What is the non Catholic view of this?

[Daniel Stinson]

Yes, I just read your article in full.

Unlike mainline-Protestantism, the Confessional Lutherans don't claim not to be Catholic, just not Roman-Catholic per say.

Also, Confessional Lutherans consecrate the Eucharist, and our doctrine of Sacramental Union prominently proclaims the true presence or real presence of God in the LORD'S Supper.

In Confessional Lutheran congregations, only known members participate in close-communion.

If I visit from out-of-town, while on vacation let's say, it's my responsibility to address the pastor or one of the elders before partaking of Holy Communion. Otherwise, I would approach with St. Andrew's Cross, and receive a blessing, instead of the Eucharist.

A Wiki article I just read indicates the most common Christian denominations practicing some form of "real presence" have fallen victim to desecrated Sacrament. Lutheranism appears to also fall victim to desecrated Sacrament as well, though it's not something I've researched. Lutheranism views Baptism and the LORD'S Supper as an exorcism in and of itself, so we don't necessarily have a dedicated exorcists. Our pastor does perform house blessings, going through each room with specific Scripture and family prayer. I rather enjoyed the experience with my family as we dwell in a spiritually clean home.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_desecration

 

[Athanasias]

Yes, I just read your article in full.

Unlike mainline-Protestantism, the Confessional Lutherans don't claim not to be Catholic, just not Roman-Catholic per say.

Also, Confessional Lutherans consecrate the Eucharist, and our doctrine of Sacramental Union prominently proclaims the true presence or real presence of God in the LORD'S Supper.

In Confessional Lutheran congregations, only known members participate in close-communion.

If I visit from out-of-town, while on vacation let's say, it's my responsibility to address the pastor or one of the elders before partaking of Holy Communion. Otherwise, I would approach with St. Andrew's Cross, and receive a blessing, instead of the Eucharist.

A Wiki article I just read indicates the most common Christian denominations practicing some form of "real presence" have fallen victim to desecrated Sacrament. Lutheranism appears to also fall victim to desecrated Sacrament as well, though it's not something I've researched. Lutheranism views Baptism and the LORD'S Supper as an exorcism in and of itself, so we don't necessarily have a dedicated exorcists. Our pastor does perform house blessings, going through each room with specific Scripture and family prayer. I rather enjoyed the experience with my family as we dwell in a spiritually clean home.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_desecration

I have no doubt that we have much in common here and its really cool we do. I also have no doubt that God can and does work blessings and graces and even sometimes exorcisms, through many who are not formally united to the Catholic Church as God sees hearts. This is talked about in a document called Domini Iesu. And we should have things in common as the Lutheran faith came out of the Catholic Faith almost 500 years ago. Interesting article. Gets a few things wrong but also has some good stuff too like the 2008 incident. Wikli is not the best source for this stuff though. I rarely use wiki for anything because of its status and lack of scholarship and the fact that I can change stuff if I want to. This did not give any concrete examples of "Black Lutheran Service" but rather admitted to the unholy sacrifice of "Black Mass" a desecration of the holy sacrifice of Mass for Catholics.

You really have to go find some former High Echelon Satanist or ex Satanical priest to see these things in deeper context to understand what I mean.This is not common knowledge that most scholarship recognizes as satanist try to remain hidden so you have to study former Satanist the high echelon ones who will admit to things or know some FBI agents who busted cases like these to understand it. You can read some Exorcist like Fr. Gabriel Amorth, or study some demonologist like Adam Blai or read sources that were into and did practice these things and get better information. Again much of this is not common knowledge and satanist love to keep it that way. I have heard some good stuff from one priest(Fr Pacwa) who use to council those who got out of satanic cults and what they practiced. Some freaky stuff involving the mass, and St. Michael. Powerful Evidence! I recommend a few sources Betty Brennan was a former High echelon Satanist turned Catholic who knows firsthand the power of authentic Satanism and the grave desecration done to the blessed Sacrament and the perversion of the Catholic doctrines done by Satanist.

There are so many things that can be addressed here but they would make for a better ecumenical dialog such what it means to truly be "Catholic" etc and what real presence means etc. Catholics too perform a minor exorcisms at baptism but our views their are slightly different. I know talking with the wife of a LCMS Pastor that they admit (at least that synod of confessional Lutherans) that they do not have a very deep understanding of exorcism or such things and she admitted to me in the store in front of her Pastor husband that that is why when the Lutheran boy(baptized Lutheran) became possessed and was taken to St. Louis in 1949 after failed attempts by Lutheran ministers to exorcise the boy(whom she told me she knew personally) had to take him to the Catholic priest at SLU. Later the boy would convert to Catholicism after the exorcism was done.

