What's the "orthodox" view of the law of Christ?

[fhansen]

Sure it does:

1 John 3:23 And this is his command:

1] to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,

2] and to love one another as he commanded us.

This is in line with,

1] This is the first and great commandment

2] And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

So clearly faith fulfills the first, four under the New Covenant and then the Spirit writes in our minds the principle behind the last 6 commandments.

1 John 3:23 doesn't equate faith and love; that's why they're both mentioned. In classical theology-and this makes sense to me-we can have faith without love while love, OTOH, encompasses the other virtues. This also aligns with Paul in 1 Cor:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Faith, as we persist and continue in it, should grow into love-but it doesn't, of necessity, do so on it's own.

 

[from scratch]

What purpose? Not to condemn?

Now, what is the law of Christ?

Maybe you should tell us. The topic is yours. Surely you have an definition or some kind of statement as to what that is. I think you're the one that compared them to the last 6 of the 10. So is the Ten Commandments the law of Christ? Your comparison makes it look that way.

 

[from scratch]

If you insist...

Its your statement about me I'm agreeing with. Its not something that came from me nor the way I think about myself.

"Where there is no law" there is no guilt. The law was given to leave mankind without an excuse.

That's not what the Bible says. It says no law no violation of law.

...where no law is, there is no transgression.

...but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Yet all were dying anyway! Why? Because the folks between Adam & Moses shared Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity.

Sin brings death.

That's because neither I nor Paul said we are obligated to it. We stand guilty before the law; hence we are under its curse awaiting execution, unless we receive Christ!

Are we obligated the law of Christ you showed to be the same as the Ten Commandments?

 

[Setyoufree]

1 John 3:23 doesn't equate faith and love; that's why they're both mentioned. .

Our Job is faith from first to last. Faith in Christ allows Him to produce works of faith in us. keep in mind He said "without Me you can do nothing" - nothing good, that is.

 

[Setyoufree]

Maybe you should tell us. The topic is yours. Surely you have an definition or some kind of statement as to what that is. I think you're the one that compared them to the last 6 of the 10. So is the Ten Commandments the law of Christ? Your comparison makes it look that way.

The law of Christ is technically "the law of Spirit". You can find this in Romans 8:2

It is the power of God's Spirit that brings us into harmony with the law. See Romans 8:4. The law here is the same as the last 6 commandments of the moral law, but more than the mere letter.

 

[Setyoufree]

That's not what the Bible says. It says no law no violation of law.

...where no law is, there is no transgression.

...but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Simply stated the law can not charge you with transgression unless you know the law.

Then why are you and I dying?

Because when Adam transgressed (sinned against God's command) his humanity became polluted with self. Since we all share his fallen life we are born condemned.

Condemnation and guilt are two different things.

Guilt involves volition. Unless we commit Adam's sin we are not guilty of his transgression. However, because we share in Adam's fallen life we stand condemned. That's what Romans chapter 5 is all about

 

[Setyoufree]

Are we obligated the law of Christ you showed to be the same as the Ten Commandments?

Obligated sounds legalistic....The law of Christ is "the law of the Spirit" which gives the believer power to come into harmony with the last 6 commandments.

 

[Setyoufree]

Sin brings death.

Yes...the first death. And the law puts you in death row awaiting the 2nd death.

 

[from scratch]

The law of Christ is technically "the law of Spirit". You can find this in Romans 8:2

It is the power of God's Spirit that brings us into harmony with the law. See Romans 8:4. The law here is the same as the last 6 commandments of the moral law, but more than the mere letter.

OK but I don't understand what you're getting at then. Are you saying the Ten Commandments are the law of Christ?

I read -

the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

It isn't merely the law of the Spirit.

I love Romans BTW.

 

[from scratch]

Simply stated the law can not charge you with transgression unless you know the law.

Next verse Rom 8:3 - For what the law could not do,

Oh wait a minute you said charge not change.

Yes that is a primary purpose of the law. Rom 11:32.

Then why are you and I dying?

Because the body isn't redeemed. It isn't subject to the law.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because when Adam transgressed (sinned against God's command) his humanity became polluted with self. Since we all share his fallen life we are born condemned.

