The Righteous Requirements Of The Law

[Mr. M]

Show what you said was true within the text of Romans 7.

Does the law of sin say "thou shalt covet"?
No it does not.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!
On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.
For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said,
“You shall not covet.”
You have not proven anything except to take one verse:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
and using grammar to interpret "another law", to argue that there exists
a law of sin.
You do not seem to comprehend the meaning of "manner of speaking".
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh.

Paul refers to sin working in our flesh as a "law of sin" to help those who lack spiritual
understanding. You cannot elaborate on the law of sin because there is no such "code",
it is just a manner of speaking.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law
were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,
so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Again, delivered from the law of sin, or the law of God? If you truly have an understanding
of these things, support what you believe by way of explanation, rather than accusing me
of playing games, rabbit holes and red herrings. Any explanation of the law of sin as
defined by Romans is only a construct of the mind of the flesh, not the Spirit. Or is
Romans 6 not applicable to Romans 7? Maybe if you had a better understanding from
Romans 6, you would not have found rabbit holes and red herrings in Romans 7.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary,
I would not have known sin except through the law.
For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.
For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

This fully supports this statement:
One Law, with two passions aroused in opposition.
Delight in the inward man, sinful passions in the flesh.
It is exactly what Paul has stated in the above verses.
Anyone who cannot comprehend this has their mind on
the flesh, and not the Spirit.

 

[HIM]

Does the law of sin say "thou shalt covet"?

No that is the Law of God. Will explain later as time allows.

Maybe if you had a better understanding from
Romans 6, you would not have found rabbit holes and red herrings in Romans 7.

I did not find red herrings and rabbit holes in chapter 7. Just your question. Don't start twisting words. I don't have time for that either.
Have a nice evening.

 

[Gary K]

That is not an answer to the question.
Which law have we become dead to through the body of Christ?
The Law of sin or the Law of God

Your question implies a false conclusion on your part.

 

[Mr. M]

Your question implies a false conclusion on your part.

What would that be?
If there are two laws in discussion,
and the chapter under study states that
we are set free from the law, which one
seems to be a legitimate inquiry.
You cannot state that a false conclusion has been made
without specifying your meaning. That is a two cent comment.
Could you spare a dime?

 

[HIM]

Does the law of sin say "thou shalt covet"?
No it does not.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!
On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.
For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said,
“You shall not covet.”

Nope it is the Law of God.

You have not proven anything except to take one verse:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
and using grammar to interpret "another law", to argue that there exists
a law of sin.

Funny that you say that. Because it is 10 verses. And it isn't just the grammar. It is the context as well.

And as was said, you're not proving anything by not addressing it,
Address the points please. These points are facts and there are several.

Paul states this law is another law in verse 23 and this is a fact. The word another is heteros in the Greek and means different. THIS makes this law, nomos in the Greek, the thing established, different from the one previously mentioned.

Couple that with the fact it is said in contrast to the Law of God he delights in, in verse 22.

AND This Law that is the Law of God that he delights in was said in contrast to the law he said he found in verse 21 this is a fact.
Which was said in context to the fact that when he would do good evil is present with him, and the good that he would, he can't, but the evil that he would not, that he does. Stating so he then says it wasn't him that is doing it but the sin that dwells in Him. This is the law he found that is the other law warring in his member against the Law that he delights in, the Law of God, the Torah.

Can't get any clearer than that.

But let's add another fact that is brought out in the grammar. Both God in the clause "law of God" and sin in the clause "law of sin" are in the genitive case in the Greek and also have their very own definite article. Which means that the law mentioned of God, is the Law of the God. And the Law mentioned of sin. is the Law of the sin, making a distinct distinction between said laws.

And that is not it is it? No, Paull again makes a distinction between the two by contrasting the two Law in verse 25 when He thanks God that with His mind he serves the Law of God. but sadly with His flesh he serves the Law of sin.

And he continues in verse 2 and 3 with another contrast. This time it is the Law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus setting us free from the Law of the sin which he served with his flesh that the law of God which was weak through the flesh because of the sin in his flesh could not do.

So now we have the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus. The Law of the Sin. And the Law which was weak through the flesh which is the Law of God.

And How does this Law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus set us free from the Law of sin? He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh.

This all confirms Jesus' words in John 8 when the gainsayers said they were never in bondage. He said Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant, the sinner shall not abide in the House forever, but the Son does forever. And if the Son shall make you free, free you shall be indeed.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You do not seem to comprehend the meaning of "manner of speaking".
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh.