As I Lutheran brother I do not expect you to understand or trust in the authority of the Church and the power of her priesthood via the intercession of the Church and apostolic succession but I can tell you this, the demons sure know it and more then believe in it. Demons are are very legalistic and that is why in some cases they are harder to get rid of in infestations unless the exorcist knows the legal right they have to the house or person. They can sense spiritual things and know things and know hidden things and even know when a priest has not gotten permission to do an exorcism from the Bishop and has tried to do one anyway. Priest are not protected by the intercession of the Church at that point like the exorcist is who wields that succession and permission. This has caused extreme physical harm in the past to some priest who have tried this. Fr. Amorth gives examples of this in his book and exorcist tells his story.

I guess my point would be I come across this stuff on a semi regular basis working where I do. It seems to me ajnd to many when they think about it that the evidence is all there from a negative point of view for the truth of the God given Catholic Doctrines such as the Sacrifice of Mass, and Prayers to Mary and veneration to her immaculate conception, purgatory, ie the rosary and prayers to saint such as St. Michael, and St. John Paul II. St. Benedict etc. These intercessory prayers are very efficacious for battling demons especially the prayers to Mary the Queen of the angels because demons are humiliated by her and know she is second only to her Son Christ. Exorcist have talked over and over again on how the rosary is poison to Demons and that is why they are used in exorcism cases often as well as the litany of the saints. Each Hail Mary is like a hammer on a demons head. Eucharistic adoration also make demons uncomfortable and the sacrament of confession demons hate according to the saints, mystics and exorcist I have read. I come personally across alot of protestants(as a matter of fact most of the ones that come into my store asking for a priest for prayers of deliverance are protestant I would say about 85% are from various denominations including confessional Lutherans and African Methodist Episcopal all of whom supposedly retain a form of the real presence and Bishopric in some form or another but for some reason this ain't working for them). I had 9 people between July and September Last year come in and get the number to the Archdiocese Deliverance ministry. I had one case of extremely bad demonic infestation in house in the rural mo area behind a body of water that was so bad that even a Eastern Orthodox Priest(who did a 3 hours impromptue house exorcism on it freaked out and left and later contacted the Archdiocese of St. Louis for their exorcist) I personally was involved in that one.

You can try to rationalize it away all you want. But it seems to many who when put in those situations(like the people I meet and those I have read about) that there is a real evidence for the truth of these Catholic Doctrines. Lutherans do hold to a form of real presence but I have never heard of any Eucharistic miracles form any Lutherans that demonstrates thier belief and power to make Christ truly present in the consecration(a few Lutheran churches may be an exception here as some in parts outside of the USA have realize the need for apostolic authority and have sought and received valid Holy Orders ie apostolic succession from EO Bishops). There is a thread here that also demonstrates this. I searched for these and still have not found any yet there are hundreds of documented cases with pictures testimonies and scientific analysis for the Catholic ones. This speaks volumes to me and others about Christ truth. Not to mention what former High Echelon Satanist, demonologist, and exorcist have talked about in regard to these issues. At any rate have a blessed night.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

One thing that we did not consider up to this point is numbers. There are way more Catholic Churches, numerically, in most areas, so if 50 Churches get hit, a good portion of them would be Catholic. The last series of thefts that I posted about earlier, it was the Lutheran and Catholic Churches that were being left open 24/7. While the vessels and the elements were locked up, they were still pretty easy pickings. Virtually all Churches are now locked up every evening, and it has been a long time since any Churches have been robbed.

Two winters ago, someone entered our Church during service and went through coat pockets until he found a set of keys, then took a members car on a lengthy joy-ride. It was found burnt out some days later.

 

[BobRyan]

One thing that we did not consider up to this point is numbers. There are way more Catholic Churches, numerically, in most areas, so if 50 Churches get hit, a good portion of them would be Catholic. The last series of thefts that I posted about earlier, it was the Lutheran and Catholic Churches that were being left open 24/7. While the vessels and the elements were locked up, they were still pretty easy pickings. Virtually all Churches are now locked up every evening, and it has been a long time since any Churches have been robbed.

Two winters ago, someone entered our Church during service and went through coat pockets until he found a set of keys, then took a members car on a lengthy joy-ride. It was found burnt out some days later.

Someone broke into the church I attended a number of years ago and stole sound equipment etc... and they did it more than once. But the church put increasingly more protection around the way it stored such things and the security system for the side doors etc. We did not think this proved that we have the right doctrine - just that some bad people were in the area.

We always thought that the test of what is right vs wrong is - the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Daniel Stinson]

◄ Matthew 17 ►
English Standard Version
Jesus Heals a Boy with a Demon

14And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, 15said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18And Jesus rebuked the demon,band itc came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly.d 19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”20He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”e

 

[BobRyan]

No doubt that sort of thing is Bible approved.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

◄ Mark 9 ►
English Standard Version
Jesus Heals a Boy with an Unclean Spirit

14And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd around them, and scribes arguing with them. 15And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed and ran up to him and greeted him. 16And he asked them, “What are you arguing about with them?” 17And someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute.18And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.” 19And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” 20And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21And Jesus asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” 23And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”24Immediately the father of the child cried outd and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it,“You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”26And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead.” 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?” 29And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.”e

 

[Daniel Stinson]

◄ Luke 9 ►
English Standard Version
Jesus Heals a Boy with an Unclean Spirit

37On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. 38And behold, a man from the crowd cried out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out. It convulses him so that he foams at the mouth, and shatters him, and will hardly leave him. 40And I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.” 41Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.”42While he was coming, the demon threw him to the ground and convulsed him. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit and healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. 43And all were astonished at the majesty of God.