Adams soul died and he no longer had fellowship with God.

Condemnation and guilt are two different things.

True and condemnation is what is required to judge.

Guilt involves volition. Unless we commit Adam's sin we are not guilty of his transgression. However, because we share in Adam's fallen life we stand condemned. That's what Romans chapter 5 is all about

No guilt isn't an act of the will. Guilt is what one has done without regard to right or wrong. Guilt is seldom applied to one who does something good.

We inherited from Adam. I really don't want to get into a semantics discussion over the facts. Currently I can't explain it in a way not to be argued with. I don't like beating the bush.

 

[Setyoufree]

OK but I don't understand what you're getting at then. Are you saying the Ten Commandments are the law of Christ?

I read -

the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

It isn't merely the law of the Spirit.

I love Romans BTW.

No, the law of the Spirit simply means the power of God's Spirit, the same power that was in Christ Jesus. It is this power that can override "the law of sin" (the power of sin) so that we can become more like Christ.....

If you read Romans chapter 7 & 8 you will notice Paul speaks of 3 laws (forces or powers):

1] The law of sin

2] The law of my mind

3] The law of the Spirit

# 1 is our bent-to-self that makes all sin possible.

# 2 is our will power - our desire to do good.

# 3 is the power of God's Spirit.

Notice that our desire to do good, in and of itself, does not produce righteousness:

Romans 7: 22 For in my inner being (in my heart/conscience) I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind (my will power - my desire to do good) and making me a prisoner of the law of sin (my sinful nature - my bent-to-self) at work within my members....

So our desire to do good through our will power always fails because "the law of sin" is stronger than our will power. But "the law of the Spirit" can defeat "the law of sin" and therefore we can become more in harmony with God's law.

Read Romans 8:2-4 to see this:

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh (our will power), God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law (agape love) might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....

 

[Setyoufree]

We inherited from Adam. I really don't want to get into a semantics discussion over the facts. Currently I can't explain it in a way not to be argued with. I don't like beating the bush.

I need to start another thread. I'll call it "Romans chapter 5 & universal condemnation". This will be a separate topic....

 

[fhansen]

Our Job is faith from first to last. Faith in Christ allows Him to produce works of faith in us. keep in mind He said "without Me you can do nothing" - nothing good, that is.

That’s fine as long as we’ve not somehow managed to replace the moral imperative to do to the right thing with faith, as if faith is all that’s ultimately required of us. Faith does not equal justice for man; rather faith should lead to it. Love equals justice for man, which is why Jesus emphasized the kinds of things that He did: the greatest commandments, humility, meekness, purity of heart, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, love of and obedience to Him.

We’re not without obligation-obligation being something Adam expressly rejected. But Jesus’ burden is easy and His yoke light as we come to agree with our obligation, recognizing the wisdom behind it, as we come to agree with and align ourselves with the Father’s will, with the help of grace, because, as you said, apart from Him we can do nothing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That’s fine as long as we’ve not somehow managed to replace the moral imperative to do to the right thing with faith, as if faith is all that’s ultimately required of us. Faith does not equal justice for man; rather faith should lead to it. Love equals justice for man, which is why Jesus emphasized the kinds of things that He did: the greatest commandments, humility, meekness, purity of heart, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, love of and obedience to Him.

We’re not without obligation-obligation being something Adam expressly rejected. But Jesus’ burden is easy and His yoke light as we come to agree with our obligation, recognizing the wisdom behind it, as we come to agree with and align ourselves with the Father’s will, with the help of grace, because, as you said, apart from Him we can do nothing.

When faith is seen as believing, trusting, and fidelity then faith is indeed what we need most in order to walk with God but unfortunately many see faith as belief and trust but not as fidelity. The loss of fidelity as a component of faith's definition may be one of the reasons why there is so much dispute about law and grace between Christians.

 

[Setyoufree]

4 so that the requirement of the Law (agape love) might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....

Notice that "the law" requires that you have "agape" to come into harmony with it.

