Elohim is within you, Luke 17:20-21).



Matthew 12:46-50 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

View attachment 343188

The body is the temple of Elohim, and the body has its various members of the household, and the members of the assembly of his hand were no doubt doing the will of the Father in all his earthly ministry in the Gospel accounts.

Sounds good so far. And did Jesus build such an assembly, and has it been overwhelming the gates of Hades?

The Spirit-Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts and the Apocalypse and the Tanak Body of Meshiah, (the Patriarchs, Mosheh, the Prophets, and the Writings), show me which writings agree with their inspired writings and which writings do not agree.

Did you choose which Gospel accounts etc yourself?

There are many others

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

 

[reddogs]

How nice - since
"The SAbbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
And it is all mankind keeping Sabbath in Gen 2:2-3 as Ex 20:11 points out.
And it is gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching" to be scheduled "the next Sabbath" in Acts 13 -- not Jews
And it is for all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth as per IS 66:23

All mankind who follows God will keep it, the rebellious ones will not be in the kingdom...

 

[BobRyan]

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath .... shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Addresses two key points --- irrefutably

1. is the weekly Sabbath abolished at the cross? Answer: no - it is kept for all eternity after the cross.
2. is the weekly Sabbath for all mankind or "just the Jews"? Answer - "for all mankind.

Now of course - some people we find those Bible details to be "inconvenient" and will respond with "let's talk about something else"