 

[Athanasias]

One thing that we did not consider up to this point is numbers. There are way more Catholic Churches, numerically, in most areas, so if 50 Churches get hit, a good portion of them would be Catholic. The last series of thefts that I posted about earlier, it was the Lutheran and Catholic Churches that were being left open 24/7. While the vessels and the elements were locked up, they were still pretty easy pickings. Virtually all Churches are now locked up every evening, and it has been a long time since any Churches have been robbed.

Two winters ago, someone entered our Church during service and went through coat pockets until he found a set of keys, then took a members car on a lengthy joy-ride. It was found burnt out some days later.

Yeah I feel your pain. That happened around here too in the city. Its a shame you used to be able to have Churches open24/7 and now even the adoration chapels(most of them) are just a few hours open unfortunately.

 

[Albion]

Lutherans do hold to a form of real presence but I have never heard of any Eucharistic miracles form any Lutherans that demonstrates thier belief and power to make Christ truly present in the consecration

That's often said to be the way it is because Lutherans don't need magic shows IN ORDER TO BELIEVE. They have the word of God to rely upon and are well known for trusting in the sufficiency and authority of the Scriptures.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Yet Eucharistic miracles do happen, I am living proof.

 

[Athanasias]

Yet Eucharistic miracles do happen, I am living proof.

any like these ?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

any like these ?

Not that I know of. The discoloration pattern though does look like fusarium, a mold that is a known carcinogen. Only way to know for sure would be to culture the particular host on the proper media. If nothing grows, you can rule out this reddish pink mold. (I'm pragmatic ).

 

[Athanasias]

Not that I know of. The discoloration pattern though does look like fusarium, a mold that is a known carcinogen. Only way to know for sure would be to culture the particular host on the proper media. If nothing grows, you can rule out this reddish pink mold. (I'm pragmatic ).

Good point my friend. I own the whole video to this and show it to classes. They actually bring that point up in the whole video too. If you watch its entirety they have done scientific test on the host and crust samples from a doctor, a blood specialist named Dr. Roman Chucky who confirms its actual human blood oozing from the consecrated host and it also has a thick vein in it and he He rules out that possibility of fusarium. They interview him in the video later. To us this and the many other Eucharistic miracles that have been tested on by science are great and powerful evidence of the doctrine of transubstantiation or Christ real presence and of course Satanist know this too.

This is also a very powerful one. This host has also been tested sceinfically by Dr's. The blood coagulated into 5 pellets and when one pellet is weighed it weighed the same as if all 5 were weighted. The host turned to "Visible" flesh and has been found to be heart muscle(Sacred Heart of Jesus) preserved for over 1000 years without any preservatives to keep it fresh.

Here is some info on it:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

God is talking are we listening.

 

[hedrick]

Athanasias, I trust you're aware that Protestant Pentecostals are at least as active in casting out demons as Catholics. I don't suggest that as proof of their theology.

 

[Athanasias]

Athanasias, I trust you're aware that Protestant Pentecostals are at least as active in casting out demons as Catholics. I don't suggest that as proof of their theology.

Yeah as i have stated earlier we teach that can happen as does the gospels. God does not shrink from showering graces or blessings on protestants as he sees the heart and is not limited to his own ordinary means. I am not saying that the fact that we do exorcisms makes us true heck I know mormons who have claimed to have done exorcisms and they are not even Christian. In fact the exorcist I know makes usr of the charismatics in his ministry also as they have extraordinary spiritual charisms or gifts of the Holy Spirit that can aid in deliverence ministry.

My point is the many miracles tested by science and witnessed by many and negative evidence from satanism and exorcism cases point toward true doctrine in the Catholic faith. its like finger print evidence from God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thomas needed physical proof that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead; many others did not, but believed on faith. Might it be that Catholics need more physical proof than the Churches which hold to the Solas?

 

[Albion]

My point is the many miracles tested by science and witnessed by many and negative evidence from satanism and exorcism cases point toward true doctrine in the Catholic faith. its like finger print evidence from God.

The clarification is worthwhile, but you haven't proven that point in the least. At the most, what you've "proven" would be that some of the miracles are genuine, that's all.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 and Rev 13 (and 2Thess 2) says that the devil will be performing all sorts of signs and wonders as an Angel of light and his servants as Apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11.

So should we "test the spirits" 1 John 4... or just assume that they are all telling the truth?