Paul states this in Romans 13:10 "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love [agape] is the fulfillment of the law.http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/13.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-13

 

[fhansen]

When faith is seen as believing, trusting, and fidelity then faith is indeed what we need most in order to walk with God but unfortunately many see faith as belief and trust but not as fidelity. The loss of fidelity as a component of faith's definition may be one of the reasons why there is so much dispute about law and grace between Christians.

And OTOH, at the other extreme, some see faith as a kind of magic wand where, having once believed, their eternal fate is sealed, the manner in which we live our lives ultimately having no role to play; the abuse can go both ways it seems.

 

[from scratch]

No, the law of the Spirit simply means the power of God's Spirit, the same power that was in Christ Jesus. It is this power that can override "the law of sin" (the power of sin) so that we can become more like Christ.....

If you read Romans chapter 7 & 8 you will notice Paul speaks of 3 laws (forces or powers):

1] The law of sin

2] The law of my mind

3] The law of the Spirit

# 1 is our bent-to-self that makes all sin possible.

# 2 is our will power - our desire to do good.

# 3 is the power of God's Spirit.

Notice that our desire to do good, in and of itself, does not produce righteousness:

Romans 7: 22 For in my inner being (in my heart/conscience) I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind (my will power - my desire to do good) and making me a prisoner of the law of sin (my sinful nature - my bent-to-self) at work within my members....

So our desire to do good through our will power always fails because "the law of sin" is stronger than our will power. But "the law of the Spirit" can defeat "the law of sin" and therefore we can become more in harmony with God's law.

Read Romans 8:2-4 to see this:

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh (our will power), God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law (agape love) might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....

There is no such thing as the law of the Spirit. The phrase is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. You've split off what you want to hear. The subject of the sentence is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. There is no verb in that phrase. Furthermore it isn't the law of the Spirit that set you free from the law of sin and death. What you've done is eliminate Christ Jesus. This is necessary to prove one can possess salvation through the law issued at Sinai.

Just like has been quoted the commandments are what matters 1 Cor 7:19. The use of the verse as intended by passes Jesus. Jesus trivialized the commandments for access to God. Jesus sad you will go through Him if you want access. This is salvation. Jesus said everyone else are thieves.

Now if one ants to use 1 Cor 7:19 they need to define the commandments Paul is talking about. In the context of the way the SDA use the verse they are meaning the Christian is obligated to keep the law against what Jesus taught. His disciple quoted Jesus saying -

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

The same disciple also said -

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[from scratch]

I need to start another thread. I'll call it "Romans chapter 5 & universal condemnation". This will be a separate topic....

Be my guest. Universal condemnation is fully supported by 1 single verse of Paul's writing -

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So my best guess is this will be denied.

 

[from scratch]

That’s fine as long as we’ve not somehow managed to replace the moral imperative to do to the right thing with faith, as if faith is all that’s ultimately required of us. Faith does not equal justice for man; rather faith should lead to it. Love equals justice for man, which is why Jesus emphasized the kinds of things that He did: the greatest commandments, humility, meekness, purity of heart, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, love of and obedience to Him.

We’re not without obligation-obligation being something Adam expressly rejected. But Jesus’ burden is easy and His yoke light as we come to agree with our obligation, recognizing the wisdom behind it, as we come to agree with and align ourselves with the Father’s will, with the help of grace, because, as you said, apart from Him we can do nothing.

Free will means obligated to nothing. A relationship with God is optional. That doesn't mean obligation to the past covenant that has been replaced just as God promised and Jesus (God the Son) testified to as reality. This also doesn't mean one is free to sin without repercussion. No where does the Bible suggest such a thing. The body has already received its irrevocable sentence of death.

 

[from scratch]

When faith is seen as believing, trusting, and fidelity then faith is indeed what we need most in order to walk with God but unfortunately many see faith as belief and trust but not as fidelity. The loss of fidelity as a component of faith's definition may be one of the reasons why there is so much dispute about law and grace between Christians.

Only for those requiring the keeping of the law. They don't understand following the leading of the Holy Spirit doesn't lead one to sin. They think following the leading of the Holy Spirit leads one to the law. This is in direct conflict with the Bible.