Paul refers to sin working in our flesh as a "law of sin" to help those who lack spiritual
understanding. You cannot elaborate on the law of sin because there is no such "code",
it is just a manner of speaking.

And yet God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us.
Maybe you should of told God He shouldn't of wasted His time, since Sin doesn't really have power over us huh?

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law
were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,
so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Again, delivered from the law of sin, or the law of God? If you truly have an understanding
of these things, support what you believe by way of explanation, rather than accusing me
of playing games, rabbit holes and red herrings. Any explanation of the law of sin as
defined by Romans is only a construct of the mind of the flesh, not the Spirit. Or is
Romans 6 not applicable to Romans 7? Maybe if you had a better understanding from
Romans 6, you would not have found rabbit holes and red herrings in Romans 7.

Yes Rabbit hole and red herring. Why was that said. I could be wrong but doubt that you are speaking of the sinlessness that we can now obtain through the death and resurrection of Jesus that is the context to which we are no longer under dominion to the Law. We are to have a New heart and mind created in Him through us participating in His resurrection. This New creation in and through Christ has no need to be told what is wrong because they are not doing wrong. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but CHRIST lives in us. And the LIFE WE NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH WE LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US. WE ARE a new creature created in Christ Jesus. Old things, the old man has passed away and all is new and of God. We have been begotten by the word of truth. Having His Law in our minds, His word in our hearts and mouths through His Spirit through Christ. The Body of sin destroyed, henceforth we are not serving sin. Because sin no longer has dominion over us being condemned in the flesh. That is the Faith in which we preach.

 

[Grip Docility]

That is correct neither does what you present say the the law of sin and the law of God are the same. So you can play games if you wish. I am not here for that. Show what you said was true within the text of Romans 7. Present your case. I am not interested in rabbit holes or red herrings.

Him, are you referring to the Decalogue, which is to say, the 10 commandments?

 

[Mr. M]

Yes Rabbit hole and red herring. Why was that said. I could be wrong but doubt that you are speaking of the sinlessness that we can now obtain through the death and resurrection of Jesus that is the context to which we are no longer under dominion to the Law. We are to have a New heart and mind created in Him through us participating in His resurrection. This New creation in and through Christ has no need to be told what is wrong because they are not doing wrong. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but CHRIST lives in us. And the LIFE WE NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH WE LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US. WE ARE a new creature created in Christ Jesus. Old things, the old man has passed away and all is new and of God. We have been begotten by the word of truth. Having His Law in our minds, His word in our hearts and mouths through His Spirit through Christ. The Body of sin destroyed, henceforth we are not serving sin. Because sin no longer has dominion over us being condemned in the flesh. That is the Faith in which we preach.

You were wrong to doubt. You demand clarification of Romans 7,
then introduce Romans 8 and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus,
as if I am unfamiliar. And you accuse me of playing games!
This is introduced way back in chapter 3:20-26;
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

Genesis 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge,
my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

No that is the Law of God. Will explain later as time allows.

You still owe me an explanation. Is not the Law of God= the Law of Faith and the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?
The utterances at Sinai were words of covenant, and predicated on the fact that the entire Assembly of Israel
heard the Voice of God, even as Abraham had to have, to trust in His Word, and receive the imputed righteousness
by the Law of Faith.
Perhaps you read it wrong, but I asked, "does the law of sin say 'thou shalt covet'?
Your reply is above, "No, that is the Law of God". Clearly preposterous.
The commandment that could not bring righteousness said "thou shalt not covet",
and Romans 7 states this commandment aroused covetousness in him.
Clearly this is the law of Moses, not the Law of God, of Faith, of the Spirit...
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not!
For if there had been a law given which could have given life,
truly righteousness would have been by the law.

The Law of God, the Law of the Spirit declares:
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of s

You keep quoting this portion of Romans 7, and state that it clearly states the law of sin is another law. Yeah, I can read. But when I ask you to use that understanding as a fact rather than a manner of speaking because of the weakness of the flesh, and apply it to earlier in Romans 7, upon which Paul is building his argument, you refuse.
Romans 7:
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law
were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,
so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary,
I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known
covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.
For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

Based on this passage, I concluded that to state unequivocally that there is "another law
of sin" is meaningless without the acknowledgement that this "other law" was only made
known by the commandments.
You have the gall to come on my thread and accuse me of playing games, but you dissembled
from the start but trying to force your thread that you have been arguing all weak about "the law
of sin" as if this is of great importance to Paul's doctrine, when he was only presenting the
failure of the law to establish the righteousness of God because of the weakness of the flesh.
The topic of this thread, and the letter to the Romans is the righteousness of the Law, as
righteousness is mentioned 36X in the letter.
Your ad hominem attacks have not moved me. You have been off topic from the start.
If I concluded that the law of sin, even if defined as "another law"is a flesh reaction
to the commandments given to Moses, and meaningless without that law,
it is based on Romans 7, not a red herring.

 

[Gary K]

Him, are you referring to the Decalogue or 10 commandments?

Huh? The Decalogue is the 10 commandments.

Definition of DECALOGUE

ten commandments; a basic set of rules carrying binding authority… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Grip Docility]

Huh? The Decalogue is the 10 commandments.

Definition of DECALOGUE

ten commandments; a basic set of rules carrying binding authority… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Right, I say Decalogue out of habit, and some don't know that means the 10 commandments. Is that the Law you are speaking of?

 

[Gary K]

Right, I say Decalogue out of habit, and some don't know that means the 10 commandments. Is that the Law you are speaking of?

I only responded because I was so shocked by your question to HIM.

 

[Grip Docility]

I only responded because I was so shocked by your question to HIM.

I tried to save a few words. I changed "or" to which is to say the 10 commandments. Thank you for the constructive criticism, Brother in His Name.

 

[B Griffin]

This is introduced way back in chapter 3:20-26;
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I'll give you're meme a try...

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 Jn 3:4)
"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." (Ro 6:14)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." (Ro 8:1)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (Ro 8:2)
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Ro 8:3–4)
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Ro 8:10)

Lawlessness does not dominate us because our salvation is not a matter of law, but is a matter of grace. That is why we are not under condemnation. The fact that we have new life in Christ Jesus through spiritual birth sets us free from the curse of the law which condemns the lawless to death. The law (anchored by the ten commandments), as good as it is, could not save us because of the sinfulness of our flesh. So God accomplished what the law could never accomplish by sending His Son to die on the cross for our lawlessness so that with Him in our hearts the law's requirements for righteousness might be fulfilled in us.

Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift! (2 Co 9:15)

 

[Grip Docility]

I'll give you're meme a try...

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 Jn 3:4)
"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." (Ro 6:14)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." (Ro 8:1)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (Ro 8:2)
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Ro 8:3–4)
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Ro 8:10)

Lawlessness does not dominate us because our salvation is not a matter of law, but is a matter of grace. That is why we are not under condemnation. The fact that we have new life in Christ Jesus through spiritual birth sets us free from the curse of the law which condemns the lawless to death. The law (anchored by the ten commandments), as good as it is, could not save us because of the sinfulness of our flesh. So God accomplished what the law could never accomplish by sending His Son to die on the cross for our lawlessness so that with Him in our hearts the law's requirements for righteousness might be fulfilled in us.

Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift! (2 Co 9:15)

 

[HIM]

Him, are you referring to the Decalogue, which is to say, the 10 commandments?

No, the Law would include the Ten and that which is contained in the Book of the Law. Covetousness is mentioned which is of the Ten, but the Law, the Law of God that Paul delights in and that could never do away with sin, is all the statutes and commandments contained in the Book of the Law.

 

[Grip Docility]

No, the Law would include the Ten and that which is contained in the Book of the Law. Covetousness is mentioned which is of the Ten, but the Law, the Law of God that Paul delights in and that could never do away with sin, is all the statutes and commandments contained in the Book of the Law.

Do you agree, per Hebrews that there are two covenants, very specifically laid out, and identified? Which one are we under? The first or the New?

 

[HIM]

Do you agree, per Hebrews that there are two covenants, very specifically laid out, and identified? Which one are we under? The first or the New?

We are not under either. We are of the New. Which places the Ten and the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law in our minds. his Word in our hearts and mouths. Through His Indwelling Spirit, through Christ we are changed. Behold all is new and of God.
We are begotten by the word of truth. A new creation in Christ Jesus. We do God's will as revealed in His Word because we want to not because some Law says we have to. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for us. For we whom have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us. Because we are of the Spirit and not of the flesh. Since the old man has been crucified.

 

[Grip Docility]

We are not under either. We are of the New. Which places the Ten and the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law in our minds. his Word in our hearts and mouths. Through His Indwelling Spirit, through Christ we are changed. Behold all is new and of God.
We are begotten by the word of truth. A new creation in Christ Jesus. We do God's will as revealed in His Word because we want to not because some Law says we have to. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for us. For we whom have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us. Because we are of the Spirit and not of the flesh. Since the old man has been crucified.

Does not Hebrews state this? Hebrews 7:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.